Talk:Semele (Handel)

The balance between opera and oratorio
Hello everyone! Following a discussion over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera, we've added Semele to the oratorios template and changed the template on this page. There was some disagreement over there about whether Semele should be primarily categorized as an opera or as an oratorio, and I'd like to move that discussion over to here (seems more apropos).

I feel that there is a major divide in Handel's career in the late 1730: Italian-language Operas were his main focus before then, and English-language oratorios were his main focus afterwards. If it's in Italian and it was presented as an opera with famous Italian singers on a costumed stage in the first premiere, it's probably Italian Opera, and if it's in English with local English singers who weren't in costume at the pemiere, then it's probably English Oratorio. Of all the late works in the "Handel Operas" category here on WP, this is the only english-language one, and it was presented unstaged in the premiere. Many of Handel's oratorios have stage directions and can/do work just fine (artistically) as operas, but that doesn't mean that the ARE opera.

I suggest that we should do more research to make sure all the details about original performance and composition are clear but assuming that confirms what I've said above, this article remain with the handel oratorios template and the article can be re-written with a less POV opinion about how it really is an opera (Dean's quote is more-or-less taken out of context to support the POV that it is an opera) and more citations.

It's fair to also leave the article linked to the Handel's operas template and category, given that after Handel's lifetime, the piece has developed a significant performance tradition as opera, and that should be made clear as such in the article as well.

Thoughts?? Fred 14:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Having seen Semele on stage (and it works well as an opera) I don't think it's a real issue whether we regard it as an opera or not. From our perspective many different genres can be called opera. We should of course respect the composers' own designations of their works, but that is not the same thing as adopting their perspectives.


 * What is important is that Semele is a fine piece of work and deserves a good article. That's all IMO. --Kleinzach 15:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll clean this up when I get some time with the stuff out of Grove. It needs to sound more like an encyclopedia articles and less like an essay and, of course, to be neutral and properly referenced. I've tagged it as needing cleanup - which it does - partially to test some new script. Which worked! Moreschi Talk 15:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Semele is NOT an opera. Händel did not call it an opera, and used a different musical style from what he used for his operas. This article blurrs that distinction and therefore conveys misinformation. Besides being poorly written.

208.87.248.162 (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Excerpt
The article never mentions the opera's most famous excerpt -- Jupiter's love song to Semele, "Wheree'r you walk", written very much in the "MESSIAH" style in spite of the secular subject.CharlesTheBold (talk) 15:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

move to Semele (Handel)
as per my project to unify the naming conventions amongs handel oratorios (discussed on WikiProject_Opera a little bit ago), I will move this article to "Semele (Handel)" early next week. Any objections? Fred 16:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

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