Talk:Semibankirschina

English name
Please, rename this article to <> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.21.43.85 (talk) 02:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

BLP problem
Perhaps this is an OK source. However, this is not proper summary of the source because it misrepresents Edward Topol as a supporter of an anti-Jewish conspiracy theory. He criticized oligarchs and wrote a letter demanding they should share a part of their wealth with people. This is all he did. My very best wishes (talk) 16:33, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Because it's a link to an interview that happened 15 years later, not the original article which was unavailable at the time I think. It is availble now, and it contains everything I mentioned and more (I just shortened it to basic points). Whether it's a conspiracy theory or not depends on whether one choses to believe Topol or not. AveTory (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Once again, based on this additional source and the previous one, there are two problems: (a) where does it mentioned "Semibankirschina"? (he was talking about Russian oligarch in general), and (b) it tells that Topol criticized Berezobsky and asked him to share a part of his wealth with people. This is not about "long Jewish surname". You made wrong summary of the source. Now, that another source is bad and should not be used anywhere. My very best wishes (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2018 (UTC)


 * No, he specifically mentioned the bankers who owned the political power in the country and wrote 4 surnames in a row that belonged to Semibankirshina. No-brainer to anyone who lived during the 1998 (including Western journalists in the links). "Jews in power vs. Russians" is a running theme of the whole article, from start to the last sentence. You are free not to admit it, but it's still there, I didn't put any words in his mouth. I think I made it clear. As for the second source, it was used as an illustration. AveTory (talk) 22:06, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No, he tells: "Открытое письмо Березовскому, Гусинскому, Смоленскому, Ходорковскому и остальным олигархам". Hence this is a letter addressed to all Russian oligarchs. And no, this is not a letter about "Jews vs. Russians". This is your interpretation of a primary source. You would need multiple secondary RS to describe writings by this author as antisemitic. But you will not find any. My very best wishes (talk) 22:58, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * First, I didn't say a word about Topol being an antisemit. Semibankirschina consisted primarily of Jews, that was/is an open secret. It did result in the growth of antisemitism in Russia, that was my - as well as Topol's and Luke Harding's - main point which you keep misinterpreting and changing to something of your own. Secondly, Topol and Berezovsky talked specifically about Berezovsky's group, "talented bankers" in power, "the main puppeteer" who manipulated Yeltsin - "Berezovsky, Gusinsky, Smolensky, Khodorkovsky and the rest". There was no other known collaboration of oligarchs that manipulated politics together. Lastly, since you keep ignoring facts, I just have to quote Topol's text here:


 * "Yeltsin, Kirienko, Fedorov, Stepashin. But the main puppeteer has a long Jewish surname - Berezovsko-Gusinsko-Smolensko-Khodorkovsky and so on. First time in 1000 years since Jews appeared in Russia we got the real power in this country. I'm asking you openly: how are you planning to use it?".
 * "-Of course, we see that financial power is in Jewish hands, but we never looked at it from the point of historical responsibility. -And never discussed it in your inner circle? -No. We saw how unproportional it was and tried to promote a financial oligarch of Russian ethnicity to power. But it turned unsuccessful".
 * "And how did it happen that all or almost all money in this country went into Jewish hands? Aren't there any talented Russian financiers?"
 * "-Of course, there are talented bankers among Russians as well. But will is the second major factor in this profession. Jews know how to lose and rise again. That's like our historical experience. But even the most talented Russians - no, they fail..."
 * "But if it really happened so that we got all the financial power, and the government consists of half-Jews such as Kirienko and Chubais, do you feel that you put our people at risk in case of Russia's collapse? Antisemitic pogroms may turn into a new Holocaust.
 * "Just give a billion or two each, do not be Jew-greedy (he uses the word "жидитесь" offensive for Jews) and help this nation during its bloody move from Communism to civilization... People you save will guard us and you from pogroms, and your mothers - your Jewish mothers - will say "mazal tov".
 * "Otherwise some Klimov will write a novel "Jewish power" about a Jewish genocide of Russian people".


 * The last quote is the last sentence that sums up the text. He and the quoted Berezovsky even make a distinction between Jewish and Russian oligarchs in the process. You are the one who need second sources, not me. AveTory (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Look, here is your latest edit. What's the problem? You take a primary source (a letter by a well known writer) and misinterpret it as something being primarily about "genocide of Russians by Jews" ("In his letter Topol expressed concern regarding the fates of ethnic Russians, comparing it to "the Jewish tragedy"). No, it was actually about rich people (oligarchs). If some of them were Jews is irrelevant, as your source [10] explains very clearly. The solution: please use secondary sources, and better in English. There are many on them on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * In addition, where this letter mentioned "Semibankirschina"? Once again, this is your own interpretation of a primary source. My very best wishes (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I already provided you with plenty of quotes. It's not about "some oligrahs being Jewish", it's about Jewish oligarchs. He even retells the whole Jewish history in the middle of the letter for obvious reasons. The Guardian link doesn't "prove" anything. It tells what the article tells - the rise of antisemitism because of the activity of the seven bankers: "And in a country where anti-semitism is still rife and openly expressed, nationalist rabble-rousers have made much of the fact that of the seven oligarchs who controlled 50% of Russia's economy during the 1990s, six were Jewish". Whatever were their reasons. Stop acting like it's your personal blog where you can delete any information you want. I provided sources to all my words, and no Wikipedia rule forbids me using Russian sources.
 * And I already wrote regarding Semibankirshina in two previous posts, I'm not repeating myself. AveTory (talk) 18:00, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Let's try to avoid any heated conversations. Here is key point: the letter by Topol does not even mention word "Semibankirschina". This is your own interpretation of a primary source Agree? My very best wishes (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

WP:SYN
In addition, where this source tells about "Semibankirschina"? Yes, it tells about Russian oligarchs, but that content belongs either to their BLP pages or to page Corruption in Russia, not to this page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:54, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, the source is exactly about seven bankers: "At the end of 1994 the seven bankers had hatched a plan to lend the government billions of dollars..." and then describes those bankers in detail, what they were doing to the country and how the West reacted to it. Contains a lot of detailed information which could used in the article, perfectly accurate. AveTory (talk) 23:13, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, it tells about "Semibankirschina" and it tells that US government supported Yeltsin's administration, but does not tell that USA supported "Semibankirschina". The economic "chaos", which occur after the election of Yealtsin and was "welcomed" by the USA (according to the source) was not Semibankirschina. My very best wishes (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * An additional problem with content you included is lack of logic. It blames the West for economic troubles in Russia because ... it provided big loans to Yeltsin administration. It also talks about USA taking over the "Caspian oil", but it was the state of Azerbaijan who took possession of this oil as a matter of fact. Yes, it sold the oil to the West, but this is not really related to Semibankirschina. My very best wishes (talk) 15:49, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Overall, this book tells an interesting story about the subject, and it can be reflected on the page, but the story is not about USA. One clear inconsistency with the page: this book calls Vagit Alekperov one of the "seven". My very best wishes (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't remember the content of the whole chapter, I'll need time to re-read it to answer. AveTory (talk) 22:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It's pretty much on-topic from what I read. It mentions Caspian oil in regards of "replacing Russia's historic control". And he links Semibankirshina to the chaos in Russian economics which allowed it. But it's a broader topic that needs deeper research. I'll just leave the source as an additional link to the rest of the paragraph (Semibankirshina taking places in Russian government and influencing Russian economics). AveTory (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

In what way was Berezovsky a banker?
I don't see that Berezovsky was a banker. Whereas six of the seven oligarchs owned banks, Berezovsky did not. Therefore I think we should call them oligarchs in the body text, or place the term "seven bankers" in quotation marks. GreyGoose (talk) 19:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * He did, the bank was called "Объединённый банк" (United Bank). Berezovsky was a co-founder and headed the board of directors from 1992 till 1996. It was known as "Berezovsky's purse" and was shut down by the Central Bank in 2003. (Central Bank sent United Bank on its last journey article by Kommersant, April 18, 2003 (in Russian)) It's just that Berezovsky ran many businesses and was mostly famous as an oil and media mogul, probably why the bank wasn't mentioned in the article.AveTory (talk) 22:23, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Here are some English-language sources that mention the United Bank: Russian tycoon expands empire and Russia in the 21st Century: The Prodigal Superpower AveTory (talk) 22:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Excellent, thanks for the quick and detailed response. I will remove the quotation marks that I had added. GreyGoose (talk) 04:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

A possible source I found
I ran into this researching something else and I just want to leave it here in case it ever proves useful: -- GreyGoose (talk) 06:58, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1997/03/03/222752/index.htm