Talk:Sengunthar/Archive 1

Kaikolas cannot be classifed by the Aryan Varna caste system
Kaikolars cannot be classified by the Aryan Varna caste system. This is similar to putting a Arab or Jew or African or Chinese into Kshatriya, Vysya, etc. The Aryan Varna caste system is only for Aryans. Kaikolans are tamilians.

Germans are ARYANS but how can these non-German speaking Indians and Pakis claim they are Aryans?

Which language group belong to ARYA VARNA CASTE SYSTEM? Arabic or Bengali?

Only Sonia Gandhi,not her children is now qualified to be ARYAN in India and not others.

References for Kaikolar/Sengunthar Devadasis
by Donald F Lach, Edwin J Van Kley - History - 1998 - 662 pages'' Snippet view:: Clearly describes the status of Kaikolars.
 * ''Asia in the Making of Europe: A Century of Advance. Book 2, South Asia - Page 1032


 * Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith  Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about the Kaikolar Devadasis and the Brahmin men.


 * Madras Gazetteer recognized by the Government of India: providing google link. follow link for full book. ,

The Kaikolars are described in great detail in the following research articles and their identity has been clearly proven as the same terinja-Kaikolar Padai of the Chola empire. There is absolutely no question of any ambiguity. You can only deny in vain. Pathetic.

(proves that kaikolan musicians = devadasis) snippet view: link 2: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3648(1972)34%3A4%3C331%3ATESOI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2
 * The Erotic Sculptures of India Y. Krishan Artibus Asiae, Vol. 34, No. 4 (1972), pp. 331-343


 * Artisans in Vijayanagar Society, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, 417-444 (1985) 

This research article explains the blood relation between the Devadasis and the Kaikolar. ("Devaradiyar (dancing girls who have very close kinship ties with the Kaikkolar"


 * Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck

This research article explains in vivid detail, the way the Kaikkolas used their women to enjoy special privileges in the Vijayanagar empire. (Text Quoted from article: "At least one woman in every Kaikkola household was, according to age-old tradition dedicated to the temple as a devaradiyar or devadasi. The devaradiyar enjoyed special privileges in the days of the Vijayanagar empire and were the only women permitted a direct audience with the king". link2:


 * ''Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck,

This research article (along with references to an inscription) describes how a devaradiyar or devadasi won special privileges for the Kaikkolas from the king Deva Raya II (A.D 1433).

snippet view: link2:


 * Some Enquiries into the Condition of Weavers in Medieval South India, Indian Historical Review, Vol. VI, Nos. 1 and 2


 * This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.

"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411

Pallava are Brahmin
Pallavas are brahmins. They have made many inscriptions claiming that they are are brahmins of Bharadvaja gotra. Hence Pallavas are not considered as tamil kings.

Then what happened to the decendants of the Pallava kings in Tamil Nadu?

Pallavas never claimed as brahmans at the start of their power. Later only some Pallavas left some inscriptions as they belonged to Bharadwaja Gothra.

The early Pallavas belonged to Nanthi gothra. Pallavas used NANTHI (BULL) their emblem. Kaikolans are still belong to NANTHI GOTHRA.

70.49.117.55 04:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Sengunthar CN Annadurai is the founder of DMK
CN Annadurai is the founder of DMK and he is a kaikolan from Kanchipuram. This is a well known fact.

== Bharathidasan a great poet who supported DMK is a Sengunthar. What about the Indian Communists who too do not support CASTE system? What is the purpose of the connection of the old caste system here?==

Sengunthars fought against the aryan Varna caste system
Read the works of CN Annadurai and Bharathidasan. Both of them fought against the Aryan Varna caste system.

Joti Basu too fight the Aryan Varna Caste system. 70.49.117.55 04:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

'''The great E M S Nampudripad who was a Brahman and high caste became a communist and created a new chapter against the CASTE system. There is no ARYAN in in India now. All the Indians are a MIXED tribes now. That was the thinking behind C N ANNADURAI or BHARATHIDASAN.'''

Is this Wekipedia advocate to follow a CASTE based system for INDIANS?

Notable persons
=='''Why cannot others remember THILLAYADI VALLIYAMMA who was the first dead in the war of Mahathma Gandhi in S/Africa? Mahathma Gandhi adopted the spinning wheel of the weavers on the flag of congress party because the Kai Kola weavers who were the people prepared to sacrifice their lives for the freedom of India. No other castes came forward to die for the HINDU country except the Kai Kola =Kshatria Kula of Pallava origin who are the MODLEYs of S/Africa.Tamil Nadu government built a state building at CHENNAI in remembarance of this brave woman'''==

'''Majority Kai Kolar still support CONGRESS and not DMK which is the CHILD of the Justice party and the Justice Party was supporting British rule.

'''DMK was founded by Sengunthar CN Annadurai of Kanchipuram. That is a sign of a Warrior by birth.'''

Tamil Rulers
'''Tamils are still unable to find their own history and trust in story telling of the WHITE fellows. Tamils lost their rule for more than 1000 years. Tamils now tell all the people who ruled them were TAMILS except British.'''

TAMILS tells that MOOVENTHAR were Chera, Chola and Pandia and not telling Pallava were their kings. But history tells PALLAVAS ruled Tamil country for more than nine centuries. How are these Tamils so stupid in hiding their own history?

Further TAMIL authors tells CHERA, CHOLA, and PANDIA were TAMILS. I asked many people who bark much about Tamil and still they do not know the TAMIL MEANING of the words= CHERA, CHOLA or PANDIA. If these three words are from TAMIL language, they must carry meanings in TAMIL but, Alas, Tamil Pandits have no answer. Now some TAMILS who are ENGLISH educated (Not Tamil educated) try to tell the history of TAMIL country which was ruled by non-Tamil rulers for thousands of years.

What was the situation of S/India in 500 BC or 2AD? Tamil country was under occupation by a group called KHALABRAS for three centuries and it is called the DARK period of TAMIL history. Who were these KHALABRAS? No one knows them but some opine as some African tribes came to South India through the coast of Malabar and occupied Tamil country. SAI BABA and his HAIR of NEGROID origin is a popular example. In Tamil country too any one can witness the same NEGROID features among Tamils.

PALLAVA rulers who started their rule in Andhra and later extended to Tamil country after chasing these KHALABRAS. I hope the KALLAN caste must be the product of the KHALABRAS. The Sangam period Tamil Race was completly destroyed and assimilated with new comers in the early 3AD.

Tamil language has many problems in identifying others words. Tamils changed HAMILTON to BARBER. Governor HAMILTON built a bridge and named it as Hamilton Bridge but Tamils changed it to AMBATTAN BRIDGE and later they anglised as BARBERS BRIDGE. This is an example how did the Tamil language created Historical mischief. Read R.B. Sethu Pillai's "ALAYUM KADALUM". This is a recent event after the British. Under these circumstances, how can the Tamils identify anything of PALLAVA rulers who created the present day lagacies of TAMIL CULTURE? The same way Tamils now try to give meaning to KAI KOLAR. Pallavas used PALI =Prakrit at first and later Sanskrit and Grantha which is still used by TAMIL BRAHMANS. Tamil Kai Kola came from PALI KHAI KULA =KShatria KULA and not like the stories like Kai=hand and Kol= Shuttle. KULAM or GOTHRA is originated from PALI or SANSKRIT. many try to tell that KOL is SHUTTLE in Tamil. This is a fun of all times. KOL like COAL = Stick. Khai is a Pali word for Kshatria and it became KAI in Tamil. TAMIL is an old language but a language with inadequacies to describe words from other languages.

DANCING is part of HINDU tradition. Hindu god SHIVA is called NADA RAJA(N)=KING of DANCES in Tamil. Why? Pallavas were strong HINDUS as their descendants Kai Kolar. RANGA PATAKA=Jewel of Dancers was the name of the Queen of Nandhi Varman who was a Pallava King.

Brits and the Christian missionaries know this matters better than Tamil people but what is their mission in India? Both Muslims and Christians are still try to destroy the Hindu Basics in India through many means. In the South India, Brits failed to create Hindu-Muslim devide like in North but they created some baseless devide between Hindu religion and Tamils by creating Arya -Dravida stories. Christian missionaries are working so hard to destroy HINDU traditions like the MUSLIM invaders. They bark against DANCING and try to degrade the HINDU DANCING traditions even today in India but these CHRISTIAN missionaries never open their mouth against the DANCING of CHRISTIANS in the West or Americas. The converted population of Christians and muslims in India never question the dancing of Christians or Arabs. That is why they feed the local population with venom against HINDU traditions of DANCING. That is why they created stories joining DANCING and PROSTITUTION. Holy Dancing traditions of Hindus reduced to prostitution after the Muslim and British invasion. Both parties are anti-Hindu.

How many women from the Kai Kolar in the CINEMA now?

The so called Dravida Race was destroyed long... long.. ago. SANGAM which is a barrowed word from PALI=Prakrit language, period Tamil literature had no news about the date or time of writting. Why? Tamils did not followed any CALENDARS on those days. Hindu Calendar became a tradition after the PALLAVA rule. Present day TAMIL language has more than half of the words originated from PALI and SANSKRIT.

To fix the date of SILAPATHIKARAM, you need the PALI TEXT=Maha Vamsa of Sri Lanka and nothing available in India now. Even the Ashoka Pillars of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan were identified as ASHOKA pillars after the translation of the same PALI text of Sri Lanka by Germans in the late 1920s. Check the Royal Asiatic journals for more information about ASHOKA pillars. The inscriptions on those pillars had no words of ASHOKA but mention only a KING PRIYADARSHANA. Historians found ASHOKA and PRIDARSHANA were same after the translation of Sri Lankan MAHA VAMSA written in PALI language which was used by ASHOKA empire.

I tell these facts to confirm the Kai Kolar = Khai Kula people are the decendants of the PALLAVA = MUDALI.

Without knowing anything of the past, some try to tell history according to the current conditions of the Kai Kola people. -RANGA-


 * Most of the articles quote Indian and Tamil authors only. As for foreign authors, they are very accurate about the Kaikolar. For example, have you read Mattison Mines: Warrior Merchants? Are you telling me he does not know anything about Kaikolar? You're just saying this as you're a Kaikolar and I can understand that.

'''Yes. Whiteman cried and created stories that Pallavas are of Iranian origin without knowing any basics of Indian traditions or history. Mattison too the same and he never consulted any Kai Kolar. Even the Tamilised Kai kolars too dont understand the meaning of the word KAIKOLA which is a Tamilised or Telugised PALI word=KHAI KULA =Kshatria Kula. Now you guys donot know anything about PALI language or its impact on other Indian languages. For example Tamil Brahmans only use the word IYER. Do you know how and why?'''

HERE is the list of conjeevaram mudaliars or senguntha mudaliars who fought in srlanka captured and controlled the places near jaffna.

Pallavan Kanchi (Veliyoor) Kalingarayan Kanchi (Kattodai) Maniparman Kanchi (Puththoor) Mannadukondamuthali Kanchi (Irupalai) Veeranarayanan Kanchi (Mathakal) Sethirayan Kanchi (Mathakal) Seyarasasekaramuthali Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Vittathevan Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Ulagukavalan Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Punniyapooban Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Vinayagapooban Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Thaninayagamuthali Seyyar (Neduntheevu).

Arumugam Kottimudaliar
Arumugam Kottimudaliar - To get your name here you should have achieved something in your life. I believe you have a long way to go. There are places where you can post your resume..:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redlance (talk • contribs) 07:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe there are facts about many communities Jews, Muslims, Christians but if the community feels it's derogatory it's best left ignored and not dragged into public, digging up history only to malign a community is not going to benefit anyone and I trust Wiki would continue to serve in the best interests of various communities.

I could have as well gone and started restoring or editing but I feel we need to have permanent resolution. This can only be achieved with help of protection of the pages as well as the admins understand the material presented here so that there would not be any need in future to convince new admins. I'm looking forward for an early resolution Redlance (talk) 05:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

To restore sanity and stop edit warring
I have gone through the entire history of edit warring. Originally the page was a mirror of http://sengunthamithiran.com/ABOUTUS.HTM page. This information can be considered authentic.

I propose to all concerned, including the WIKI admins, let this page http://sengunthamithiran.com/ABOUTUS.HTM be the source of information of Wiki:Sengunthar. As this page represents the community, Sengunthars and it does not in any way offend the sentiments of other communities or people.

Hope this will stop all warring and restore the page to the original stuff.Redlance (talk) 06:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)