Talk:Seoul/Archive 3

POV
User Lakshmix made a series of POV edits to the lead, alongside the "KOREA IS BEST BEST BEST"-nationalism that guides far too many Korea-topics. To balance a number of highly positive (and relevant) rankings about Seould, I added a comment on the ranking of quality of living. As Seoul wasn't among the best in the world in this particular category, it was removed without any explanation and another battery of "KOREA IS BEST BEST BEST" with little relevance was added. As has been discussed under the article South Korea, an article can still be heavily biased and POV despite having sources to back up claims. For far too many Korea-related topics, some users add eveything that is positive and keep anything even slightly negative out. This is an obvious violation of WP:POV even if it is done with sources. Wikipedia articles should be balanced and informative, we're not hear to work for the tourist board of any city or country.JdeJ (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lakshmix's edit may not be neutral, but your edit is also hardly viewed as neutral. Besides, since his edit is not vandalism, your intention of attacking him "vandalism" is doubtful. You must present each case to improve the article like KieferFL did to Talk:South Korea.--Caspian blue 23:00, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you perceived my edit not to be neutral, would you please elaborate on the reasons. Lakshmix himself wrote that my version was NPOV and I don't see anything POV in it. Even with it, the article remains full of qualifiers about why Seoul is the "best" city in many fields. I also note he has not contributed on the talk page. But as for the suggestions for improvement, I suggest removing most of these rankings and claims whether a city (any city) is the best in the world, best in Asia, best in Europe etc. They don't add much and too many of them (and this article is full of them) only makes the article POV and peacocky, even if done with sources.JdeJ (talk) 09:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all, your accusatory tone does not help you to gain "consensus" from your disputers or editors who has been editing this article. Besides, I don't see why your edit regarding List of cities by quality of living would be addressed in the intro. If you think the article has a great problem, all you've had to do is to prevent "examples" and desirable changes" like has done to South Korea, not just shouting "This article is full of POV".--Caspian blue 19:35, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, I have quite clearly stated precisely what I perceive the problem with the article to be, as is clear for everyone to read. If CaspianBlue doesn't think that the ranking of quality of living should be addressed in the intro, perhaps he would like to elaborate on why it's so important to have the ranking of information exchange in the intro? Why the ranking for cultural exchange? I would think that the average reather would find the quality of living in a city at least as relevant as the information exchange or the cultural exchange in the same city. Luckily enough, Sennen goroshi has taken the time to improve the article.JdeJ (talk) 20:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * , good practice of retracting this outrageous personal attacks and bad faith. You're the one who wants to change the article, so precise rationales for your change would be presented here to people. You still fail to convince me that the minor economic fact should be mentioned in the intro. That may be more fit to economic section, not intro. Your rhetoric tone and personal attacks would only cause unnecessary conflicts.--Caspian blue 20:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought my question was rather straightforward: Why would the ranking for information exchange, cultural exchange or other rankings in the intro be more important than the ranking for quality of living? As for rhetorics and personal attacks, I can only agree with you and I recommend you to keep the same things in mind yourself.JdeJ (talk) 08:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems like it have escaped CaspianBlue's attention, but Sennen goroshi and myself have been very active on this talk page trying to argue our case, while the user(s) reverting us has not participated at all. Still CaspianBlue continues to accuse us of not arguing our case. Personally, I find that rather strange.JdeJ (talk) 09:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you do treat people with respect, you'd be treated as such. Why do you think that the ranking about quality of living per city is more important than those of cultural exchanges, informition exchange? That should be your answer first since you're the one insisting to add it to the intro. You may think about that why people are favorable toward KieferFL's bold edits unlike you and Sennen groshi's. (FYI, I've supported KieferFL's cleanup).--Caspian blue 09:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No offense intended, but could you please put that into understandable English? I honestly don't understand what you mean in your second sentence above. If you meant to ask why I think quality of living is more important than cultural exchange, then the answer is that I did not removed cultural exchange, I merely added quality of living and it was swiftly removed. And you still haven't answered my question despite me repeting it several times. So it's all fine for you to demand that I explain my edits (which I gladly do) but then you should show the same courtesy as well. Just shying away from it, saying that I have to explain everything over and over again is not proper conduct. I repeat that your concerns as a moderator seems to be more towards Korean nationalism than towards improving Wikipedia. While I have tried several times to explain my edits, all you have done is to complain without making any constructive imput at all, not even when you're explicitly asked to provide some. You are quite simply not fit to be a moderator here if that is the way you behave. JdeJ (talk) 09:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My role here is not a moderator, because I honestly feel annoyed at your repetitive usage of "KOREA IS BEST BEST BEST". I am very curious as to why many people have kept coming to complain about how biased the article of South Korea with similar tone with you after the article was protected. Also except a few, people just come by and say "oh, biased, biased, biased" then never come back to actually improve the article. As for the ranking that you inserted to the article, I can't find such entry from articles of other cities and think "minor fact" of economy, so should be more fit to economy section.--Caspian blue 10:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for chaning your previous post, I now understand what you meant. And you're free to feel annoyed at whatever you want, but not to let that influece your moderating. However, I do apologise if my comment caused offense, it was not my intention, I just meant to summarise but I see your point. You will also have noticed that I used that phrase in my first edit on this page and haven't repeated it since, nor do I intend to. I agree with you, just saying that something is biased is not very helpful but I have explained in some detail what I perceive the problem to be, both here and at South Korea . You will also note that I'm involved in working towards a compromise on this article here below.JdeJ (talk) 10:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Template:Seoul weatherbox
Why does this template keep getting removed from the article? It's a standard template that is used on most major city articles. If someone explained their reason for removing it then that would be fine, but just undoing it without explanation is not helpful. --Joowwww (talk) 13:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This is not a repository of gallery
I don't know why various IP and new users including constantly and persistently add "duplicate images" to the article which is filled with too many images already. I once cut out the gallery section several weeks ago since Commons has the dedicated page, and many of images are duplicated. However, it was restored by IP and new users, and the section takes 1/4 of the article, that is out of MoS as well. Moreover, the article in a poor status is a good example of what editors should not do. WP:OWN for images and the article are also concerning. Moreover, 112.148.104.47 why you're repeatedly deleting my contribution of paraphasing and rewording from ugly lists? Using lists should be minimal to make the article more encyclopedic. Please "DISCUSS" when your edit is contested instead of blindly and silently reverting. Thanks.--Caspian blue 18:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For 5 days, none has not respond to this discussion thread, so I removed the heavy gallery. Use Seoul instead. Seems like User:Ziggymaster is coming back to push his extreme POV to not only the article of South Korea but also here.--Caspian blue 17:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Note
Mascot of Seoul City is missing. It's the Haetae. But I can't add it b/c I can't edit the thing - it's too complicated for me. -- Exec. Tassadar  ( comments,  contribs ) 07:43, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Area???
Can anybody tell me what the godforsaken definitive area of Seoul is?!! For God's sake, the article says both 605.25km 2  and 605.39km  2. The Seoul city home page's stats puts it at 605.40km 2. What the |-| € 1_ 1_ is the area??? -- Exec. Tassadar  ( comments,  contribs ) 08:21, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Questioning of Living Standard Comparison
In the introduction of this article, it says:

"With a GDP per capita of $32,171 in 2008, Seoul has a living standard comparable to France and Italy."

I find it odd that the living standard of Seoul, a city, is compared to countries like France and Italy. Shouldn't the comparison be on a city-to-city level?

Also, I think the rankings and dates should be updated. Why insist on the higher ranking from 2007? It should at least be updated to 2008 or 2009.

"Seoul was Asia's most expensive city to live in 2007, and the third most expensive city worldwide."

Seoul is not one of Asia's most expensive cities any more. It is now ranked outside of the top 10, isn't it?--Sir Edgar (talk) 02:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You make an excellent point about the erroneous comparison. I have deleted that sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 03:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Nationalistic edits by Gardenfive
Gardenfive (which is the name of a commercial building near my apartment in southeastern Seoul) is making disruptive edits of a nationalistic nature. Specifically, he is inserting unnecessary comparisons of SK with other countries ("ranked ahead of Italy and Japan" type comments) - the type of stuff that many of us have worked months to overcome. He is also deleting sourced material, claiming that there is a consensus when there is not. I suspect that Gardenfive is a sock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 05:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Nationalistic edits by Comfylaptop
Gardenfive was banned, but now our friendly sockpuppet is back. He is disrupting several pages by deleting sourced material and adding nationalistic rubbish about "landmark" buildings and "leading" businesses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 06:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, he appears to be one of these "Korea is best" people. What is the process for instituting a ban / block? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.5.251.117 (talk) 08:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Judging by the tone and writing style, Comfylaptop is a sockpuppet of banned user Tnaniua. I hope they can shut him/her down before he/she causes too much damage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.5.251.117 (talk) 08:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

changes
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seoul&diff=260164876&oldid=260153988

I hope everyone can agree that the article needed changes, I have removed unsourced information, leading/POV terms and items that were not notable.

Sennen goroshi (talk) 12:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Good changes, thanks for taking the time to do them. The points you removed were either unsourced or not very relevant, some were neither.JdeJ (talk) 12:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That is just great, I make an edit trying hard to be as neutral as possible, nothing negative/nothing positive - just notable and neutral facts - and some wonderful editor reverts me with the summary "you are Japanese blah blah blah" I wish people would concentrate on the edits and the articles, instead of the editors. Sennen goroshi (talk) 13:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Also in the introduction why has the term "global city" been removed and replaced with only a quality of life ranking? Major cities such as Paris or Chicago include the definition of "global cities" in their introduction and Toronto includes both "global city" and "quality of life". I definetly think this should be included.124.188.214.190 (talk) 09:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * PS Fair enough, I kept in the part about Seoul being a global city. Please sign your contributions.JdeJ (talk) 08:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Some good changes have been made, however I think that perhaps too much may have been removed in some sections that leads to ambiguity. For example; In the shopping section why has the word "top" been taken out of this sentence? "Myeongdong is a shopping and entertainment area in downtown Seoul which contains some of the city's top stores and fashion boutiques." The sentence would sound as though there is no stores or fashion boutiques in Seoul.

Also, what is the reason for the removal of "Seoul has a comprehensive subway network that interlinks every district of the city with one another and the surrounding area. With more than 8 million passengers a day, Seoul has one of the busiest subway systems in the world. The Seoul Metropolitan Subway has 10 lines which serves Seoul, Incheon, Gyeonggi province and northern Chungnam province." Please refer to Metro systems by annual passenger rides. There is nothing POV about defining the Seoul subway system as one of the world's busiest when in fact it is. 124.188.214.190 (talk) 09:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you make some good points. You're absolutely right about the Myeongdong, the sentence gives the wrong impression if we leave out "top". I would also agree with you regarding the metro system, I see no harm in bringing it back. Thanks for your input!JdeJ (talk) 10:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm glad to have made a more postive contribution. Just one note though, to nitpick, I believe you had previosuly included the quality of life ranking in Seoul's introduction for the interest of keeping this article more neutral. However, now with most of the peacock/nationalistic contents removed, I'm not quite sure if 87th in world is something notable enough to mention in the introduction. I've had a thorough look through and compared Seoul's introductory section with other major cities and by the looks of it, I don't think there is anything too overly positive about it, considering now much of POV has been removed. I hope we can further discuss for the removal of that phrase. Much appreciate your contribution to neutralize POV, Seoul's introduction almost began to look South Korea's.Pds0101 (talk) 12:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Somehow the transclusion of Template:Seoul weatherbox was removed during all the reverting back and forth, ending up with the template being deleted due to it being orphaned. If nobody has a problem with this I will reinstate it. --Joowwww (talk) 20:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please go ahead and do, I'm sure it was just a mistake by whoever it was that deleted it. I would think everybody agrees on the relevance of the weatherbox, almost all city-articles have one.JdeJ (talk) 20:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I was pleasantly suprised by the edits made since I removed lots of information, I assumed that it was merely going to be reverted back to its previous state, but it seems pretty good. Some of the edits I made were not due to POV, but also due to notability and lack of citations - if something is the largest or one of the largest - then a source would be nice, also if something is merely one of the largest then is it notable? I assume Tokyo, New York, London, etc all have one of the largest whatevers seeing as they are major cities - but the line for notability has to be drawn somewhere. But overall this is starting to look like a much better article - I consider the main issues now to be slight grammar changes, and lack of citations. Sennen goroshi (talk) 12:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just read this article and it seems to have a boastful tone. I've also noticed this on the "South Korea" page. Why are there so many listings and rankings comparing Seoul to other cities/countries? I note that none of the "rankings" are unfavourable. This article gives a strong impression of having been written by Koreans with an agenda of promoting their city. Personally, I agree with the guy above that the quality-of-life rating should be included - even if just to add some much-needed balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 04:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, quality of life is included in the article. There is a consensus among non-Korean editors that it deserves to be there, because it offers a broad, general impression of Seoul's living standard in comparison with other cities, a comparison that is not conveyed by the micro-facts that permeate the article ("ranks sixth for headquartering global businesses..." that kind of thing). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 00:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hanja in infobox
I would appreciate it if editors, mostly IP n00bs who don't read the NAME section, would quit adding the Chinese translation to the Hanja section of the infobox. AS noted in the article, the city's Hangul name has no direct Hanja equivalent, and the Chinese translations are exactly that: not native Korean. —— 华钢琴49 (TALK) 23:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Mistake?
Hello, I was reading the introductory information for the "Seoul" article and I ran across a strange sentence:

"The city is populated by kun Song which is a very wealthy man."

It looks like an amateur edit or at the very least someone's incomplete edit of the page. Just bringing it to your attention! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Campton5 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Demographics
There seems to be a mistake in the demographics section. Seoul's population is compared with New York the state and not the city. A more appropriate comparison would be with New York City. I haven't checked the other cities but I would think all of the cities mentioned in this reference should be checked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ushiroda80 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Religion
I would have thought that there would be more mention of prevailing religions, though maybe this is true for the SK article. In my experience, Christianity has been adopted in South Korea more than any Asian nation (excepting the Philippines.) I have no idea why this is true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tre.fire (talk • contribs) 04:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, maybe, but Korea isn't a very religious country compared to some others in Asia (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Turkey, Saudi Arabia...). Only about half of Koreans are at all religious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.240.61.2 (talk) 03:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * True, a lot of Koreans are officially 'Christian'- but not a lot of people tend to follow a religious life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.166.156.42 (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Gimjang (김장)
I have rescued the article Gimjang - it started like this, and was threatened with speedy deletion. I think I have added enough to alleviate that, and I plan to add more, and submit it as a "Did you know..." - I remember eating Kimchi in Korea, and realize what an important dish it is; I think that this is a worthy article.

Any help would, of course, be appreciated.

Cheers,  Chzz  ►  09:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that be a section for the Korea?78.181.73.88 (talk) 17:08, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The page is here  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.181.73.88 (talk) 17:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

"Seoul" Etymology
As far as I can tell, the citation linking the name "Seoul" to "Seorabeol" just links to yahoo travel. Is there a source for this?

222.109.146.71 (talk) 02:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Why is the only pronunciation given the Korean one? In English, to the best of my knowledge, the pronunciation in English is one syllable with a long O. See, for example, American Heritage and Webster's New World Collegiate (Wiley), both at www.yourdictionary.com.Kdammers (talk) 12:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. Could someone who knows how to insert phonetic symbols add the English pronunciation? DBlomgren (talk) 16:51, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Pictures

 * How come this article, has like-50000 pictures?  could possibly remove some of the unnecessary images-it would greatly improve this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.188.88.152 (talk) 00:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, too many pictures. A a good article should never have this many images. Pds0101 (talk) 08:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Removing two images & further discussion is welcomed. --Hongmt (talk) 16:46, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Deleted the following lines
Tried to rewrite the sentence, but the lines seem to be "advertising" the shopping mall.

"One of the newest shopping malls in Seoul is Times Square, which also features a CGV Starium Cinema with the world's largest cinema screen as certified by Guinness World Records. "

--Hongmt (talk) 17:03, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Seoul is "Metropolitan Government" not "Special City"
Please read Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea and discuss this. ― Yes0song 09:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Street photo


It may not be of much use, but this is a picture I took in Seoul during a brief visit a few years ago, and it's unlike any of the photos currently in the article, so I thought I'd upload it. The problem is, I can't remember the name of the place. It has a hotel in it called Rees (the address of which I'm unable now to find anywhere), and if I recall correctly it's a very short walk from Changgyeonggung. Would anyone have any idea what this street is? Aridd (talk) 15:25, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

No information about music in Seoul?
While not knowledgable enough to make the edits, I know that Seoul has symphony orchestras and at least one opera company. Why doesn't this article discuss Seoul's musical institutions? 68.58.36.14 (talk) 19:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Broadband network
This makes no sense: "It has the world's fastest 100 Mbit/s broadband network." I would have thought that all 100 Mbps networks operate at the same speed, 100 Mbps. The source just talks about penetration, not speed. Kendall-K1 (talk) 16:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree. This sentence makes little sense, and is overblown boosterism. Our source for this data is a tourism website, which is a bit dodgy too. I have modified that sentence and a couple others to be more neutral and less promotional. —fudoreaper (talk) 20:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Much better, thanks. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. Thanks for pointing out the lameness. There's lots of boosterism in the opening, actually. This kind of language seems more common than normal in Korea-related articles. But thanks to teamwork, one more improvement! —fudoreaper (talk) 01:48, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Population figures clearly erroneous
The population in the box on the right is listed as "16,581,728", yielding a population density of 27,000/sq km. Elsewhere in the article the figure of 10 million is quoted, with this being more in line with the usual estimates of roughly 10.5 million (yielding a density of 17,000/sq. km.) Has the population of Seoul suddenly exploded or is this merely a straightforward error? --Mrjampot (talk) 08:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed it to 10,581,728 (which is a little different from the figure given elsewhere), using the Seoul city govt. English page already given at the boxed population figure. Kdammers (talk) 09:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

foreigners
"Nearly all of Seoul's residents are Korean, with some small Chinese and Japanese minorities." But later the same section says there are more than a quarter of a million foreigners. "Nearly all" is not numerical (and the Ch & J note muddies things more), but 1/4 million even out of 10.5 million seems to me to be more than enough to negate "nearly all." Kdammers (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

More photos needed
I'm sure everyone is well aware that Seoul is a capital city. So why aren't there any photos of Korean government buildings such as the Blue House (Cheongwadae) or the National Assembly Building? That being said, there are comparatively very little photos of Seoul in general. I mean, I've read articles of other capitals and major cities and have noticed that a line of photos and info-graphics stretch across the left and right side of the article almost unbroken. But for Seoul...there's so little. I remember the Seoul article being so much more easy on the eyes with many photos, not the block of text it is right now. I'm not saying this as some insulted nationalist, but as a person concerned that an article about a two-millenia-old capital city that is the home of a number of multinational companies, the sixth economically strongest metropolis, the 2011 Design Capital City, etc. is not getting the sort of treatment it deserves. It has many hallmarks and historical treasures, Gyeongbokgung (as opposed to just simply Changdeokgung), Yeouido, the Sejong Belt, the 1988 Olympic Stadium (I thought this was a no-brainer), the 2002 World Cup Stadium (same here), Lotte World, etc. Also, what happened to the panoramic views of Seoul? They were wonderful to look at, so I don't see why someone would delete them.

I've read the complaint that the earlier article of Seoul had too many photos. I don't see how that would compromise the article. If anything, the more photos the better (as long as the textual content is not shortened). Honestly, nobody on the Internet reads a lengthy passage of straight text without accompanying photos unless he/she has a specific purpose or true interest. Besides, like I said before, check out the wikipedia articles of Tokyo, Buenos Aires, Beijing, Taipei, London, Paris, and even Pyongyang (for goodness' sake!). All great reads but with plenty of photos, some of which have far more than what Seoul's article had before.

Why would someone read an article about a city? Often to learn about the city before travelling, writing an essay, or to flat-out to satisfy curiosity. But words alone cannot fully describe the essence of something as broad, sublime, and complex as a city - let alone one the size and age of Seoul. Heck, even with photos they can't fully either, but articles with photos are much better and appealing than just "gray-space" (text blocks), as journalists call it. There should be many more photos of Seoul. There is no shortage of neither scenic views or scenic photos. Let's not imply there is. 204.14.79.126 (talk) 05:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Seoul Subway -- Possibly False Info
"It is the world's only subway system with all stations having automatic platform gates for safety" -- Does anyone have the source to verify this? There are plenty of stations that don't have these platforms gates, so I'm wondering where this comes from.

Honupea (talk) 15:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you see stations which don't have platform doors but are part of the Seoul? If so, then the statement is false. We have problems in articles about Korea where claims of greatness are exaggerated beyond the truth. This may be one of those cases.  Are you in Seoul now?  —fudoreaper (talk) 21:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Regardless of whether it's true in Seoul or not, it's not the world's only system with automatic platform gates. Some stations even have platform screen doors, a different thing altogether. Almost all new systems have them installed at all stations now (see [|Rapid transit in China]. -Multivariable (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Issues with lead section
I'm seeing several issues with the lead section, including irrelevant or trivial info, excessive use of superlatives and rankings, conflation of Seoul with South Korea as a whole, and topics that are not mentioned anywhere else in the article. For example, is it so important that Seoul's "world's largest permanent 35 mm cinema screen" has to be in the lead but nowhere else in the article? Or that Bukhansan is the "world's most visited national park per square foot"? Phrases (and weasel words) like "Seoul is considered a leading and rapidly rising global city" were tagged, but were removed without explanation.

The lead previously stated that it was the "largest city proper in the OECD developed world", which was untrue because the OECD includes Turkey (Istanbul is more populous). "OECD" was subsequently taken out (Turkey was arbitrarily deemed "not a developed country"), and now we're left with a vague "developed world" term. (Is this based on HDI, IMF, average wage? Why not OECD then? Why focus specifically on the ill-defined "developed world"?)

The article is specifically about Seoul Special City (서울특별시), separate from Seoul Capital Area (수도권) which includes Incheon and Gyeonggi-do (but is not a distinct administrative region). Why is there so much undue weight given to Incheon International Airport (which is in Incheon and Seoul Capital Area, not actually within Seoul city limits), and not a single mention of Gimpo International Airport? Does it matter what Incheon Airport was ranked for however many years when it's not even in Seoul? And what's with using an obscure UN report that evaluated many other factors/indices to relatively compare Seoul with other (cherry-picked) cities?

I could go on and on, but you get the point. The lead seems to be more concerned with superlatives, rankings, and trivia rather than reflecting the content of the article. I will be working to fix some of these issues, if there are no objections. Thanks! -Multivariable (talk) 20:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If there are no objections, I'll start working on these revisions. -Multivariable (talk) 23:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

"Largest city proper in the developed world"?
Just looking at the pages for the largest city proper and developed world seems to contradict this claim... --Spacepotatoes (talk) 07:04, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If you look at the list of cities proper by population, there are many cities above Seoul, but none of them are considered to be cities in developed countries yet according to this IMF map. Cadiomals (talk) 20:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In my opinion no one has the right to decide if a country is developed or not. Btw, what is the point of mentioning the largest city proper in the developed world? Many cities in "developing" countries outrank Seoul. The population says nothing about life quality. Moreover the picture you provide is from 2008. Times have changed. Most countries marked blue are highly indebted. --2.245.142.24 (talk) 00:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Flag?
Can anyone find a source on them currently using that (horrible) "Soul of Asia" flag? The government website says they're using the seal as the flag, and so does this page. dmitry 06:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Known as Keijō as well as Gyeongseong?
During the colonial period after the cultural and language assimilation policies by Japan in 1938, the city would have been called Keijō, the Japanese reading of Gyeongseong (경성; 京城), by a notable portion of the population, wouldn't it? If it had, it should probably be noted alongside Gyeongseong. There are Japanese/Korean articles located at 京城府/경성부 that both give the reading Keijō-fu, and the Names of Seoul article mentions this. Searching for items from the period seem to show used stamps on postage listed Seoul as "Keizyō, Tyosen" or "KEIJO". I'm personally not an expert on how Korean people spoke in the 1930s/40s, so I'd like some confirmation if anyone knows either way. --Prosperosity (talk) 12:06, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of Seoul
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 17:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Seoul. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070107185557/http://uk.holidaysguide.yahoo.com:80/p-travelguide-221948-seoul_history-i to http://uk.holidaysguide.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-221948-seoul_history-i
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110617170449/http://news.yahoo.com:80/s/afp/20110615/bs_afp/skoreainternettelecom to http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110615/bs_afp/skoreainternettelecom

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Can someone make a photo montage for the lead image (with most important/popular landmarks)?
It's a shame that Seoul doesn't have a collage/montage of photos like almost every other major city in the world, it just has a single photo of one district in this large city. Thing is, I wouldn't know how to properly make such a montage so I'm hoping someone with the skills could do it? Combining historical and modern landmarks will give an overview of the different flavors of the city. Thanks in advance! Cadiomals (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Done! I humbly submit a montage of 8 images I took myself. (It was hard to narrow it down to just 8!) I moved the image of Gangnam that was previously in the infobox down further on the page, as I didn't want to remove that image totally. Mark Froelich (talk) 18:43, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Mark Froelich I was wondering, could you or another user upload a picture that better represents Seoul has a whole. All the pictures in that montage are of cultural and/or historical places. Would it be possible to take out two or three of the pictures and replace them with images that show the modern Seoul as well (such as Gangnam Station, Yeouido, COEX, Lotte World Tower or Seoul World Cup Stadium), as well as an image that shows the geography of the city such as Namsan or Hangang river.Kimahrikku (talk) 03:25, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 6 external links on Seoul. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/6H7Jql2A9?url=http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/global-metro-monitor-3 to http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/global-metro-monitor-3
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://english.seoul.go.kr/gtk/cg/cityhall.php?pidx=6
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://english.seoul.go.kr/gover/cooper/coo_02sis.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www3.prefeitura.sp.gov.br/cadlem/secretarias/negocios_juridicos/cadlem/integra.asp?alt=11072007L%20144710000
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20030930153925/http://english.seoul.go.kr/ to http://english.seoul.go.kr/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20030930153925/http://english.seoul.go.kr/ to http://english.seoul.go.kr/

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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on Seoul. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081216151508/http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=25697 to http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=25697
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120710194425/http://english.seoul.go.kr/gtk/about/fact.php to http://english.seoul.go.kr/gtk/about/fact.php

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Seoul politics?
What do you think about adding a section for city politics/administration/government? I notice that some major capitals have them. Hjbae22 (talk) 08:31, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Where did "Seul" come from?
I recently deleted all mentions of "Seul". I'm curious though. Where the heck did that even come from? Is there any actual basis for "Seul" being an alternate name of Seoul? YB92 (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps more to the point, where did "Seoul" come from? As far as I'm aware, "eu" is a very common combination in transliterated Korean words, whereas "eou" is not (or is even non-existent?). It looks as if someone was trying to suggest the correct Korean pronunciation by making the name resemble English "soul" - otherwise people might be reminded of French "seul" (which more or less rhymes with "girl"). In fact, in quite a few languages (including Italian and Polish) the name is always transliterated as "Seul", since the "o" would suggest a completely different sound - whereas in French the "o" is needed precisely to avoid the "seul" pronunciation just mentioned. Remember, these are transliterations from a different writing system, and there are at least three recognised ways of converting Korean characters into English - so "Seoul" is almost a random choice. But, for good or ill, it is now the customary spelling in English, whereas "Seul" is not.213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:21, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * "Seoul" is a two-syllable name, not a one-syllable name as it's often pronounced in English. The first syllable is 서, romanised "seo," and the second syllable is 울, romanised "ul." These are both very standard on their own and thus not in any way a "random choice," though I can see why it would sound that way given the way most anglophones pronounce the city's name. 2601:180:8300:1720:FC61:8FD4:C781:6FEE (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably Yale Romanization, also Italian. --Christian140 (talk) 14:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Attribution for "History" section, and redundant fork
I noticed that back in 2013, a long, unsourced "History" section was added in this edit:, replacing the shorter existing section. The text was copy-pasted without attribution from a February 2006 revision of the article: (including the citation numbers as text, though the "[2]" was removed). I'm noting it here for the purposes of attribution of the authors, as required by Wikipedia's CC-BY license.

By the way, that long text had been expanded further in 2006, and then merged from the article to the History of Seoul article in these edits:, , in order to reduce the size of this article. From there it continued to be expanded and worked on. The shorter section here was meant to be more of a summary, and a pointer to the main "history" article.

Since the summary was replaced in 2013 with a copy of the original 2006 section, it has also been expanded and worked on. The situation now is that there are two forks from the same material, and two fairly long versions of the history. This is generally not the best idea (see WP:REDUNDANTFORK), and could maybe use some attention. --IamNotU (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Alexflambert (talk) 19:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)The population of Seoul should probably be updated to 38 million, since the US President stated that's the numberAlexflambert (talk) 19:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

About seoul and Tehran's relationship
Hello, Please Add "Tehran"(capital of Iran) in 'international relations' part of seoul English page. They are sister city, in fact tehran is first sister city of seoul. They signed the contract in 1963 during the mayor of Tehran visit to Seoul and Tehran's streets were found in Seoul, and then Seoul Street. Documents are the ones available on the Internet. In the meantime, the Samsung and LG offices are also on this street.

Tihs page is protected and I can't Edit it. If someone of you can, please do. Thank you very much.

Good luck NPD1060 MRdigital.IRCM (talk) 13:04, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Dongdaemun Design Plaza.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Lotte world tower.jpg

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * HangangSeoul.jpg
 * SouthKoreaCapitalSeoul.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Lotte World Tower and Seoul sunset.jpg

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 * Seoul, the capital of South Korea (cropped).jpg

Hello Santa
I love Santa and my family too!! Merry Christmas for Santa!! :) from South Korea(Gimpo) 182.224.30.217 (talk) 14:32, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

population matter
in chart in lebe, it is metioned that Seoul’s population is first in Korea. Bout, Seoul is Regional Local Government due to Korean law, so its population should be compared as other RLGs like Gyeonggi Province or Busan Metropolitan City. Gyeonggi Province is more populated tha Seoul, so Seoul isnt a 1st place in South Korea’s RLG. I gotta edit this, but editting is blocked. Do I have any chance to fix this error? Takraphael (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

fortune 500
> Fortune 500 ==

Howard from NYC (talk) 09:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Q: could the editor of this page please relay this suggestion to the higher-ranked editors?

I've noticed this typo on at least a dozen pages... would someone consider doing a global search ("fortune 500") and replace ("Fortune 500")?

hi
hi? 2601:248:8000:44F0:F5F0:AD78:53EA:F4A6 (talk) 14:28, 24 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi IP user, this is a place to discuss improvements to the Seoul article, not to chat with people. Please use social media like Facebook, Instagram, or Discord to say hi. A diehard editor (talk &#124; edits) 07:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2022 - Subject Sister cities for Seoul, 23 stated.
Request delete Seoul sister city New South Wales, consider /research if should be and insert Sydney. 116.250.222.124 (talk) 23:54, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: As per https://english.seoul.go.kr/policy/international-exchange/sister-friendship-cities/ New South Wales is mentioned to be the sister city, not Sydney. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 14:45, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The name is wrong.
Either the English in the infobox should say "Seoul City" instead of "Seoul", or the Korean should be 서울, not 서울시. I'm pretty sure "서울" is more common. 173.70.33.20 (talk) 17:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't know Korean, so I can't even read what it says without a translator. But, I'd do this because the equivalent article on Korean Wikipedia has "서울" in the infobox. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 19:26, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Recency bias in this article - Includes Itaewon Halloween Incident but not Sampoong building collapse
I feel like including the Itaewon incident but not the Sampoong department store collapse (to this day the collapse is a highly controversial and debated topic), shows a sign of recency bias. Thus, I would like to know if others agree that it indeed is. If so, either information about the Sampoong building collapse could be added, or the Itaewon incident could be removed. When I removed the part from the South Korea article and left a note at the talk page, there was not a single reply and no reverts. But for Seoul I think there may be some who would argue it is significant enough to be included in this article. Jishiboka1 (talk) 02:33, 17 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I am going to remove the Itaewon Incident part for now, but if you revert it please add the Sampoong building collapse as well. If someone reverts without adding, I will add the sampoong and keep Itaewon. Jishiboka1 (talk) 01:33, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2023 about image caption order
The infobox of the entry for Seoul has multiple images. The description below gives a list of names, one for each image.

It is stated that the captions refer to the images in clockwise from top order. This appears to be incorrect. Instead, the captions are describing the images from left to right.

Please change the stated order from clockwise to left to right. Majhain (talk) 21:23, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Since the images are stacked in many rows, I think a clockwise from top order does make sense. So instead of changing the stated order to left to right (which could be confusing to some), I changed the caption order. If someone else would like to override me, feel free. --Pinchme123 (talk) 00:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Some sentences say Lotte World Tower is 4th largest in the world, when it is actually 5th. 70.114.242.215 (talk) 00:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

History section
The history section is currently too long. See WP:SUMMARY. Tl;dr if there's already a main article for a section (History of Seoul), on this article we need to make the section just barely long enough to summarize the main article. The main article has all the technical details (names of books, obscure monarchs/politicians, etc). For this article, I think maybe 1–2 paragraphs.

Also, at a quick glance I think this article has info the History of Seoul article doesn't. So probably we should just cut+paste a chunk of it (must use proper attribution) onto there.

Anyone want to take this up? toobigtokale (talk) 21:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Architecture section
Another ask: I think the architecture section needs a significant rewrite. It mostly just names buildings, without much explanation of how the city designs/regulates the designs of buildings. Compare to London. We can name drop a few of the most notable buildings, but only in appropriate context.

Anyone up for this? toobigtokale (talk) 21:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Grammar-Spelling-Writing
We need to thoroughly review the entire article. There are uncountable mistakes, regardless of whether it is a mistranslation, or a mistake they need fixed. The biggest issue is lack of conciseness, and readers are not here to read fluff. JamesJohnsonJo (talk) 01:21, 21 May 2023 (UTC)


 * yup toobigtokale (talk) 22:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedians, please stay away from flowery language and promotional tidbits. It almost reads as if the City of Seoul had its employees edit this page to include promotional information handed down. This page does not exist to convince readers of how great Seoul is. Jourdy345 (talk) 11:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)