Talk:Sepp Dietrich

Untitled
Cornel general (Generaloberst, Oberstgruppenführer) was higher than Obergruppenführer (General). The normal general ranks (without the field marshal) were then: Generalmajor (Brigadeführer, US brigadier general), Generalleutnant (Gruppenführer, US major general), General (Obergruppenführer, US lieutenant general), Generaloberst (Oberstgruppenführer, US general).

Sure that it's Joseph, not Josef? Difficult to say, Josef is more common, but it may really be that he was registered as Joseph at birth.

---

Hello,

I doubt that S.D. had anything to do with the s.c. spartacus uprising in Berlin (~January, 1919). It seems quite clear that he was in bavaria all the time; suppose there is mixing up with the putting down of the red Munich Raete Republic in which he participated with the Freikorps Oberland (April/May, 1919), as some sources say. Thanks, WernerE - 09.2.05 -- Just wondering, but does anyone know the source of the pictures? --203.17.44.84 09:01, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- Who was second in command of the SS? Was it Dietrich?
 * There is a very similar photo of Sepp Dietrich (same outfit, but without the teeth-showing smile) on the cover of a paperback book due out on 19 October 2005, according to amazon.com. Bibliographic entry: Messenger, Charles. Hitler's Gladiator: The Life and Wars of Panzer Army Commander Sepp Dietrich. No location: Conway Maritime Press, 2005; paperback; 264 pages. P.S.: For what it might be worth, I wrote my Master's Thesis on the early career of Sepp Dietrich back in 1977. DonBruce 14:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I would assume it was Karl Hanke, who succeeded Himmler as Reichsfuhrer-SS during the final days of the war. Being that Dietrich was Waffen-SS and showed little of the "qualities" of the likes of Himmler, Heydrich, et al., I doubt he would have been been considered for that position in any case. user:Jsc1973

POV
Anyone reading this article without knowing Sepp's career will think that he was a normal military man, and not the ruthless and murderous thug who he actually was. I still don't know if I should laugh or if should cry. A real tragedy he didn't fall in Soviet hands.


 * Cry.--217.230.254.116 23:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

WOW! What an astute comment. Ruthless murderous thug? Try reading a book, it might give you some insight onto the actions on both sides, especially during the US advancement through France. There were atrocities on both sides. And any commentator who has read the transcripts and the evidence during his "war crimes" trial will see that it was a complete miscarriage of justice. Even in the US at the time there is evidence to support this. The only murder he could be found complicit with would have been the deaths of the SA men killed while he was commanding the men at the prison. He did act on orders to kill them, and as such was found guilty at his trial after being released from prison the first time.

69.143.8.152


 * Nonsense...Dietrich was an early and ardent Nazi...Ok, so some on the Allied side committed 'atrocities'? That in no way mitigates the German side...Now, I'm not saying he was a "ruthless and murderous thug" as posted above - but he sure wasn't a "normal military man" either ! Engr105th 04:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This is, indeed, so much nonsense! Dietrich's 6th murdered and raped its way through Belgium, killing numerous Belgiums and US POWs in their wake. Steven Zaloga's work (IIRC Max Hastings' too) on the Battle of the Bulge concluded that the killing of POWs and civies was a conscious terrorist strategy to demoralize the US army. Allied 'atrocities' would have been unsusprising. If the Americans were so atrocious, then perhaps Dietrich shoudl surrender to the Russians. -Jonathan Chin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.225.71.130 (talk) 05:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo
Under the first photo it is written that he is gruppenfuhrer in that photo. But this is clearly wrong because in this photo he is obergruppenfuhrer.

Generalship
For an entry of a military man, the article on Sepp Dietrich's merits or weakneses as a commander is too sparse. Using one recommandation to encapsulate his military performance seems somehow inadequate; there are many military historians who considered him the archetypical political officer who owned his rise through the ranks to being Hitler's favorite instead of military abilities. Again, Max Hating and S. Zaloga's criticism of Dietrich is unsparing. A contempory German General gave him a back-handed compliment of being "a magnificient sargeant." While those are not necessarily true, a more throughly evaluation of Dietrich's competence, such as one that exists for Rommel, Model and Guderian, is warranted here. -Jonathan Chin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.109.140.134 (talk) 06:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

References & Further reading
This section lists an unlikely title in German: Hitler, Adolf. Adolf Hitler und seine Kämpfer. U.S. Library of Congress's on line catalogue doesn't list this title, nor does it show a similar title by Hitler. The Austrian parliamentary library catalog lists the title but no author: Identification 	 	( Parl ) Level of description 		Komplett abgeschlossene Titelaufnahme Title 		Adolf Hitler und seine Kämpfer '''Addit. title information''' 		288 Braunhemden im Reichstag ; die Nationalsozialistische Reichstagsfraktion VIII. Wahlperiode, 5.März 1933 ; mit Abb. und Personalangaben der Mitglieder Language 		Deutsch Publisher 		München : Eher, 1933 No. of Holding(s) 		1 Holding(s) 		Sign.: 21.996 * Sto: K1 Page(s) 		240 S. : Ill. - 16 cm Research unit(s) 		63a // 71z // 80b Classification (FDC) 		L03 ( Geschichte, Rechtsgeschichte ) // B07 ( Parlamentarismus ) // L02 ( Biographien, Festschriften ) Keywords 		c.Deutschland / Reichstag;k.Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei;s.Abgeordneter;f.Biographie

Roughly transklated: Adolf Hitler and his fighters: 288 brownshirts in the Reichstag, the national socialist legislative group VIII. Election 5 March 1933; with ??? and personal information of the members --AndersW (talk) 06:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Idiot?
I was just channel hopping, and came into a documentary which said a few things about this guy. According to the documentary, his men loved him but fellow officers thought he was a fricken moron. Some examples given were an officer trying to use a map to explain the situation for over an hour, without him able to grasp the situation, and his inability to really understand orders. It also said he had a personality that his soldiers likes. Seems a bit contradictary to me maybe, but it's what it said. Anyone know anything else about this? -OOPSIE- (talk) 01:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Promoted twice to same rank?
The following does not make sense:


 * He rose to the rank of SS-Obergruppenführer, commander of Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, General of the Waffen-SS and member of the Prussian state council.

Shortly thereafter, he was promoted to SS Obergruppenführer.
 * In 1934, Dietrich played an active role in the Night of the Long Knives.

Tabletop (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Two reasons for his death?
There is two conflicting reasons for Dietrichs death:


 * Dietrich was sentenced to death in absentia by a Soviet court in connection with war crimes committed by Leibstandarte in Kharkov in 1943.


 * In 1966 Dietrich died of a heart attack in Ludwigsburg at age 73.

I can't seem to find references to verify which is correct, does anyone know?

 Fallschirmjäger 20:27, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The 1966 answer is correct. Presumably he was sentenced to death, however the Soviets never got their hands on him.Dduff442 (talk) 11:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Inadequate Lede
''Josef "Sepp" Dietrich (May 28, 1892 – April 21, 1966) was a German Waffen-SS general, an SS-Oberstgruppenführer, and one of the men closest to Adolf Hitler. For his wartime services, he was one of only 27 men to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.''

-- This is a completely inadequate summary the life in question. Dietrich was a murderer, major war criminal and a participant in the night of the long knives. That he was one of 'only' 27 RK/swords/diamonds winners is no major news. This award was earned by ordering ideological maniacs to certain death. As a corps and army commander, Dietrich would only seldom have been near the front lines.

He was imprisoned in the 60s for murders during the SA purge. I don't think the Bundesrepublik esteemed his 'service'.

I intend to radically re-write this section, so comments are welcome now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dduff442 (talk • contribs) 00:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As there are no references in the article as it stands, I'm going to just write a new lede by taking stuff from the main body.Dduff442 (talk) 11:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

'Recommendations' section
I've no idea of the meaning of this section: ''Outstanding in the defence, especially on the return path to Riga. Refer to the Georgian Staff Corps''. Will delete unless it's clarified. Would improve only I really don't understand what's attempted to be stated.Dduff442 (talk) 13:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Krätschmer biography not reliable
"qualified hotelier", "packmaster", "paymaster sergeant", flattery and prettying up - Krätschmer is not reliably at all (Devotional literature, notorious publisher). Dietrich was brought up by stepfather, joined bav. 4. Artillery in Augsburg voluntarily at age of 19, but had to leave shortly after. In WW I he was never promoted to Vizewachtmeister, and the EK I he awarded himself after the war. What bavarian military records allow to state is that he was promoted Gefreiter in 1917 and awarded the EK II in December 1917, and was member of ''bayerische Sturm-Panzer-Wagen-Abt. 13'' in 1918 (see: Bayerisches Kriegsarchiv, Kriegsstammrollen at ancestry.de) --93.104.179.253 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 10 April 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Josef Dietrich → Sepp Dietrich – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Known almost exclusively as Sepp Dietrich or, more formally, as Josef "Sepp" Dietrich (a form that we almost never use for article titles). Almost never referred to simply as Josef Dietrich. -- Relisted. Favonian (talk) 18:36, 17 April 2015 (UTC). Necrothesp (talk) 08:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:57, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. "Sepp" does indeed appear to be the WP:COMMONNAME, witness for instance this ngram. Favonian (talk) 12:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support to the extent that I don't even understand why this article would ever have been at Josef. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 08:54, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Assessment section
This section does not match the encyclopedic style of the rest of the article, both in style and rigor; there are no sources and the information provided is vague. For example,

Dietrich's formal military education was sparse and many critics have said command of an army was beyond his competence. Many of the German army generals looked down upon him in this regard, especially members of the General Staff. However, Dietrich was an acknowledged expert small-unit tactician and no one questioned his personal bravery since he was a lead-from-the-front type of commander. The troops that he led appreciated his rough humor and identification with the soldiers on the front lines. Dietrich was also smart enough to appoint highly capable officers to his staff to handle the technical aspects of higher command, leaving him free to exercise overall command.

I'd like to have it removed. Throughts?--K.e.coffman (talk) 07:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and removed this sections. Please let me know if there are concerns about this. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Sentenced in absentia
Does anyone has a sourced for this statement?
 * Dietrich was sentenced to death in absentia by a Soviet court in connection with war crimes committed by Leibstandarte in Kharkov in 1943.

The only thing I'm finding is that the Soviets chose not to seek his extradition for crimes in Kharkov (per The Lesser Terror: Soviet State Security, 1939-1953 by Michael Parrish). From this, I'm reading that Dietrich was not convicted, since a country normally seeks extradition so that they can put the alleged perpetrator on trial, correct?

There was indeed a trial in Kharkov (also discussed in The Lesser Terror but only small fry were convicted: a low-ranking SS man and a couple of collaborators, IIRC. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:57, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Recent lead and infobox edit
Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "Exp lead with material from the article; revise / streamline infobox; overcat". --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:13, 5 December 2018 (UTC)