Talk:Sepp Holzer

Comment
ok, hi there

I`ve started the article about the world famous Sepp Holzer who invented Permaculture on the English Wiki for the above reasons. Studying permaculture for several years myself from the alleged inventors Bill Mollison etc. I was very astonished that Sepp Holzer from Austria actually invented permaculure and that he has been taking it several levels deeper than the collegues in the english-speaking realm. Sepp Holzer needs to be kown on account of students worldwide. He`s the one who practically, not only theoretically conducts permaculture and that on the most broadband level I`ve ever seen...

I`ll keep on translating the german article about him in the future as far as native English speakers usually don`t speak german...

greetings, Nico


 * OK. Put de:Sepp Holzer (or whatever interwiki) at the bottom of the page right away next time. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 12:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Then you will be astonished to know there has been a permaculture forest in the Moroccan desert for 2000 years. Some in Asia are even older and larger. Cheers :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.131.236.43 (talk) 00:33, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

References and notability
This article needs additional references that establish the notability of Mr. Holzer. Regards, PDCook (talk) 02:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The parts of Sepp Holzer's practises which happen to have genuine ecological–sustainability indefinitely, were done already by late Mr. 福岡正信 Fukuoka Masanobu; He initiated "自然農法 [nature farming]" in 1938, and fully committed to it from 1947 onwards for more than 60 years—the rest of his long 95 years life; Documented with his journal papers and official Agricultural Experimental Stations' reports, eg. 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s; With his writing official farming advice newspaper columns for many years in the Ehime Shimbun (in Ehime Prefecture); With his first book: and his effectively–second–edition of it: With his further books from 1969, 1972, 1973, 1975, etc. onwards; Of course, with his farm itself. For example from 1938 & again after the War from 1947, Mr. Fukuoka hauled down on his back—large pine & other logs—into trenches that he hand dug; Covering them over, rather than mounding the surface soil with logs and bulldozing/excavating topsoil over them. These trenches have more genuine sustainability benefits, relatively-natural (by simple observation), and less artificial judgements associated with them (meaning less playing God, by deciding arbitrarily what is and what is not sustainable, for one's selfish purposes—the same for what is or is not natural)—artificial judgements which have less naturalness relatively, of course.
 * 1947, self published;
 * 1958, self published;

Reference:

—Masanobu Fukuoka 1978 (original Japanese 1975) The One-Straw Revolution Rodale Press, U.S.A. pages 61–64. (electronic copies of various USA & Indian editions (eg. 1978, 1984 or 1992), are freely available online)

You can see there in those 4 pages that after he did all these methods of burying organic matter, with success, in the 1930–40s, including large and many logs in trenches, that then he realised superior again is the relatively more sustainable, simpler, natural, less unnecessary working, less back breaking, less costing, less machinery using, less harming & easier, having growing many, deep–rooted, tall, green manure trees; growing taller than the fruit trees in his orchards, in his location & climate: the Australian Acacia mearnsii called Black Wattle (in his romanised–character–Japanese: "Morishima Acacia"; back then botanically officially named Acacia mollissima (the letter L is written with the letter R in romanised Japanese as the letter L doesn't exist in romanised Japanese)—he also called it Black Wattle in his The Natural Way of Farming. An evergreen south-eastern Australian native forest tree growing in nature as tall as about 25m.) Superior, finally, because such a dense planting of nitrogen–fixing leguminous tall trees, which naturally grow extremely fast (up to maximum of about 8m or more a year, after established in his warm–temperate climate (verging on subtropical), growing much slower while establishing when young), can produce roots, and hence old dying roots and new growing roots, which insert just as much woody material in those soils; As back-breaking hauling–on–one's–back does; And without even damaging the soil that hand digging trenches and refilling them does, to soil structure, soil life (microbial & worms, etc.) and topsoil; Let alone what catastrophic soil damage bulldozers do, as everyone who seriously cares already knows. In Sepp Holzer's climate those many large pine trees in his soil he recorded, which he rubbished as rubbish trees recorded in documents online, provide his best-for-his-climate models, of genuine ecologically–sustainable soil fertilising. As models all he needed to do is simply find nitrogen fixing species of trees, similar to the model pine trees, suited to his alpine Austrian environment of soils, climate and micro-climates. Of course they would grow much slower than in Fukuoka Masanobu's warm–temperate climate (verging on subtropical) southern Japan location; as any tree species suited to any alpine environment would—would have evolved to grow much slower, from energy availability in the colder climate of course. All else being equal they would grow more quickly than many other varieties of trees there (all else in nature is never equal)—precisely because they would be nitrogen–fixing plant species. Some of the many deciduous European–native nitrogen–fixing legume trees would be ideal examples. Here in cold Canberra, Australia, but not so cold as Sepp Holzer's place, many species of European and north American deciduous nitrogen–fixing legume trees have been planted in the parks and streets, growing very well in their growth, beautifully and getting minimal care—largely neglected which is good when successful like this—no maintenance, no input costs—the ideal.

In turn late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's practises and learning comes from, on this particular activity, Japanese government agricultural extension programs, back then in the 1930-40s, advocating burying organic matter—more broadly derives from Japanese traditions through long Japanese history and back to what are now China and Korea, and to indigenous Japan; especially many ways of farming, and derives from many Indigenous & ancient peoples' practises around our Earth. As documented online in numerous reliable sources (use Google and more, please); Sepp Holzer's practises, many of his practises, not all, do not have any genuine ecological–sustainability in the indefinite future—especially not his extensively-recorded, extensive–bulldozing of topsoil, and many more other practises; killing, unnecessarily, many many creatures: from microbial–soils, through to what nature used to live there before bulldozed; –according to his own written condemnation of nature there: many large pine trees growing in his soil, spontaneously–naturally. In written documents of books & journal papers, late Mr. Masanobu Fukuoka sensei definitely does not approve of many of Sepp Holzer's defining practises, most definitely bulldozing.

Reference: —Masanobu Fukuoka 1985 – revised edition 1987 (original Japanese 1975) The Natural Way of Farming: The Theory and Practice of Green Philosophy Japan Publications, Tokyo. –introduction in the section: "Setting Up an Orchard" –page 139 --macropneuma 02:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC) —A few small clarification copyedits.--macropneuma 00:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC) —A few more corrections, bettering the wording and clarifications, for comprehensibility and readability.--macropneuma 21:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC) —A few more minor readability copyedits—progressive improvement.--macropneuma 22:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC) —Clarification of 1947 reference by Masanobu Fukuoka, by my later improved information.--macropneuma 10:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is the link to the article on the gentleman you mention: Masanobu Fukuoka. -- 147.142.186.54 (talk) 19:47, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "notability": the German article has, besides much other information, a list of books published by S.H. and media coverage of his work. Also he has conducted projects in quite a number of countries, also in the tropics. What information do you want included here to fullfill your wish? -- 147.142.186.54 (talk) 19:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

"Handball player" ?
I don't buy that. Neither does the German article mention anything like that, nor does it seem probable. Maybe someone confused two individuals with identical or similar names (since his are not rare ones)?

If no reliable reference is given, that bit of "information" needs to be removed. -- 147.142.186.54 (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)y

"right wing farmers" ??
The article presently states at its beginning that S.H. was "coming from a line of right-wing farmers".

Whatever precisely that term is supposed to mean, it is neither precise, nor referenced and rtther sounds like a diffamation attempt or something.

The German article (which lists and has linkes to a number of sources) mentions a traditional rural catholic upbringing. That is not in any way spectacular for rural Austria. Was that behind the allegation? I am going to change the passage. If anyone wants to revert, he has to be more precise and give sufficient reference for such statement! -- 147.142.186.54 (talk) 19:37, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Vandalizing by 81.140.58.62
The User 81.140.58.62 vandalized this Article massively. I'm surprised no one has caught his bad edits. (Documentary directed by Michael Bay). 188.23.131.204 (talk) 22:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Good catch. It looks better now. Gobonobo  T C 23:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a slightly more in-depth description of the Holzer farm's operation?
I have no criticism of how the article is evolving. I do have a couple of small suggestions for further content development.

Mr. Sepp Holzer inherited this farm from his parents. I can assume that financing of the farmland, per se, has been an insignificant or non-existent challenge.

I also assume (but would like confrimation) that the farm represents "a paying proposition" (pays for itself, rather than being subsidized by off-farm employment — or perhaps yields a profit). Maybe something could be said on this point.

I remember seeing one video in which the Holzer farm's basic terracing was done using an excavator. Quite understandable for this crucial, prerequisite phase of their approach to farming steep mountain land. And I assume they use one or more trucks. However, I don't know about their requirement for other machinery (tractor, rotary tiller, etc). So this would also be interesting to know just a wee bit about, since most "modern" farming is dependent on very large, very expensive machinery.

It would be interesting to learn a bit, also, about whether the Holzer family are able to operate all aspects of the farm on their own or whether they work in cooperation with employees, students or interns, etc (since the various harvests no doubt entail considerable labor).

I appreciate the efforts of the contributors who know infinitely more about the Holzer operation than I do who may contribute more info to the article. Thanks.Joel Russ (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2014 (UTC)