Talk:Serbian Americans/Archive 1

Comment
I moved it back to "Serbian American": this is the way there are all the other articles on ethnicities in the US. bogdan 23:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

RELIGION
I have never met a roman cathlic serbian....serbs are not roman cathlic, please edit this...it's offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.248.217 (talk) 03:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have. SovietCanuck (talk)


 * HAHA. I'm a Catholic Serbian.  Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 19:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You used "cathlic" twice. Anyways, this article is not about "Serbs" its about "Serbian American". The latter group having less religious and genetic cohesion than the former due to marriage with members of other ethnic groups. Just a simple observation. Somewhat case in point - George Voinovich. He is a Roman "Cathlic". 70.171.46.92 (talk) 18:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Notable serbs
Please add the most notable serb, Nikola Tesla —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.84.106 (talk) 12:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Yugoslav Americans and 2005 Data on Serbian Americans
Why do we not add the Yugoslav Americans to this group as well? Naturally, there would be a note as a wiki-disclaimer.70.171.46.92 (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Number of Serbian Americans is higher for 2005 than 2004. Please refer to "http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/IPTable?_bm=y&-reg=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201:558;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201PR:558;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201T:558;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201TPR:558&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201PR&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201T&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201TPR&-ds_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_&-TABLE_NAMEX=&-ci_type=A&-redoLog=true&-geo_id=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en". Here you will see that its ~169-170 000 people.

As for Yugoslav Americans - see "http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/IPTable?_bm=y&-reg=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201:585;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201PR:585;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201T:585;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201TPR:585&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201PR&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201T&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201TPR&-ds_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_&-TABLE_NAMEX=&-ci_type=A&-redoLog=true&-charIterations=016&-geo_id=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en" 70.171.46.92 (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the first one is a good source but not the second. Yugoslav Americans suggests the other ethnic groups of the former Yugoslavia would be included and that would not be the same as Serbian American.Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 19:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree on the basis that so much personal experience points to the fact that it was almost exclusively Serbs who believed in Yugoslavia. Naturally, this is not any kind of evidence, but I do have an factually based point as well. Serbia is the successor state to Yugoslavia, the big one and the Serbia-Montenegro one. The data was collected after the disintegration of Yugoslavia and the recognition of Serbia as the successor state. So by following this line to the successor, if that makes sense, then the ethnic Yugoslavs are ethnic Serbs. Yes, there are flaws with that. But I really think that we should present the numbers of Yugoslavs in America and give a slight explanation as to why we're presenting them. Its called Yugo-nostalgia and many Serbs are characteristic of it. A neurologist in Toronto was saying how he has many Serbian patients in his practice - although the delusional ones still say they're Yugoslavian. I found it to be funny. :-) 70.171.46.92 (talk) 20:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the fact that you admit that there are flaws supports the fact that the first cite should be used. Also "personal experience" borders on original research and thus can't be used. Still if your info is verifiable, it could lead to another section to discuss these points, but we will need sources. My problem with your theory is that my own experience as a Serb has never involved other Serbs I have known refering to themselves as "Yugoslavians". Even when the nation still existed when I was a child, my grandfather corrected me when I called myself Yugoslavian and told me I was Serbian. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 21:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I will attempt to find the necessary sources. On a related note, in the Yugoslavs article there are a few sentences indicating that my suggestion is right. However, I realize that this falls under the "Other Stuff Exists" wikipedia rule. Especially, given that there is no source directly demonstrating the claims of the article.

These are the few sentences from the article: It was estimated, according to comparison of census statistics (such as declared language), that Yugoslavs came mostly from within Serbia. It is also suspected that many to have declared themselves as Yugoslavs will have at some time - either previously or later - declared themselves Serbs.XJeanLuc (talk) 09:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the key words there are within Serbia meaning that there are Serbians in Serbia who refer to themselves as Yugoslavs but not exactly in America. Also the later sentence of that paragraph backs up my point: "In the 2002 census, 49,881 inhabitants of the Serbian province Vojvodina declared themselves as "Yugoslav" (at a time when Serbia was part of the country still called FR Yugoslavia)." Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your idea doesn't make sense, but I'd rather have at least one source to back it up. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 13:02, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that many Americans are simply ignorant about their ancestry and world events so this would explain why there are still a significant number of people who declare Yugoslav ancestry. It's not a political statement (that they are opposed to the breakup), instead its ignorance (they never asked their grandparents what part of Yugoslavia they were from and/or they may not be aware that there no longer is a Yugoslavia). --Tocino 07:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Um...I would disagree considering that animosity between Serbs and Croatians in America continued to exist during my grandparents time and they made pretty damn sure I knew I was Serbian (hard to ignore it actually with my name). Also my experience has shown that most Americans do have a good grasp of their ethnic heritage so I'm not sure where you are getting your information that they are not. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 13:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering that many Americans can't even locate this country on a blank map, I doubt these same people would know anything about Yugoslavia and what happened to it. I am from the South where the majority of whites declare "American ancestry" instead of Scots-Irish, English, Scottish, Irish, German, etc. which is what most actually are. As time goes on, more and more people will probably declare American ancestry. --Tocino 20:55, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering the regional differences between the south and other parts of the country, I'm not surprised that most people are declaring an American ethnicity (to the rest of the world that is who we are anyway), but that does not mean the entire country is like this because it ignores the various ways people express there ethnic heritage (holidays, heritage months, professional and educational organizations, various ethnic neighborhoods in various cities, etc.) across the country. To think that Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Macedonians, and Montenegrons in Americans call themselves Yugoslavs because of ignorance does not have a basis in fact and the example of Americans not being able to find this country on a map is an extreme example for Americans obvious problem with geography.  Unless you have a source to back this is up that should not be a reason added to this page. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 21:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I never said that it should be added to the article. I was just floating a theory out there. Sorry I bothered you. --Tocino 03:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:American sportspeople of Serbian descent
Liz Read! Talk! 02:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

History
Does anyone know of a good place to get information in writing a history section about Serbian Americans? Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 13:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC) "In the 1830s, many Serb sailors and fishermen from Montenegro and Herzegovina immigrated to New Orleans seeking employment" Serb shepards perhaps, but not sailors and fishermen.

Tom Selleck
According to the article, Tom Selleck is a Serbian-American, but I find no such information on the Tom Selleck article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Selleck where it says he is of Scottish and English ancestry. Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 00:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Number of Serbs?
Real number seems to be not much below 200 000, and it is appropriate to add that some of Yugoslavs are probably Serbs, HOWEVER, number of Serbs in Chicago is not even near number of 400 000 and this should be deleted. There is source - Blic article - but not relevant at all, there is no any proof only some estimate by Serbian comunity, but again without any proof. Its only myth made by Serbians. Serbs in Chicago make maybe 0.3% of population - and even that is high estimate.

Please Add Bill Vukovich
Please add a picture of Bill Vukovich – the two-time Indy 500 winner (1953 and 1954) – to the set of pictures located at the top-right corner of the article. If I knew how to do it myself, I’d do it. He's far more important to American Serbdom than, for example, Milorad Cavic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulipsword (talk • contribs) 22:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Flag cruft
Please note that I removed the contemporary Serbian flag and contemporary American flag per MOS:FLAG (specifically MOS:INFOBOXFLAG). Considering the fact that both flags have undergone changes since the 1800s (when the recorded history of Serbian migration began), and the Serbian flag has changed since the major influx of migrants post WWII, it's a misrepresentation of history to assign contemporary flags as being representative of the community. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Serbs in Alaska
I see no purpose in having Serbs in Alaska separate from the main article. A section suffices.--Z oupan 07:30, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Mm.srb (talk) 11:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Support merge. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:59, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Dubious notables
E.g., do we really know Milla Jovovich identifies as Serb at all? She could consider herself Montenegrin, or maybe just American. Notrium (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Dubious, controversial and POV evaluation stated in Wikipedia's voice in lead
Recently I tried to remove "However, the number may be higher, as some 291,045 people who identify as Yugoslavs living in the United States, and many, if not most Yugoslav immigrants were of Serb ethnicity." from the lead paragraph; but it is persistently being added back without any support for putting the sentence into the article, let alone lead paragraph.

The sentence is as-is unsuitable for including anywhere on WP, because it requires an attribution. The claim itself is obviously controversial because of denying people the right to ethnic self-identification and it is unclear to boot. Notrium (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

please explain your actions. Notrium (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Ethnic self-identification"? WTF does that sentence have to do with denying it? Anyway, "ethnic self-identification" seems entirely bogus, as ethnicity is usually a fact not an opinion. What the sentence does is make that point that the given number might be exact, since, as I guess in all countries in the world, some might not be aware of their ancestry. In any case, you are removing a sourced claimed because you obviously have some strong opinion on the as ever controversial Balkans... Saying it is added "without any support" is wrong. In any case, I'm not the one that owes anybody explanations as you are the one challenging the previous stable version so if you have good reasons to remove it (i.e. not your personal biases) then please point them out. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs)  21:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * your understanding of ethnicity is deeply flawed, see ethnicity (lead sentence: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of presumed similarities such as a common language, ancestry, history, society, culture, nation or social treatment within their residing area.).
 * Or consider the case of Ivo Andrić who started out Croat, but converted to Serbdom. Notrium (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Red herring all over the place. 2) The material is properly sourced and relevant. 3) You have no consensus, and if somebody claims that an editor is making a WP:POINT that does not mean that he is being offensive.  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  22:47, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * consider that this comment of yours does not whatsoever contribute to the discussion: you managed to completely ignore all of my arguments. Notrium (talk) 22:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as I've always known ethnicity is usually seen as mostly related to ancestry; and everything else usually happens to be simple social and geographical consequences from that. Though, of course, in a case such as the Balkans, where the language is the same, the countries were together for a while, ..., it does complicate things a bit... Nevertheless, if you have reliable sources which oppose Powell's statement (seemingly, judging by his name, neither from Serbia or Croatia, or anywhere else in the European powder keg for that matter, so an appropriately neutral source), please do mention them. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you really claim that what you've always known is relevant, especially after I explicitly showed you you're wrong? Do you claim the ethnicity page is wrong, or what?
 * Regarding the "I'm not the one that owes anybody explanations" comment from your less recent paragraph, you're wrong: you do owe explanation for every possibly controversial edit you make, especially if it's a revert.
 * Please be more polite and focus on the content, I would never dismiss an argument of yours as "personal biases" (even though you are obviously biased). Notrium (talk) 00:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding your implication that RS are just to be copied without thought, please see WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, WP:EXCEPTIONAL and, especially, WP:POV.
 * My position is based on the American Community Survey (same numbers as with Powell, thus he used ACS as his source): if a person declares themselves to be Yugoslav, no WP editor can "convert" them to a Serb. I can't comment on Powell's specific claim, as the source is not accessible to me; but my arguments should be WP:COMMONSENSE once one knows what ethnicity means and what constitutes NPOV on WP. Also, consider that for Powell's claim (I'm assuming it's the same one as in the article) to be reliable and make any kind of sense, he would have had to base it on another expensive survey like the ACS. I don't know of a survey that asks people who declare as a Yugoslav if they also consider themselves Serb, do you? (Hint: it doesn't exist AFAIK). Notrium (talk) 00:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A bit off-topic note: RandomCanadian, I am offended by your repeated derogatory comments towards the Balkans, please consider how they may make others feel. Notrium (talk) 00:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Whatever your opinion is on the source, it does seem to be a WP:RS so unless you can find one which says otherwise (which is what WP:NPOV is about, we report content as the sources report it, not as we ourselves think is "neutral"), I wouldn't remove it. The statement could maybe be shortened in the lead and given elsewhere in the article, but your edits so far seemed more like an outright attempt to remove it, which seems just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Feel free to be offended, but AFAIK they were at war because of ethnic infighting about just before the start of the millenium and nationalism and the like don't look like they have just disappeared in a puff of magic, and anyway I don't see what's "derogatory" about describing the area as "controversial" or "the powder keg of Europe" (which I'm using metaphorically here, it's a term which dates to before WW1). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, here it is: Notice how there is no attempt to convert Yugoslavs to Serbs, or any related commentary whatsoever. Hell, even the ACS is an appropriate source here, since the sentence in question second guesses the survey results. Notrium (talk) 01:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I have reworded it; but note the point I make in the edit summary. Also note that sources such as CNN (maybe in the eyes of some a biased source for some other things, but certainly not this) said, at the time the US were bombing Serbia, that, without doubt, the number of Serbs in America was higher than one million. Obviously this number didn't go down... In retrospect the about 300 thousand who "identify" as Yugoslav seems rather low... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for taking the time to improve the wording. The situation is now good enough for me to put the issue at rest. BTW, I think we can ignore CNN's "million" if other sources disagree (WP:WEIGHT), especially since CNN doesn't elaborate on the number to explain the difference. Notrium (talk) 08:27, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you.  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  11:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)