Talk:Serbian Orthodox Church/Archive 1

Đurđevdan
I can't find any info about Đurđevdan on Wikipedia, so I'll start it as a stub and I urge someone to supply additional info to it as it seems to be an important Serbian Orthodox holiday (and I can't figure out 100% which day it is :-) ). Dijxtra 20:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Ranking
According to Ecumenical Patriarchate (http://www.ec-patr.gr/en/links.htm), Patriarchate of Serbia is ranked #6, after Patriarchate of Russia. Patriarchate of Georgia is listed #9, after Romania and Bulgaria. Not important, but should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.121.69.85 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I saw the same thing and fixed it Happyman22 16:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The Patriarchate of Serbia is really #6 not after the one of Russia (1586 AC), but after the one of Bulgaria (927 AC).
 * Then Patriarch of Bulgaria German was the one who raised Prince (Knez) Stefan Dushan to the rank of king (tsar)and the Archibishop of Pec to a Patriarch despite of the objections and protests of the Patriarch of Constantinople.
 * See Wikipedia Eastern Orthodox Churches or any other Historical Site e.g. http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7053.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.7.161 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * But, as far as I know, ranking does not necessarly correspond to the date of church's establishment. Vanjagenije 20:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

“Please don’t mention the war?”
It seems like just very few words are used to describe what the Serbian Orthodox Church has done during the Yugoslav Wars... as a staunch supporter of Slobodan Milosevic policies in Croatia and Bosnia from the beginning of the 90s up until 1995, when it felt betrayed by Belgrade by the “loss” of Krajina.

The Patriarch Pavle was a supporter of war criminals Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic during the Bosnian War and Genocide, and there’s even a photography of the three together during this infamous era — just Google around and you will find it.

Have you ever hear any official statement of the S.O. Church against the war crimes committed by Serb politicians, soldiers and even robbers like Arkan? — the answer is NO.

And I am not only talking about a thing of the past. UP UNTIL 2011 the S.O. Church promoted the book published by a former soldier CONVICTED OF BURNING BOSNIANS CIVILIANS ALIVE BY THE ICTY — Milan Lukic.

The Roman Catholic Church articles here in Wikipedia includes many and many sections dedicated to criticisms, controversies and crimes attributed to its members. And there is really no need to say the same applies to Sunni Islam-related articles.

SO WHY THIS ARTICLE ABOUT THE SERB ORTHODOX CHURCH LOOKS LIKE AN HAGIOGRAPHIC PIECE OF ADVERTISING AND PROPAGANDA THAN A REAL ENCYCLOPEDIC ARTICLE?--201.81.239.129 (talk) 07:16, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to see a more balanced article - but it should be neutral, not a polemic. What sources have you got? bobrayner (talk) 10:36, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

It`s not just the last war. In ww2 serbian priests were members of chetnics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.233.24 (talk) 00:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Dubious Sentence
"The Serbian Orthodox Church also took an active role in the wars, condoning and supporting human rights abuses by Serbian forces."

This must have been written by a Croat, after all their government wants to found an independent Croatian "Orthodox" Church. The idea is silly, not to mention the tiny number of people who would follow it (literally around 500, smaller even than the Church of Sinai, hardly proper for an entire country the size of Croatia). It's really just a terribly cruel joke on the part of the Croatian nationalists to make fun of the Orthodox Church. It's like when China set up its still alive and well Chinese National "Catholic" Church and the reaction of Rome to that. If there are Croats who want to convert to Orthodox Christianity, I have no problem with that, join the Serbian, or whatever nearby Orthodox parish, there is in your area. Other Westerners who convert to Orthodoxy don't petition their governements to start their own Orthodox jurisdictions, they join Greek or Russian or what ever other parish may be there, (even the Western Rite Orthodox are provided with jurisdictions by the Orthodox bishops, be they Greek, Russian, or the few Romanian parishes, they don't just setup these jurisdictions themselves) and unless the majority of Western Christians unite with the Orthodox Church, it will most likely remain so. Only the conversion of a large enough number of Croatians, and the willingness of the Serbian Patriarchate to grant autonomy and later autocephally to such a church structure could there ever be a "Croat Orthodox Church", which is doubtful since Croats who convert to Orthodoxy are Serbs and Serbs who convert to Roman Catholicism are Croatians. The national identity is defined by the religion one practices. Secular Governments can not just "establish" Orthodox Churches, the Orthodox Hierarchy has to agree to or reject such a situation and provide accordingly.

I'm not going to deny that many Serbian priests actively supported the war, but whether or not they even knew about the human rights abuses, much less supported them sounds very unlikely. This also ignores how the Serbian Patriarch, and many high ranking church members lead massive protests against the war. This sentence cannot represent the Serbian Orthodox Church as a whole.

Please also do not forget the Croatian Roman Catholic clergy, and its total support of the Nazi established Croatian Fascist Ustasha puppet state and its ethnic clensing of Serbs during WWII. The Serbs were at the very least trying to keep a universally recognized nation state (Yugoslavia) from falling apart. The Croatians during WWII were committing unprovoked and specifically religiously based genocide.

I'm going to change this sentence to something more neutral, someone else can change it to something more professional sounding.

New organization
I propose new organization or article (really small changes)

History:


 * 1) Middle ages
 * 2) In Ottoman empire
 * 3) In Habsburg monarchy
 * 4) In modern Serbian state (1804-1918)
 * 5) In Socialistic Yugoslavia
 * 6) History form 1990-

Structure


 * 1) Territirial organization
 * 2) Hierarchy

Relation with Serbian state

Serbian Church Art


 * 1) Arhitecture
 * 2) Peinture

Notes

References

Further reading

External links

See also

This is what we use in Wikiproject Anglicanism for Member churches:

Official name

History

Membership

Structure

Worship and liturgy

Doctrine and practice


 * Ecumenical relations

References

Further reading

External links --Secisek (talk) 02:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I will use this structure of article. --Vojvodaeist 09:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * where to put information about arts and arhitecture?--Vojvodaeist 09:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

List of the Eparchies of the Serbian Orthodox Church
I transfered the list of the Dioceses to a new article List of the Eparchies of the Serbian Orthodox Church, as it was very long. I added a link in the Structure section. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Good decision.--Vojvodaeist 13:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

evolution theory
Does SOC accept Darwin theory of evolution or believes in Creationism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.232.182 (talk) 17:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? Gingermint (talk) 04:10, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Dioceses
Another site additionally lists the following dioceses:


 * Zletovo and Struma, Ser. (Shtip);
 * Ohrid and Bitola, (Bitola);
 * Skopje Skoplye, (Skoplye),
 * Serbian Orthodox Vicariate of Skadar (Skadar),

Nikola 23:27, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * These locations are all in the Republic of Macedonia and likely the ones disputed with the Macedonian Orthodox Church. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   19:20, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * What, even Skadar? Nikola 07:18, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, didn't notice that. That's obviously in Albania... dunno. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   00:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I added missing Dioceses according to the official site of SPC and the official site of Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric. I deleted one Diocese of Canada because there were two on the list, while there is only one at the SPC site. I also added full names of bishops and some missing dates and cathedral names in the table. Vanjagenije (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Iconoclast and Iconostasis
make sure to note the difference between an iconoclast and an iconostasis --24.2.242.93 05:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Changed sentence.
Changed this:


 * During the 2004 unrest in Kosovo, about 300 Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were damaged or destroyed.

Into this:


 * Since the arrival of NATO troops in June 1999, 156 Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries have been damaged or destroyed. During the 2004 unrest in Kosovo, 35 Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were damaged or destroyed.

Alan.--90.240.48.13 (talk) 22:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Saint Andrew
Is not the founder of Serbian ortodox church. The serbs hase okupeted this church. In the time of Saint Andrew there whose no serbs on this earth. Is beter to finde the real name of the founder of the serbian church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) -using the IP - 16:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Really what for this is standing here? I think that St. Sava is enough to stand here. He get autocephality from some other church and establish Serb. Ort. Church. If someone want to go further in past Christ is founder of Christian church. :-) But I will not remove this. Let someone more involved in topic do it. --User:Vanished user 8ij3r8jwefi 12:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Divine Liturgy
What form of the Divine Liturgy does the Serbian Orthodox Church use? Gingermint (talk) 04:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Orthodox Church of Alexandria
I was unable to disambiguate that one as there are seemingly more churches with this designation. Somebody with knowledge of the subject? :-) --Ruziklan (talk) 23:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Orthodox Church of Alexandria - The throne in Alexandria was founded by St. Apostle Marcus in Egipt - 3rd Century AD. There is also a SOC parish of St. Sava in South Africa - Johannesburg. Parish of Saint Sava was founded in 1957 and the Christian Orthodox temple of St. apostle Thomas was errected in 1974. In the begining this parish was uder the protection/jurisdiction of the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Western free world, later it was under the protectorate of Metropolitan for Australia and New Zealand. Today it is under the Patriarchate of Alexandria with a special protectorate status of his Holiness Serbian Partiarch Pavle. Regular church services are held mainly in Serbian/ old Slavonic languages as well as in English. Serving priestes are from Serbia appointed by his holiness Patriarch of SOC with the blessings of his beatitude Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and the whole of Africa. Serving priest also reports to the Matropolitan of Johannesburg and Pretoria. Kartworxsa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kartworxsa (talk • contribs) 13:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

20 Million Plus!?!
How are there "20,000,000+" adherents of the SOC when there are only about 12.5 million Serbs in the world?Gkmx (talk) 20:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

YEp, i was wondering the same thing. Apparently this number is more than exaggerated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.114.1.85 (talk) 12:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I have found the source about the total number of Adherents. IT`s 7.000.000+. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572657_4/orthodox_church.html  iadrian (talk) 11:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Not only Serbs are members of SOC, there are also many other nations that are members of this church (Montenegrins, Vlachs, Aromanians, Roma, Macedonians etc.) Vladar86 (talk) 13:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Montenegrins and Vlachs are not anymore since the independence of Montenegro and the recognition of the confessional(24.03.2009) rights of the Vlachs(Romanians) in central Serbia reference.iadrian (talk) 10:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Most Montenegrins are still members of the Serbian Orthodox Church, even in Montenegro, and there are also SOC populations in Bosnia-Herzegovina (30%?), Croatia (11%), Slovenia (2%), and Macedonia (Not completely sure, perhaps 100,000? in the Ohrid Archbishopric maybe more or less). Support for the Montenegrin Church is low (30% of the population) and this group, like the Macedonian one, is outside of the Orthodox Christian Communion. I generally don't try to limit the statistical numbers for Orthodox Christians, but the Serbian Orthodox Church really only has about 11.5 million members, making it the fourth largest Orthodox ethnic group if one combines all the Greek(<21 million) Churches together, after the Russian (<150 million) and Romanian (<25 million) Churches, followed by the Bulgarians (<10 million) in fifth place. That takes into account both the population in Serbia and the Serbian Diaspora. The book by Bishop Ware, updated in the 1990s, gives the number as 9 million.--98.237.10.54 (talk) 23:01, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Eastern European calendar: Naming proposal
On this glorious Easter Tuesday, united around the world, here is an update on the progress of the ballot.


 * Option 1 - Meletian calendar - 1 vote (recommended option)
 * Option 2 - New calendar (Eastern churches) - no votes (this option is not recommended)
 * Option 3 - No change - 2 votes (this option is not recommended)
 * Option 4 - "Revised" Julian calendar - no votes (this option is not recommended)

To vote by proxy, write QUICKVOTE and sign with four tildes. If you want your proxy to vote in a particular way, add the option number in brackets. Thus QUICKVOTE (1) means your vote will be cast in favour of Option 1.

The tilde is the wavy line ~ sometimes placed above n (in Spanish) or a or o in Portuguese where, following the medieval Latin copyists, it marks the omission of a following letter n.

This is not the place to vote. Click on this link Talk:Revised Julian calendar, read the manifestos and then add your votes underneath the others.

Uma Paschoa muito feliz a todos. O povo unido ja mais sera vencido. 212.85.12.219 (talk) 16:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Expand
THE SERBIAN SCHOOL IN THE CULTURE OF THE VILAYET--Zoupan (talk) 03:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Serbian Orthodox Church. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130208051631/http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/europe/serbia/serbian-orthodox-church.html to http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/regions/europe/serbia/serbian-orthodox-church.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 11:06, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It is working.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  18:26, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Serbian Orthodox Church. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110722120759/http://www.stsavanyc.org/english/e11/stsava.html to http://www.stsavanyc.org/english/e11/stsava.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at Sourcecheck).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 07:18, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The archive is a dead link.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  18:27, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Listing bishops
I do not think that we should list the current bishops at this article. Bishops are already included in the articles on bishoprics. We may create a List of Serbian Orthodox bishops.--Z oupan 23:15, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Feel free to move the list from the article.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  20:27, 5 October 2016 (UTC)