Talk:Serer religion/Archive 1

Tone and NPOV failure
This article, seems to be written by a Serer person who is boasting about their religion. See wikipedia NPOV tone doesn't matter how much you love your people you still have to observe this tone. And it actually makes the article more believable. I would read NPOV over propaganda any day.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 13:01, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hello Halaqah,

Nice to see you here too. If I may address the two issues you have raised. The first one is the "dubious discuss" templates you placed on the article. Perhaps you overlooked the fact that, that was a sentence and two sources were provided after the sentence. Here they are for your information:
 * Gambian Studies No. 17. “People of The Gambia. I. The Wolof.” By David P. Gamble & Linda K. Salmon with Alhaji Hassan Njie. San Francisco 1985.
 * Hugues Jean de Dianou. Culture et Civilisation. Ethiopiques ,Numéro 13, 1978. Revue Socialiste de Culture Négro Africaine. Frédéric Mistra et Léopold Sédar Senghor.

For your perusal, I will add a third source:
 * Godfrey Mwakikagile. "The Gambia and Its People: Ethnic Identities and Cultural Integration in Africa", p11. Godfrey Mwakikagile, 2010 ISBN: 9987160239.

I hope that is settled to your satisfaction. I now like to address the NPOV template you have placed on the article. I totally agree with you in that, there should be no place for propaganda on Wiki, especially religious propaganda which is why I have been trying to get the Muslim and Islam articles to fall inline in accordance with Wiki's policy. The same for the Muslim brotherhoods of Senegal articles as well as the 19th jihadists like Maba Diakhou Bâ. Therefore, I totally agree with you and I'm glad you have raised that issue. Most articles are initially started by people involved before other editors also start to contribute. For example the Islam article will initially be authored by a Muslim etc etc. As such, there is no crime in a Serer being the intial author of the Serer Religion article. As per Wiki's policy, people have different interests. Please "assume good faith". There is no boasting on my part when authoring this article. The article has been sufficiently sourced which I'm sure you can see. Further, the article is an ongoing project. If there is anything you object to about the neutrality of this article, please stated it here with your sources. I thank you for the "interest" you have shown to the Serer Religion article. I would be delighted to hear any other recommendations you may have for this article. Thank you.Tamsier (talk) 13:21, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You will be advised not to look at other badly written articles for your inspiration. I have not visited Muslims and have a 1st interest in African topics. If you are aware of NPOV then start by not putting Bias and Islamphobia racism in the article "The Serers have also killed and defeated many prominent African Islamic Jihadists over the centuries." Or Islam is "foreign" it makes no difference how many references you add, the opinion is a violation of NPOV. Arabized Berber did not bring Islam to Senegal is it is a factual error. and the tone is unencylodpedic and downright unprofessional. As you have stated on the Muslim site, it is a turn off. But looking at your extreme bias I have no idea what info you were trying to insert there. You can equally find from white intellectuals academics an opinion which says "Africans were savages", I do not think you can (just because of 2 books insert that opinion). It still has to have a reliability factor. and not give a bias. In this article there is only Serer are Good people, Muslims and Wolof,etc and Christians are terrible people. That is called race supremacy, and Wiki will not have it Neither will most Africanist editors. Personally I never heard of the Serer religion, I only know Muslim Serer people from Gambia. So I have no unique bias against it. But I do have a bias against propaganda, Islamic, Christian, Black or White propaganda. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 13:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * To the contrary, the Serer Religion article has been thoroughly sourced with several reliable sources in accordance with Wiki's policy which you can see for yourself. Unlike the other articles afformentioned, they are mostly full of religious propaganda and unsourced propaganda for that matter.  It may be helpful if you can assist these afforementioned articles e.g. Muslim, Islam, Muslim brotherhoods of Senegal Almoravid etc.  I am certain that if you only spent a fraction of the time and the diligent and enthusiasm you have showned to the Serer related articles e.g. Serer religion, Serer people etc, these articles will come upto standard.  As for your claim that "Arabized Berber did not bring Islam to Senegal is it is a factual error" may I remind you that this is your opinion.  We go by sources here.  If you have sources to substantiate your claims, please bring them here. Otherwise please stick to Wiki's police. As for your other claim that:

"Serer are Good people, Muslims and Wolof,etc and Christians are terrible people." This is merely your opinion. In fact that article make no such claims and hardly mention Wolof people or Christians in the context of your edit above. In fact, Wolof people are hardly mentioned period. Where islam is mentioned, it is mostly mentioned in a historical context with sources and/or where muslims are mentioned, they are mostly mentioned in the Serer religious festivals in comparison to muslim festivals from their actual arabic words. Again, if you have any notable sources for your account, please do provide them here. Tamsier (talk) 17:55, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Clean up and change tone
I have quickly gone through this article and restructured it, It is a lot better now in terms of tone. I think the pending issue remains the Almoravid victory. And I would like to ask for reliable sources from known scholars who have a background in Africa and this specific region. Thornton, Asante, John Hundwick, Diouf, like that. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Undid edit by Halaqah. Never delete notable and reliable sources just because you do not like the author
Tamsier (talk) 08:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You do not delete edits with verifiable sources just because you do not like what the author of that source says. Elisa Daggs as you well know is a notable author and totally distinct from the fashion designer/editor you googled. Here is the book for your perusal since you cannot do a elemetary research and here  and is reviewed here as one of the best books to read among with other authors on African history as well as African politics.  You do not delete quotes from notable sources as well as the sources just because you do not like what they say.  You are not above Wiki's policy but merely an editor just like anybody else. Do remember that. It is evident that you have no knowledge or expertise on Islam in Senegambia.  Although expertise is not necessarily a qualification for editing, it certainly does help.  What is even worst is that, you have no knowledge about the subject whatsoever never mind the expertise.   I may perhaps overlook your lack knowledge but what I cannot overlook is your blatant disregard for policy and respect of sources as well as pushing for your own islamic propaganda by deleting anything that paints Islam in a negative light, even if they are sourced and even if they are small quotes from a reliable and notable author.  You are not above Wiki's policy no matter how many friends you have here who you can call to your aid. Among other qualities I respect editors who edit with integrity and you  have none.   Your behaviour over the past few days i.e. your continual edit wars with me due to your deep rooted hatred of me reveals your weaknesses. To even go and delete reliable sources just goes to show you have no clue no matter how an experienced editor you think you are.  Your lack of basic knowledge about Islam in Senegambia is evident since the talk page on Senegal. In that article you also deleted sources and commented that the Almoravids (Arabized Berbers) didn't bring Islam into Senegal without any sources whatsoever other than your own opinion. Even one of the editors noted that before I started editing that page. This is basic knowledge.  What you thought was my edit in your persistent edit war against me was not even my edit.  It was already there before I even started editing that page. In fact, that editors edits were very pro-Islam and talked about how Islam came to Senegal peacefully. If only you taken the time to read you would have realised that that was not my edit.  I merely put the "citation needed" tags because certain sections were not sourced.  Let this be your last warning.  Your blatant disregard for policy, edit warring, deleting sources and edits and pushing an Islamic view by deleting anything that paints islam in a negative light as well as calling to your troops to defend you in complaints and discussions has gone on for long enough.  You are not above policy. Remember that.
 * Please do a compare before i started editing and look at the article before and now. And tell me again about "totally destroyed the Serer religion article" . Please do the same for Serer people. The downside to your issue is proof of your accusations. Your own evidence works against you. I challenge you to find one pro-Islamic, comment I have added to wikipedia. (I have taken out anti-Islamic PoV pushing, I do not recall adding to much to anything religious. So again I will warn you about your civility and attitude to other people working here. i feel doing so, is a waste of time, since you have ignored other warnings to AGF. Edit the article not the editor(s).

Before putting any more references to this person, or other unknown reports which are poorly published, not reviewed anywhere, of no academic standing. Please put the reference before Reliable sources/Noticeboard so we can verify if they can be trusted. You see when people write books, (anyone can do that these days) it is not an automatically qualification of accuracy. Very easy to write a book. Who is this person, where do they teach, what is their background to make authoritative comments on religion? Where is the peer review, even the book is selling at no one has reviewed it. Pretty sad for the author. Per Amazon the author has two books, and per the ebay preview of the book they are a fashion person. As for who brought Islam into Senegal see [Islamic State Power Sengal] see Molefi Asante History of Africa, See John Hundwick (any book on the region). See also history of Fulani people. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 09:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

As for your link, the link mentioned nothing about who brought islam in Senegambia. It is merely about muslim communities in Senegal. I am quite baffled that you want to refer me to Asante considering the fact that I haved used Asante's as a source ("The history of Africa: the quest for eternal harmony. Routledge. 2007. ISBN 0415771390") in the Serer people's medieval history section and you added a "cherry pick" ("relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group") tag on that section here. It was not until I asked you to justify your reasoning with sources here which you didn't do which led you to remove the template here. What happened next was instead of dealing with the issue, you started another discussion topic in the Serer people talk page here. As for the history of the Fulani people, I hope you are not referring to the Wiki article, because if you are, sorry but it doesn't tell us anything about who introduced islam in Senegambia as you can see for yourself here. In fact, there is not a lot on their history either. Now if you look at Asante whom you have referred me above, the Fula and Toucouleur people fought on the side of the Almoravids during the islamic jihads of the 11th century. If you don't mind me giving you a little bit of advice, please make up your mind; settle issues before moving on to others and read on the subject so that you are better familiar with the subject before arguing with people who are specialists in this subject or placing unncessary tags on Serer related articles. I would be more than delighted to work with anyone who is very "sincere" about improving Serer related articles or any Senegambian or African articles for that matter as long as they add value to such articles. Tamsier (talk) 15:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC) Tamsier (talk) 03:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Do refrain from talking about my attitude and civility and discuss the article. Take your own advise.  Per the links I have provided above, it shows that Elisa Daggs's book is notable and reviewed by her peers who recommeded it for reading on African history along with other respectable African history authors (see link above). Besides, Martin Klein made a similar statement in "Islam and Imperialism in Senegal" does that mean his account is also not notable in your eyes?  How about Issa Laye Thiaw is he not notable either?  What about Henri Gravrand etc? All these are not notable to you?  I rather believe the accounts of these professionals and highly respected scholars than a wiki editor who knows nothing about the subject especially the editor who tries to push their own view (original research), unsourced view for that matter that the Almoravids didn't introduce islam in the Senegambia when all respected scholars proved otherwise.

There is discussion going on in Serer people's talk page that affects this Article.
There is a discussion going on in the Serer people's talk page that affects this article. It is titled Traditional religion. You can follow this link: Tamsier (talk) 11:52, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

overly detailed template
Out of interest, I would like to know why the editor (Halaqah) who put in this tag deem it fit to do so? If this is detailed then I wonder how he would class the Islam article and other religions.

Tamsier (talk) 21:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Report on Clean up - Where is the Ndut Initiation?
The symbol of Ndut Initiation is in the article but where is the information on this rite of passage in all of this text? As before you can A and B and ask yourself which one is better, it is not a subjective question (per wiki policy). Not to mention easier and more pleasant to read. As a student of history/culture I can now read much of this article and quickly get the point. contrary to above conspiracy theories I am here to 1st learn this info. I cannot learn anything with propaganda text. Some more images would be nice.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

POV issues
I've been reading this and other articles relating to the Serer, and the feeling I get is that the information here is being presented to us in a way that suggests that Serer culture is or was far more sophisticated than it actually is. On this page in particular there are several references to and a gallery of pictographs which are apparently indigenous, but the only reference is to phonecia.org, which does not appear to be reliable. Searches on Google and JSTOR turned up nothing. I think that some kind of task force composed of French speakers (not including Tamsier, who has written virtually everything about the Serer on Wikipedia and has an attachment to these articles) investigate the content and tone of it all. Eladynnus (talk) 19:20, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Eladynnus. Thank you for your contribution. That is the work of the anthropologist professor David Moranz. If you have any RS that substantiate your claim, please bring it here so that it can be evaluated. Every section of the article has been sourced with reliable sources. If you disagree and have a contradictory rs, please free to bring it here so that it can be evaluated. Not everything is in google, not everything has to be "Anglophiled" to appeal to someone's sensibilities. This issue has raised at ER as well as imbedded in Wiki policies, see also systemic bias. One more thing, it is not your place to criticise the culture of a race you surely know nothing about. You would not do that to islamic or christian articles, so please do not bring it here. If your issue is content, you are more than welcome to comment on the issue here so that we can get it fixed per RS but do not criticise the culture or religion of a race you surely have no clue about about. I hope that is clear. Other than that, you are more than welcome to help improve the article if you have any R.S that substantiate your claim. The more the merrier. By the way find below a sample of sources which actually deal with Serer civilisation and culture which I believe to be your main point of criticims :
 * 1. Becker, Charles: "Vestiges historiques, trémoins matériels du passé clans les pays sereer". Dakar (1993). CNRS - ORS TO M : here is an excerpt of the document
 * 2. Descamps, Cyr, "Contribution a la Préhistoire de l'Ouest-sénégalais
 * 3. Gravrand, Henry, "La civilisation Sereer, vol.1, Cossan : les origines", Nouvelles Editions africaines (1983), ISBN 2723608778
 * 4. Gravrand, Henry, "La Civilisation Sereer - Pangool", vol.2, Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines du Senegal (1990), ISBN 2-7236-1055-1


 * We have a dedicated team of editors in French Wikipedia who would not allow unreliable rubbish, but also are dedicated to fighting systemic bias or being judgemental which is a big issue in English Wiki. If you decide to come and join French Wiki I am sure you would be more than welcome. French Wiki is very inclusive and not obsessed with Eurocentric pov unlike English Wiki. I wonder why? It is a French thing. One more thing, it is customary to notify an editor if you have mentioned their name on a talk page or discussion they have no idea about. I hope that helps you for next time. I hope I do not sound blunt in my reply. I do not mean to be, just stating a matter of fact. I am far more tolerant than I used to be, and would be delighted to cooperate with anyone interested in improving not just Serer and Senegambian articles, but African articles as a whole. Since you seem interested in Serer religious articles, you might like to take a look at Serer creation myth and pass your jugement.


 * Once again that you so much for contribution. Best Regards.Tamsier (talk) 03:04, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The claim that the French wiki is superior to the English wiki is silly enough, but that this would have something to do with the French nationality is laughable. You're claiming systemic bias in the same breath with which you proclaim that one nationality is superior to another one. As for this article and this tag, I happen to agree with the removal (though your edit summary is, as usual, insulting): I don't see how for instance the images in the article skew its neutrality. Drmies (talk) 12:54, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I could understand if there was little attestation of Raampa on the internet. However, there is none except for the phoenicia.org citation, which itself does not seem to be a trustworthy source (I haven't seen it in citations about any other Phoenician topics) and which makes some very dubious claims about Linear A. I will find the appropriate tag and use it shortly.Eladynnus (talk) 08:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Tamsier, I am somewhat offended by your suggestion that I am automatically biased simply because I speak English and edit pages on the English Wikipedia. I believe that this and related articles suffer from, among other things, an extreme lack of concision and oversight (for example, you are literally the only editor of the Serer topics template and are the author of all the content in many others, which you have marked as top-importance on the Gambian and Senegalese wikiprojects). I have also noticed that you are quick to remove tags which might cast an article's quality or objectivity into doubt. Taken as a whole, this situation smacks of impropriety and it is because of this that I added the tag and suggested that a group of French speaking Wikipedians examine these articles. Please bear in mind that just being aware of systemic bias does not free one from it; this is just as true for you as it is for me. Eladynnus (talk) 08:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Eladynnus, I was going to send you a longer reply with diffs but I had a crash so I will make it as short as I can. Not short enough but there you go. Most Serer articles I have created have their corresponding French article which have been gone through by experienced French editor (who are more tougher than English). You are more than welcome to go through my French userpage and all the articles I have listed there and you will find that I have actually invited them to go through them and they have done so (see their edit history). The Raampa thing that you are going on about is actually the work of the anthropologist Moranz because it was available on the net, I thought I made a link to it, but I could have easily cited many scholarly works including those of BIFAN, Gravrand's - "Le Symbolisme sereer : Mythe du Saas et symboles", etc. The Raampa are Serer religious symbols. Raampa itself is not English, not French, not even Serer-Sine language but a Saafi word from the Cangin group who are ethically Serers. You seem to come here assuming a lot of bad faith but even worst passing judgement on a culture you surely know nothing about. Serer ultra traditionalists care less about Linear A or anything of a sort. The Serer traditionalists are proud of their Black African herigage. They do not look to Egypt, they do not look to Rome or to Arabia via Islam to feel validated. I think you are mistaken the Serer traditionalist with other ethnic groups or other people from other parts of the world. I have never ever met a Serer traditionalist who looks to Egypt or anywhere else. The Serers are proud Serers (Black Africans) not Egyptians or Carthagians, so please don't panic. The Raampa pictographs are religious pictographs rooted in Serer symbolism. In French Wiki, the Raampa was actually cleaned up and arranged properly after going through the source by an experience French editor from the Saafi article I previously added it in , and here I am giving her credit as I add  it back to the Serer religion article . French Wiki is tougher than English. Unsubstantiate claims or rubbish will be deleted if not tagged as needing citation. As you can see in one of the sentences in Saafi's lead where the editor added a citation needed tag and in her edit summary she says : "sources for the Gambia not found" . Not everything is in google at a click of a mouse or that sources only have to be in English. I suggest you read Wiki sourcing policy. You cannot hold Wikipedia or Serer, Senegambian or any article to ransom by hoping that someone who speaks French will pop-up and do your work for you. I have heard it all before but I have never heard that one in all the time I have been on Wiki. :) With respect, and no offense meant, it is not my problem if you cannot read French. The French language is not my mother togue eiter, but I have to learn it and still learning it (not perfect but ok) so do the same. Now I asked you a question, do you have other reliable sources that substantiate your claim? Or is this just one of those drive-by-tagging and Spider-Man episodes? So that you know, I do not own these  articles. If you find other ways to improve the article with reliable sources, by all means be bold and just do it. Go ahead and improve it. It saves you and me and every body else time. But you cannot hold articles to ransom. I have never head of that. Tamsier (talk) 14:31, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Tamsier, what happens at the French Wikipedia is not relevant to this conversation and your repeated assertion that what we produce here is untrustworthy and inferior is not constructive. In addition, your comments about what "ultra traditionalists" think about Raampa suggests that you don't even believe the article you cited is true! You cannot just ignore the parts of a citation that you disagree with. It is for this reason, and the reasons I discussed above, that I feel some kind of oversight is needed. Eladynnus (talk) 01:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to edit war with you over a tag, frankly I do not have the time or patience. I hate edit wars and find them rather distructive to the project. I asked you for sources but you have provided nothing. I am also finding it rather difficult to understand your last comment. It is not making sense like the former. You also came here hoping some French speaking editor would come and do the work for you. You formerly placed the same tag and I removed it even another editor says that your tag was unjustified. Yet, you went and placed the same tag again. My advise is that you read the neutrality policy and Wiki policies in general before placing tags. I have couple of issues for you which you may be able to help me with. You placed the tag on the top which indicates you doubt the neutrality of the whole article or a major part of it. Question : what are you going to do to improve the article? Tagging is the last resort and you have to do something to make it better rather than just tagging. Considering I have told you to be bold and improve the article with RS, you have done nothing so far, you did not even leave an edit summary on your first tag. Since you have an opinion about this article, I would like to know how you are going to improve it? Or must we all be patient and wait until Eladynnus can find a French speaker? No offense, but do you know how ridiculous that sounds? At present, you have done no edit to the article other than trying to force your view on the talk page and plastering tags on the article. Why don't you just be bold and improve it since you clearly have an opinion about this religion? I am not stopping you. I don't own this article or any article on Wiki. If you have ways to improve the article or the project, then by all means just go ahead and do it rather than being disruptive and placing unjustifiable tags just because you can and it is the easiest thing to do. Oh wait! Don't tell me you have never edited an article before? I give you one day and if I do not see any attempt from you to improve the article (the "things" that you take issue with) and remove the tag, I will remove the tag myself. And if you replace the tag I will report you. This project does not need drive-by-taggers. Tamsier (talk) 03:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am very busy today and don't really have time to explain myself, but I ask you to refer to WP:TIND. I am not a drive-by tagger and you are not in a place to issue ultimatums or reverse edits simply because you disagree with me. Also, contributing to Wikipedia means more than just editing an article - I am drawing attention to what I perceive to be POV and quality issues. Eladynnus (talk) 18:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If you believe there is a POV or quality issue, then go ahead and fix it. I have told you that many times. If I see an unref article for instance, I add refs. If I see an error, I fix it. Sure, all articles can be improved but you have made no attempts to improve the article other than placing inappropriate tags to it just because you can. I am not going to waste my time having these meaningless "discussions" with you. I have neither the time nor the inclination. You have a day.Tamsier (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone has just placed this article under speedy deletion (an IP user). Somehow, this has never ever happened to this article before until you've showed up and started placing tags. All the editors who contributed to this article so far have tried to improve it in one way or the other, even the ones I have had disagreements with have always provided proposals. What just happened has never happened to this article before until you showed up. Very strange. I've removed the speedy deletion template. I have been assuming lots of good faith but vandalising Wiki articles is not a nice thing to do. I 've also removed your tags. If you are really interested in improving the article (since you have an opinion about it) go ahead and improve. You do not need to tag it. I will be filing a report if this continues. Tamsier (talk) 02:54, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Please call this to the administrators' attention, I've been saying for days now that that is needed. Tags are not vandalism (except maybe deletion tags placed on an article by a never-before-seen IP editor - good thing you were there to undo it a few minutes later!), and it is improper to remove tags as quickly as you do in these Serer articles, and especially without saying so in your edit summary as you did in this most recent edit here, instead only saying that you have reverted vandalism. Eladynnus (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Although I could have been more detailed in my edit summary (I give you that), I did so in my edit summary and made reference to here . What I find strange is that, this has never ever happened before. Inspite of all the previous disagreements, which were finally all settled amicably by all the major previous editors on this article, such a thing has never ever happened before until now. I have great respect for many of those former editors including Halaqah (who in the end we finally made our peace and got on). I have also expressed my respect for Halaqah on their talk page and elsewhere in spite of all the previous disagreements. I am sure if he was here he would be just as disappointed at just what happened. This has never ever happened before until now. Very strange. Looking at the IPs contribution, it looks like it was specifically directed to this article because I could find no contribution log as of todate where they have "contributed" to another article apart from this one IP 70.94.83.11 @ 02:18, 21 July 2012 on Serer religion. I have looked into Whois and here are the IP's details. I think admin would be able to do a comparison analysis to find out which computer it came from and whether a registered editor also uses that computer.Tamsier (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT - For the attention of other editors, I have added an additional reference to the Cosmology section where a disputed fact template was added by the editor above (including a POV template on top of the article) here, here and here. My additional ref can be found here. Here is also a link discussing Serer religious symbols, in particular the star of Yoonir the symbol of the Universe in Serer cosmogony and cosmology "Tracing memory: a glossary of graphic signs and symbols in African art and culture". By Clémentine Faïk-Nzuji Madiya, Canadian Museum of Civilization, Canadian Centre for Folk Culture Studies. I have the book but it only appears here in snippits. Sorry about that. The deity Roog is the Supreme being in Serer religion. These symbols comes from Serer religious symbolism. The Saafi people call it Raampa in their mother tongue. Anyone with a little bit of understanding of Serer culture would know that the Saafi language partains to the Cangin group. Their language is not even Serer though ethnically they are Serers. For more on Serer religious symbols and symbolism I refer other editors to the sources cited, see also Serer creation myth which also addresses this issue. I have nothing to add to this. Trying to vandalise this article which many editors have contributed to breaches WP:vandlism and I advise the vandal to stop otherwise they would make their life hell in here. No one likes vandals. Tamsier (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Tamsier, I ask you once again to cease removing the tags on this article. Eladynnus (talk) 10:34, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have taken this to Dispute resolution and will now leave it in their capable hands. Tamsier (talk) 21:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify the IP question, it is only CheckUsers - see WP:CHECK who can look at IPs and they will not link an IP address to an account for privacy reasons. Phoenicia.org is not a reliable sources and holds some copyvio material, so should not be linked, let alone use as a source. As an Administrator I see no vandalism here, but a difference of opinion. However, I admit to some involvement with these articles and Tamsier and in the past have expressed my concern that interpretations have been presented as fact. Dougweller (talk) 09:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Placing this article under speedy deletion among other things constitutes vandalism. Anyway additional ref was added to the images in question. As stated above, the external link is availabe on line hence I linked to it. But another ref has been used to cite images. The inclusion of photos / images are now cited in full. My response to Dougweller can be found in the DRN discussion here. Thanks.Tamsier (talk) 15:21, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The tag was a one-off by an IP. I still see no "other things" that can be considered vandalism. Removing a pov tag during a dispute is almost always frowned upon. Dougweller (talk) 08:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It is noteworthy to mention that Dougweller is a highly involved Wikipedia administrator. See Dispute resolution I raised concerns, Fringe theory notice board I tried to ask a question and my talk page. Tamsier (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is true, but I'd rather say I'm an involved very experienced editor whose questions Tamsier is refusing to answer. Administrators are allowed to be highly involved so long as they don't use their tools in their own interests. My experience both as an editor and Administrator tell me that other than the IP's action, there is no vandalism here. Dougweller (talk) 15:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that Tamsier was blocked for 3 months after a community discussion and is now retired. Dougweller (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Numbers
Do we have any? says for Senegal Ethnic Groups: Wolof 42 percent, Serer 15 percent, Diola 10 percent, Fulani 9 percent. There is also a Malinke minority, as well as some French, Syrian and Lebanese.

Religion: Muslims 94 percent, Christians 5 percent, some Senegalese also practise traditional African religions.

That's only 1%, and if any besides the Serer follow an African religion, it's a pretty small number of Serer in Senegal following their traditional religion. Dougweller (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That's from in fact, and Senegal is the only country mentioned with Serer.. Dougweller (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have stated this before and will state it again (as those reading might suspect) the way Serer is represented on Wikipedia is in serious contrast to how it is represented in reality. For a people who have more text on them that the world renown Maasai, and even Amhara and even Zulu, you would expect to find websites dedicated to them, hundreds of books (in English) about them, numerous references in West African historical books-- Yet I only know them from the word of one dedicated editor and one deceased author Gravrand, Henry. The notability concerns me. I am not the first to ask these questions. esp when it comes to this Serer religion. It does not add up! If 94% of Senegal are Muslim (for example) and Serer are X percent, which religion are they practicing? Some of the books quoted in the Bib Make ZERO reference to them  --Inayity (talk) 03:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that may be overstating it a bit, and some of this may be because they live in former French colonies so are more prominent in French literature. However, I have a good book entirely on them written by an American academic and there are a number of English language sources, eg. However these articles suffer a lot from a number of problems. First, most are basically translations of the French Wikipedia originals with no attribution(and thus copyvio), although Tamsier did make some major additions to the French versions. Secondly, sources disagree with each other drastically as to the origins of the Serer/Sereer and that is not shown in the articles, which basically (and at times with contradictions) attempt to make them appear as old as the earliest source without disclosing the fact that the sources don't agree. Some of the translations are bad and change the meaning of the original French text. At least one was a PDF where Tamsier must have chosen the 'translate this document' option and Google garbled what was obviously a scan - as I wrote at Talk:Serer ancient history, I found

"These are the traces left by the proto-populations with which the Serer people have been in contact with "when they (the Serers) were the (Irenus) of Futa" (previously Tekrur)." This makes no sense, as Irenaeus was a Bishop and there doesn't seem to be such a word as Irenus. However, when you look at the actual article (and not the Google translation which says Irenus and may be the source of this nonsense) you can see clearly that the word is venus (not the goddess). You then get something much more sensible, " These are the traces left by the proto-populations with which the Sereer were in contact when they came from the Fuuta. According to countries sereer, these remains are different:"

This makes sense, see which says "Serer Communities before Conquest by the Gelwaar The oral historical record, written accounts by early Arab and European explorers, and physical anthropological evidence suggest that the various Serer peoples migrated south from the Fuuta Tooro region (Senegal River valley) beginning around the eleventh century, when Islam first came across the Sahara.41 Although our knowledge of the pre-Islamic Fuuta..." Dougweller (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The French article, mainly written by another editor, has this correct. Dougweller (talk) 14:29, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * And the source doesn't say "previously Tekrur" either. Dougweller (talk) 14:38, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

To enlarge on the above: He wrote:

"I. les vestiges de populations anterieures.

Il s’agit des traces laissées par les proto-peuplements avec lesquels les Sereer ont été en contact lorsqu’ils sont venus du Fuuta. Selon les divers pays sereer, ces restes sont différents :

- les mégalithes de latérite taillée, plantés en structures circulaires, avec des pierres frontales implantées en direction de l’est, ne se rencontrent que dans une petite partie de l’ancien royaume du Saalum. "

Google translates this as

"I. vestiges of anterior populations.

These are the traces of the proto-populations with which Sereer were when they came in contact Fuuta. According to different countries Sereer, these remains are different:

- Megaliths carved laterite planted in circular structures with stone front located towards the east, are found only in a small part of the ancient kingdom of Saalum."

Bing translates it as:

"I. the vestiges of past populations.

It's the traces left by the proto-peuplements with which the Sereer were in contact when they came from the Fuuta. According to countries sereer, these remains are different:

-chipped laterite megaliths, planted in circular structures with frontal stones implanted in the direction of the East, occur only in a small part of the former Kingdom of the Saalum."

Past populations is the key phrase here.

There are other problems such as how Gravrand is used (and his use for matters outside his expertise), but these are major enough. Dougweller (talk) 05:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

According to this book, 85% of Serers are Muslims. A Lonely Planet guide says "most Serer have adopted either Christian or Muslim faith," although no numbers are given. Eladynnus (talk) 16:58, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, it's my personal belief that a lot of the article's flaws come from extremely selective quoting and misrepresentation of Gravrand's and other authors' writings, such as the careful use of the present tense while citing texts that are old or discussing historical rather than contemporary Senegal to give the impression that the Serer religion is more widespread than it actually is. I also wonder how many Gravrand citations are Serer legends and epics that he wrote down rather than actual historical research. Eladynnus (talk) 17:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Basically oral tradition, with some historical research. But look at :
 * "Yet a closer look at other sources sheds a more nuanced light on Siin’s deeper past, with implications for its more recent history. Archaeology, for instance, suggests links with neighboring tumulus- and megalith-building societies, and trans-Saharan trading spheres beyond (S. K. McIntosh and R. J. McIntosh 1993; S. K. McIntosh 2001). Next, historical memory paints the region as a vibrant cultural frontier, shaped by migrations and cultural fusion. Oral traditions are rife with narratives of sweeping population movements from the north and the south, and trace the emergence of a kingdom to Mandinka migrations in the 14th century (Becker et al. 1991; N. Diouf 1972; Gravrand 1983; Sarr 1986- 1987). When documentary sources pick up the story, they depict the Siin as an active participant in Atlantic exchanges early on, and a more modest player after the 17th century," Gravrand, R.-P. H. 1983. La Civilisation Sereer. “Cosaan,” Les Origines. Les Nouvelles Éditions Africaines, Dakar.
 * So if this is correct, Gravrand says Sine|Siin is a 14th century kingdom at the earliest. Dougweller (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct.Eladynnus (talk) 07:10, 28 August 2012 (UTC)