Talk:Seven Society/Archive 1

Untitled
It's not clear from the article what "UVA" actually is. I'm assuming it's a university, but which one? Joyous 16:00, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * University of Virginia

William and Mary
William and Mary also has a Seven Society. Is it known if this is a simple impersonation or if the two are linked in any way?

On a hunch, I'd guess there's no connection. So much of the Sevens is specific to UVa (e.g. the chapel bells playing the Good Ol' Song upon a member's death, their UVa-focused recognitions/donations) that it doesn't seem logical/necessary for them to start a "W&M Branch." I suspect the W&M group was "inspired" by the Sevens at UVa. --EEMeltonIV 20:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Known members?
Since members are revealed upon death, by the ringing of the chapel bells and placement of the Society logo next to their obituaries in the alumni magazine, might a list of known members be an interesting project? Tjarrett 03:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * An all-inclusive list would probably fall under What_Wikipedia_is_not -- however, notable people who were also members would be worth mentioning. --EEMeltonIV 03:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion. Making a note to start this list once I get more than the one name (John Lloyd Newcomb) that I currently have. Tjarrett (talk) 16:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Er, and Frank Hereford.Tjarrett (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like Frank Batten was also a Seven, though I don't know if it was verified yet. The UVA Chapel bells did the whole 7 Society thing about an hour or two ago, though. 71.62.74.31 (talk) 19:43, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If Batten was a Seven, no one told the alumni association. His obituary makes no mention of it. -Tjarrett (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Wesleyan Mystic Sevens
I am greatly reducing the content about the Wesleyan group from the article. The sole citation to support the claim of a connection between the societies does not link the Mystic Sevens with the Seven Society, but rather with Beta.14:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Restructuring
I never liked the way the article was structured, with all the content in the lede. So I pulled out the contributions information into its own section, moved up the notable alums, and moved the non-UVA content to the end.

Along the way, I addressed a few other issues: Tjarrett (talk) 19:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Deleted uncited claim about "tapping"
 * Provided alternate origin stories

Moved one sentence that seemed to refer to traditions to the paragraph on traditions and suggested calling 'university contributions' 'philanthropic gifts'. I understand that painting the logo is on campus is generally understood, but such a statement really should have a reference.03:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the contributions--I cited that statement. Tjarrett (talk) 15:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
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Students
This article is listed under the student section of the general Secret Societies entry. I believe most people think the Seven Society is at the very least predominantly alumni/administrators/"adults". Is there any evidence that there are ANY students in the Seven Society?
 * I wonder if the section is named well. Would 'Collegiate' be better? Tom Harrison Talk 13:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that there are NOT any students in the Seven Society?

It's speculative either way. I think the main reason people suspect a heavy, if not complete, alumni/administrative involvement is the sheer amount of money they dole out. But these are folks who don't realize that there are several other student groups on Grounds that spend as much as the Sevens seem to. Yes, these endowments often are sustained by alumni donations, but students cut the checks from the cash generated by the principal. --EEMeltonIV 13:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Whatever is asserted has to be supported by verifiable citation to a reliable source. Tom Harrison Talk 14:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, this being a secret society, there are no verifiable citations. Or at least very few. For example, we know for a fact that the chapel bell tolls seven times with a member of this society dies. (I've heard it.) From rumor, I know that there are seven undergraduate members of the seven society at any given time. Thus, when one graduates, a new member is induced to take his place. I have no citation for this. Basseq 17:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess you might write an article about what you know and get it published in a reliable source. Some things by their nature cannot be written about in Wikipedia. Secret societies may be one of them. Maybe there are other venues. Tom Harrison Talk 18:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Tom Harrison is taking the issue of quality in Wikipedia too seriously here and not grasping the concept that the Seven Society is an important part of tradition and experience at the University of Virginia. There are plenty of things that we do know about the society, it just seems that not many users have come out to add this information.  There are many other pages that need serious quality upgrades - have you seen the dunkin donuts page about brazilians?  travel forth away from here!User:Lindsayt930

Non-UVA secret societies with the numeral Seven in their names
Okay. This is an article about the Seven Society at the University of Virginia. Brief mentions of other organizations called "Seven Society" are fine, as long as the discussions make clear the relationship or lack thereof to the main topic of the article. If someone wants to start a new article, "Seven Societies" or "List of Seven Societies," that's fine, but this is no place for dumping information about every secret society with seven in its name.

Accordingly, here's my suggestion for how we can get along:
 * All such brief mentions of other organizations should go in one section. I don't think it's appropriate that there be a separate section for every society with Seven in its name.
 * If there is a provable connection with the Seven Society at UVA and the group being discussed, state it and cite it. If not, don't weasel in "alleged but unproven" connections (WP:AWW)
 * If there is a connection between the other group and the University of Virginia, state it and cite it. In this context, the chain (albeit fragile) between the Mystical Sevens and Beta Theta Phi at UVA is appropriate.
 * If there's no other connection, and the society has its own Wikipedia article, put it in the See Also as a simple link.
 * If there's no other connection, and the society has no Wikipedia article of its own, start the article or delete the content. Otherwise it doesn't belong here. I'm lookin' at you, Seven Society (Order of the Crown and Dagger), William and Mary.

Does everyone agree? Tjarrett (talk) 14:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the section on other societies should be as small as possible. I very much agree that weaselling is inappropriate. I also think the bogus 1826 claim does not belong here, but since it's referenced, I left it there. However, I do not think that keeping it to Virginia, (University), or Virginia, (State), is really the criteria. The only society to directly emulate the Seven Society is at Missouri, so I added that. I just took a stab at trimming the Mystic Seven paragraph to the bare essentials. I don't think that any reference to the Mystic Seven is really relevant, (I think there's no connection at all), and it all should come out, except, --everyone always mentions it, --it may explain the propensity for having seven-named societies, --it does explain the naming of the Missouri society.LesleyAnnWarren (talk) 16:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I wish to add that I very much disagree to the assertion that "No connection between the societies has been shown, but there is at least some tradition in the use of the names." There is INDEED very strong evidence that shows a direct link between the Mystic Seven Society's Hands and Torch Temple at University of Virginia and the latter Seven Society.  I have a screen shot (from 2003, see below) of UVA's electronic library catalog clearly showing that old manuscripts from the Hand and Torch society were clearly in possession of the Seven Society and requiring Seven Society permission to have access. I verified this when I went to the UVA library that held the Mystic Seven papers and the librarian told me I could not see them without written permission from the Seven Society. Oddly enough the entry has since had all references to these manuscripts as being Mystic Seven from the University's electronic catalog.  In addition, if you look at some of the earlier UVA Corks and Curls (yearbook) when the Seven Society started out you will also see the Hands and Torch emblem, perhaps a little nod to their origins.  Notice also the Seven Society seal.  Infinity, Alpha and Omega--forever and ever Seven.  Some of the older seals are also signed with the seven planets under the Arabic numeral 7. Coincidences? I think not. The two most likely scenarios are: 1)During the merger between the Hands and Torch Temple with Beta Theta Pi a few members either decided to not go along with the merger and founded the honorary society, or 2) they went along with the merger, became Beta Theta Pi members and wanted to keep the Mystic Seven traditions alive as an honorary organization.  They might have even sought to model their endeavor after the mother society in Wesleyan.  The Wesleyan group petitioned and became members of the Delta Kappa Epsilon Fraternity as did the Genesee College (now Syracuse) branch of the Mystical Seven). The Wesleyan DKE members continued the Mystical Seven as a honorary senior group (emulating Yale's senior society structure). The Wesleyan Mystical Seven senior society survives to this day--note this is not the same group as the the "new" group Benjamin Greene and Chris Kylin are members of). I'm just putting this out there for the record and in the spirit of what Wikipedia is for so others can evaluate for themselves how factual the current Wikipedia entry is. Taminos (talk) 17:20, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Let's keep our criticism focused on the problematic assertion in the article ("No connection between the societies..."); I don't think the whole entry suffers from factuality issues. I would happily work to include some of this information in the entry, if any of it could be identified to a reliable source. Speculation based on old Corks & Curls illustrations are not sufficient to illustrate a connection between the societies. It's important to keep this stuff verifiable. -Tjarrett (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Chapel Bells
The entry claims that the chapel bells chime seven times on the seventh dissonant chord at seven past the hour. This is true. But it also claims that it does so seven times. This is not true. I work immediately next to the chapel. In fact, looking out the window, I see that I work closer to the chapel than anybody else. And I can assure you that it always chimes far, far more times. Just now it chimed 51 times, for instance. Given that the citation for this fact doesn't actually mention the chimes, I've removed the cite and, while I was at it, removed the "seven times" claim. My guess is that the number of chimes is the year that the member graduated from the university (in the case of today's ringing, 1951), but that's only a guess. --WaldoJ (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. There's some confusion in the official sources about this, for instance, the endowment of the carillon by the Sevens specifically requested a toll of seven times seven bells (that is, 49 bells) on the passing of a member--this is cited in the Gifts section below. But if you counted 51, who's to say they're still following this rule? As the "seven bells at seven second intervals" claim is uncited, it's better out of the article. --Tjarrett (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

RFK
According to Sandy Gilliam, Secretary of the Board of Visitors, the fact that RFK was a Seven is merely rumor. This information appeared in the Cavalier Daily 11/10/2005. I've made the change to the article. Basseq 16:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Found a 1968 newspaper article that appears to contradict this. Will reach out to Mr. Gilliam with the citation from the Fredericksburg paper and get his input. -Tjarrett (talk) 03:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, here's my note to Mr. Gilliam:

Mr. Gilliam: ...Your name came up in conjunction with a historical matter that I hope you can help me resolve. The question is whether Robert F. Kennedy was revealed as a Seven Society member on his death. There is conflicting evidence on this matter. In 2005, a user edited the article on the Seven Society to say that Robert F. Kennedy was identified as a member of the Seven Society in 1968 through the traditional means (placement of a wreath of black magnolias, chapel bells chimed). This information was apparently used for a 2005 Cavalier Daily article on secret societies to name RFK as a member of the society. Then in late 2005, another user updated the article to state that RFK's membership was a "rumor" with "no concrete evidence" to support it, and the claim was removed entirely later. On the discussion page for the article, the user stated that he had spoken to you concerning the matter and you had advised him that RFK's membership in the Seven Society was a hoax. I would be happy to let it stand there, were it not for a June 1968 in the Fredericksburg Free-Lance Star that appeared in Google News recently. In an article about UVa's commencement a few days after the shooting, the article states: "Gov. Mills E. Godwin Jr. led a round of college commencements across the state numbed by the slaying of Sen. Robert F. Kennedy....Godwin acknowledged that the 'shadow of a national tragedy' hung over the commencement exercises at the University, where the New York senator was a law school alumnus and -- it was disclosed Saturday -- a member of the ultra-secret 'Seven Society.'" The article may be found here (link). I'm interested in verifiable facts for the purposes of the article and am not interested in reintroducing rumors to Wikipedia, but the 1968 newspaper article lends credence to the notion that Senator Kennedy was honored as a deceased Seven. Do you have any further information you can share or sources you can point me to regarding the matter?


 * and here's the reply:

He was not a member of the Seven Society. Flowers apparently did appear at his grave (the Seven Society at the time placed wreaths primarily at the locations of funerals [e.g., at a church] and not at graves.) The Chapel bells were not tolled at the time of his funeral. After learning of the hoax, the Seven Society publicly disavowed Senator Kennedy's "membership." I'm sorry that this story continues to circulate; it does no one any good.


 * On the basis of this information from Mr. Gilliam (who is now University Historian), I think we can put the matter to rest. If I can find a reference to the Seven Society's public disavowal I'll note it here as well, but for the present keeping it out of the article seems the right thing to do. -Tjarrett (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)