Talk:Severn Estuary

Brown mud
I just visited England last week and took a side trip to Wales. When we crossed the Severn Bridge the water was completely brown! It was the strangest thing we had ever seen...and when we came back 5 hours later, it was still brown and muddy. We wanted to know what causes that? Janet Maffucci Jaymaffucci (talk) 13:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We Brits think that the muddy brownness would be caused by brown mud in the water. But seriously, it is a feature of the Severn and arises essentially from the high tidal range, the funnel shape of the estuary, and the resulting turbidity of the water.  It's worth a mention in the article, so I'll find a suitable reference and add it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Appropriate when seen in the light of recent flooding. Acquaduct (talk) 04:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What recent flooding? A characteristic of the Severn, also the Usk and the Wye, is that in recent years their large tidal range has led to a lack of local flooding.  Once these rivers were managed (roughly by the '70s) in order to cope with their spring tide ranges, the floodwater capacity needed to deal with that meant that a little excess rainwater was inconsequential in comparison. They're pretty secure against weather-related flooding. The Wye valley has seen recent flooding, notably at Tintern, but this has been from the tributaries to the Wye, not the Wye itself. Compare this to the Parrett, which is on such flat land that it has little excess capacity - that's where the problem flooding has been.
 * Of course, if the weather conditions should manage to over-top the tidal defences, then any flooding will be very major. The Caldicot and Wentloog Levels have an incomplete sea wall around Goldcliff which has twice come close to its limit, a year apart. Newport had a similar problem on the same two tides and there was a risk of millions of pounds of improvement happening to it. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Definition
What is the source for the assertion that "in navigational and cartographic terms" the Severn above the SSC is not part of the Severn Estuary? It's not just the Severn Estuary Partnership that regards the estuary as extending further. See for example the VisitEngland website. Even the image illustrating the article shows Beachley as on the estuary. Mhockey (talk) 22:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I may have written those words some time ago when I was less concerned than I should have been about recording my references! I believe it is broadly true, although there will always be different views.  I'll see if I can find suitable references, but if you wish to modify the text I wouldn't object.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I have amended the text - including moving the bit about the Severn bore, which only occurs on the estuary in its widest definition. (I have not as yet changed the text in the River Severn article.)Mhockey (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal
There is a very small uncited article about the Severn Escarpment which I feel properly forms part of the geography of the Severn Estuary, therefore I am proposing to merge that article into this one.&mdash; Rod talk 21:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the content would fit very naturally into the article on the Severn Estuary (or the River Severn). The escarpment is after all some miles from the estuary. If the expression Severn Escarpment has some defined meaning (although it's not an expression I've heard outside of WP, and a couple of websites which probably derive from WP), let's have some sources and expand the article.  If not, I would suggest deleting it. Mhockey (talk) 08:54, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK any contributions to expansion or citation would be great. The reason I proposed it is that I'm working my way through WikiProject Somerset/Cleanup listing & and trying to sort the problems but User:Erik9bot has identified Severn Escarpment as unreferenced and I can't find any sources to use to reference the information or expand it. If no one else can find anything then I suppose AfD is the way to go.&mdash; Rod talk 09:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK I've removed the merge banner but Severn Escarpment still needs expansion & referencing if anyone can help.&mdash; Rod talk 12:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Mouth of the Severn
The Ordnance Survey use this name for that section of water between what they label as the River Severn (around and above the 2 crossings) and the Bristol Channel to its west. It also appears (perhaps as a derivative of its OS appearance) in the map currently illustrating this article. Does anyone know about the pedigree of this name? Does it refer perhaps to the section downstream of English Stones (now the site of the 2nd Severn crossing) so far as the Lavernock/Sand Point line? I feel it ought to be mentioned and perhaps expanded upon in either/both the Bristol Channel and Severn Estuary articles. cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:50, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know why OS use that term in preference to the more common term "Severn Estuary" - but I agree that a reference to its use by OS should be added in this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have definitely heard before reference to the Second Severn Crossing (probably more sepcifically English Stones) being the start of the Estuary. --Simple Bob (talk) 18:00, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Have now added that mention of the Mouth of the Severn (beyond existing inclusion in small map)! Geopersona (talk) 11:27, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

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Returning to the definition
The lede currently states: ''The Severn Estuary. . . is the confluence of the River Severn, the River Wye, the River Usk, the River Avon, and other smaller rivers.'' I've a problem with that insofar as it's not really a confluence (is it?), but rather an extended body of tidal water into which those named and un-named watercourses separately empty themselves. Noting also that there is no link to the estuary WP article, I'd suggest something along the lines of:

'The Severn Estuary (Welsh Aber Hafren) is a funnel-shaped expanse of tidal water between England and South Wales into which the rivers Severn, Wye, Usk and Bristol Avon flow.'

Any thoughts? Geopersona (talk) 13:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that "confluence" is a strange description - probably borrowed from the article on the Humber which is an estuary formed from the confluence of the Ouse and Trent, not the estuary of a single river. And by some definitions the Wye flows into the River Severn, not the estuary.  So how about this:
 * 'The Severn Estuary (Aber Hafren) is the estuary of the River Severn in the south-west of Great Britain, flowing into the Bristol Channel between England and South Wales.'
 * and add a sentence under "Geography": 'On the Welsh side the rivers Wye and Usk flow into the estuary, and on the English side the River Avon enters the estuary at Avonmouth.'--Mhockey (talk) 22:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Better, but I would probably write: 'On the Welsh side to the north, the rivers Wye and Usk flow into the estuary, and on the English side to the south the River Avon joins at Avonmouth.' Otherwise, it refers solely to political rather than physical distinctions, and duplicates the word "estuary".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:02, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks - all useful thoughts though the sides might better be described as 'northwest' and 'southeast' given the estuary's NE-SW alignment. Note too that (depending upon where you place the estuary's upstream terminus) the upper part of the 'Welsh side' (i.e. upstream of the old Severn crossing) is in England! Geopersona (talk) 16:58, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * How about: ".... on the north west (partly Welsh) side....  on the south east (English) side...."    Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've now been bold and made those changes, though some further tweaking may be required. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I somehow omitted to get round to doing anything. That's certainly an improvement but I suspect you're right - we may wish to tweak further. cheers Geopersona (talk) 16:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

More definition: navigation vs physical geography
I've just found my way here via the very dubious claim on the Second Severn Crossing page that it is the upper limit of the estuary, and now I see there has been much discussion of the definition already.

Looking at the definitions given here, and the references given for them, I'm wondering if maybe navigational charts have been misunderstood or given undue weight? A navigational chart is interested in defining navigational waters, not in defining places and geography. If it is trying to define "Severn estuary", it is not trying to give us an encyclopaedic definition of the estuary of the River Severn, or the area that will commonly be called "Severn estuary", it is trying to define a navigable area.

The article intro defines the Severn Estuary as the estuary of the River Severn, not as a navigable area. It's certainly worth mentioning and describing the navigable area definitions in the article, but at the moment it feels like they currently have undue weight compared with the physical geography definition of estuary. 10:20, 5 February 2022 (UTC)