Talk:Seychelles/Archive 1

Definite article
Is Seychelles plural? Seychelles or the Seychelles? &mdash; Instantnood 19:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it more properly Seychelles or the Seychelles? That is, History of Seychelles or History of the Seychelles? I notice they're not all in agreement. e.g. Demographics of Seychelles vs. Economy of the Seychelles. --KQ 20:58 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT)
 * Short form "Seychelles", no direct article. Long form "Republic of Seychelles". Here's their ministry of foreign affairs. --Brion 05:30 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)

I think that, as with most archipelagos, common use is to add "the". As in "the government of the US Virgin Islands decided that.." or the "the team of the Maldives were defeated by.." etc. The official French name (French is spoken there) is also République des Seychelles, which I would also translate with Republic of the Seychelles... Anyway, it doesn't really matter, as long as the use is consistent. Jeronimo
 * Yes, and Canada is le Canada in French. On va au Canada. Voici le site web du gouvernement du Canada. But, we're speaking English here, and the official English name does not have an article, neither for Canada nor for Seychelles. Informal usage with "the" is not uncommon, but what can you do? --Brion

Yeah, the French always use articles for countries, I kinda forgot about that... But in English, it is also common to use articles for plurals: the United States, f.e. But if the official name appears to be without the, so be it. Jeronimo
 * The impression I get from looking through dictionaries is that if I'm talking about the islands, I can say "the Seychelles (islands)", but if I'm talking about the country (which of course covers the same ground, no?), I probably should prefer to say "Seychelles". Furthermore, I'm unsure about pronunciation... my tendency would be to say "the say-shells" but "say-shell" or "the say-shell islands", but this may just be me. In any case, the official name of the country, for good reason or not, is article-less and that's that. :) --Brion

So the pages should be without "the" in the title? --KQ 14:10 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)
 * I say yes. If you're paranoid, make redirects that have "the" in em. --Brion 03:54 Sep 9, 2002 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I'm doing this and then going to bed.  --KQ 04:05 Sep 9, 2002 (UTC)

I don't know where you folk have been, but I virtually NEVER EVER hear them referred to anything, but the Seychelles. "Seychelles" on its own is frankly bizarre. A bit like talking about "Falklands" or "Vatican" without the article. --MacRusgail (talk) 17:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It sounds odd to me as well, but I've checked the London Gazette and the country was apparently just called "Seychelles" when it was a British colony too. People were appointed "Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the Colony of Seychelles". Here's an example. So it's obviously always been the official name. That's the beauty of Wikipedia - you learn things every day. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Level of Corruption

 * Is it worth pointing out that Seychelles (or "The" Seychelles, if you prefer) is one of the most corrupt countries in the world?


 * According to Transparency International Seychelles is ranked 55th cleanest country out of 158. And as 55 is closer to 1 than it is to 158 I disagree with your statement (though I do agree that there is some corruption and that it should be eliminated). RajivShah 18:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I used to live in Seychelles and family living there, and we say Seychelles, The Seychelles and Seychelle Islands. Im not sure what the official line is, or if it is acceptable to use either. I agree that the redirects should be implemented. And yes, corruption has been a great problem since independance, although the official line says that all has been well hah... Marc

My mother's first name was Seychelles. And she pronounced it "say shell" not "say shells" With a silent S.  Is that not how the island chain is pronounced? Thekevinmiller 01:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * in french the s is not pronounced —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.172.141.127 (talk) 19:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Eastern Africa at WikiProject Council/Proposals whose scope would include Seychelles. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Naming of Seychelles
Much of the following is questionable, and even if it were true, it clutters the article:

"Some historians have claimed the islands were named after Jean Moreau de Séchelles, the French finance minister appointed in 1754. However, he resigned in 1756 (the year the islands were claimed by France) when he showed signs of senility attributed to over-fondness for ladies."

From the French Wikipedia article on Moreau at http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Moreau_de_S%C3%A9chelles: "Il fut victime d'une congestion cérébrale en mars 1756 et François Marie Peyrenc de Moras, son gendre, fut désigné par Louis XV pour le remplacer." Translation: He was the victim of a stroke in March 1756 and François Marie Peyrenc de Moras, his son-in-law, was designated by Louis XV to replace him. No strange tale about womanizing and dementia. Maybe it did happen, though, and it would be pertinent to an article on Moreau, yet why's it pertinent to an overview article about the Seychelles? It'll have to be for more than the following reason:

"Historian Marcel Emerit suggests it was the alliances of his daughters that led to the name Seychelles. His elder daughter married the Chief of Police and the younger married the Minister of Marine, Marquis de Moras who succeeded Jean Moreau as Minister of Finance. Morphey originally named the island of Praslin as Ile Moras, showing he was well aware of the political changes of that year."

Presuming this is true, how does this contradict the first assertion ("Some historians have claimed the islands were named after Jean Moreau de Séchelles")? If the daughters wanted to name the islands after themselves instead of their father, it was totally lost on just about everyone, who thought it was named for their father. They probably wouldn't have named it after other Séchelles either since the historic family was unrelated to their father (see his article).

In the end, what appears on the Seychelles government's website (http://www.virtualseychelles.sc/pages/vs_ie.htm) should appear here and nothing more: "The islands were named after Jean Moreau de Séchelles, Louis XV’s Minister of Finance." I'd argue that you need more than one historian's musing (preferably those more up to date as well, since Emerit was early to mid-20th century) in a confusing context (since what he wrote doesn't seem to contradict the standard story about the name) to say something different. Even if it were determined that the name came from elsewhere, it deserves only one or two lines of note in this type of article. Extra details should go to the history article. RemiCogan 13:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Number of islands
The article says in the lead section that Seychelles is "a nation of 115 islands". In the "Geography" section, however, the count is "41 islands, of which 33 are inhabited." Would someone please edit the article to clear up this discrepancy? JamesMLane t c 14:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Now, the lead section says 158 islands, but the Geography section says 115. It's still inconsistent!

It sounds a simple question: “How many islands are there in Seychelles?” Yet there isn’t a simple answer. Nowadays, most people use the number 115. This is partly my fault because when writing for Spectrum Guide to Seychelles I decided to try to produce a definitive list. At this time the number 92 was quite popular while some people opted for a more vague “over 100”. I went to the Survey Division and they kindly furnished me with a list of islands. I totted them up to 115 and published the list. Voila! 115 QED! Or was it? The Constitution of the Republic of Seychelles was published a few years later. It listed 155 islands. I have switched to using this figure but most people still use 115. Maybe they think 155 is a misprint? So, we have a new definitive answer, what could be more authoritative than the Constitution? Except this figure is wrong, too. For a start, we have the seven new reclaimed islands since the Constitution was written. These are Ile Perseverance, Ile Aurore, Romainville, Eden Island, Eve, Ile du Port and Ile Soleil.

So, there are 162 islands? Unfortunately that is wrong too, because we have lost a few. African Banks used to consist of two islands but South Island has gone. St Joseph Atoll lost Banc de Sable following a storm a few years ago, while Pelican Island has gone the same way as the pelicans and become extinct. Grand Carcassaye and Petit Carcassaye have merged to form one island. Perhaps we should call it Tres Grand Carcassaye?

Now we are back down to 158. Mind you, there are some islands with no name at all. There are six at St Joseph Atoll alone, so far from losing islands the atoll has a net gain compared to the Constitution. Cosmoledo has even more islands with no name in the Constitution. As for Aldabra, the atoll has arguably more than 100 islands on its own.

What ever the definition you use, the situation is a dynamic one. Even without global warming islands come and islands go, some quicker than others. But perhaps for the sake of argument, the Constitution is as good a reference as any, so until its updated I'm sticking with 155! Adrian Skerrett

Population count inconsistencies
Aaron does not agree with this article! Re-write it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.189.254 (talk) 02:48, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I'm new here and I apologize in advance for blundering in, but I cannot figure out how to start a new Contents title for discussing some population count inconsistencies:

This page: 84,000

List of countries by population: 84,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

Outline of Seychelles: 87,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_Seychelles

CIA World Factbook: 87,476 (July 2009 est.) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/se.html

I also cannot figure out how to properly format sources & links. Perhaps it's because I've not yet earned such privileges? Will someone please throw me a line? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohashisrus (talk • contribs) 08:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, in response to your question about population inconsistencies, I think that you should check the dates of when the webpages were created. Maybe the data was just taken in a different year, so I would look for the most recent population count. Also, I would try to go with the most prestigeous website - CIA World Factbook is definitely a very reliable source. If you are having problems with the sources and links, see the page related to that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Cite_errors If you already tried that, I can try to explain how to solve the problem yourself. To link a page, highlight the text you want to link and click on the grey chain button (when you scroll over it, it should say link). There it will tell you where this particular piece of text would link to. If you do not like the suggestion that it has, fill in the line yourself (be careful not to make spellong mistakes, otherwise Wikipedia will not be able to find a matching page). Then press insert link and it should work. I tend to have some problems with links myself, but the most trivial error is that sometimes, Wikipedia does not automatically insert a part of the text. For example, I try to insert a link, but it appears without this symbol > after the reference part. After you analyse the problem, you just have to insert the missing piece of text and hope it works. If you have any more questions, paste them on my page. --Highschoolpuppettier (talk) 18:57, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Area
Seychelles, with an estimated population of 84,000, has the smallest population of any African state. It is also smallest by area. Why isn't it mentioned as well? 85.217.47.47 (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Error in the number of islands.....
There are 115 islands in the (Seychelles)archipialago, not 155.It's correct in the spanish version of Wikipedia.

History

 * The first recorded movie and first written book was made by the crew of the English East Indiaman Ascension in 1609.

Certainly a movie was not recorded in 1609. And the first written book was written well before 1609, but was not about the Seychelles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.128.192.3 (talk) 21:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

History

 * "The first recorded movie and first written book was made by the crew of the English East Indiaman Ascension in 1609."

Certainly a movie was not recorded in 1609. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.128.192.3 (talk) 21:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

"matriarchal"
A more strictly correct term would be "matrifocal"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of Seychelles
I realize the Islands are named after Jean Moreau de Séchelles, as the article states, but I'd be curious to know if "Seychelles" has any literal meaning in French.Sylvain1972 (talk) 13:56, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Nope, it doesn't mean anything. It's a name derived from a toponym (place's name). Séchelles comes from the latin "casa" ("little house"). Abribus.

Seychelles info
Bold text Hiya I REALLY need help with my school work on Seychelles and I am 11 years old, does anyone have any info about seychelles in general? if you do feel free to put your questions under this text by editing it (if you don't mind!). Thanks!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mary1999snowman1 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The article has general information about Seychelles. We can't really help with your schoolwork here on the talk page, but you're welcome to ask specific questions at the Reference Desk. Rivertorch (talk) 18:53, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Seychelles is part of the Mascarene Islands???
Is this a joke? Seychelles in NOT part of the Mascarene Islands. Who wrote that? Could someone remove this please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.136.230.153 (talk) 09:23, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

La Digue
Hi, I feel that the page La Digue is no longer a Seychelles stub. Would anyone please care to re-evaluate it? Thank you. --Highschoolpuppettier (talk) 06:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Salmon?
The diagram on the right that is also shown in the article says that 74% of the exports of the Seychelles are salmon. But salmon is not mentioned in the text of the article at all. I guess the diagram is wrong (perhaps it belongs to a different country?). Is anybody able to tell what's the error and how to fix it? --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 13:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

A more up to date one at http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/export/syc/all/show/2010/ says "fish" instead of salmon. So it is the right country. I am more astonished at the idea that 10% of their exports are computers or electronics, and yet that is not mentioned in the article. I wonder if the MIT site is incorrect about this. Chymicus (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

What about older men?
Under 'Culture', the 1st paragraph ends with: "Older women can usually count on financial support from family members living at home or contributions from the earnings of grown children"

Ok, so what about older men? Who supports them?

--Atikokan (talk) 14:36, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The statement is sourced and, as far as I can tell, the source doesn't mention older men. Rivertorch (talk) 18:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Language
There seems to be a tendancy throughout this article to boost French.

However, the CIA Factbook indicates that English is the official language.

--Atikokan (talk) 14:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it may depend on what you mean by "official". Another reliable U.S. government source indicates three official languages. This page, while not a great source for citing things in the article, provides an overview of the languages, the French history, and how things got the way they are. Rivertorch (talk) 18:23, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The first hand source for the official language is the Constitution of the Republic of Seychelles. It's Article 4 on page 13:
 * (1) The National languages of Seychelles shall be Creole, English and French
 * (2) Notwithstanding clause (1), a person may use any of the national languages for any purpose but a law may provide for the use of any one or more of the national languages for any specific purpose.
 * --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 12:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion of data from the Index of Economic Freedom
The Index of Economic Freedom, published by The Heritage Foundation in conjunction with the Wall Street Journal, is an internationally acclaimed study on the levels of economic freedom in countries around the world. The Millennium Challenge Corporation, a U.S. foreign aid agency established by country, uses the study as part of their determination of funding for different countries around the world.

In addition, the index is already referenced on a number of country pages on Wikipedia, including Singapore and Mauritius. The study gives relevant information on the state of economic freedom in Seychelles, which is why it was referenced in a paragraph referring to the state of economic freedom in Seychelles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EconomicsFTW (talk • contribs) 06:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The index is noteworthy but not neutral; it is the creation of a right-wing think tank and a right-wing newspaper, and it is far from universally acclaimed. Wikipedia is a neutral party and can take no position on what constitutes "economic freedom", so I have adjusted the wording accordingly. (For future reference, EconomicsFTW, it's best practice around here to discuss before restoring a reverted edit.) Rivertorch (talk) 16:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

While I am in full agreement with you that both The Heritage Foundation and Wall Street Journal are right-wing, this does not invalidate a study highly based on facts. The wording change you made gave undue claim to the consensus that the Index of Economic Freedom differed from the norm in terms of defining economic freedom, which is contrary to the findings of a Freedom House study (Adrian Karatnycky. Freedom in the World: The Annual Survey of Political Rights and Civil Liberties. Transaction Publishers. 2001. ISBN 978-0-7658-0101-2. p. 11), which showed significant correlation between the findings of the Index of Economic Freedom and of the Economic Freedom of the World Index. As these are the only two studies listed on Wikipedia's page "List of countries by economic freedom", the Wikipedia consensus appears to be that these studies are valid sources for Wikipedia.

Regardless, I have changed the wording of the sentence to match that of the Wikipedia page on Mauritius, which defines the measures by which the Index determines economic freedom. This does not assume a position, instead allowing the reader to make up their own mind about whether or not the measured variables correctly define economic freedom.

Apologies for the rerevert. I was uncertain that you would see my explanation if I merely posted on the talk page. I hope after reading the revised version, you'll agree it's an improvement over both of our prior versions.

Warmest regards, EconomicsFTW (talk) 07:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)EconomicsFTW


 * Sorry, no. The variables you listed were apparently not a complete list of the variables, so it was misleading. Rivertorch (talk) 08:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Again, the variables listed were to maintain consistency with other country pages, as discussed in Consistency. China, Singapore and Mauritius are 3 country pages that make reference to this report and we should strive to maintain stylistic consistency.

Regardless, I have now edited the categories to reflect the 4 categories that the index of economic freedom uses to base their decisions. These are not cherry picked; they are the four overarching categories used for every country. The information is both relevant and necessary to provide the proper context for the index.

On a related note, Rivertorch, your edits have been designed to maintain a neutral tone, suggesting that the prior versions have a bias. Could you explain what the prior versions are biased towards? I'm familiar with the dichotomous nature of American politics, but I'm not sure how any of this applies to Seychelles.

Warmest regards, EconomicsFTW (talk) 10:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)EconomicsFTW


 * They suggest a possible bias toward the authors of the Index of Economic Freedom's definition of economic freedom. Consistency between articles is a good thing when the article used as the model gets it right. Otherwise, it can become an excuse for maintaining faulty content in multiple places. I'm having trouble reconciling your four categories with this wording. (Incidentally, if you can spare a few moments, please take a look at WP:THREAD for helpful advice about indenting talk page posts.) Rivertorch (talk) 12:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the indent information. I think I'm starting to understand the bias you're suggesting we attempt to avoid. However, I believe we're quite close to a neutral wording. In the context of the paragraph, with the preceding sentence discusses the rigid control that the government exerts over the economy, the important fact I'd like to get across is that the economy is currently under reform, which is in the process of opening up what is currently a heavily controlled economy. Regulator efficiency has improved consistently over the 3 years and the new reforms have limited bureaucracy, like licensing fees, that have now made starting a business a simpler prospect.


 * I agree that the term 'economic freedom' has several definitions, and the Index of Economic Freedom may not be measuring what some people consider 'economic freedom', but I'm not sure I can think of a better replacement phrase. Heritage Foundation is specifically defining it as "degree of free market-ness" or where a country sits on the scale from free market to planned economy. I would not object to replacing the term 'economic freedom' in the current sentence, but I worry that it is more likely to confuse, given that the source name is "2013 Index of Economic Freedom".


 * My current edit is designed to attempt to explain how the Index determines what they call 'economic freedom'. By the way, the four categories I referred to are the four overarching categories that the 10 categories listed on the Index's Wikipedia page fit under. You can see this here: http://www.heritage.org/index/country/seychelles I feel the current wording avoids claiming that Wikipedia supports the Index's definition of 'Economic Freedom', but rather attributes the definition to the referenced source. It's just replaced the prior "as defined for the purposes of the index" with "as measured by...". Let me know your thoughts. If we can achieve a consensus here, I can go about fixing the other country pages to properly and neutrally reference this link, as it seems to be a popular choice amongst the country pages.


 * Warmest regards,58.182.5.12 (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)EconomicsFTW


 * Thanks for discussing. Pressed for time now, but I will try to reply early tomorrow. Rivertorch (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)


 * All right, what would you think if we added "and other factors" after "rule of law"? Rivertorch (talk) 06:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I like it. Make it happen? 58.182.5.12 (talk) 09:59, 25 August 2013 (UTC)EconomicsFTW


 * ✅. Gotta love a happy ending. Rivertorch (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The highest imprisonment rate in the world
According to data kept by the International Centre for Prison Studies, 707 of every 100,000 Americans are in prison or in jail awaiting trial. That compares with 472 in Russia, 284 in Iran, 274 in Brazil, 210 in Mexico, 149 in England and Wales, 124 in China, 118 in Canada, 100 in France and 77 in Germany.

Only the Seychelles, an Indian Ocean archipelago, tops the United States at 709.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-administration-endorse-cut-drug-sentences-040207110--finance.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.108.8 (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed-- it's remarkable that they have the largest prison pop per capita on the planet and yet that's not mentioned in the article anywhere.

Additional source: http://www.prisonstudies.org/country/seychelles Richard☺Decal (talk) 05:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)