Talk:Shaariibuugiin Altantuyaa

Discussions below this
Leave your discussions below this. '' ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ  ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣  21:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Offering prayers for such a soul

 * Can we address such a person who is reportedly killed and blown up in such a cruel and inhuman manner with prayers of 'May God Bless or Forgiveness upon you?' She is not said to be a muslim but to suffer such in my muslim locality in Malaysia i feel very saddened this happens. The trial is still on, but at least for now, we or anyone for that matter can offer prayers. - Red1 D Oon (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Notability
I'm kind of stumped on the subject's notability here. As Wiki's WP:1E policy states: If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. Altantuyaa doesn't appear to have any claim to notability beyond her murder (which is why I moved the page) and perhaps that the trial brought up the names of people in the government(?), which makes me wonder why this individual murder deserves an article.  Mbinebri  talk &larr; 14:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Reverting recent edits
I've just reverted a whole chunk of removed material as the original reason given for their removal is invalid. [Bernama], [Asia_Sentinel|Asia Sentinel], AFP, The Edge Daily, [The_Star_(Malaysia)|The Star] and [Sun2Surf] (The Sun) are newspapers/news sites, not blogs. Zhanzhao (talk) 04:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Questions about the Move
Actually I don't see how having "Murder of" can be considered NPOV, considering the fact that all new reports already refer to it as a murder. The fact that it was a murder has not been disputed. What is subject to the NPOV debate are writeup of the details such as background, motives, placement of guilt and such. Also if you refer to the comment made by  Mbinebri , the subject is not notable beyond this case. In fact the page was originally without the "Murder of" heading but was moved to "Murder of ....". I.e. another case referred to as such is the Murder of Meredith Kercher article. I don't see any flags raised there, and with so many editors on that page at the moment surely that point should have raised some eyebrows? Zhanzhao (talk) 03:09, 15 January 2010 (UTC).
 * Hi Zhanzhao. Naming conventions disallow giving NPOV tilts to article names like you have done. Kindly avoid doing so. '' ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ  ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣  08:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Wifione, the fact that the subject of the article is undisputed in all the verifiable sources quoted. Even the New York times state it as such. All news sources describe the death as a murder, so it meets the "the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources" and "used by a consensus of the sources" criteria listed in the rule you quoted. By quoting the specific rule you gave, you're implying that there exists a for/against angle to whether the subject was murdered or not. I have yet to find any news source that describe it as a natural or accidental death. Your application of the wiki rule in the case here is incorrect. If you do feel so strongly against the use of "Murder of" in such articles, and are still unconvinced, you could try renaming/moving the Murder of Meredith Kercher to Meredith Kercher. I'm betting you'll get a lot of reasons why such a move is incorrect.Zhanzhao (talk) 10:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Zhanzhao, if you can show a majority of reliable sources (I'll be ok with three/four) have termed the incident as "Murder of Shaariibuugiin Altantuyaa" verbatim (aka "Boston Massacre"), feel free to create a section in the main page of the article or to go back to the earlier redirect as you had made. However, please do ensure the verbatim usage is shown in the RS. Thanks (I'm watching this page, so will reply here).'' ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ  ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣  10:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said on the other page's talk, which was conveniently ignored, per WP:BLP1E, the subject is only notable for the murder; the title type is not POV at all and is acceptable per the many similar entries in Category:Murders, and is supported in the titling policy of WP:N/CA; per the latter as well, a consensus to move to a new title should have been reached first. No consensus was attempted and no attempt to identify similar articles or specific naming policies appears to have been made.  At the moment, it looks like both Zhanzhao and I support using "Murder of..." in the title and there is clearly the precedent and policy for it.    Mbinebri   talk &larr; 14:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree - there does not seem to be a case for describing "murder of..." as POV, excpect in cases where there may be dispute as to whether such a murder ever occured (eg "Murder of Dr David Kelly). If this is a comparable case, an explanation as to why should be given. Zhanzhao does not need to provide reliable sources for the exact phrase, only for the information that a person called Shaariibuugiin Altantuyaa was in fact murdered. --FormerIP (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the links Mbinebri gave are more appropriate in context. And I am perfectly ok with the move, given the discussions held here.'' ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ  ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣  20:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

News Sources mentions of Altantuyaa Murder
Getting that exact phrase verbatim is a pretty tough order, considering that even for a recent murder like Meredith Kercher's, you won't find many exact matches "Murder of Meredith Kercher" as is verbatim. However, the following should more than suffice.

New York Times "..who was behind the murder in October of Altantuya Shaariibuu.." 

Bernama.com: "..case of the murder of Mongolian national, Altantuya Shaariibu." 

Repost of Straits Times article "..murder of model Altantuya Shaariibuu"

Asiaone News "..murder of Mongolian woman Altantuya Shaariibuu." 

Channelnewsasia "..murder trial of Mongolian woman Altantuya Shaarribuu" "..Setev Shaariibuu, the father of model Altantuya, 28, who was murdered.." 

Skynews.com "murder of a Mongolian model", "Altantuya Shaariibuu's murder"

Jakarta Globe "murder of a Mongolian translator", "The attractive translator, Altantuya Shaariibuu, was murdered..." 

New Straits Times "...the murder of Mongolian model Altantuya Shaariibuu." 

TheStar Online "..the murder of Mongolian national Altantuya Shaariibuu..."  "..the murder of Mongolian national Altantuya Shaariibuu..." 

MySinchew.com "An explosive expose of the Altantuya murder...." Zhanzhao (talk) 13:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No issues. I appreciate your effort in replying to the discussions. Thanks Zhanzhao. '' ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ ―Œ  ♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣  20:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)