Talk:Shadow Hearts

Trivia source
Yeah, I have no idea how to do this but I did find the trailer that implies that Nicolai is the main character of SH2 ( at the bottom). It's actually quite hilarious because I saw it after beating the game and being like WTF? Anyway, any help on telling me how to cite it or whatever? Axem Titanium 02:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"Harmonixer"
this is going to seem fairly trivial but, "Shania, who has the powers of the Harmonixer as Yuri did"

now while shania has the power to fusion and change shape as yuri and kurando both have in the past I don't believe the powers are the same for yuri and kurando, the powers were dormant within them and merely had to be awoken or unlocked to tap into the power while for shania's fusion ability she has to contact and defeat spirits external to her for them to bind their power to her

didn't make the edit cause I'm not sure if my point is valid


 * The word "Harmonixer" never appears in Shadow Hearts: From The New World. Shania calls it contracting with the spirits of the land, and with the trials you have to go through in order to gain the spirits, I'm inclined to stick with her explanation.  I, personally, would phrase it "Bearing similar powers to Yuri the Harmonixer, Shania can lend her body to the spirits of the land."  71.31.194.26 05:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Old Stuff
(Note: Moving the unsorted earlier comments into a general "old stuff" category.)

Heh. Wrote this article long ago, and I return more than a year later to see it's blossomed. A few comments/questions, and explanations on some specific changes I made.

"Disheartened by the political friction within Sacnoth, as well as the financial condition of SNK, Kikuta resigned."

I rewrote this to mention the fairly critical fact that the game was a failure, and tried to hint that assuming it was true that he resigned due to disgust at having his work compromised, he would have been forced out anyway. This is Japan, after all, I'm sure we've all heard of some of the rather draconian punishments for failure in the corporate world they have there... look at Gunpei Yokoi for one example. Also note that the Koudelka section was rewritten by 24.87.12.54 on July 17th fairly extensively to have a much more pro-Kikuta view; Koudelka is not my area of expertise, but can anyone else confirm their statements?

"However, fans of Alice Elliot need not fear, for Alice still has a vital role in Shadow Hearts: Covenant."

This seems to be near a spoiler, and seems an odd thing to have in a more encylopedic entry. For way of comparison, would the back of the book for The Two Towers assure readers that fans of Gandalf won't be let down?

", although the game has been made much more mainstream than Shadow Hearts and much of the creepy atmosphere is gone. "

While it's par for the course to include somewhat subjective comments in items like video game articles, this doesn't quite sit right. I'll grant that SH2 had somewhat more humor than SH1, but SH1 leavened its horror a good bit too. It feels a bit like a comment added to the end by someone who was dissapointed in SH:C. Maybe I'm totally out of line here; say if so.

Anyway, I deleted the above two passages. Most of the rest are flow items, things like moving the historical reference back to the bottom of the article again (since it was awkwardly sitting beneath SH:C before). One other thing to consider:

"Other characters include Gepetto (a puppeteer and his puppet Cornelia), Blanca (a wolf), Princess Anastasia (of the Russian Romanov Dynasty) Lucia (an Italian fortune teller and aromatherapist), Kurando (a swordsman and fledgling Harmonixer), and Joachim (a strange vampire wrestler who is also the half-brother of Keith from Shadow Hearts)."

Is this necessary? Seems like it detracts from the flow a bit to list the characters. I left it in, but I wonder if there's a better way to put it. SnowFire 02:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The following could use some revision:

-Japanese release dates. Don't have any at the moment.

-Better explanation of the Judgement Ring that's still succinct. It's hard to describe in a sentence, but the again, it's only worth about a sentence of explanation.

-"more unusual considering the seriousness of some of its subject matter and the horror elements in the setting." Can't say I like that statement. Can someone improve this bit of prose? I'm trying to express drama + comedy + horror all living together happily.--SnowFire 04:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

-Requesting to have all the games split up into seperate entries. They are all vastly different games and deserves their own pages.

Question -- there seems to be some debate about whether Halley Brancket (SH character) is Edward Plunkett's son (Koudelka character). I'm told that "Brancket" might be a mistranslation; anybody here read Japanese?

~metroid composite

- I can't read any Japanese but it's pretty much understood Edward Plunkett is Halley Brancket's father; it's just a mistransliteration. ~68.45.30.71 (Heh, I am an enigma!)

Informativeness and Flow, and 137.240.136.81 's changes
Brief History: 137.240.136.81 added a few comments to the article. JIFish reverted part (correct -> canonical and back), and I later came along and reverted most of the rest. JIFish then came and reverted my reverts, saying the other version was "more informative." This is true, but... I can't extrapolate too much of your argument for that, but an encylopedia's goal is not merely to pile information on. Narrative, concise flow is also important for people who perhaps don't want to find every single fact about the game at once, and would prefer to see a summary. It's also important for at least most of the article to be accessible to anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the subject (video games). Additionally, avoiding spoilers is also a good thing.

Now, note that I say this as someone who also made the original "Historical References in Shadow Hearts" page, so I'm all about gathering up a bunch of information to stick on Wikipedia. That said, not all of that information should be on the main page, even if perhaps it should be easily accessible. Continuing to pile information on here leads to size creep and can make the article as a whole worse.

Anyway, getting to the point...


 * However, the 'Demon of Domremy' is, of course, actually the Harmonixer Yuri from the first Shadow Hearts, shapeshifted into the guise of Amon, a powerful demon.

The change was the addition that 137.240.136.81 made. I think that it disrupts the sentence flow and adds nothing to that statement- we already know that Yuri is the "Demon of Domremy," so mentioning "a powerful demon" doesn't help. Plus, it's a vague spoiler, since I don't recall the word Amon being mentioned for some time in SH2. It does become a plot point later. It's hardly a huge spoiler, but that combined with the fact that this fragment adds very little information aside from that name leaves me inclined to not include it. The fact that this change was made by an IP Address means that it's hard to talk back at the person and inquire as to the purpose of the change on the talk page. So I just reverted it.

As for the later change...


 * Yuri, Karin, and Nicolai soon become entangled in a plot involving secret conspiracies, the Russian royal family, the Japanese foreign minister, the Émigré Manuscript, and more.

I didn't re-revert this one quite yet, but quite simply, the Emigre Manuscript is fictional, and there's no way you'd know this name if you hadn't played the game. Saying that the game includes it is like saying that my new movie includes the Faragaj book; not very helpful. That's why I prefer "the mystical tome from Koudelka." It's very clear this way that SH2 ties into the previous games' major artifacts and plot points, something not at all clear from simply saying "the Emigre Manuscript" (is this new? historical?  what?).

Anyway, if someone wanted to make a new page with "Plot Summary and Analysis of Shadow Hearts," perhaps for people who'd already played the game wanting to check up on certain parts, I'd be totally in favor of that. It could be linked it in the "See Also" section. Now, that page could legitimately contain all the information on the Emigre Manuscript, the deal with Amon, and so on in an extensive treatment of the plot of the games.
 * Well, you've convinced me. I've reverted the second part back too. Much like the reason for my orginal partial revert, we should respect the uninitiated. I have to say though, I found your revert comment a little agressive. I wasn't going to start an edit war over this (or anything else for that matter.) --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 16:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Half-brother?
Minor nitpick, but I thought Joachim was Keith's full brother. Where does it state he's only his half-brother?
 * Good question. I have added a fact tag. Hopefully someone will provide a reference. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 18:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Split
I don't see any need to split the article at this time. When the article is becoming too long or if another game is released it may be necessary to split the article. But for the moment I say: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

If anything, as I've said before, I'd be up for shaving the article down, not increasing its size. I agree with keeping it one article. Djungelurban, please at least post something as to why you think this should be the case. SnowFire 01:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
Shadow Hearts is also considered unique by its fans for its quirky style — the alternate setting of an Earth where monsters and mystical forces seem common is well-done, and the game boasts a sense of humor unusual considering the seriousness of some of its subject matter and the horror elements in the setting. -- This section strikes me as rather non-neutral, espcially the 'well-done' part. Shouldn't this be rewritten in a more neutral way? -- Bakabaka 18:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You have a point; that said, the entire statement is written in the sense of what fans think, which by definition is generally going to be positive sentiment (otherwise they wouldn't be fans). It's a bit weasaly to just say "fans," but unlike science or politics, it's not like there's an authoritative "Voice of the Fans" out there we can quote and reference.  The closest to that in gaming are critical reviews...  and gaming journalism is, uh, a suspect source at best.  Besides, Shadow Hearts was one of those games that got lukewarm reception at first, but "aged well," which makes the critical reception look worse than it turned out (contrast this with Black & White, a game that seems incredible for the first 5 hours and thus got great critical reviews, but aged very poorly after people realized it really wasn't that deep.).


 * If you have a better idea as to how to phrase it, take a shot, I just don't see one off the top of my head. SnowFire 16:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be people who agree with me that SH are great games, but who insist to state as such without citing their sources. I added a Fact tag, but I'm quite prone to remove the statement altogether again when a good citation doesn't show up soon. I'm sorry, SH:C was reviewed with an 8/10 on average, and I'm sure there's turn-based combat RPGs that've made better scores than that. -- Bakabaka 11:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Keith and Joachim -- eldest?
I removed the 'elder' adjective about Joachim Valtentine that has been changed to 'younger' and back numerous times last few weeks. I don't have any recollection of the birth order being referenced in at least the English version I played. If you change it back, maybe a reference would be nice? Thanks-- Bakabaka 11:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

After Keith's sidequest in SH where he has to fight the Golden Bat (Joachim) in order to get his best sword, you can check the Golden Bat entry in the Monster List, where it calls the Golden Bat the "oldest brother". Also, in SH2, you can check the descriptions for the Peach Bat (possibly Hilda, although she is pink in SH3) and the Silver Bat (Keith) after you meet them, and they are referred to as Joachim's younger sister/brother. Haplar 03:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Splits
This article is getting bigger, plus I want to tidy it up somewhat and expand some of the sections. I believe it may now need a split. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Go for it. I'll help whereever I can. Axem Titanium 01:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

New Sections
I agree with Axem about not making new articles. So would it be a good idea to add a section or sections about the recurring things from the series into this article? I was thinking about the Judgment Ring & Ring Spirits, the Valentine Family, and Roger Bacon and the Emigre Manuscript. I was thinking about writing this after I contribute to the other articles. Waymond Tang 04:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * A section here about recurring stuff should be great. Go for it! Axem Titanium 17:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge & Sections
If the articles were to be merged, the whole article should be re-worked. I was thinking of making sections like Games or Titles(instead of a section for each game), Common themes and recurring elements, Historical References etc. Of course this is not set in stone. I am just suggesting types of sections and not the exact names for the sections. Waymond Tang 02:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. You're doing a great job with these articles. It's always nice to see someone motivated for improvement. Axem Titanium 02:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with the merge. There is far too much information to place on this page. If anything the information should be merged into each title's respective article. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I was actually typing up Historical references on each page when I found this. There is some incorrect or missing references, but I strongly agree with the merge. But I agree with JiFish as well, they should go in their respective articles. If the decision to merge become final, place them in the right articles and fix them up myself. DSMeatte 01:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Japanese seiyu
I was considering adding the Japanese seiyu. I feel that it is necessary to list the seiyu in the Shadow Hearts-related articles. I should also note that this will improve all of the overall Shadow Hearts-related articles greatly and I will add them myself from the Japanese interwiki sites for Shadow Hearts-related articles. Sjones23 00:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If anyone adds any seiyu for each game and character, let me know. Plus, all of the Shadow Hearts articles have only the English voice actors, so I feel that adding the Japanese seiyu will greatly improve the overall articles. Sjones23 00:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus, in the cast section as well as the articles on the characters, they only have the English voice actors, so the Japanese seiyu are needed. Sjones23 00:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Page title.
I agree with the earlier proposal (not sure who made it- I suppose the Requested moves log will have it) to keep the page title at Shadow Hearts for the entire series. If someone is interested in just the first game, it's still easily accessible. SnowFire 05:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I moved it to the current title to keep with the naming convention of including "(series)" for the series article. Also, since there are only three games in the series, rather short compared to some older ones, most people would think of the first game first, rather than the series as a whole. Axem Titanium 21:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Does the Saga Continue?
I was a bit surprised in how the additions to the Shadow Hearts saga have been spread. The second one was released in 2004, and the third a year later. It has been three years since the last release and no fourth addition has been produced.

I assumed that it could be due to historical issues. Shadow Hearts: From the New World took place in 1929. So any future additions must take place shortly afterwards. But in the 1930s and 40s, Japan engauged in unrestrained conquest that forever scarred the world. If there would be a Shadow Hearts 4, Japan's brutal past must be made true, lest the rest of the world criticize them for not accepting their past as an aggressor. But at a price, the Japanese hoped to set aside their past. A game such as Shadow Hearts 4 might keep such guilt and nostalgia alive.

Could this be the reason why no new additions of Shadow Hearts haven't been released? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.89.207.91 (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The team who made the series disbanded after the third game. I think it's more that than running out of ideas. Sake neko (talk) 08:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)