Talk:Shaivism/Archive 1

monotheistic faith ...? -suggestion
Shaivism certainly IS a monotheistic faith. However, even though there are many forms of monotheism, the very widespread judeo-christian culture is familiar with only one. As Shaivism is strongly more of the Panentheism and Monistic Theism types, perhaps the affirmation of the monotheistic nature of Shaivism should be expanded to avoid misinformation, as Shaivism acknowledges many gods and the common understanding of monotheism erroneously implies only one god and one manifestation. --Subramanian 18:43, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

from Sh to &#346;
internal article going from Sh to &#346; as voted here at the village pump. As for the title, see below:
 * The link does not link to a discussion Philip Baird Shearer 09:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Requested move
Shaivism &rarr; Śaivism – the proposed name is the official IAST transliteration. Sh was used mostly back when English texts did not have the support of such special characters. The problem is, Śaivism already exists, basically with the same text. Subramanian talk 16:07, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Oppose. diacritics such as these are not usually used in English. Philip Baird Shearer 09:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Support . This is an encyclopedia, so we go for what is accurate and official, not for what is usually used. Furthermore, people typing Shaivism or Saivism will be redirected to the right place.
 * Oppose the move; Shiva and Shaivism are well accepted in English, and are accurate, in the sense that the English spelling is both phonetic and allows for an easily understood pronunciation. Diacritics aren't necessary to indicate an sh sound, and will probably just confuse folks unnecessarily. Articles should be merged at Shaivism.Tom Radulovich 17:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Hinduism Today, the widest publication on Hinduism and a strong speaker for the Hindu community, uses Ś. -- Subramanian talk


 * Oppose. Use most common name in English. Agree with comments above. Jonathunder 14:29, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

Vote result
In line with the WP:RM guidelines, after 5 days there was no rought consensus to move the page Philip Baird Shearer 06:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

This article needs a Merged not moved see Duplicate articles Philip Baird Shearer 09:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge to Śaivism. --goethean &#2384; 16:27, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to Śaivism. -- Subramanian talk 17:18, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the merged article should be at Śaivism. The consistent use of diacritics in foreign names and words, even when alternative English transliterations are available, has become the preferred practice throughout Wikipedia (as in Gdańsk, café, Götz von Berlichingen, etc.) Mkweise 19:27, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

This is not the place to vote on a merge. As the vote for the move is not to move it then one can not bypass that by voting in the discussion section. WP:UE is quite clear, use the most common name in English which is Shaivism not Śaivism. Philip Baird Shearer 06:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction and clearness
There are quite a few direct contradictions in this short (relatively) article.

I.e.: "Saivism had been in conflict with Vaishnavism, another sect of Hinduism, in the past. In spite of several efforts by well-meaning kings and saints, the cold war between the two still continues." vs "The presence of the different schools within Hinduism should not be viewed as a schism. On the contrary, there is no animosity between the schools." War vs no animosity?

Despite my education and general intellectual agility, I find this article to be barely comprehensible.

--217.153.176.154 14:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge
As no one else has done the merge since I suggested it a week ago I have done it. I looked through the history of the pages: the contents of the Śaivism page was a cut and past copy of this page (Shaivism) made by user:Subramanian on 08:00, 7 May 2005. Since that time there have been a few changes to both pages. So I have taken the changes made on the Śaivism page and applied thme to this page. I have made the Śaivism a redirect as it was before the cut and past copy. Philip Baird Shearer 06:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Agastya & Tamil Language
"Agastya, who is said to brought Vedic traditions as well as the Tamil language." Agastya brought the Tamil Language to Tamils!!!!. This is the most ridiculous myth i ever heard from the pile of ever so growing fabrication of Indian hisory.

Myth
Yes, the above is a myth and not history.

Denominations.
Denominations and sects are inappropriate terms for Hinduism, although these terms are commonly used by both academic and traditional scholars. These terms were developed to describe the various manifestations of Christianity, which is viewed, more or less, as a single religion. Hinduism is NOT a single religion. It is a conglomeration of separate religions. Therefore, Shaivism, Vaishnavism, etc, are neither denominations nor sects; they are distinct "Hindu" religions.

Denomination of Sects and Religion
Denomination is only a technical term for Name. Does Christianity really own the term “Denomination”? Sect is only an abbreviation of Section, and the term is convenient and generally understood. Why should the sub-divisions of Hinduism not be regarded as Sects of the Hindu Religion? If Christianity is “more or less” a single Religion, then Hinduism is surely comprised of many distinct “Religions”; but all of the Hindu “Religions” form a coherent whole. What is the correct term for an organized mass of Religions? If Christianity is a Religion, then Hinduism is a “Super Religion”. The term “conglomeration” suggests something arbitrary or forced. Since Shaivism and Vaishnavism both accept the same Brahman as their One God (albeit under different names), and share the same Vedas as their primary scripture, it seems foolish to insist that Shaivism and Vaishnavism are separate Religions in the common understanding of the word. Indeed, it is dangerously divisive to promote such a marked distinction of what are only traditional sections or “Sects” of just one diverse but fully unified “Religion”. Why should Hinduism NOT be regarded as a single Religion? And remember that Shaivism actually transcends the distinction of Hindu Dharma and Mahayana Bauddha Dharma. Sarabhanga 06:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Sarabhanga and say that both terms, denomination and sect, are acceptable terms within Hinduism. While the various sects of Hinduism observe many differing beliefs and practices, there are a sufficient number of common, underlying beliefs and factors that certainly make the many religions of Hinduism one in a broader sense. It's helpful to understand the modern term Hinduism in this broad perspective. See Hinduism Today's concise analysis of the Four Sects of Hinduism and the Nine Beliefs of Hinduism. --Japendranatha 05:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

'Sect,' as used within the discussion of religion, is not an abbreviation of 'section' (Latin secta vs. sectio/secare), and applying both 'sect' and 'denomination' to Hinduism brings a lot of unintentional meaning. For the average English speaker, 'sect' has connotations of dissent and sharing a core belief structure, which may or may not be accurate in the discussion of various groups within Hinduism. Sarabhanga seems to be compensating for a perceived attack of credibility on Hinduism as a Rreligion; the discussion of terminology is not an issue of credibility, but an issue of terminology from other religions connoting unintended meanings. --67.100.222.108 19:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Help with Dhuni Article
Hello, I tried by myself to create a dhuni stub, but don't know much about it. I am not sure if it is Zoroastrian or Hindu as it appears to be practiced throughout India in many faiths. Would someone knowledgable on this subject please help to expand that stub and make needed corrections? Thank you. Chris 02:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Shiva in buddhism?
text mentiones that some buddhist practice devotion to Shiva. Could someone then explan the role of Shiva in buddhism? Or was it supposed to mean that some buddhists, alongiside practicing buddhism, also practice devotion to Shiva? --Aryah 03:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know a lot about it, but it seems like the sort of thing that would come up in tantric Buddhism. There is also a certain degree of deva veneration in Buddhism (see Buddhist cosmology), but I've never heard Shiva mentioned in that context. Sorry I don't know much about this, but there are a couple ideas to start with, in case you weren't already on top of them.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!) 03:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would be really suprised if there was anything Shiva-related in vajrayana. On http://www.himalayanart.org/search/painting_form.cfm?heritageid=1&disciplineid=1 there are only two thangkas of Shiva, from Nepal, categorised as Hindu-deity, in a sea of tantric deities. Most buddhist tantrism has little to do with hindu tantra, and quite a longer history... Youre right, hes mentioned in buddhist cosmology. Im just suprised that there is any custom of deva veneration, but that could be the case, thx for the clue! --Aryah 06:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Ive found an answer to my question - posting here if anyone else found this statement of the article as inprecise as I did: " Tibetans accept Ganapatti as a wealth deity, and in general, Buddhists are permitted to practice Hindu tantric deities as long as it is understood they are strictly mundane, and that their objects, like Laxsmi, are not proper objects of refuge.

It is true that in Buddhism, Shiva is considered to have been liberated by Vajradhara in the form of Cakrasamvara, but it is not permissible for Buddhists to take refuge in Shiva in his form as Shiva.

Further, it is considered in some places that Shiva is a manifestation of Avalokiteshvara, but here one does not take refuge in Shiva directly, since Shiva is the worldly manifestation of Avalokiteshvara." http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=11384&view=findpost&p=152197 --Aryah 22:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

BKWSU
I am afraid that this might raise controversies, and rightly so, but should here be mention of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University in this topic on Shiva/Shiavism as hey call their god Shiva as well? Perhaps in the see also category? It is fairly unique for a New Religious Movement to identify Shiva as God. Thank you. 195.82.106.244 00:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Material on temple design, devotional ceremonies
These paragraphs were in the "History of Saivam" article but more properly belong here. I'll leave them on this discussion page for integration.
 * ==Temples of Saivam==
 * There are twelve ancient and most holy sites dedicated to Siva, the Jyotirlinga shrines. Of these, the most famous are Rameswaram in Tamilnadu, Varanasi on the banks of the Ganges river, and Kedarnath in the Himalayas. Two other Jyotirlingas, called Mahakalashvar, are located in Madhya Pradesh in the ancient city of Ujjain. There is another at Omkareshwar, named for the city. There are many temples in Tamilnadu dedicated to Siva, but the holiest of all Siva shrines is Chidambaram's famous Nataraja Temple. Siva's consort, Parvathi is also worshipped in temples to Siva, as are his sons Ganapathi and Murugan.
 * [[Image:Srirangam temple kopuram.jpg|thumb|left|The gopuram of the Sri Ranganathaswamy Temple in [[Srirangam]], Tamilnadu.]]

The Agamas are a set of twenty-eight books, written in Sanskrit. Each temple follows its own Agama. The architecture and layout, the locations of the images, and directions for methods of worship are all prescribed, and no deviation is allowed. Siva temples have a tall multi-storied gopuram at the entrance and are enclosed in a high wall. The lingam resides deep within the temple compound of buildings, courtyards and gardens. The lingam and the special structure that houses it are placed in such a way as to face the compound entrance directly; only the sivacharya may enter this sanctum sanctorum but worshippers gather around to witness the rituals of ablution, decoration and offerings, to pray and sing, and to receive the ceremonial blessing. Around the sanctum sanctorum every Siva temple has at least one circumambulatory path, and a procession around this path is part of the devotional service. A stone statue of Siva as Teacher, the Dakshinamurthy faces south. Dakshinamurthy literally means "on the southern part of an outer perimeter path of the sanctum sanctorum". The bronze Nataraja, Siva as Lord of the Dance, occupies the northeast corner.
 * Parvathi's stone image is usually erected near the sanctum sanctorum in a separate shrine. It usually faces south or east.
 * Ganapathi (also called Ganesha, Vinayaka, and Pillaiyar), is the son of Shiva and Parvathi. His likenesses in stone are found at the base of the flag-mast, on the southern side of the entrance and at the southwest corner of the circumambulation. Although Ganesha is important to Hindus, his worship in Saivam probably migrated from northwestern Maharashtra with the Brahmins before it came to the KOILs. Ganapathi removes obstacles, and devotions to him begin each Vedic ritual.
 * Murugan (also called Velan or Kumaran) is younger brother to Ganesha; in northern India he is known as Kartikey. Even during the Sangam age, Murugan was worshipped as "Son of the Lord under the Banyan Tree", the favourite god of the hill areas, whereas Ganesha is first mentioned in texts from the 6th century. The statue of Murugan is usually at the northern side of the entrance and just behind the lingam on the circumambulation.
 * In the circum-path, on the southern side, figures representing the sixty-three Nayanmars face north. On the western side, figures of Ganesha, Murugan, Lakshmi (the wife of Vishnu), and Saraswathi (the wife of Brahma) are placed, in that order. On the northern side, Durga, called Korravai in the Sangam age, holds the northern wall of the sanctum sanctorum. Just in front of Durga is the shrine of Chandeswarar, the accountant of the Siva household. Navagrahas figures, the planets personified, are kept on a raised platform near there.
 * ==Worship==
 * ===In the temples===
 * "Sivacharyas" conduct Siva worship services. Only the sivacharyas may enter the sanctum sanctorum, while worshippers gather at the entrance to watch. Unlike Catholic priests, sivacharyas are dedicated solely to worship and do not perform marriages or other civil rites of passage. In Chidambaram and a few other places adhisaivas are allowed to perform the ceremonies. Services are held daily, as many as six each day depending on the resources and the popularity of the temple.
 * The usual service consists of the following: first, the figure of the deity is anointed with oil, water, milk, ghee, honey, curd, various juices, sandalwood paste, and others before being showered with blossoms. Then it is dressed in the traditional way of Tamilnadu, adorned with jewels and flower garlands. Incense is burned, followed by a food offering (usually a rice preparation). Beautiful lamps of various designs are lit and presented to the image of the deity. Camphor is lit and presented. The burning camphor is then carried to the congregation. The worshippers reverentially show their palms over it before placing their palms over their eyes, some say this gesture signifies that the devotion is as precious to the worshipper as his or her own sight. Finally sacred ash and kungumam are distributed into the upraised palms of the worshippers, who touch it onto their foreheads. The worshippers then process along the circumambulation at least once before bowing low in prayer before the sanctum sanctorum, singing and reciting verses from the Vedic hymns, the Thevaram and others.
 * ===At home===
 * Salagramam is a black glossy stone naturally occurring in the bed of the Gandaki river, a tributary of the the Ganges in Nepal. Salagarmam stones vary in shape, from cylindrical with rounded ends to flattened globes, and depending on the shape, the stones represent Siva, Vishnu and others. While very big stones are chiseled into figures of gods for worship in temples, small ones are used to create personal altars for worship in the home. Around the naturally lingam-shaped stones they place offerings of flowers and food, and perform their morning devotions each day before breakfast. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Otterpops (talk • contribs) 15:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

--- Thanks! I have imported this material into the article pending further rework. Buddhipriya 15:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)