Talk:Sham Ennessim

existence in ancient Egypt
Shamm al-Nessim is only celebrated in Egypt and Sudan but that unfortunately, there is no definite evidence of its existence in ancient Egypt. I am going to remove the fake evidence that is provided in this article. --41.238.140.187 (talk) 05:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Sham El-Nessim
According to the Egyptian newsletter from the Baseera Center - "Number of the day" Issue Number 1148 from monday April 17th 2017 - the following was stated: Ancient Egyptians first celebrated “Sham El- Nessim” around 2700 BC towards the end of the Third Dynasty and regarded the day as the beginning of time. Baseera quotes as its scource: Al-Ahram Newspaper.

newsletter@baseeraegypt.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8389:4000:C900:95B6:6FE6:A336:1641 (talk) 14:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the edits by the user "Zack439", which I consider to be purely ideological
I engaged with the user Zack439 assuming good faith, starting back in 5 April 2021, when he made what appeared to be an ideological edit, and I should mention at the outset that at every step I addressed all his claims, both in the content itself with reliable sources and in the edit summaries, and I asked him to corroborate his claims with historical sources since the issue/context is a historical one, and that an article written on some website or on a religious website doesn't suffice in this context, since it doesn't cite any credible historical sources, but Zack439 kept ignoring every point that I have raised, and did not provide any reliable sources for his claims. I also incorporated a source that he himself provided. And, when he failed to provide proper historical sources for his claims, I provided a reliable historical source from the early 1800s that reports on Sham Ennessim, and provided clear quotes from the source, but Zack439 kept deleting the sources, the quotes, removed an entire section and eventually corrupted the article, which I pointed out to him in the edit summaries but he kept ignoring them. Perhaps Zack439 is not aware that properly cited content from reliable sources (WP:RS) on Wikipedia should not be removed just to push a single ideological point of view? Or perhaps he doesn't know what constitutes a reliable source?

Zack439 claimed that the festival was initiated during modernity, so I provided the historical source that reports on its celebration in the early 1800s, that reports on how it is was calculated, as well as shows that the festival is not at all Abrahamic/Christian in nature, and I remained neutral in using that source, without drawing strong conclusions. And, a distinction between being a "national festival" and being declared by the Egyptian state as an "official holiday" was made; since the Egyptian state was officially founded in modernity, to say that the festival was declared as an official holidy during modernity is redundant, and it can be redundantly said about every single official holiday in Egypt. Zack439 claimed that the festival has no continuity with Shemu, so I provided an authoritative linguistic/etymological source that shows that the Coptic name originated from "Shemu". Zack439 made claims about the food eaten on this day, so I provided a reliable source that reports on the significance of the food eaten on this day, and that the same food that was eaten by the ancient Egyptians on this day is still eaten by the Egyptians today during the celebration, and that source also corroborates the festival's origin from Shemu. He kept ignoring every single point I have raised still, and every single response to his claims, and kept deleting the sources. I also pointed out to Zack439 that using "Copts" as distinct from "Egyptians" in this context is ideological and redundant.

Zack439 started to make claims about how the Muslim Egyptians sometimes celebrate Christmas, or other Christian festivals, so I indicated to him that this doesn't address the issue, and it doesn't bear on Sham Ennessim, since the other festivals he mentioned are exclusively Christian, I also indicated to him that what is needed is a historical source that reports on Sham Ennessim itself, not other festivals, but Zack439 continued to ignore my points yet again and removed the credible source that I have provided along with the cited content, replacing them with an online article about Christmas and an answered question on a religious website that do not have any historical credibility and do not cite any historical sources.

At a certain point I hinted to Zack439 that his edits are starting to seem not to be in good faith. And, when he repeatedly corrupted the article, I hinted to him that this is to be considered vandalism, since he repeatedly removed an entire section with the sources, after I asked him not to.

In the edits Zack439 made on 2 May 2021, he added sources that do not mention Sham Ennessim at all, and again added statements about other festivals that are exclusively Christian, he also removed the historical and linguistic sources that I have provided, and removed the quotes from them again. He did however mention that the Khamaseen is not always synchronized with the day after Easter, which is correct, but that still doesn't change the fact that Sham Ennessim is historically reported as being observed specifically on the first day of the Khamaseen, and not on the day after Easter, and that the same source reports on Easter Sunday without relating Sham Ennessim to it in any way, as I indicated in the article with the quotes, which constitutes properly cited content that shouldn't have been removed by Zack439; I also remarked on the desynchronization in the article itself, without drawing strong conclusions; actually, in the absence of historical sources earlier than Lane, that remark on the desynchronization between the Khamaseen and the day immediately following Easter coupled with Lane's report works against Zack439's claims. Zack439 still removed the sources, the quotes, and removed the linguistic source from the "History" section, which he corrupted, along with other sources, so that he can allow himself the erroneous claim that the festival is not related to Shemu, ignoring thus the sources that were provided, which is a dishonest practice.

This discussion about what is Christian/Abrahamic and what isn't is quite otiose; Zack439 should stop pretending that we don't know what is Christian/Abrahamic and what isn't, specially when he is confronted by credible historical and linguistic sources, while all he has are online articles and an answered question on a religious website which do not cite any historical sources whatsover. Zack439 is also trying now to mask the link to the religious website (which he explicitly added before) in a form that makes it seem as an authentic publication, I consider this to be quite deceptive. Needless to mention that, along with what I mentioned, his edits are unencyclopedic both in content and language, and are not WP:NPOV. For the reasons mentioned above, my last edit will be restored, while waiting for the article to be saved from the user Zack439. 197.38.254.174 (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * PLEASE rewrite this message with proper paragraphs... Per WP:INTERSPERSE - Rich T&#124;C&#124;E-Mail 22:12, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Response to what the user Zack439 is calling "Rebuttal" in a section below:

Below, the user Zack439 started a new section he called "Rebuttal", where he should have just replied to my talk! So I'll address what he said below here on the talk I started.

Firstly, I know by now that the user Zack439 is extremely repetitive and dismissive, I already addressed the point about E. W. Lane's report, regarding that the first day of the Khamaseen is not always synchronized with the day immediately following Easter; the source is a reliable source (WP:RS), and it reports exactly what has been quoted, that it was observed specifically on the first day of the Khamaseen, so regardless, it should not have been removed as per WP:NPOV, since this is properly cited content, but I also provided an illustration on this point in the article. So, perhaps Zack439 should stop repetitively saying that he "proved" that it is not synchronized, and should stop simply saying that "Lane is wrong", I already addressed this.

The user Zack439 has been told many times that the answered question on that religious website that he added in his previous edits is not an historical source, and doesn't cite any historical sources for the claims made; Zack439 first added the link to that religious website explicitly (here is the link he added in his previous edits: https://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1835&catid=788), but now he is trying to deceptively mask that link in a form that makes it seem as if it is an authentic publication, I also believe that it was probably Zack439 himself who asked that question on that website, and now is writing "2021" next to it as if it is an authentic publication, with a name "H.G. Youssef" that is not even apparent on the answer itself! I also looked at the edit history, and I have a good reason to believe that the user Zack439 was editing this article earlier from an this address "2600:1702:4280:5f60:fc9f:2152:c417:2a4", based on the language used and the content of the edits; it would be a good idea to check these edits as well, to get an idea, from the language that is bordering on the discriminatory, of what ideology Zack439 is here to push on Wikipedia. The user Zack439 has also been reported to the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User%3AZack439).

The user Zack439 can not just simply state that because he wasn't able to find medieval sources that support his claims about Sham Ennessim, then it must be Christian or treated as a part of Easter, because aside from the flaw in such an argument, this is not how citation on Wikipedia works. Using sources to make claims about other festivals that are exclusively Christian, and that do not mention Sham Ennessim at all, does not constitute proper citations to support your claims on Sham Ennessim or allow you to use a strong word such as "proved", specially when you have been confronted with sources that explicitly report on Sham Ennessim. Again, this has already been addressed, but as I said, the user Zack439 is extremely repetitive and dismissive.

The source "Falola, Toyin; Jean-Jacques, Daniel (2015-12-14)" does not at all say what the user just said (it doesn't say "Copts historically preserved it & celebrated it as part of celebration of the resurrection" at all), here is the link to the mentioned page 393 and what it says (Falola, Toyin; Jean-Jacques, Daniel), this is utter misrepresentation of the source by the user Zack439, I already used that source in my edits and gave its due weight.

Outdoor activities are part of many, many festival, but Sham Ennessim has its own features, and I provided a reliable source that discusses these features and their significance, with a quote, and the source also discusses that these features and foods are exactly those of Shemu, and that what is eaten is exactly what was eaten on this day by the ancient Egyptians; here: Asante, Molefi Kete (2002). But, as with everything else I have provided, the user Zack439 removed it and removed the quote, and pushed his single ideological point of view, without any reliable source, and with deceptive edit summaries.

As for Zack439's statements about the "etymology", it is apparent that the user is quite confused on how etymological derivation is done, we do not simply take words and relate them to one another then look at their meaning or referents, semantic utilization and semantic derivation are an integral part of finding proper etymologies; the user Zack439 should refrain from discussing things that he doesn't have a strong grip on, by providing simplistic examples that do not pertain to the practice in the field. Also, the user Zack439 is now bombarding the article with gish gallop, which is primarily to mask that his sources do not say what he is drawing from them, and is stacking otiose sources for simplistic statements to make his edits seem authentic.

Given the user Zack439's tendency to be repetitive and dismissive, I have no doubt that he will keep repeating himself as he did before, and will be dismissive of what I'm saying; if that is to happen, I will leave it to the sensibilities of the reader to reach their verdict, since the user will drag me into repetitive arguments, which eventually lead to obscurantism. 197.38.254.174 (talk) 08:39, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

A relevant exchange I had with the user Zack439 on the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, where he was reported by other users; that exchange addressed what he mentioned in the new section he started below and titled "Zack439 here":

Before copy-pasting the exchange I had with the user Zack439 on the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (the link to which is mentioned above), I should mention that, as I expected, the user kept repeating himself and kept being dismissive, and I have noted to the user Zack439 that he should read the guidelines of Wikipedia carefully, so that he may stop being repetitive and dismissive, but he just kept repeating himself on points which I addressed more than once. What the user doesn't seem to heed is that, as I mentioned above, and as I mentioned to him more than once, the source (E. W. Lane) is a reliable source (WP:RS), and it states exactly what has been quoted, which constitutes properly cited content and should not be removed as per WP:NPOV, but the user Zack439 just kept repeating himself as I expected, and what he is doing is that he is synthesizing material from sources to try to reach a conclusion that is not directly supported by the sources, which falls under WP:OR, he is also doing the same thing with sources that only mentions other exclusively Christian festivals and that do not mention Sham Ennessim at all; let alone being deceptive in saying in the edit summaries that the sources "prove" his claims.

Here is the exchange; the user Zack439 started his comments by saying "Zack439 here", then I replied to him, and my replies started with "@Zack439":

Zack439 here. Not correct. I’ve never said that only Christian Copts celebrate it. I also said it is a National holiday in Egypt today.

@Zack439: I already illustrated on the distinction between being a "national festival" and being declared by the Egyptian state as an "official holiday"! Again, you are extremely repetitive and dismissive, and your edits convey nothing but pure ideology.

Zack439 here. I mentioned it is today a national holiday in Egypt in my edit. My edits are supported by facts. An example of being driven by pure ideology are those who insist that the 1834 report by Lane claiming it is celebrated on the first day of Khamaseen is right despite a modern published environmental science study claiming that Khamaseen starts in late March “ The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May.” Abed, Abdulkader M., et al. Characterization of the Khamaseen (Spring) Dust in Jordan.” Atmospheric Environment, vol. 43, no. 18, 2009, pp. 2868–76.” Coptic Easter Monday for 2021 is the third of May. Shows it is not synchronized with Easter Monday. This is an example which shows this is not simply a difference of opinions at this point. It is a denial of the facts.

@Zack439: Please stop repeating the same statements which I have responded to more than once; I have already accounted for everything you are saying; I said this on the talk I started: "the source [Lane] is a reliable source (WP:RS), and it reports exactly what has been quoted, that it was observed specifically on the first day of the Khamaseen, so regardless, it should not have been removed as per WP:NPOV, since this is properly cited content, but I also provided an illustration on this point in the article. So, perhaps Zack439 should stop repetitively saying that he "proved" that it is not synchronized, and should stop simply saying that "Lane is wrong", I already addressed this." Again, please stop being repetitive and dismissive, and refrain from pushing your ideology on Wikipedia.

Zack439 here. The problem is Lane’s claim is factually wrong & I mention Lane’s claim in my edit & I kept it under the references. I explicitly discussed in my edit Lane’s claim & I mentioned Lane by name. If Lane’s claim were correct than Sham Ennesim for 2021 would be at the end of March not beginning of May(which is the reality, Coptic Easter Monday for 2021 is May 3 not end of March as Lane would have you believe). Another problem is you cite & quote Lane while deleting the study environmental science study I posted & quoted word by word ‘The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May.” Abed, Abdulkader M., et al. “Characterization of the Khamaseen (Spring) Dust in Jordan.” Atmospheric Environment, vol. 43, no. 18, 2009, pp. 2868–76. You deleted the study, the reference to the study and my properly quoted portion from the study in order to cite Lane while excluding a study which is at odds with his claim. You have not attempted to engage the study & you delete references & quotes from it. You also have not provided a study to substantiate the claim Lane made & you have not provided a study to refute the study I posted. This is because you are ideologically driven, not data driven. Those who are data driven follow the studies.

@Zack439: They are not currently synchronized because neither of them has a fixed date; that's why in the article I said "which at the time happened to coincide...", and I said in the article "it is important to note that the first day of the Khamaseen is not always synchronized with the day immediately following Easter,..." (the environmental study would be put after this statement of mine, but I didn't deem it necessary to put a study for this statement). And before what I said in the talk I started (which I quoted in the above response, and here is what the last sentence "I already addressed this" refers to) I said also this in the talk: "He [Zack439] did however mention that the Khamaseen is not always synchronized with the day after Easter, which is correct, but that still doesn't change the fact that Sham Ennessim is historically reported as being observed specifically on the first day of the Khamaseen, and not on the day after Easter, and that the same source reports on Easter Sunday without relating Sham Ennessim to it in any way, as I indicated in the article with the quotes, which constitutes properly cited content that shouldn't have been removed by Zack439; I also remarked on the desynchronization in the article itself". Again, this is exactly what I mean by saying that you are extremely repetitive and dismissive. Please stop! Also the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is not the place for these discussions, specially when I have addressed everything you keep repeating on the talk page of the article, so if you repeat yourself again on points that I have already discussed I will not respond, referring thus other readers to the talk I started (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sham_Ennessim#Regarding_the_edits_by_the_user_%22Zack439%22,_which_I_consider_to_be_purely_ideological).

Zack439 here. But the evidence shows that date for this holiday is always on Coptic Easter Monday & even in the source from EW Lane he affirms that it is on immediately following Coptic Easter Sunday. Indeed Coptic Easter Monday is not a fixed date but the date of this holiday is always on Coptic Easter Monday. What’s consistent based on the evidence here is that it always on Coptic Easter Monday but it is not always on the first day of Khamaseen. So it follows based on the evidence that the date is inextricably linked to Coptic Easter Monday but not linked to the first day of Khamaseen. Another study from 2014 study also says “Between the end of March and the middle of May, hot winds, laden with dust (khamaseen) blow in from the south and southwest. There is very little rainfall at long intervals” https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf I’ve provided two studies thus far that say that the first day of Khamaseen is around end of March, including this one too “ The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May.” Abed, Abdulkader M., et al. “Characterization of the Khamaseen (Spring) Dust in Jordan.” Atmospheric Environment, vol. 43, no. 18, 2009, pp. 2868–76. Are there any studies that say it is in early May? The problem is Lane’s claim is "A custom termed 'Shemm en-Neseem' [sic.] (or the Smelling of the Zephyr) is observed on the first day of the Khamaseen.” If the custom is truly on the first day of Khamaseen it wouldn’t be observed in early May like it is in 2021. The consistency here even when including Lane’s account is that it is always on Coptic Easter Monday but it is not always on the first day of Khamaseen. Furthermore are there any medieval sources that say it is observed on the first day of Khamaseen independently from Easter Monday or are you just citing 19th century AD Lane & passing it as historical? Because even in the Lane source it is still celebrated on Easter Monday. You have not cited historical evidence which shows it is ever celebrated outside the Coptic Easter Monday date. And Lane also says "they [the Muslims of Egypt] calculate the period of the 'Khamaseen,' when hot southerly winds are of frequent occurrence, to commence on the day immediately following the Coptic festival of Easter Sunday.” And how do the Muslims of Egypt today do this? How did they come up with the date May 3 for 2021? How did they come up with April 20 for 2020? How did they come up with April 29 for 2019? How did they come up with April 9 for 2018? How did they come up with April 17 for 2017? How did they come up with May 2 for 2016?(interesting how these are all April & May dates in the past 6 years while two studies I’ve cited says the first day of Khamaseen is end of March). If you’re going to claim they did that during the time of Lane & do not calculate it to be in the first day of Khamaseen anymore, that means lack of continuity with the current holiday since they would not be following their supposed traditional date for celebration. If the claim is they just follow the Coptic Easter Monday date, that means it is connected to the Coptic fasting schedule & not independent from Coptic Easter Monday. These are questions you need to answer to substantiate the notion of its date being independent from Coptic Easter Monday. Otherwise you’re ideologically in this regard, not evidence/data driven.

Zack439 here again. You say at the time of Lane the first day of Khamaseen & Coptic Easter Monday happened to coincide? I looked into this because the Coptic Calendar follows the Julian(Old Calendar) when it comes to Easter & found that in 1834 Coptic Easter Monday was on April 23 by Julian system which means May 5 according to the Gregorian system. Whether late April or early May, that is not the first day of Khamaseen http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 so how did they coincide at that time? Again two studies which show the beginning of Khamaseen to be late March https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf1b9303ca43c/Characterization-of-the-Khamaseen-Spring-Dust-in-Jordan.pdf In light of this, you need to provide evidence that they happened to coincide in 1834. Because I’m not seeing it. You don’t have studies from environmental sciences sources to support & the history of the calendar dates does not support your claim or Lane’s for that matter.

@Zack439: You have misrepresented this study (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf); here is the relevant quote from page number 7 of this study: "Between the end of March and the middle of May, hot winds, laden with dust (Khamaseen) blow in from the south and southwest."

Zack439 here. No I haven’t misrepresented the study. Remember the claim by E.W. Lane is Sham Ennesim is observed on the FIRST day of Khamaseen & two studies are saying that Khamaseen starts around end of March. The 2014 study is saying "Between the end of March and the middle of May, hot winds, laden with dust (Khamaseen) blow in from the south and southwest." https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf The study is describing a time interval. So the first day or start of Khamaseen would be around the end of March according to this study. And for the study of 2009 it says “The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May” https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf1b9303ca43c/Characterization-of-the-Khamaseen-Spring-Dust-in-Jordan.pdf Two studies say the start of Khamaseen is around end of March. And according to this data the Orthodox old Calendar Easter date (which is what the Coptic Calendar follows for Easter) is not at the end of March majority of the time http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19, in light of the two studies & the data we have on the dates, it is looks like Sham Ennesim is usually not observed at the end of March which means it is usually not observed on the first day of Khamaseen. It is however always on Coptic Easter Monday.

@Zack439: I don't see how that is an interval, an interval is the one described in the other study. Also, during the French Campaign in Egypt the Khamaseen started as late as late may, a large margin after May 21, which you can check in the source (Nina Burleigh, Mirage, p.133-135). Now, let me repeat this for you again, I'm not here to contest how the Khamaseen is currently calculated, that is off topic; please read the guidelines of Wikipedia carefully, perhaps then you will stop being repetitive; I have provided a reliable source (WP:RS), which is E. W. Lane, and stated with the quotes what the source is exactly reporting, which is properly cited content and should not be removed as per WP:NPOV; this is the reason why I noted on your repetitiveness and your being dismissive, as I stated in the talk I started on the talk page of the article, you will drag me into repetitive arguments, which eventually lead to obscurantism. Please stop!

Zack439 here. It is interval for both studies. Both studies describing when the Khamaseen starts & describes a period of time. Here is what an interval is “ An interval BETWEEN two events OR DATES is the period of time between them” https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/interval 2014 study is saying "BEWTWEEN the end of March and the middle of May, hot winds, laden with dust (Khamaseen) blow in from the south and southwest." https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf 2009 study is saying “The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May” https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf It is an interval for both studies. Both studies claiming Khamaseen starts end of March. And like I said the historical trend for the Orthodox (Julian) Calendar Easter(which the Coptic Orthodox Church follows for Easter) shows for the majority of the time it does not fall on the end of March. Are there times when it falls on the end of March? Yes. But not the majority. It is usually not at the end of March which means it is usually not observed at the first day of Khamaseen. Even in the time of Lane 1834 it was not observed at the end of March. http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 EW Lane says in the quote that it is observed at the first day of Khamaseen. Two studies claim Khamaseen starts at the end of March & the historical trend date for Orthodox Easter dates shows it is usually not at the end of March. Two studies & the data on historical dates for Easter celebration refute Lane. Furthermore how it’s currently calculated today is entirely relevant because you are claiming the CURRENT celebration has historical continuity that traces all the way to the pharaonic times. So again I ask how do the Muslims of Egypt today calculate the date? How did they come up with the date May 3 for 2021? How did they come up with April 20 for 2020? How did they come up with April 29 for 2019? How did they come up with April 9 for 2018? How did they come up with April 17 for 2017? How did they come up with May 2 for 2016? If you’re going to claim they used to calculate it this way & do not calculate it to be in the first day of Khamaseen anymore, that means lack of continuity with the current holiday since they would not be following their supposed traditional date for celebration. If the claim is they just follow the Coptic Easter Monday date, that means it is inextricably connected to the Coptic fasting schedule & not independent from Coptic Easter Monday. These are questions you need to provide an adequate answer for to substantiate the notion of its date being independent from Coptic Easter Monday & Lane’s claim. Otherwise you’re ideologically in this regard, not evidence/data driven.

The exchange ended here.

As you can see I engaged with the user Zack439 and addressed what he was saying, despite his repetitiveness and his being dismissive, and despite the fact that he is ignoring the guidelines of Wikipedia, in particular WP:RS and WP:NPOV, on the one hand, regarding the reliable sources and the properly cited content that I have provided with quotes, and on the other hand WP:OR/WP:NOR regarding what he is doing, which I indicated to him more than once, as you can see above. So, again, if the user Zack439 is to keep repeating himself and keep being dismissive, I will leave it to the other users who are reading this talk to reach their verdict, since, again, he will drag me into repetitive arguments, which are not productive, and which eventually lead to obscurantism. 197.38.254.174 (talk) 23:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

For reference, here is a link to the current article that is being defended against the user Zack439: Current. 197.38.46.131 (talk) 06:55, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

=rebuttal part 3 ==

Zack439 here. By that standard any book published on Egypt including those from the 1800s can be quoted regardless if the quotes are accurate. Again you haven’t provided an adequate explanation hence why I continue to repeat myself. You’re using those quotes to prove this current holiday has continuity that traces all the way to the pharaonic era, so it is entirely relevant to provide an adequate explanation to substantiate it. Again the report you cited from 1834 claims that this holiday of Sham Ennesim is observed on the first day of Khamaseen & it just happens to immediately follow the Coptic Easter Sunday festival according to the report. I’ve provided you with two studies one from 2009 & the other from 2014 which claim the first day of Khamaseen is at the end of March https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf1b9303ca43c/Characterization-of-the-Khamaseen-Spring-Dust-in-Jordan.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf & have shown historical trend data for Easter which shows Orthodox Julian Calendar(which the Coptic Orthodox Church follows for Easter) Easter dates the majority time does not fall at the end of March http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 which means this holiday is usually not observed on the first day of Khamaseen refuting EW Lane’s claim on this. This historical trend data & the two studies I’ve provided refute EW Lanes 1834 report on this. Even in 1834 it didn’t fall on the first day of Khamaseen. Another problem is the EW Lane report claims Muslims of Egypt calculate the date to be at the start of the Khamaseen which happens to follow Coptic Easter. Two problems with this first even in 1834 Coptic Easter was not at the end of March & same case for the majority of documented dates for this Easter in the data http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 the second problem with this is the you have not provided an adequate explanation for how Muslims of Egypt CURRENTLY choose the date. I asked you how did they come up with the date May 3 for 2021? How did they come up with April 20 for 2020? How did they come up with April 29 for 2019? How did they come up with April 9 for 2018? How did they come up with April 17 for 2017? How did they come up with May 2 for 2016? And said if the claim is they used to calculate it this way & do not calculate it to be in the first day of Khamaseen anymore, that means lack of continuity with the current holiday since they would not be following their supposed traditional pharaonic date for celebration. If the claim is they just follow the Coptic Easter Monday date, that means it is inextricably connected to the Coptic fasting schedule & not independent from Coptic Easter Monday. These are questions & rebuttals I’ve yet to receive an adequate answer from you. To substantiate the notion of its date being independent from Coptic Easter Monday & Lane’s claim, you need to provide an adequate explanation to my questions & rebuttals. If the you can’t, then clearly you don’t care about the truth & you are primarily ideologically motivated. Not date driven or evidence driven.

rebuttal part 2
Coptic Orthodox HG Bishop Youssef is the only one from a Coptic Orthodox/religious site. The rest of the sources are not but they do corroborate his point about it being linked to Easter & the fasting schedule of the Holy Great Fast in the Coptic calendar, hence why it is always on Easter Monday and not always on the first day of Khamaseen. I provided valid historical sources & environmental science study. The report from the 1834 which you quoted is addressed with a 2009 published environmental science study I cited. Lane in 1834 claimed that Muslims calculate it based on the first day of Khamaseen & it is observed on the first day of Khamaseen. The problem with those claims is they are scientifically not correct. The first day of Khamaseen is not synchronized with Easter Monday. The study I provided shows that the first day of Khamaseen tends is in late March. “The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May.” Abed, Abdulkader M., et al. “Characterization of the Khamaseen (Spring) Dust in Jordan.” Atmospheric Environment, vol. 43, no. 18, 2009, pp. 2868–76. The 2021 Coptic Easter is early May. This shows it is not on the first day of Khamaseen as the sources you quoted say. Your source made a scientific claim & thus you need to substantiate it with scientific data which you have failed to do thus far. To substantiate Lane’s claim in the 1834 source you quoted you need to provide a environmental science study refuting mine which shows that indeed that the first day of Khamaseen happens to be Easter Monday. You haven’t provided this.

As for the source by Falola, Toyin, and Daniel Jean-Jacques. Africa [3 Volumes]: An Encyclopedia of Culture and Society. Illustrated, ABC-CLIO, 2015, see page 393, I didn’t misrepresent the source. I made the claim & cited the source to support. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Africa_An_Encyclopedia_of_Culture_and_So/YjoVCwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22This+holiday+has+more+meaning+for+the+Coptic+Christians+than+for+the+majority+Muslim+Egyptians+because+Sham+el-Nessim+coincides+with+the+Easter+celebration&pg=PA393&printsec=frontcover But If you have a problem with how I connect the claim & citing the source to support, I can just quote directly.

Now I’ve said from the beginning that historical & traditional “sham Ennesim” was a part of Coptic Easter & not inseparable from it. For non-christians if you remove the part about celebrating the resurrection of Christ, what you end up with is outdoor activities like outside gatherings eating food outside & so on, on Easter Monday. That’s literally it. Outdoor activities in association with public Easter celebrations are attested in the medieval sources. They don’t need to specify Sham Ennesim explicitly because my point is outdoor activities on Easter Monday are just a component of Coptic Easter. On the contrary the lack of attesting of a religious-neutral spring festival that is independent Easter in the medieval sources refutes claims in your sources which claim otherwise. What is attested in medieval sources are public celebrations of Easter and the Easter holiday. Since “Sham Ennesim” is an extension of Easter, as Copts have traditional believed “Although Copts treat Spring Day as an extension of Easter” https://english.alarabiya.net/perspective/features/2015/04/06/Coptic-Easter-How-Egypt-celebrates-the-rising-of-Christ the medieval sources support Copts approach to this holiday in not distinguishing it from Easter. Thus It is implied that it is included in when Easter is attested in the medieval sources & its public celebration. Again There is no evidence from medieval sources of a non-christian version of this spring festival. Taqi al Din Ahmed Ali ibn al Maqrîzi provides a list of festivals that were celebrated in Egypt, he mentions Easter and does mention that Easter celebrations included outdoor activities but he makes no mention of a non-Christian version of Sham Ennessim Les fêtes des Coptes' Patrologia Orientalis 10 (1915) pp. 314-343, Werthmuller, Kurt J. Coptic Identity and Ayyubid Politics in Egypt, 1218-1250. American Univ in Cairo Press, 2010 pp. 35, https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Al-Maqrizi-Coptic_Feast_Days_Alcock2015.pdf

As for the linguistics & etymology, that is simply the reality. Just because the Coptic word Shom is gets its etymology from the word šmw does not mean Shom Ennisim & the pharaonic festival of Shemu are the same thing. That is wrong. Again etymological link of a word does not mean they are the same thing. Coptic Saint Amun has the same name as a ancient Egyptian god but they are not the same person. Coptic Saint Wadamoun name means “special for Amun the Egyptian god” but he has nothing to do with the ancient Egypt god.

Rebuttal
I’ll be concise in part A for those who don’t want to read all this & specify in detail in part B

Part A) To prove continuity you need Medieval sources attesting to the celebration of pharaonic non-Christian spring festival celebrated independently from Easter. You also need a environmental science study which shows that the first day of Khamaseen is synchronized with Easter Monday. You have not provided either of this.

Part B) I addressed the claims which include the source you cited from 1834 and I provided adequate explanations for everything. I only provided one religious based source written by HG Bishop Youssef, he is corroborating with the reliable historical sources I provided. I believe the one ideological driven is you since you continue to peddle the claim by Lane 1834 about Sham Ennesim coinciding with the first day of Khamaseen, I’ve proven Lane’s claim to be wrong by citing a published 2009 Environmental science study which shows Khamaseen starts in late March. This means it is not synchronized with Easter Monday because Easter Monday is not fixed at late March. For example for 2021 Sham Ennesim is on the third of May, this means it is not on the first day of Khamaseen & thus Lane is wrong. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf1b9303ca43c/Characterization-of-the-Khamaseen-Spring-Dust-in-Jordan.pdf From what I’ve seen the medieval sources do not mention “Sham Ennessim” explicitly and as something separate from Easter. That’s the point. Outdoor activities in association with Easter is mentioned & Easter is on the list of those mentioned by Maqrizi. https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Al-Maqrizi-Coptic_Feast_Days_Alcock2015.pdf No independent religious-neutral spring festival mentioned by medieval sources for Egypt. Page 35 in “Coptic Identity and Ayyubid Politics in Egypt, 1218-1250” a medieval historian is quoted where he mentions public celebration of Easter festivals. For Christian Copts “Sham Ennesim” are activities done as a part of Easter because as it says here “Although Copts treat Spring Day as an extension of Easter“ https://english.alarabiya.net/perspective/features/2015/04/06/Coptic-Easter-How-Egypt-celebrates-the-rising-of-Christ My argument from the beginning is historically and traditionally the meaning behind this festival was about celebrating the resurrection of Christ and thus it was historically seen as an extension of Easter, hence the outdoor activities in association with Easter. Which is why on page 393 in the book “Falola, Toyin, and Daniel Jean-Jacques. Africa [3 Volumes]: An Encyclopedia of Culture and Society. Illustrated, ABC-CLIO, 2015” Copts historically preserved it & celebrated it as part of celebration of the resurrection. Hence we see Easter mentioned & outdoor activities in association with Easter mentioned in medieval sources but no religious-neutral spring festival on easter Monday that is independent from Easter mentioned in the medieval sources. Again this modern news article says “Although Copts treat Spring Day as an extension of Easter“ https://english.alarabiya.net/perspective/features/2015/04/06/Coptic-Easter-How-Egypt-celebrates-the-rising-of-Christ the thing is the tradition of Copts treating it as an extension of Easter is the only tradition in regards to this spring festival that is attested in the medieval sources because the only Easter Monday spring festivities mentioned in those sources are linked to Easter. Is there a medieval source that mentions a spring festival around the time of Easter Monday and that is independent from Easter and religious-neutral? If yes you need to provide it and prove it. Again that is why it always falls on Easter Monday. It does not always fall on the first day of Khamaseen. I provided a environmental science study which says Khamaseen starts in end of March, the problem is Easter Monday is not synchronized with that. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf1b9303ca43c/Characterization-of-the-Khamaseen-Spring-Dust-in-Jordan.pdf For example 2021 Easter Monday is on the third of May. To substantiate the claim by EW Lane 1834 you need to provide an environmental science study which shows that the first day of Khamaseen is synchronized with Coptic Easter Monday. As for the linguistic argument, it still doesn’t prove Shemu and Sham Ennesim are the same thing. Because just because šmw provides the etymology for ϣⲱⲙ that doesn’t mean they are referring to the same event or thing. Even if the names were exactly the same, that still wouldn’t mean they are referring to the same thing. For example there is a Coptic Saint known as St. Amun (Ⲁⲙⲟⲩⲛ). His feast day is on 20 Pashons(Ⲡⲁϣⲟⲛⲥ) in the Coptic calendar. As you see he shares the same name as the pharaonic god Amun but clearly a different person. Regnault, L., 2021. Amun, Saint. Ccdl.claremont.edu. Sharing the same name or being linked etymologically by name doesn’t mean it is the same person or event. Furthermore the reason I provided evidence of Muslims historically celebrating Christian holidays & Muslims celebrating Christmas was to show they do celebrate things that are Christian in origin. Just because they celebrate festivities that are Christian in origin does not mean they are not Christian in origin.

Zack439 here
Based on my discussions with the user I’m having a dispute with it is clear the user is deeply & primarily ideologically motivated & not date driven. He quotes Lanes 1834 report which says “A custom termed 'Shemm en-Neseem' [sic.] (or the Smelling of the Zephyr) is observed on the first day of the Khamaseen” yet two studies, one from 2014 & one from 2009 claim that Khamaseen starts at the end of March. "Between the end of March and the middle of May, hot winds, laden with dust (Khamaseen) blow in from the south and southwest." https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234685858.pdf The study is describing a time interval. So the first day or start of Khamaseen would be around the end of March according to this study. And for the study of 2009 it says “The term Khamaseen signifies that the dust storms are repeated several times during a period of around 50 days starting late March and ending in early May” https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mustafa-Al-Kuisi/publication/222814007_Characterization_of_the_Khamaseen_Spring_Dust_in_Jordan/links/5b67ab5d299bf1b9303ca43c/Characterization-of-the-Khamaseen-Spring-Dust-in-Jordan.pdf This is a problem because the historical dates for Easter for those who use the Orthodox Julian calendar system(which the Coptic Orthodox Church follows) shows that this holiday is usually not at the end of March which even includes the 1834 time of Lane as well http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 The only consistency that is congruent with the data in Lane’s 1834 report for this is that it immediately follows Coptic festival of Easter Sunday. Based on the composite of the data, this means this holiday always follows Coptic festival of Easter Sunday & usually not on the first day of Khamaseen. Another problem is this user has not explained how Muslims today choose the date. This question is entirely relevant to this discussion because the user is claiming the CURRENT holiday TODAY has continuity that traces all the way to the Pharaonic era. Now Lane claims in his 1834 report “they [the Muslims of Egypt] calculate the period of the 'Khamaseen,' when hot southerly winds are of frequent occurrence, to commence on the day immediately following the Coptic festival of Easter Sunday." So I asked the user how did Muslims come up with the date May 3 for 2021? How did Muslims come up with April 20 for 2020? How did Muslims come up with April 29 for 2019? How did Muslims come up with April 9 for 2018? How did Muslims come up with April 17 for 2017? How did Muslims come up with May 2 for 2016? If the claim is they used to calculate it this way & do not calculate it to be in the first day of Khamaseen anymore, that means lack of continuity with the current holiday since they would not be following their supposed traditional date for celebration. If the claim is they just follow the Coptic Easter Monday date, that means it is inextricably connected to the Coptic fasting schedule & not independent from Coptic Easter Monday. I haven’t received an adequate explanation for this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zack439 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I have not received an adequate explanation to my questions
Zack439 here, For those disputing my edits, I have yet to receive a adequate explanation for how the current festival is calculated independently from Coptic Easter Monday. This current article is misleading in what it includes & what it excludes(the multiple sources I’ve quoted & provided are erased) because it tries to pass that this current festival is calculated independently from Coptic Easter Monday by including EW Lane claim while excluding sources which affirm it is a Coptic Christian festival(recently I’ve provided several sources which mention this explicitly) & ignore the data which shows that the date is usually not on the first day of Khamaseen contra to the EW Lane claim(a note even in 1834 Lane’s time, the festival was not on the first day of Khamaseen but it was on Coptic Easter Monday). How the date is currently calculated is entirely relevant because this discussion is focused on the current holiday and its continuity with the past. So again I ask how did they come up with the date May 3 for 2021? How did they come up with April 20 for 2020? How did they come up with April 29 for 2019? How did they come up with April 9 for 2018? How did they come up with April 17 for 2017? How did they come up with May 2 for 2016? If the claim is they used to calculate it this way & do not calculate it to be in the first day of Khamaseen anymore, that means past “pharaonic festival” has a lack of continuity with the current festival since they would not be following their supposed traditional date for celebration. If the claim is they just follow the Coptic Easter Monday date, that means it is inextricably connected to the Coptic fasting schedule & not calculated independently from Coptic Easter Monday. Again I have not received any adequate explanation to these questions whatsoever.

= The user Zack439's points in the last section he started have been already addressed =

The title of the user Zack439's last section is "I have not received an adequate explanation to my questions", which is the section I'm referring to.

No one is claiming that currently the festival does not fall on the day after Easter or currently calculated independently; the user Zack439's statement is misleading.

The user Zack439's other points have already been addressed above (in the section titled: Regarding the edits by the user "Zack439",...). In particular, it has been mentioned that what is disputed is not how the first day of the Khamaseen is currently calculated, among other things that addressed the claims about this.

The user Zack439's edits are a massive WP:OR throughout, are unencyclopedic, and do not conform to WP:NPOV, among other things that are quite obvious. He is using sources that do not mention Sham Ennessim at all, and that only mention other festivals that are exclusively Christian, for instance. Please refer to the section (titled: Regarding the edits made by the user "Zack439",...) for a detailed discussion of the points which the user Zack439 keeps repeating. For reference, here is a link to the current article that is being defended against the user Zack439: Current. 197.38.46.131 (talk) 04:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

lack of adequate explanation part 2
No explanation has been given to the reality that historically majority of the time, the dates for Sham Ennesim did not fall on the first day of Khamaseen. It always falls on Coptic Easter Monday & the majority of the time it did not fall on the first day of Khamaseen. This fact has yet to be acknowledged or given an adequate explanation for. http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 Lane does say in his book that this festival immediately follows Coptic festival of Easter Sunday but his claim about the custom falling on the first day of Khamaseen is not atttested by the data even in 1834 his time it did not fall on the first day of Khamaseen. By giving Lane disproportionate weight to the exclusion of other sources & staying silent on how the date is currently chosen, that makes it misleading for the reader. Is the date currently chosen on the first day of Khamaseen & calculated independently from Coptic Easter? Yes or no? If no, that weakens the defense for the notion for the current festival to have continuity which traces to pharaonic Egypt because that would mean it is not independent from Coptic Easter. There has been no clarification made on this in the article which is entirely relevant because the topic is about the current festival. How it is currently calculated is not clarified in the article which makes it misleading by omission. There needs to be an explanation for how the date is currently chosen because the claim is about current festival & its continuity with the past. Another problem is the claim that “the first day of the Khamaseen, which at the time happened to coincide with the day immediately following Easter” this is not correct. Again 1834 Coptic Easter Monday was on April 23 by Julian system which means May 5 according to the Gregorian system. Whether late April or early May, that is not the first day of Khamaseen http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 so it did not happen to coincide with the first day of Khamaseen in Lane’s time. No adequate explanation has been given here as well. Furthermore in my previous edit I cited a book from 1911 that explicitly describes Sham Ennesim as “Christian feast held on the Easter Monday of the Copts” Sladen, D. and Roosevelt, T., 1911. Oriental Cairo the City of the "Arabian Nights". Hurst & Blackett: London, p.121. and another books says “Sham al Nassim is a Coptic Christian festival celebrated in Egypt and Sudan as a public holiday. Butt, M. A. (1986). Arab business yearbook, 1986. London: Graham &amp; Trotman. Even in EW Lane’s book he describes the the custom as “religious or superstitious nature at particular periods of the religious almanac of the Copts.” So Lane’s report indicates the opposite of what you are claiming, it is religious by nature and connected to “particular periods of the religious almanac of the Copts“ in particular. Also the claim of “it does not have more meaning for the Christian Egyptians[Copts] than it does for the Muslim Egyptians” is not substantiated by the literature & data including the Lane source you rely on. Again I made these two quotes from this book from 2015 “The strength of some of the festivals is demonstrated by their persistence over time, especially through the cultural agency of the Copts who kept the pharaonic heritage mostly intact within the framework of the Islamic order. The Festival of Sham el-Nessim (Breathing of the Spring Air) is today a national holiday in Egypt” & “This holiday has more meaning for the Coptic Christians than for the majority Muslim Egyptians because Sham el-Nessim coincides with the Easter celebration (marking the death and resurrection of Jesus), also celebrated in spring.” Falola, Toyin, and Daniel Jean-Jacques. Africa [3 Volumes]: An Encyclopedia of Culture and Society. Illustrated, ABC-CLIO, 2015

to add more
Zack439 here again. If you can’t provide an explanation for how the current festival is calculated independently from Coptic Easter Monday than you can’t substantiate the notion that the this festival as it exists today was preserved amongst the Muslims in the Arab republic of Egypt independently from the Christians Copts. Again this is about the current festival & so how it was preserved up until today matters. If they’re simply following Coptic Easter Monday date then its no different from following the Christmas date & partaking in celebrations(which reports show that Muslims in the Arab republic of Egypt partake in Christmas festivities). Also to add the reason I cited information on other Coptic festivals is to show how noncopts even Jews included have in the past partook in Coptic festivals to varying degrees which include non-locals as well. I found a source from the 1970s that describes how jews would participate in Sham Ennesim as well. Nonchristians partaking in them does not negate that it is of Coptic Christian origin. I have also explained several times that historical activities we describe as Sham Ennesim today were the outdoor activities in association with Easter as the medieval sources attest to. Medieval sources do not mention anything about a religious-neutral spring festival that traces to pharaonic Egypt. How Copts treat it as a extension of Easter “ Although Copts treat Spring Day as an extension of Easter“ https://english.alarabiya.net/perspective/features/2015/04/06/Coptic-Easter-How-Egypt-celebrates-the-rising-of-Christ is congruent with the medieval sources because Easter & Easter outdoor activities is mentioned but no independent religious-neutral activities described explicitly as Sham Ennesim that happened to coincide with that time is mentioned. Again in my previous edit I cited a book from 1911 that explicitly describes Sham Ennesim as “Christian feast held on the Easter Monday of the Copts” Sladen, D. and Roosevelt, T., 1911. Oriental Cairo the City of the "Arabian Nights". Hurst & Blackett: London, p.121. and another books says “Sham al Nassim is a Coptic Christian festival celebrated in Egypt and Sudan as a public holiday. Butt, M. A. (1986). Arab business yearbook, 1986. London: Graham &amp; Trotman.

What the user Zack439 is saying has been addressed already; I'll provide the full quote from his new source, and I'll offer a compromise
The claims about the desynchronization have been addressed already several times (see the section titled: Regarding the edits by the user "Zack439",..." above), and it is stated in the article that the festival falls on Easter Monday, as I already mentioned. Again, to simply say that "Lane is wrong" is a misunderstanding of the guidelines of Wikipedia and of proper citation (WP:RS, WP:NPOV), and a misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is and what it is not for (WP:NOR). Also, E. W. Lane is a standard reference in the field.

Now of course some features of Sham Ennessim are indeed quite superstitious, they are just not Abrahamic, as it originates from Shemu [Asante, p.75 ]. E. W. Lane doesn't describe "the custom" as "religious or superstitious nature at particular periods of the religious almanac of the Copts" as the user Zack439 has stated (the user Zack439 should not try to be manipulative, he won't get away with it); here is what Lane states: "it is remarkable that the Muslims of Egypt observe certain customs of a religious or superstitious nature at particular periods of the religious almanac of the Copts". This statement in Lane, that "certain costums of religious or superstitious nature" are observed "at particular periods of the religious almanac of the Copts", is an indication that whatever those "customs of religious or superstitious nature" are, they were thought of as separate from the religious almanac of the Coptic Christians, since Lane states that one is observed at periods of the religious almanac of the other, not that one is the other; as you can see, Lane doesn't say "the custom", not that it would have made any difference. After that sentence Lane goes on to tell us that the Khamaseen is calculated to "commence on the day immediately following the Coptic festival of Easter Sunday". Then in his report on Sham Ennessim, he reports that is it observed specifically on the first day of the Khamaseen. These are things represented with the quotes in the article. So, the user Zack439 should move on from this and stop repeating it over and over.

Every single other point the user Zack439 keeps repeating has also been addressed above several times. Again, the user Zack439 is extremely repetitive and dismissive, and his edits are a massive WP:OR throughout, are unencyclopedic, and do not conform to WP:NPOV, among other things that are quite obvious. For reference, here is a link to the current article that is being defended against the user Zack439: Current.

Now here is what I offer as a compromise, based on the 1911 book that the user Zack439 just provided; but before offering the compromise, let me first point out that the user Zack439 is being dishonest regarding the quote from the 1911 book, he has not provided the quote in full, which is quite deceptive, and you are just about to know why he left out the rest of the quote. The 1911 book [Sladen, Douglas (1911). Oriental Cairo.] refers to it in the chapter titled "Arab Bank Holiday: the Shem-en-Nesim", since the author of this book was referring to the Muslim Egyptians as "Arabs by religion but not by race" [Sladen, p. 123 ], as a: "Christian feast held on the Easter Monday of the Copts and Greeks; but the Arabs all keep it, and everyone goes out into the country for a picnic on that day, because the Shem-en-Nesim is supposed to mark the beginning of the season of the Khamsin, the dreaded hot winds" [Sladen, p. 121 ]. The user Zack439 left these parts out, of course, he stopped at "...of the Copts", and left out the rest of the quote, which is extremely deceptive! So, this book is also referring to it as marking the beginning of the Khamaseen, which is consistent with the much earlier report by E. W. Lane (1834).

Based on this book, and based on the fact that E. W. Lane predates this 1911 book by almost a century, I offer the following edit that represents both sources.

I don't mind extending this existing paragraph:

Thus, even though the festival falls on Easter Monday, which is the case for historical reasons, not religious/Abrahamic ones, as illustrated above, it does not have more meaning for the Christian Egyptians than it does for the Muslim Egyptians, or for any other Egyptian outside those two faiths, since the festival is non-Abrahamic in nature, it pertains in meaning neither to Christianity nor to Islam.

To the following paragraph that represents both sources:

''Thus, even though the festival falls on Easter Monday, which is the case for historical reasons, not religious/Abrahamic ones, as illustrated above, it does not have more meaning for the Christian Egyptians than it does for the Muslim Egyptians, or for any other Egyptian outside those two faiths, since the festival is non-Abrahamic in nature, as it originates from Shemu,[2 ] it pertains in meaning neither to Christianity nor to Islam. However, without taking the festival's origins into account, it came to have more religious meaning for the Christian Egyptians, because it falls on Easter Monday, which is not religiously meaningful for the Muslim Egyptians.[4 ] About a century after E. W. Lane's report (1834), the festival has also been described as following in a later book from the early 20th-century (1911), which referred to it as a "Christian feast" in the chapter titled "An Arab Bank Holiday: the Shem-en-Nesim", since the author of this book was referring to the Muslim Egyptians as "Arabs by religion but not by race"[Sladen, p. 123 ]:'' "Shem-en-Nesim means 'The Smelling of the Zephyr,' and it is a Christian feast held on the Easter Monday of the Copts and Greeks; but the Arabs all keep it, and everyone goes out into the country for a picnic on that day, because the Shem-en-Nesim is supposed to mark the beginning of the season of the Khamsin, the dreaded hot winds."[Sladen, p. 121 ] It should be noted that this early 20th-century book also reports on the festival as marking the beginning of the season of the Khamaseen (Khamsin), which is consistent with the much earlier report by E. W. Lane (1834).

This legitimate compromise, however, has to be implemented without any attempts at manipulation or deception, like the attempts of the user Zack439 throughout his edits, and with transparent citations using the available clickable links as above. The user Zack439 should refrain from edit-warring, and should keep in mind that Wikipedia is built through consensus and WP:NPOV, as long as the sources are WP:RS; edit-warring will not lead anywhere, it doesn't work on Wikipedia. The user Zack439 has also been told countless times to stop being extremely repetitive and dismissive; the user Zack439 should also stop using deceptive section titles on the talk page here, just like his deceptive edit summaries and deceptive quotes. I believe this is a compromise that should satisfy the user Zack439. 197.38.46.131 (talk) 18:37, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

more rebuttal due to lack of explanation
Zack here again, it is not just desynchronization. The data shows the date is usually not on the first day of Khamaseen the majority of the time & that includes during Lane’s time in 1834. So in the time of Lane it did not coincide with the first day of Khamaseen & that is the case for the majority of documented dates for this holiday. In contrast it is always on Coptic Easter Monday including in Lane’s time. http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 This means the date is not dependent on when the first day of Khamaseen but instead depends on when Coptic Easter is. You still have not provided an adequate explanation for how the current festival is calculated in the article. By including Lane & excluding the other sources & by staying quiet about the reality that the current festival is not calculated independently from Coptic Easter, this implicitly leaves the reader with the impression(implicitly) that the current festival is calculated independently from Coptic Easter & has continuity with Lane’s description in full. By making no clarification on how the current festival is calculated & citing that quote by Lane(which has shown to not reflect realty because the first day of Khamaseen was not on Sham Ennesim in his time) that effectively tries to pass the current festival as being calculated independently from Coptic Easter Monday implicitly. As for the 1911 quote, there is no dishonesty or deceptiveness here. The point of quote was to show how it was described as a Christian feast, regardless of where I end it makes no difference. My motivation for ending it as “ Christian feast held on the Easter Monday of the Copts” was to save space. Nothing more. But quoting it full makes absolutely no difference to the point whatsoever, the only difference is it takes up more space. But the point about that quote is it is described as a Christian feast. Not some religiously-neutral event. Furthermore the time difference between 1911 & 1834 is 77 years, in the grand scheme of things since you’re claiming this festival traces all the way to the pharaonic festival of Shemu, it is not a substantial difference in time. And furthermore that is how Copts today see it “On Easter Day (Sham El-Nessim) we eat fish, eggs, wear new clothes and visit one another.” http://www.coptic-cairo.com/culture/tradition/tradition.html & https://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1835&catid=788 so how Copts treat it & choose its date today has continuity with how it’s described in this source. Furthermore here is the EW Lane Quote in full “It is remarkable that the Muslims of Egypt observe certain customs of a religious or superstitious nature at particular periods of the religious almanac of the Copts ; and even, according to the same system , calculate the times of certain changes of the weather. Thus they calculate the period of the Khum'a'see'n, when hot southerly winds are of frequent, occurrence, to commence on the day immediately following the Coptic Festival of Easter Sunday” Again the context here is he is describing this festival to be a “religious or superstitious nature” & “at particular periods of the religious Almanac of the Copts” in particular. You’re saying it is possible that he is referring to another religion or superstition that is not Coptic Christianity? If so what is the other religion or superstition is he referring to? What is the name of this non-Christian religion & what festivals does it entail? Furthermore Lane’s quote here says that it immediately follows on the day following the Coptic festival of Easter Sunday. Again the problem with this is the 1834 Coptic Easter Monday was on April 23 by Julian system which means May 5 according to the Gregorian system. Whether late April or early May, that is not the first day of Khamaseen http://5ko.free.fr/en/easter.php?y=19 so it did not happen to coincide with the first day of Khamaseen in Lane’s time. Quoting factually incorrect information without provide correction or an adequate explanation is just that. Another issue he is saying they calculate it to be at the first day of Khamaseen because he says “ A custom termed ‘Shemm en-Neseem’ [sic.] (or the Smelling of the Zephyr) is observed on the first day of the Khamaseen.” Again if you’re going to include that quote you need to clarify if currently they calculate the current festival to be on the first day of Khamaseen or not. If no, than that it is a lack of continuity with the current festival & how it’s described here. As I’ve shown in the above, based on where the dates fall clearly there is no calculation here that is independent from Coptic Easter. It always falls on Coptic Easter Monday and it usually does not fall on the first day of Khamaseen the majority of the times. This means it depends on when Coptic Easter Monday is & not when the first day of Khamaseen is, refuting Lane’s claim on this. If you can’t provide an explanation for how the current festival is calculated independently from Coptic Easter Monday than you can’t substantiate the notion that the this festival as it exists today was preserved amongst the Muslims in the Arab republic of Egypt independently from the Christians Copts & you can’t substantiate the validity of the Lane quote. How the current festival is calculated is entirely relevant because the main point of this discussion is to establish its continuity with the past.

Keep the religious war off the article
@197.38.254.174 and @Zack439, I have re-ordered the article and restored its Encyclopedic style. I moved the information you recently added into special sections under history. Also, please do not write too-long paragraphs.

While I understand the importance of the argument about Islamic/christian involvement in determining the date of the festival, this flood of information should not be in the introduction, and that is why I created new sections to accomodate the info.

Also, the date of the festival is now determined by the coptic church for historical reasons, so this is the kind of information that should go in the intro. If you want to argue that historically it was related to Khamaseen (because of the poor reference you have), this should go in history section.

The fact that the date is determined by the coptic church does not imply that it is a Christian feast. The intro says clearly that it is a Pharaohnic feast preserved through generations, but it needs to be after Easter so that Christians can celebrate it after the 40-day fasting, and this has been the case since Roman Egypt was officially christianized. Ramses Nagib (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Name of the Article
I propose that this article be renamed to Sham Al Nassim or Sham El Nassim, as to more accurately represent its pronunciation in Egyptian Arabic, where the Al/El is more pronounced. I understand that the current name originates from Coptic, but this should be mentioned in the alternative names area, not as the full name of the article. Nyxession (talk) 11:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Multiple issues - currently spreading misinformation
This article has multiple issues with unfounded claims about the origin and etymology of this fairly modern Egyptian festival with almost all references pointing to one unreliable source (Asante, Molefi Kete (2002)) which cites no references for its claims. This reference should be removed and unsupported claims also removed. As it is this page is spreading misinformation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.178.222 (talk) 10:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)