Talk:Shame/Archive 1

Definition
Reading the definition of guilt & shame, they seem very similar -- is the principal difference that in guilt one feels regret? -- Tarquin

I will attempt to make some distinctions here using psychological sources. Please suggest other possible sources.66.15.140.3 19:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need an article that it seems appreciate that wikitionary covers? If there is shame, then why not regret, not disgrace, not embarrassment, not dishonor, etc, etc... -- Taku 21:05 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)


 * I added this article because I believed it was necessary to explain some of the motivation behind Japanese culture -- as I understood it. I'm not wedded to the existence of this article (unlike some people I've crossed swords here in Wikipedia), but if I'm advocating an incorrect viewpoint, then I'd like an explanation why I'm incorrect.


 * Shame refers to one's internalized discomfort from doing something incorrect, & being seen by others. In US culture, there is much shame surrounding public nudity & sexual practices. A dishonored public figure (say, Trent Lott -- although you could probably pick Bill Clinton if you think I'm being unfairly partisan) doesn't show shame in US culture, although he/she might demonstrate guilt. (It's been known to happen.)


 * Guilt is a far more private emotion. As I feel it (& have heard it described), guilt does not depend on the opinions of other people: it is a tension between one's own sense of right & the act that causes guilt. Guilt has more of an effect in the non-sexual side of US affairs, & seems to be mostly used by parents on their children.


 * I'm unaware that anthropology has discredited this viewpoint, but my cultural anthropology classes were back in the late 1970's, & I may have remembered this distinction from an even older text. -- llywrch 01:04 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)


 * shame <- ethics, guilt <- morals lysdexia 12:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The definition of shame is said to be a form of social control. While this may be true in some cases, the way it is said in the description indicates that shame is a social construction. This is not true in most cases. One can say that social frames are based on how shame may naturally arise, or that cultures may intentionally create an artificial feeling of shame for a behavior which it deems obscene. To call it a form of social control is really putting a "The Guys at the Top use Shame to Manipulate the Sheep" flavor to the general definition of shame.

Why was 'shaming' redirected to this page? The term 'shaming' has been used to denote the cultural phenomena which deserves its own article. If someone can recommend a different title since 'shaming' might be defined as 'the act of inducing shame upon other individuals', that would be fine.

Fred Bauder posted it just fine on August 10th.

"Shaming is the act of disgracing an individual who has had altogether too much to drink and consequently passes out first on a given evening. Upon that person's fall from grace, his or her comrades proceed to perform all manner of mischevious deeds on their comatose body. The predominant purposes of shaming are for the amusement of the shamers, and for the humiliation of the recipient of the shaming, often as a punishment for not being able to hold his or her alcohol. Common shamings include the scarification of the person's face with permanent markers, dousing the sap with bags of flour, applying toothpaste to his or her person, or using powerful adhesives to bond both skin and inanimate object on the person's body. More complex shamings involve building structures on or around the unconscious person, moving the person to different and often humorous locales, and binding the person to whatever they have unwittingly selected as the site for their downfall." --Redconfetti 19:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Request for Supporting Data.
The introductory paragraph concludes with "Intense shame may lead to depression or suicide." Can anyone please provide valid, scientific data to support this statement?
 * Can you provide valid, scientific data that Shame exists? All we have is the account of a few billion human beings - all of whom could be lying, for all we know. Not very scientific at all!

Supporting Data can be found in the following article:

Suicide and Shame by HARTMUT B. MOKROS

American Behavioral Scientist, Vol. 38, No. 8, 1091-1103 (1995) Deepsoulstarfish 18:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

to 'request'
a quick google scholar search shows many scientific papers on shame so it probably exists. Good question on depression and suicide. From my own experience with a shame based church it seems to me that shame is something to be overcome especially when it is false shame. For example the bible explicitly shames all things of the 'flesh' and exalts all things 'spiritual' which to me now is absurd. It took me decades to toss away that bible-babble based shame.

objective or subjective causes of shame
How is shame caused? I notice that what 'shames' one person might amuse the next. For example at GITMO our fine intelligence officers use sexual teases, taunts and other stunts to shame Muslim terrorist suspects. Some fundamentalist suspects break down in shame and rage, others who have lived in the West just laugh at their tormentors. To me this article needs a lot of work to capture the full essence of shame.

I also come from a religious background that uses shame to teach, control and punish it's members. I believe shame is a subject that deserves an article because it is a taboo emotion that needs to become better known. It also forms the COVERT locus of control for all societies I know of. In the United States Stalinist gender feminists who claim victimhood-as-saint status are particulary effective at using shame in politics. For example the claim that 'rape is not about sex...it is about power' is a ridiculous statement used to shame violent men while letting 'vice-ent' women off the hook. Shame can be a powerful form of political control because it allows those who claim the high moral ground (rightly or wrongly) to dictate terms to everyone else.

Introduction/definition/distinctions
I tried to tighten this up with references. However, there seem to be few good general references on this topic. Please comment or suggest how to proceed and how to organize\clean up the remainder of the article.

Anacapa 02:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Work of Thomas Scheff
I think the work of TJ Scheff (Professor Emeritus of Sociology, University of California, Santa Barbara) should be mentioned in this article. He is a major influence on John Bradshaw, and he is a leading academic researcher into Shame as an emotion, and its role in in social processes. Google him and you will find relevant articles.

Just claiming this now that I know how to sign: Deepsoulstarfish 02:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Religion section
Added an NPOV claim.

All the examples given in the religion section associate religion with very bad things -- abuse, torture, etc. -- in a way which I suggest violates WP:NPOV. I would suggest adding counterexamples which present religion in a different light. A famous one is described in Stanley Milgram's work Obedience to Authority, in which one of the case studies, a professor of theology, explained that he successfully refused to obey because of his religious faith, which gave him internal support to overcome the social pressure others felt to obey an authority figure. Because of this faith he, unlike most of the other participants in the experiment, even many who ultimately succeeded in refusing, was able to disobey authority without shame. The article should reflect the fact that the existence of religious perceptions that there is a source of moral values separate from the wishes of human authority figures has been perceived to have positive as well negative implications for shame as it affects people's ability to act autonomously. --Shirahadasha 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

In addition, the section appears to contain general statements about religion that appear to reflect an individual's personal value system and aren't universally held. For example, the statement that "Religions that claim only God or other spiritual beings are perfect in that sense impute a certain kind of shame on human beings." I believe this sort of opinion should be attributed as someone's specific opinon rather than presented as a general fact. For example, many secular philosophies also claim that humans are sometimes imperfect. Whether this "imputes" shame or not depends on the quite independent belief that being imperfect is in and of itself shameful -- something that by no means all religions (or secular philosophies) believe. It would appear that the article reflects as fact a particular individual's inferences regarding shame based on that individual's value system. The individual should be identified; the view of religion involved is not universal. Best, --Shirahadasha 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of content to Talk section
Reason: This section (except for the paragraph I added from Stanley Milgram appears to cite a single source, a legal magazine (not a psychological publication) describing a single incident in which an Amish woman was shunned by her community after having reported sexual abuse. There doesn't seem to be any WP:Reliable Sources supporting any of the claims made as required by Wikipedia's Verification policy. In light of the controversial nature of the material and the complete lack of sources, I am removing it to the Talk section pending further discussion. Please feel free to move material back if an editor can come up with sources supporting some or all of this content. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Note that there are many people who believe religion is unhealthy etc. It is not my intention to leave the article unbalanced in favor of religion (I'm leaving the NPOV tag in place to reflect that the article is now unbalanced in the opposite direction). But without sources or attribution, there is no way to tell which content represents a recognized expert theory, and which content represents nothing more than the personal opinion of a Wikipedia editor. --Shirahadasha 04:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Shame is a key (if controversial) theme in religion. Religions that claim only God or other spiritual beings are perfect in that sense impute a certain kind of shame on human beings. In many cases, that shame is associated with sexuality and other carnal characteristics of human beings, though others would argue that only sinful expressions of those characterstics should be shameful.


 * Religious faith can create the basis for shame because shame reflects internalized ideas as to what is right and proper and about what is wrong and improper. This means that torture tactics intended to shame religious adherents might merely titillate other people (e.g., nudity). Conversely, religions may associate honor with certain behaviors (e.g, martyrdom in Christianity, veils in Islam) that others consider shameful. The ideas and the strength with which religious (and other) ideas are held seems to influence whether shame occurs and how much shame occurs in a subject.


 * Shaming and sometimes shunning is a theme in many religions as tactic to control disorderly members. In some cases a church member can be shamed and shunned for reporting abuses that happen inside churches.  The infamous case of Mary Byler  an Amish woman who was shunned for reporting repeated rapes by her relatives is one extreme example of the use of shunning to enforce order within a church.

Redirect
Why does Shame (song) redirect to here? Xiner (talk, email) 16:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Shame is the fear to be evaluated by other people as a bad man = to be social outcast.

What this article needs
Is a .gif of a hands doing the two finger tsk tsk shaming motion. --NEMT 02:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I was very disappointed at the discussion of religious shame. Religious shame and religious shaming have distorted or destroyed the lives of thousands of homosexuals. Why is the only reference here a positive one, and so far as I can see, related to resisting authority rather than the use of religious shame? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.168.254 (talk) 22:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Encapuchado Rosa.jpg
I've added the picture. Please comment. By all means remove it if you think it's bad. --Simon Speed 17:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)