Talk:Shangdu

Poem
Just for general info, I edited the last sentence of the article to clarify that the film "Xanadu" is a reference to Coleridge's Poem "Kubla Khan" and not to Kane's estate.

Poem
Kublah Khan is not necessarily describing Xanadu...it is actually an allegory which some even believe to be about sexual intercourse. --Ari89 02:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

don't some sources (m-w.com for example_ say xanadu is a made up word? and it is true that Xanadu the poem is not meant as a literal description

Xanadu the poem? Are you talking about Kublah Khan by COleridge?--Ari89 16:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The poem Kublah Khan is at least inspired by by Xanadu the city, and worth note because it is the main venue for most people's knowledge of the word. Also, even if the word "Xanadu" is made up by westerners, it is the name that the majority of the world knows it by.--The reverend 01:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Perhaps we could add a note on pronunciation. I believe "khanadoo" is the correct, but I've only heard "zannadoo" as the pronunciation for the place. Andelarion 11:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Titan
Xanadu is also a region/continent on Saturn moon Titan. 89.57.145.86 23:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I am pretty sure Kublai Khan had nothing to do with that Xanadu. Altgeld (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Hurstcastle
In Citizen Cane, Hurstcastle is called Xanadu. 67.188.172.165 04:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you acually mean Hearst Castle? &mdash;QuicksilverT @ 07:56, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Location and size
I have simplified the location to degrees, minutes and seconds. 0.01 of a second is about 30cm (one foot) and it is not sensible to give the location of a huge structure to that level of precision. I have also added figures for the dimensions of the inner and outer cities and the palace. All this information is derived from satellite imagery available on Google Earth as at 11 Nov 2006. FitzHugh 00:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it worth noting that walls run exactly North-South/East-West (from Google Earth)? Rather a fine achievement for 1256... Oscar Bravo (talk) 20:22, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Popular culture
It seems a bit odd that the Xanadu in popular culture section is longer than the main part of the text. -- Beardo (talk) 23:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is disproportionate. This appears because people are using items that can be found on the disambiguation page and also items that have no reference to this usage of the word, such as the stagehand named Xanadu from a garage band, (whose own wiki page reads like a religious argument and describes him as a "...friend Xanadu, who is a glorified stage hand"). Neither that persons name, nor his description, makes any mention of it having to do with this version of Xanadu.


 * This page is about this particular usage of the word, a specific location - if the pop-culture references have nothing to do with Xanadu the location described herein, then they should be removed. Lightertack (talk) 17:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

needed?
This section doesn't really belong here, does it? "The Mongol Emperors of the Yuan Dynasty made very few changes to China, imbibing much of the Confucianist and Taoist philosophies, and remodeling their government on the native dynasties they had defeated. However, they opened up the empire to westerners, allowing travelers like Venetian explorer Marco Polo in 1275 to report the wonders of the Eastern capital to their fellow Europeans." what does it have to do with Xanadu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.90.238 (talk) 00:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Proper lemma
Previous editors have made it their policy to move any of the appearances of Xanadu in Western culture, beginning with and referring back to Marco Polo, someplace else and focused this article on Kublai Khan's actual city. I must disagree with this.

The Chinese/Mongolian city was not called "Xanadu" - it was called Shangdu and hence should be placed under that lemma.

It was transcribed as Xanadu by Marco Polo and then took on a life of its own, as a symbol of splendour, a legendary place or (after Citizen Kane) a self-created prison. Hence an explanation of this symbolism should be under the lemma "Xanadu".

Wikilinks confirm this as most "real history" links go through Shangdu, while most links to "Xanadu" are references to one of the many cultural references.

The disambiguation page should merely be a list of occurences from Kublai Khan's to Bill Gates' residence.

Please comment. I will file a move the page request in the foreseeable future. 18:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * With the scarcity of historical refs we don't need 2 separate articles for the poem and the real city. Shii (tock) 18:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

89.164.231.121 (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)Another song: Dave Dee, Dozy, Becky, Mick and Tich (British group) had a hit "Legend of Xanadu" in 60ies

Kaiping ?
The provided link for Kaiping leads to a city in the south of China. Shangdu is in the North. How could it be ? Obviously not the same Kaiping.82.230.80.120 (talk) 15:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed, here "Kaiping" is just an early name for Shangdu, without any connection to the city in Guangdong. Delinked. --Vmenkov (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move
See the discussion at Talk:Xanadu (disambiguation). —sroc (talk) 22:45, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Xanadu (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:00, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus seems clear that the majority of modern reliable sources refer to the place as "Shangdu", which renders the discussion about what disambiguation to use moot. Jenks24 (talk) 07:31, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Xanadu, Inner Mongolia → Shangdu – Mostly aesthetics. Is the term "inner Mongolia" applicable to Kublai Khan's summer capital? I guess it might be, but is it often used? Srnec (talk) 22:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Oppose according to our article, it would be "Sanadu" (or Xanadu), since this article is about the ancient capital, which would use the Mongolian pronounciation, not the Mandarin pronounciation. It predates the Mandarin dialect, and passed into the West under "Xanadu". If this article isn't about the current site, then it should use the spelling associated with the ancient capital. Xanadu, Mongolian Empire or something would be a better title. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. "The titles of Chinese entries should follow current academic conventions, which generally means Hanyu Pinyin without tone marks," per WP:PINYIN. "Xanadu" is a poetic form anglicized from Shangdu, not Mongolian. If you're talking about the city as an actual place, it is Shangdu (pinyin) or Shang-tu (Wade-Giles). See Xinhua, Cambridge History of China, National Geographic, or Historical Dictionary of Mongolia. Kauffner (talk) 05:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment "Xanadu" the traditional English name for the location. WP:UE -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 05:22, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Xandu" was the traditional English name until the night Coleridge passed out beside a copy of Purchas. Coleridge added a syllable (to make it more poetic?) the next day and his invention has stuck.  —  AjaxSmack   06:26, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Before pinyin, the name of this city was given as "Shang-tu," as you can see from Britannica 1911. Kauffner (talk) 06:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Modern secondary sources seem to prefer "Shangdu" overwhelmingly. I did a search at my university library, and came up with dozens of books and articles on the subject, including Steinhardt's Chinese Imperial City Planning, Chia et al.'s Knowledge and Text Production in Ancient China, Orzech et al's Esoteric Buddhism and the Tantras in East Asia, Fong's Inner Quarters and Beyond, Kaplonski's The History of Mongolia, and Xue's Chinese City and Urbanism: Evolution and Development. "Shang-tu" is also present, but is less common and appears to be mostly used in older sources. Returns for Xanadu are plentiful, but I saw few if any that were relevant to this topic; most refer to Coleridge or the various other things called "Xanadu". I also agree with others that "Inner Mongolia" is not the best disambiguator for a Yuan-era city.--Cúchullain t/ c  14:53, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Comment: The site of the ancient city of Xanadu/Shangdu is located in Inner Mongolia, and it is not like a few towns in the US that span two states. As I explained in my move rationale, ", Inner Mongolia" is preferred over ", China". GotR Talk 23:15, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this article about a current site called Xanadu in Inner Mongolia or is it about a medieval Mongolian capital city that no longer exists? I don't oppose your move; it was an improvement. Srnec (talk) 23:22, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I daresay the latter. GotR Talk 23:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the "Inner Mongolia" is awkward to say the least. The disambiguator should be "city" (as in Xanadu (city)) to disambiguate it from the other Xanadus, which are not cities. —  AjaxSmack  04:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That would work for me. Srnec (talk) 06:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name change back to Xanadu.
Xanadu is the place people are looking for. It strikes me as parochial to insist on Chinese PRC pinyin. Why not Wade-Giles? Or, why not just call it Xanadu since that is what people are looking for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.163.36.90 (talk) 18:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

When was it "summer capital"?
The current intro paragraph is self-contradictory. First it says that "was the summer capital of the Yuan dynasty of China before Kublai decided to move his throne to... present-day Beijing" (emphasis added), but then immediately says that "Shangdu then [i.e., after the move to Beijing] became his summer capital."

So, was it the summer capital before the capital moved to Beijing, or after? Or Both?

Needs to be clarified. Lemur in the Sky (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)