Talk:Shapeshifting/Archive 1

vague sentence about authors who write about transmogrification
This bit:

"Transmogrification is not a theme used several times in the Jerry Cornelius stories, and should be done in the worl of funcation in most of Jack L. Chalker's books. "

seems a bit incoherent, but I'm not sure how to correct it. Someone who has read the works in question may know what to say instead.... I will probably fix the bit about Chalker, as I've read some of his books, but leave the Cornelius bit alone, as I haven't read those stories. -- Jim Henry

Soul-stealing as transformation?
Shang Tsung, an evil sorcerer who steals the souls of his opponents upon defeating them in the Mortal Kombat video game series.


 * How does this connect with shapeshifting or physical transformation? --Jim Henry | Talk 6 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)


 * He uses it for youth. It is more of a fountain of youth effect than shape-shifting. I think he should be listed on a page about magical youth, but not here. Fireofall (talk) 13:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Kafka?
Someone deleted the reference to Gregor Samsa in The Metamorphosis. Why is that not relevant? Samsa is "not a shapeshifter" if you restrict that term to signify someone who can voluntarily change his shape or who regularly changes shape involuntarily, but should we restrict the term in that way? If so, we should delete or heavily edit several of the existing references to other stories and characters, and add another section or another article about physical transformation in general (not so restricted). --Jim Henry | Talk 6 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)

I'll stash the deleted paragraph here for convenient access when we decide to add it back:


 * The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka, in which the main character wakes up to find himself transformed into a large insect-like creature.


 * I agree, this is clearly relevant to "shapeshifting" - the term doesn't inherently specify whether it's voluntary or not, or whether it's a result of the shapeshifter's own ability or externally imposed. I'm adding it back. Bryan 7 July 2005 05:22 (UTC)


 * We're allowing werewolves, and their transformation is no more voluntary than is the fellow's in Metamorphosis; I agree that he should stay.


 * Atlant 7 July 2005 11:40 (UTC)

Manakeet?

 * Manakeet -- a mythilogical creature, usually present in modern day video game RPGs. Takes the form of a human who can transform into a dragon at will.


 * This may need to be rephrased; it sounds as though a majority of recent RPGs include Manakeeet characters. I haven't played many recent RPGs so I don't know for sure that this is false, but somehow I doubt it. --Jim Henry | Talk 00:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I checked out the Manakeet page on this site, and it would imply that Manakeets exist only in Fire Emblem: the Sacred Stones. If that's true, surely the entry belongs in the fiction section, not the myth. Or can someone provide evidence of pre-Nintendo use of the word?


 * Manaketes are only from the Fire Emblem series, for that matter the word Manakete is made up by Nintendo of America and doesn't match the original term (Mamkute), not that that matches any 'real' mythology anyway. --Dark Twilkitri 09:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The "Breath of Fire" series has a main character who can do this. I don't think the term 'Manakeet' is ever applied to him, though. Maybe a term that's a bit more general? --Whynnd 09:33, 29 October 2006

Gender-Shifting
This page only mentions Human-Animal shifting, there needs to be more info about Male-Female shifting, which is a common mythological trait worldwide, and interesting in its own right. I had trouble finding any useful information on Wikipedia. There were only articles about transsexualism and sex reassignment surgery etc. which of course is a different thing. I don't know how common the word "gender-shifting" is, but it does at least carry some popularity in fandom circles. 惑乱 分からん 12:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone recently added something about gender-shifting in Greek and Norse mythology; anyone care to write something about the theme in modern sf/fantasy fiction, or computer games, or film...? --Jim Henry 18:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

According to my knowledge Odin, the highest Norse god, wasn't shifting into female. "Lokassena" only states that he taked the role of a woman, wich was a reference to him as the highest master of special kind of magic called seidr that could be done only by a person who was a passive participant of sexual intercourse and only a woman could do it without being dishonored (yes, medieval Norse were homophobic). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.243.117.101 (talk) 12:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No it wasn't. Loki explicitly described him as having given birth and nursed the baby.  69.183.35.54 (talk) 03:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Merge
This page is about fictional shape-shifting. There is no need for a separate page. Goldfritha 02:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Which specific other page do you think this should be merged with? --Jim Henry 14:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Shapeshifting fiction --Goldfritha 23:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes. I remember now and see that I suggested a merge myself back in August.  I agree there is no logic to the current division.  Maybe a more logical division -- either between two articles, or in sections within one Shapeshifting article -- would be "Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore" vs. "Shapeshifting in modern sf and fantasy"?


 * If we merge them, we could just move in the "Psychology of transformation fiction" section pretty much as-is to this article, then merge the most notable items of the lists in Shapeshifting fiction into the relevant lists in this article. Some of the list items in both articles are not very notable and could be trimmed or moved to a "list of shapeshifters" article.  Does anyone object to this mode of proceeding? --Jim Henry 22:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

While we're at it, maybe this paragraph (with slight edits) could be moved from Transformation Story Archive to the merged Shapeshifting article:


 * One may distinguish two broad patterns in the role transformation or shapeshifting plays in the stories in the archive. In some, an unexpected but welcome transformation (especially various forms of lycanthropy) plays a thematic role similar to the plot device of the protagonist being a commoner who finds out they are actually royal, or have unsuspected magical talent, or have some other wonderful secret destiny.  In others, a transformation imposed from without by a hostile entity is a challenge to be overcome; the protagonist seeks a way to reverse the transformation and regain their original form.  In many such stories, the final resolution involves the unwillingly transformed protagonist coming to terms with his or her new shape and turning it to their advantage rather than finding a way to return to "normal".

Those comments probably apply to the shapeshifting genre (if there is such a genre) as a whole, not just to the amateur shapeshifting fiction in the Transformation Story Archive. --Jim Henry 22:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes, except for one fact. Since the May 6 version when the merge tag was introduced the shapeshifting article has grown considerably larger. I have concerns that an article merging shapeshifting and shapeshifting fiction might be too large, especially if new information continues to be added. So my vote is no. One of the main reasons that any two pages aren't combined is that there is so much information on that subject that it is easier on users to treat different aspects in different articles. Blue Milk Mathematician 02:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Different aspects in different article, maybe, but there's no rhyme or reason in putting some in "shapeshifting" and some in "shapeshifting in fiction" -- do you have any ideas about how they should be split up? Goldfritha 02:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggested a Shapeshifting article with "Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore" and "Shapeshifting in modern sf and fantasy" sections, and moving the less notable items from the several lists into a separate "list of shapeshifters in fiction" article. Perhaps it would make sense to have, instead, Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore and Shapeshifting in modern sf and fantasy as separate articles?  Let's try the merge and see how long the resulting article is before we do that. --Jim Henry 16:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm fixing to go ahead and start merging material from Shapeshifting fiction into this article, and moving the less notable items from the lists into List of shapeshifters. --Jim Henry 14:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've finished the merge. I merged the material about genres and themes, while moving most of the list of specific novels, movies, games, webcomics etc into the List of shapeshifters.  The latter could probably stand to be pruned of its less notable items, and it needs to be better organized (I've made a stab at it but there's more to do).  And maybe the most notable items should be moved/copied to this main article. --Jim Henry 14:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge? (discussion moved here from Talk:Shapeshifting fiction)
Should this be merged into Shapeshifting? Or should some of the material from that article be moved hither? --Jim Henry | Talk 21:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

There's not enough for two articles, I think. Also, while the shapeshifting one mentions involuntary transformations, both articles concentrate on those that are voluntary. Should the involuntary transformations be split off? Goldfritha 02:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Added a link to the list of shapeshifters, which I think makes the list here redundant. Goldfritha 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The other article has recently grown a great deal, and I'd advise against a merge. --Kizor 16:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's growing, sure, but there's neither rhyme nor reason to why some things are in this article and some in others. If the topic needs to be split up, I think a more rational division is needed.  Goldfritha 23:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * See the recent discussion in Talk:Shapeshifting. If no one objects I'll start working on the merge soon. --Jim Henry 14:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Shape shifting for real?
Not that I want to sound like some cult extremist, but I would like to see some stuff on shape shifting in real life. I have seen documented stuff all over the web but none of it actually gives out clear information, without a price. Just something to think about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.114.141.8 (talk • contribs).

It is unlikely you ever will see a clear example of Shapeshifting. In his Book 'The Occult' Colin Wilson talks of what he calls 'the Spirit Mafia'. This is the routine where Spirit beings without exception arrive at any incident where Occult phenomena has been exposed and immediately discredit the witnesses to such an incident. Johnwrd (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Popular media and gaming
More popular media and gaming overage required, look at warcraft 3's Night elf druids, cast's of bird and cast's for the bear druids who could change at will. Links to cenarius as well, the god of nature,change and druidic magic in old lore. -Lewis


 * There are a fair number of gaming items in List of shapeshifters. Perhaps this article could stand to have an overview of how shapeshifting is used in games, how it affects their dynamics, etc.?  I am not the person to write that, but if you take a stab at it I'll help edit it. --Jim Henry 17:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed bit on characters who can control their shapeshifting
This paragraph doesn't belong (as is) in the section on "psychology of transformation fiction":


 * Some stories involve shape-shifters who can control their power. (For example Nymphadora Tonks and Sirius Black in the Harry Potter Series.)

Does anyone care to take a stab at writing about how the psychology or theme of the story differs when a character is in full control of the transformation as opposed to having it imposed on them from without, or having it happen spontaneously? --Jim Henry 17:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Shapeshifting in Science Fiction, Especially the Amorphous Kinds
There is a whole class of Shapeshifter missing from this article:

Technological ones like the liquid-metal (some might describe the fictional technology as nanotechnological) T-1000 in Terminator 2 and the T-X in Terminator 3 movies or the Grey goo scinario Molecular nanotechnology out of control explored in the novel Blood Music, which takes the shapeshifting theme well beyond the anthropomorphic.

In turn, there is the shape shifter depicted in John Carpenter's movie, "The Thing", and "The Ancient Enemy" in the movie/book Phantoms, which is able to mimic any creature that it consumes. It might e argued that both creatures take inspiration from the the shapeshifting Shoggoth described in H. P. Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness":


 * "It was a terrible, indescribable thing vaster than any subway train – a shapeless congerie of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and un-forming as pustules of greenish light all over the tunnel-filling front that bore down upon us, crushing the frantic penguins and slithering over the glistening floor that it and its kind had swept so evilly free of all litter." — H. P. Lovecraft, At The Mountains of Madness


 * "The shoggoths are the slave race created by the Elder Things. Before native life arose on the Earth, the Elder Things bioengineered the shoggoths to serve as living construction equipment. Being amorphous, they could take on any shape their controllers desired, making them very versatile within their aquatic environment. Though they could "understand" the Elder Things' language, they had no conscious minds of their own, obeying their masters only through hypnotic suggestion." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoggoth

This in turn brings us to consider totally non anthropomorphic, 'non-animal', 'Shoggoth-ish' shape shifters such as "The Blob" which never takes on any human or animal form but is able to change shape at will.

In this light, what also of the concept of the "body without organs" motif in the writings of post modern theorists Gilles Deleuze and Félix Guattari] and teh concept of "[[Abjection" as developed in the work of Julia Kristeva?

Then again, we might also consider the theme of shape shifting as it relates to contemporary body modification practices and transhumanism.

I would like to advocate for these to be dealt with in this article, though I would not know where to start. I think the article is excellent as is, but it's not complete since it lacks proper treatment of these contemporary shape shifters. I am willing to tackle the development of a new section, but I would like suggestions regarding how to work it into the existing article as I am less familiar with the shape shifters dealt with in the existing article and how they relate to the ones listed here.

Thanks. --Betamod 08:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

"Mythology and Folklore" --> "Folklore" only?
Several references to "mythology and folklore" have been simplified to say just "folklore". Why? --Jim Henry 15:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Odin's female form?
The Lokasenna doesn't seem to mention anything about Odin bearing female form, Loki just teases Odin that the practice of seidr itself is a shameful, unmanly behavior. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 00:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * He describes him as bearing children and nursing them. Given that Odin then charges Loki with the same thing, and we know that Loki was indeed the mother of one child, Ockham's Razor would seem to point to it being what he says.  69.183.35.54 (talk) 03:51, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Needs moar genies!
Genies. They can shapeshift--78.89.25.55 18:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know of any connection between genies and shapeshifting. The wiki article doesn't mention anything except that they can "transform themselves into humans," but since they are spirits, I take that as being more the ability to disguise themselves. Can you give some examples and sources? Putrescent stench 21:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In here you can find some hadith that say genies can shapeshift into snakes and dogs, Those hadith might be have been forged but its still noteworthy in this article--78.89.25.55 16:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
The magical car might not quite belong here, but if not where else? Springnuts 17:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No mention of pinochio?
from puppet to donkey as a punishment. and to real boy as a reward.

Length of article
After recent edits, the article is 34 kilobytes long. What can we best trim or spin off to a sub-article? Could the less notable of the many mythological shapeshifters added recently be moved to List of shapeshifters? Or could we move the whole mythological/folkloric shapeshifting section to Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore? --Jim Henry 17:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore strikes me as a good idea, because it's not just a list. Also splitting off the psychology, etc stuff to Shapeshifting in psychology or the like.  Goldfritha 01:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Psychology of shapeshifting might be a better title than Shapeshifting in psychology, but otherwise that sounds good. --Jim Henry 18:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The article was 34kb when we talked (to no purpose, apparently) about breaking it into subarticles a couple of years ago. It's 60kb now. What about if we move most of the mythology/folklore the material to a new Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore article and most of the modern fiction examples to List of shapeshifters? Keep the high-level stuff here, such as the psychology section. --Jim Henry (talk) 22:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article has clearly gone unattended for some time, and needs serious editorial attention, pruning and cleanup. It is an excellent collection of raw material, but not an encyclopedic article in the narrow sense. The overwhelming amount of pop culture material should probably be split out again, to Shapeshifting fiction. Psychology of shapeshifting is also a good idea. Further, this article should concentrate on mythological shapeshifting, in mythology, folklore, fairy tales etc. Science fiction concepts of "transmogrification" etc. is obviously a derivation of this, but we should take care to treat it separately. --dab (𒁳) 08:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you mean, science fictional shapeshifting should be spun off to a separate article from fantasy/mythology shapeshifting, or should have a separate section within the main article, or what?
 * I agree we need to clean up the article, and spinning off all but the most notable modern fiction examples should probably help a lot. I'm not sure the psychology section is long enough to justify splitting a new article though. --Jim Henry (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)--Jim Henry (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Note: at present List of shapeshifters, List of shapeshifters in myth and fiction and Shapeshifting fiction are all redirects to this article. Which if any should be revived to take on the stuff we're going to prune from this article? --Jim Henry (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Tautology?
This sentence,
 * In the Twilight series by Stephenie Meyer, the Quileute Werewolves are proven to actually be shapeshifters during the fourth book, Breaking Dawn.

is tautological as it stands: by the general definition used in the article, werewolves are a subset of shapeshifters. What did the author of this sentence mean by it? That said werewolves had the power to change into any arbitrary form but had been limiting themselves to human and wolf forms by custom or habit...? --Jim Henry (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The point I think was supposed to be that while they are shapeshifters and the wolf is their animal form, they aren't werewolves. Transforming into a wolf does not make someone a werewolf by default. They turn into wolves, but they do not have the other traits that identify werewolves, such as eating people. 68.205.68.57 (talk) 02:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Should this article mention ...
The proponent for satanic characters in religion, fiction and mythology being shapeshifters? After all, Satan himself is depicted as a shapeshifter in Christianity (turning into a snake in the garden of Eden and all that) as is Iblis in Islam I believe, Set from Egyptian myth is portrayed as a shapeshifter (turns into a snake, a hippopotamous and a crocodile) as are Morgoth and Sauron from the works of Tolkien and Loki, arguably the most famous mythological shapeshifter is often portrayed as a satanic character. Does anybody else think it worth a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk • contribs) 19:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The link, Therianthropy (fiction), leads to Shape-shifting. Shouldn't it lead to Therianthropy instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.171.130.198 (talk) 18:11, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Transformers
I think that Transformers universe has a lot to do with shapeshifting becaus all of the transformers have at least 2 forms between they shift. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.191.39.41 (talk) 21:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Archangels
I remember reading an unusual story about an archangel of Jesus who could shapeshift into a unicorn. There should maybe be additional  sources about related claims that archangels can do this. ADM (talk) 03:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Splitting away "Shapeshifting in popular culture"
There are times when lists cannot be avoided in Wikipedia. I am presently working on some WWII articles, where there are lists galore. Shall we delete all those lists of allies? Shall we delete the lists of other notable items indiscriminately? In this case we are providing readers with examples of the subject as seen and heard in popular culture. Showing examples like this can be crucial to an understanding of the subject. This article is getting a bit long, so rather than going against WP:Preserve, why not write a spinoff article and leave a brief summary and pointer link in this article? &mdash;  .`^) Paine Ellsworthdiss`cuss (^`.   22:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Strong Agree -> I'm putting a banner up --Jules.LT (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Strong oppose. It is completely arbitrary to draw a line between shapeshifting as an element of traditional mythology as it appears in the cultures of the world and shapeshifting as it manifests in contemporary (Western) popular culture. Instead, there is a strong continuity from earlier Western folklore into the current cultural theme, with influence from other cultures. This article would become a cripple without including a section about contemporary popular culture. However, it should probably be integrated better into the article and made less list-like. If needed, another article along the lines of List of works in popular culture with shapeshifting as an important element (or something more concise) could be created, but the main body of text should remain as a part of this article. — Kompar (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Has this topic been closed? Is the conclusion to keep it on this page? If so, please remove the banner. Wiki-uk (talk) 17:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have removed the 'split' template. Please put it back if you want to renew the discussion. Wiki-uk (talk) 16:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Know this a stupid q but i want to know if shape shifters real?
please anwser below i am writing a book about a boy who is a shape shifter and i need lots of info so if you have anymore info ill glady use it on my book!thz! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taylorswiftsbiggestfan (talk • contribs) 23:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * *Facepalm* This had better be a troll.  No, shapeshifters aren't real, just like vampires and werewolves and the new world order... *Bangs head on desk* Ian.thomson (talk) 00:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

reference to vampires shapeshifting into wolves and bats
I've done considerable research on vampires, and this statement is absolute rubbish. Certainly one might be able to find some folkloric reference somewhere of a vampire that could become a bat or a wolf, but this is not even close to a theme in vampire folklore. To the best of my knowledge, a vampire's ability to take the shape of a bat or a wolf was an invention of Stoker and has no basis in Slavic or Greek folklore. The origins of the term Vampire Bat are likewise inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.182.174.177 (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with the above, vampire bats almost certainly got their name from their tendency to suck blood from animals, the vampire transforming into a bat legend probably came after that information became more widespread. FreemDeem (talk) 02:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

New sections go at the bottom. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Why Forms of Shapeshifting is important and relevant.
I am the original author of the 'forms of shapeshifting' segment of this article. I was very disappointed and confused to see that the section had been completely removed. I don't know who did it or why, but I highly suggest it be returned or else I'd like it if someone could explain to me why exactly it was removed. I know it was starting to rabble with some of the additions by other authors, but that calls for a clean up, not a total deletion. The forms of shapeshifting points out common formulas for transfiguration, addressing such matters as losing/not losing of clothes, the 'two bodies' effect, and the patterns of alteration. Unless somebody objects, I intend to return the article to its rightful place and perform the necessary edits to make it a concise source of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SwanofWar (talk • contribs) 23:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, that was yeeears ago... Digging through your contributions, it didn't appear to actually cite reliable sources and it went against the no original research guideline.  There's also some text just below the "save page" button that says "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here."  Editting can include deletion, especially if there aren't any citations.  Also, please sign your posts with four tidles ( ~ ).  Ian.thomson (talk) 23:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

link to disambiguation
it would be nice if "shapeshifter" and "shapeshifting" could be redirected to the disambiguation, or at least include a link to the same. thanks. if this isn't the right place, please forward this to a mod 92.195.184.84 (talk) 15:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapeshifting_%28disambiguation%29


 * New stuff goes at the bottom. I believe the usual procedure is to put "for other uses, see (article) (diambiguation)" at that top.  Went on ahead and did that. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

M-Shifts, P-Shifts etc
If anyone knows of any sources that explain these categorizations, please speak your brains into the article :) 78.144.200.73 (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Improve organization
I think the organization of this article is confusing and it's difficult to know where to put the information, on the themes section or the mythology section. However, I'm not sure which will be the best way to reorganize it. Any ideas?

Thanks! Andromeda (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)