Talk:Shark cage diving

Merger proposal
I propose merging Shark proof cage and Shark baiting and renaming as Shark cage diving. Both articles are small and both are components of the shark cage diving activity, so consolidating them is logical. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:33, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Discuss

No objections noted, so I will consider this uncontroversial and make the merge and move at my convenience. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:05, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge done, move next. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Move also done. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:29, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

New biased section added
The newly added section "Shark Tourism and Cage Diving" does not have a neutral point of view and features phrases such as "I personally believe." I'm new here, so... should this be edited or maybe deleted altogether? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.252.150.145 (talk) 04:04, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

The term shark cage diving must be clarified
I will look into Signals, 1971, and see if it is useful as a source for this article. I assume you are aware that as a registered user, you too can add appropriate content to Wikipedia articles. (please ping with reply). Cheers, &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 05:18, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * THE TERM SHARK CAGE DIVING MUST BE CLARIFIED :   There are two vastly different categories of shark cages. One is just a steel or aluminium cage that floats on the surface and is attached to the stern of a boat. This was first used by Jacques Cousteau in the 1950's.  It is  generally used by the tourist industry.   The other one which was invented in 1975 by James M Ellis, is a very involved piece of machinery consisting of 100 meters of umbilical line from a mobile boat. This provides power to drive the cage (pneumatic or hydraulic), air for the diver and operates the variable bouyancy. It also drives the water pump via heat exchange to supply hot water to the diver. These cages are normally used by professional divers. Margesson (talk) 11:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And the self propelled version has a separate section in the article, the sources are a bit crappy, but it's there. It would be better if we had good independent (of inventor etc) WP:RS, and got rid of patent numbers and such. It's unclear to me what's unclear. Ping @Pbsouthwood if you wish to weigh in (he's actually a diver). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I would not have thought a book researched and compiled by the local fishing industry covering the period 1969-2019 could be described as crappy.
 * perhaps a better source is: THE NATIONAL MARITIME MUSEUM SYDNEY.
 * magazine SIGNALS winter 2019 issue 127 pages 58 59 60 61. Margesson (talk) 02:18, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , what is unclear about the term? &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 04:52, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, we prefer not to use all capitals when it is not necessary. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 04:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , you claim: I would not have thought a book researched and compiled by the local fishing industry covering the period 1969-2019 could be described as crappy. What book is this? Where is it used as a reference in the article? Is it accessible? Who described it as crappy?
 * Fwiw, when I said "a bit crappy" I was talking about the sources in the Shark_cage_diving section at the time of my edit, the WP:PATENT and Mental Floss. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Noting that the section has improved, but there is still way too much patent-only stuff in it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Peter.
 * a couple of my friends went to south Africa abalone diving in the 80,s
 * It was Grabergs graa sang who said the early source was a bit crappy. I am now in the process of sending some more articles.
 * Regards margesson Margesson (talk) 11:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * When Peter Southwood said "please ping with reply", he was referring to this: Talk_pages, see point 3. Without it, he will only notice your reply if he happens to look at this page again. Unless he WP:SUBSCRIBE, of course. Good luck! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:37, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have added 8 secondary sources articles.  How can i check if they are listed.
 * Regards margesson Margesson (talk) 08:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked at your edits after July 7, but I don't understand what you mean. Added where? Listed where? What was your intent here:? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * My intension was to add some secondary sources, as i thought you advised the patent was insufficient proof. Under the heading -shark cage diving i scrolled down to- Self propelled version, then (edit source) then (edit summary) then listed the articles then (Publish Changes)
 * Regards margesson Margesson (talk) 09:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but as seen in the diff, all you added was ″″ to the heading. H:PREVIEW may be of help, and WP:TUTORIAL on how and where to add references. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Btw, IMO the current Shark_cage_diving is looking much better, source-wise, but if there are good refs to add, don't let me stop you. "Due to the propulsion system, the divers would exert themselves less and, therefore, might be able to collect molluscs for longer periods of time." Should preferably have a secondary WP:RS ref IMO, but it's not glaringly awful as is. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * can i contact someone in australia who can run me through the editing procedure on the phone ?
 * Regards margesson Margesson (talk) 23:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no idea, I guess you can try asking at Australian Wikipedians' notice board. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you'll find something at helpful. Big caveat, I haven't seen any of them. Also, WP recently had a visual/layout update known as WP:VECTOR2022, so stuff made before that will look slightly different sometimes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no conflict of interest in the self-propelled shark proof cage. I have not been involved in the manufacture of cages or parts since 1990.
 * My only aim is to defend my claim that i conceived, built and patented the first mobile shark proof cage which are now used extensively in the abalone diving industry.
 * Regards margesson. Margesson (talk) 02:47, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This reads like it could be intended as a reply to my question to User:TVR2 below. Are you saying you are using both accounts? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:11, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Grabergs.
 * I was not aware that I was replying to any specific person. ￼ I assume this is an open forum. Are you happy with the secondary sources or would you like more evidence
 * How can I find the exact details require when the article is marked (clarification needed) and who do I explain it to. ￼
 * To suggest my cage is rare and mainly of historical interest doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the documents I have supplied.
 * Thank again for your advice.
 * Regards margesson ￼ Margesson (talk) 10:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't tell from this if you use both accounts (Margesson/TVR2) or not. Your first 3 August comment was indented (WP:INDENT) as a reply to a 23 July post by me (the one that starts "Btw, IMO..."), but there was nothing about conflict of interest in that post, so I am confused. Text-only communication has its difficulties.
 * I commented on sources in the thread below, and I don't have access to the offline ones, so I have no comment on them. On the "clarification needed", tags, try to discuss that with the editor who added them (wasn't me). My own impression is that the current section has MOS:JARGON problems, and that perhaps the amount of text on the Ellis-cage is out of WP:PROPORTION for this WP-article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Shark_cage_diving, again
@Peter Southwood, @TVR2, other interested, hello. This section has been expanded on, I haven't tried to check the new sources, but assume they're ok. What strikes me now is some WP:PROMO-ish language, like makes the vehicle highly manoeuvrable ... significantly increases the diver's comfort ... enabling much freer movement. This reads like someone is trying to sell something.

From my non-diver reading, the text also seems somewhat overly detailed. Opinions, editors?

TVR2, I also want to ask, per Conflict of interest, do you have a conflict of interest regarding Ellis/his cage? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:07, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Should have pinged @Pbsouthwood, sorry. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You have been asked to declare any conflict of interest. You are free to not do so, but that is likely to be construed as having a conflict of interest, so if you don't, it is almost always better to make the declaration. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 12:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ,, The information is a bit detailed, but maybe not excessively so provided it is adequately and correctly sourced. Bear in mind that the sources may also use unencyclopaedic language, which we will moderate. Newspapers and magazines tend to overhype their articles, which we do not accept. Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. I will tag any claims that look exceptional. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 12:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , the article is titled Shark cage diving, not Jim Ellis, or Jim Ellis' self propelled shark cage, so we do not repeat his name so often in a section about one rare type of shark cage of mainly historical interest. I will remove what I consider excessive mention. Once or twice in a section is enough if there is no ambiguity. If you want to write a article about Ellis, or specifically about his shark cage invention, make sure you can show that it is notable by Wikipedia standards, and write that article. In my opinion it might be notable, or might not. I do not have access to the evidence at present. It would be your responsibility to find and list the evidence. If you expect to be relying on publications that are not available on the internet, you might be asked to prove their existence.
 * I cleaned up the paragraph. Much of the content went into WP:NOTHOWTO territory and wasn't sourced anyway. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:10, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That does look better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:05, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Grabergs.
 * I noticed a part of the section regarding the "self-propelled shark cage has been deleted.  Can i talk to whoever deleted it.
 * Regards margesson Margesson (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, you can ping (Help:Talk_pages) them here, or talk at their talkpage. If you don't know who it was, may help you to figure it out. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a pity that 2 Wikipedia pages 'Shark proof cage' and 'Shark baiting' were merged in 2017 onto a new page with a title that no longer represents the development of shark-proof cages for the safety of commercial divers and fishers. This is why there's such a disconnect now. In Australia, most people think of shark-baiting tourism when we hear the term 'shark-cage diving'. Would anyone object to a page title change? A more relevant title for this page would be 'Shark-proof cages and scuba diving'. I understand why the edits were made to my revised text about the Ellis cage, but it is an important part of the shark-proof cage story in Australia. My image of Jim Ellis with the cage was removed from Wikimedia Commons due to copyright issues so I will try to find a new one. I am doing some research and writing on Australia's abalone-diving industry, to explain my edits to this page. TVR2 (talk) 03:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no informed opinion on renaming/split of article, hopefully other editors have. I'll try WP:APPNOTEing in a couple of places, it can't hurt. There is a specific semi-formal procedure that can be used, WP:RM, but it's to early for that I think. The article, re-named or not, is global in scope (I have no idea what proportion of the world's shark cage diving takes place in Australia), and content on the Ellis-cage needs to fit WP:PROPORTION, apart from WP:NOTHOWTO, MOS:JARGON etc. I note also that the Ellis-cage is the only self-propelled shark cage this WP-article knows about, is that good enough? It may be.
 * The rule of thumb on adding images to WP/Commons is that anything you find online (and often offline) is under the wrong license and can't be used. There are basically 2 ways for "us" to "get" a pic of a living person: The person takes a selfie, WP:REGISTER, and uploads it (WP:FUW). OR, someone else takes a picture of them, WP:REGISTER, and uploads it. Some .gov websites like publish their stuff under usable licenses, and those pics we can use. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)