Talk:Shashamane

In General
Something being sourced or documented is never enough reason to include it. Just because a few western tourists make a fuss about not liking the place is totally irrelevant to this article, let alone having prominent space in the opening section. This doesnt happen in any other place articcler I know and according to our POV policy it has no place in this one either, SqueakBox 00:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * First, you obviously misunderstand the concept of "NPOV". It does not mean that one should write in a neutral tone about a subject, avoiding praise or criticism; it means that an article should present all sides in a dispute over an issue. Now it would be NPOV were the passage in question to say, "Shashamane is a city that is very unfriendly to tourists." However, I took care to phrase this as an opinion, & as one not every visitor might have. I actually softened what Briggs wrote: "Shashemene is the one town in Ethiopia that receives consistently negative reports from travellers." Or I could have added: "It is the archetypical junction town: a mushrooming amorphous clutter of ugly buildings and leering, loutish youths with a population that has reputedly risen by more than 2,000% in the last decade or so."


 * Second, it is remarkable that any tourbook would have anything negative about a given locale it lists beyond a lack of things to see or the poor quality of lodgings. The usual practice is either to omit all mention of the given place, or to damn it with faint praise. It is even more so in a travelguide that whose audience -- experienced & adventurous travellers -- expect to encounter some difficulties; a few unpleasant locals is par for the course. Having read this book completely several times, I have found only two other cities where Briggs provides similar warnings. One is Addis Ababa, where he warns the reader about pick-pockets and confidence scams -- but balances this by not only pointing out that "the chancers" who hang out in certain parts of town are "relatively harmless", & that there is an absence of violent crime found in other African cities. The other is Jijiga, where he warns about landmines in the nearby Karamara Mountains, hostilities between Somali factions, & the possible dangers of bandits -- yet again he balances this with the comment that tourists are not at greater risk than the locals, who go about "without apparent concern". He doesn't even bother to write anything about the Afar people, who have a reputation for being murderously hostile to strangers. In the case of Shashamane, however, Briggs comes closer here than anywhere else in his handbook to saying that tourists should stay away from this place. The author's job in a travelguide is to encourage travel; when he sends up a red flag about a city like Shashamane, it's noteworthy & needs to be mentioned.


 * Third, the passage is not in the opening section. The opening section of an article is the first few paragraphs, unless the article is very long & divided into several sections. Even now, this article falls into a general section about the city, and a special section about its Rastafarian connections. I had placed the passage you object to into the general section. Would you rather have me add it to the Rastafarian section? Briggs also has some choice words about how the Rastafarian commune is just as hostile to casual visitors as Shashamane.


 * Lastly, I have to wonder if your objection to this passage is not an attempt to white-wash a very serious issue about Shashamane. All countries have their cities with problems; but to repeat what I wrote above, it is noteworthy when a travelguide comes this close to telling experienced travellers to avoid this town entirely. -- llywrch 18:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well firstly I dont consider a tour guide to be a real source and I do understand pov, this should at most go in only if there are other sources pointing out the positive aspects of the place. Indeed all countries have cities with problems, and tour guides perhaps have a duty to point this out, but if you check we at wikipedia dont label every or even any place with problems as such, especially not using crude terms such as "fuck off". It reads to me like some spoilt brat westerner complaining, SqueakBox 18:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So describing Shashamane as "the archetypical junction town: a mushrooming amorphous clutter of ugly buildings and leering, loutish youths with a population that has reputedly risen by more than 2,000% in the last decade or so" -- this is acceptible to you? -- llywrch 21:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Those stats arent certain, I am only happy with the archetypical junction town, that is a neutral description which actually gives me a better idea of the place, SqueakBox 21:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think you understand the point of my question. Are there any grounds that you would accept negative information about Shashamane? For example, if it came from the Ethiopian government? Or a respected source like Richard Pankhurst? -- llywrch 21:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, if it were (a) from notable sources, (b) balanced by positive views, and (c) relevant to the article, SqueakBox 22:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * For my part, I would accept negative information about Shashemene that came from somebody who actually lived there in the city, as opposed to grousing from an outsider source that did not. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Codex, are you referring to Philip Briggs by "an outsider"? -- llywrch 19:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm actually not sure who he is, but I meant anyone in general who has not lived there. Has he? No doubt, you will tell me what his qualifications are to opine on the character of this town. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What year is his travel guide? I spent time there in 1992, and it was already a big place, maybe 80,000.  If, as he suggests, it has risen by "2,000%" just in the last decade, then it would by now be bigger than Addis Ababa.  Sounds like suspicious info to me. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think maybe it's better to leave out what's left of the sentence, as it now simply reads "It has been described as the archetypical junction town." Briggs' phrase "archetypal junction town" isn't particularly meaningful, since junctions tend to occur in towns, but I think it becomes less useful without Briggs' (albeit negative) qualifiers. Brigg's description might be better suited for Wikitravel although I might feel differently if this article were longer. As for the timeliness of the info, I have an earlier edition of this same travel guide from 1995 or so, and it has the same description regarding "loutish youth" etc. (IIRC he holds Dire Dawa in lower esteem than Shashamane.)  I believe the actual content  (i.e. when Briggs would have been making his visits) dates from shortly after the fall of the Derg, perhaps about the same time as Codex's own visit. But FWIW I have cited the Briggs book as a source (mainly for locations, distances etc.) elsewhere in Wikipedia, and don't think it should be dismissed out-of-hand. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
This article was vandalised 7 months ago here and not fixed till today. Very poor. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 15:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Date format
It is most unusual for dates to have period "." in the number:
 * not 13.th December
 * yes 13th December Tabletop (talk) 10:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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The Promised Land section needs to be rewritten
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shiree borara shashamane map
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