Talk:Shawarma/Archive 1

Origin of term Shawarma
Why do we need the Urdu spelling ? - when "This article is about the Arab snack" not Pakistani food, and the spelling is exactly the same in Arabic and Urdu. It comes from the turkish term 'çevirme' (read Chevirme which means Turning something) In turkish there are 2 terms: dönmek which means 'Turn itself' çevirmek (read 'Chevirmek' which means 'Turn something')

'mek' is the infinitif form: - if you write 'er' instead of the infinitif form you obtain the 'ing' form of the verb=> döner which means 'Turning itself' - if you delete the 'k' of the infinitf form, you obtain the noune related to the verb=> çevirme

In the past century, the skrew did not turn itself, so someone was turning it so Turks called it 'çevirme': but nowadays, it turns itself so Turks called it 'döner' whereas arabics continued using the old turkish term. Arabics do not not have 'V' sound, so they replace it by 'w' So 'Chevirme' became 'Chawarma' unsigned comment by User:82.231.203.175

Image
Image:Shawarma.jpg was deleted as unsourced. Anyone have a picture handy? --Mgreenbe 11:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Increasing diversity - current developments
Fish shawarma is now available in quite a few places in Damascus, and one or two have now started offering sujuq (sausage) shawarma as well. Meanwhile, apparently as a result of bird flu, chicken shawarma is far less popular than before, and many places that used only have chicken (in Syria, most places that only had one kind of shawarma had chicken) are now offering lamb instead or both. One largeish restaurant that used have lamb and chicken now also has fish and sausage. Fish shawarma is quite nice, actually. Haven't tried the sausage yet. Palmiro | Talk 14:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: sausage shawarma is really tasty. Palmiro | Talk 13:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * My envy is boundless. What does sausage consist of under halal?  Under kashrut, it tends to be beef with synthetic skin; proper kishkas are less popular. --Mgreenbe 14:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Spicy beef, normally. It's seen as an Armenian speciality here, but although the Armenians are Christians they've enough of an eye to the main chance to ensure the general marketability of their sausages. Not sure about the skin. Palmiro | Talk 14:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just looked at the Kishka article. It has possibly the most bizarre, even surreal, table of contents of any Wikipedia article. Incidentally, an entirely unrelated kishke is a sort of meze dish here consisting of, if I remember right, labne, labne-soaked ka'k, walnuts and sometimes mint or other herbs, and is most delicious. Palmiro | Talk 14:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Is a Schwarma the same as this?
I was looking at the Schwarma article and it looks like it's about the same thing as a Shawarma, just an alternate spelling. Is that true, or are there any real differences? If not, then it might be useful to just merge that article into this one and put a redirect in place of Schwarma. -- E lkman - (talk) 14:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, they should be merged. Palmiro | Talk 11:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that :) --Nina 19:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hurray! ;) Palmiro | Talk 22:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I made a redirect page. Is Schwarma just a typo missing an A or is it an alternative spelling? --Nina 07:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's an alternative transliteration into English. So is shwarma. There are lots of Arabic words that appear in quite a few different shapes in English, as there are different translation systems and then sometimes people try to transliterate the literary Arabic form and sometimes they try to transliterate the pronunciation of some particular colloquial dialect. This is always a problem. Palmiro | Talk 14:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Strongly disagree After I tasted a many of different Schawarma Gyros... and all the other similare looking - but very different tasting - I strongly disagree on merging the articles together. In addition to all the reasons given above, the taste is very different between the Shawarma as you find it in Lebanon (or Lebanese restaurants) (and other middle eastern countries (Syria, Palestine, Jordan..) and what you find in Greece, Turkie and North Africa.

National Food
"Along with Falafel, Shawarma is considered the National Food of Israel." Is this really worth saying? I don't think this needs to be said.

Shwarma, gyro, and döner kebab are really the same food under different names, with regional/national variants. Shouldn't these three pages be unified?--Macrakis 04:17, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * whether unified or not, the article should be completely shrunk down a LOT. It's ridiculously detailed, and then the part with all the different national flags? not encylcopedic at all. It's a cheap food, and to earn an extra buck vendors cut corners like crazy, and it is completely suboptimal to cook meat on a toaster and serve it when you walk up rather than when it is ready.

Schawarma is not the same as a Döner Kebab in London. Döner Kebab’s are ubiquitous while the Schawarma is quite rare, mainly been found in the Edgware Road which is famous as an Arab district. The main difference, with Lamb as the meat, is that the Schawarma is made with layers of meat while the Döner is made of minced meat. 89.104.49.89 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Döner Kebab, Shawarma and Souvlaki (especially) are different. They are NOT the same. The meat is different, the bread is different. Why not merge this article with the sandwich article also if this is the logic to be applied? The different names also stir up national and ethnic pride - which name will you use for this new article? --Commking 7 December 2005

BTW, in Russia shaverma/shaurma is meat and some vegetables rolled into flat dough (lavash). It's quite popular street food, shaverma stands are plentiful. Grue 10:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I love chicken schawarma's. There is a restaurant in Dublin which claims to have the world's best schawarma. It's an unsubstantiated claim, but I'm inclined to agree.

"Shwarma, gyro, and döner kebab are really the same food under different names." No they aren't. They don't taste at all the same. The only thing they have in common is cooking on a spit and superficial resemblance when assembled.

A misplaced comment about "Shawarma King" in Kalamazoo, MI
This edit is a little step towards factual accuracy but in its current form it belongs here and not in the article. The anonymous submitter who has mentioned Shawarma King is most likely unreachable now. --saimhe 11:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Shawarma King is a restaurant in Ottawa. Perhaps this was made to reference this. --dowboy98 3:11pm, 09 June 2007 (EST)

Listing of particular well-known Shawarma Places
Who is in favor of removing the specific names of Shawarma restaurants on this article. I think it should be mentioned.
 * eternalsleeper


 * In this edit, I recently removed references to a number of shawarma restaurants in various places. Clearly, WP will never be a complete directory of shawarma restaurants, and indeed Wikipedia policy says explicitly that Wikipedia is not a directory. It is possible that some of the listed shawarma restaurants are notable in some way, but there is not even a claim of notability consistent with Wikipedia policy. That Ahmed's is a favorite shawarma restaurant at State U. in Anytown, USA is simply not encyclopedic information, at least in the shawarma article.  Should we also have a list of all French restaurants in Anytown in the French cuisine article, a list of all pizza restaurants in Anytown in the pizza article, etc.?  Common sense and Wikipedia policy says that this information doesn't belong here. --Macrakis 00:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes that make sense not mentining specific restaurants by name. It could be the restaurant operators who are posting their own information. But having lived in Ottawa, Montreal and spent a great deal of time in Toronto, the statements are accurate. However, i do not think you should remove something such as "Amirs is the largest Shawarma chain in Montreal." As one shouldn't remove "Mcdonalds is the largest hamburger chain in the world." eternalsleeper


 * When Amir's becomes the largest shawarma chain in the world, or even in Canada, it might be notable enough to rate a special mention in the shawarma article. However, until then, I don't see the rationale. Should the pizza article mention the largest pizza chain in each metropolitan area of the world? --Macrakis 17:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think they should be removed. It's advertising and clutters up the page. 171.66.237.20 23:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do we even need a section describing all the places in the world where you can get shawarma? It isn't exactly a rare delicacy.. can we just assume that you can get it in most places? Rhobite 01:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think this all started when people noticed that the shawarma as described in the article was different from the shawarma with which they were familiar. There are certainly differences, some regional, some ethnic, some individual, and people seem to be very attached to them. I certainly agree we should get rid of the micro-description of shawarma variants and just summarize them.

There are also differences between shawarma, doner kebab, and gyros, but they are clearly the same food with variations. Nonetheless, from each ethnic community, there are loud defenders of the status quo of one article per name. Isn't it amusing how this article often says things like "in MyCity, shawarma is called donair/kebab/gyro".... Sigh. --Macrakis 16:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The "Around the world" section is lame and should be deleted. It's totally unencyclopedic and there's a lot of vague advertising. 24.6.86.209 01:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are almost no sources for the "Around the world" section so most of the info is unverifiable. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The shawarma shop in the "University District in Seattle" must be Alladin's Gyro-cery, which has been a local institution for at least 22 years. Note that even though it's an Arabic shop the sandwich is still called a gyros. However, I wouldn't call it notable for Wikipedia. There are now several shawarma/gyros/kebab restaurants in both the University District and Capitol Hill. In fact, the number increased significantly over the past year. Is that happening elsewhere in the US too? --Sluggoster 08:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Greek Gyros:

I was looking for the defition of shawarma, and I came up with a comparison with the Greek Gyros which as is it described it is made with ground meat. I just came from Greece, and NEVER was I served a REAL gyros with ground meat. It contains meat fillets in Greece too.

Thanks Eleni —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.171.219 (talk) 16:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Shoarma in the Netherlands
The remark about snackbars serving shoarma is incorrect. I was born & raised in the Netherlands and still live there, and have yet to come across a snackbar that sells shoarma. There are tons of special shoarma restaurants that quite resemble a snackbar (there isn't any other kind of shoarma restaurant that I'm aware of), maybe that's the source of the confusion.

It might very well be that there are snackbars that serve shoarma, but if they exist they would probably be considered uncommon enough that it should not be mentioned here. Drwilco 00:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

To-the-point discussion
Against, because the differences between the three dishes are big enough to have three articles. --Nina 14:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you please explain what the general differences are? We haven't been able to find globally distinguishing characteristics over the course of more than a month. --Mgreenbe 15:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The dishes are similar, but they use different meats (chicken, pork an beef/ calf) and different spices. The vegetables and sauces are different as well. Just because the meat is made on a Rotisserie doesn't make them taste the same. They're prevalent in different countries with different cultures. --Nina 23:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you cite a general rule?  The only I can think of is that gyros can be pork, but the others are generally not.  This singular difference warrants a mention, but not necessarily different articles. --Mgreenbe 01:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Döner is beef, gyros is pork, shawarma is chicken. If you want to point out the similarities, extend the article about rotisserie. Up to now, I haven't even read a reasonable lemma to merge these three articles. --Nina 10:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you read this article? Shawarma can be lamb, beef, chicken, sausage, fish or even turkey. Palmiro | Talk 14:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem I have is that for every assignation like that, there seems to be another. In the US, gyros is beef or lamb &mdash; rarely pork (usually called souvlaki instead), never chicken.  In France gyros is usually beef, sometimes lamb; I never saw pork (but I'm sure it's there somewhere).  In Israel shawarma is often chicken, but some of the best of it is lamb.  I'm not sure that I'd be able to readily tell the difference between French gyros and Israeli lamb shawarma.  The pictures on doner kebab all could be shawarma here in Israel; the sliced UK portion could easily be gyros in the States.  The etymology has already been discussed, and the dishes seem to have a common origin.
 * The merged articles would first describe the common traits: rotating meat on a stick, the knife used to cut it, and the frequent use of pocket bread. Then there would be a brief etymology section, followed by a country-by-country breakdown (a la street food) describing what each word means in each country.  I think this is the only way to get a reasonably sized, informative article out of this topic.  This kind of thorough detail would allow the unified article to easily reach featured status; as it stands, none of these three have much potential. --Mgreenbe 12:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The original ingredients should be described in each article, and the exceptions or variations that appear in different countries should be mentioned. The fact that there are so many variations can rather be interpreted as a reason for keeping three articles, because otherwise it would be too confusing. And there is still no suggestion for a name of the merged article... --Nina 13:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I would suggest the name Döner kebab, gyros, and shawarma; naturally, the three would all redirect to that. Unified treatment allows:
 * a single history and etymology section,
 * the reader to evaluate what makes each country's version different, rather than the misleading "similar foods" section,
 * a much clearer presentation for countries with name ambiguities, such as Australia or Germany, and
 * us to manage a single page, rather than three. --Mgreenbe 14:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree wholeheartedly with this rationale, though I think the page could equally just be merged to Döner kebab as that appears to be the original name as well as the one most widely used in the country of origin. But if the longer one is better for dealing with patriotic sensibilities, so be it. Palmiro | Talk 14:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And why not write the etymology and single history to the article rotisserie? Sorry, but if you want to merge these three dishes you have to merge the lahmacun and pizza-articles as well. --Nina 22:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * But that's readily differentiable from pizza. But here's an idea: given a name we can all agree on, why not use a pizza-style format?  An overall description, and then a list of links to specific articles?  I wouldn't be against using rotisserie, but I would certainly prefer something more specific.  By-the-by, I've added a link to lahmacun at pizza under a heading "similar dishes".  And pide really needs its own article...volunteers? --Mgreenbe 22:29, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, don't forget merging Tarte flambée with pizza as well ;o) --Nina 22:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I would be interested to see the history, but the analogy &mdash; while better than lo mein vs. spaghetti &mdash; seems pretty weak. There are definitive demarcations between the Alsacian tarte and pizza.  (Sounds good...if only I could get a real oven, crème fraîche, and bacon!)  But I will dutifully add it to pizza's listings. :) --Mgreenbe 23:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I managed to buy, not just ham, but Danish ham the other day. I felt like a real rebel! Palmiro | Talk 20:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just recognized the whole mess: Category:Pizza. So, merging hawaiian pizza, California-style pizza, Stuffed crust pizza, St. Louis-style pizza - just to name a few- would have my strong support. But shawarma/döner/gyros are far too different. --Nina 23:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * But the sorts of pizza you name are all clearly different sorts of pizza. Whereas doner kebab, shawarma and gyros are, as far as anyone can tell, the Turkish, Arabic and Greek names respectively for the same thing, which exists in various forms none of which appear to be particularly closely associated with any one name. Palmiro | Talk 17:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

And why can't you see them as different sorts of the same thing as well? With even completetly different names? Prevalent in different countries? --Nina 20:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If anyone could show that the different names actually do correspond to different kinds of grilled meat, or even different ways of serving it, I would be convinced. But that doesn;t appear to be possible. I strongly suspect that if you plonked a Palestinian down in front of a doner kebab shop in Ankara or a gyros shop in Thessaloniki, pointed at the meat being grilled, and said "shu haad"? he or she would say "shawarma". And ditto for a Turk in Jerusalem or a Greek in Damascus. Palmiro | Talk 12:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * But then they would taste it and change they're minds. If you taste the three things, they are completely different. True, they look similar and are made similarly, but they are undoubtably very different. &mdash; D a  niel  (‽) 13:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, the taste is quite different. Shoarma has a different set of spices than Gyros, as far as I've tasted it, over the world. And I've had plenty of Gyros-pita in Greece that wasn't made of ground meat. Actually the only of the three under discussion here that I've seen with ground meat is Doner. In the Netherlands Shoarma is usually served with pita, Gyros is usually part of a larger dish, and Doner is usually served more like a burrito, with a much larger and flatter bread that is wrapped around. Drwilco 01:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I Say This

Gyro meat is made with lamb. Donair's are made with Beef. Gyro sauce is made with yogurt.

Donair sauce is made with evaporated milk. Not to mention the spices, toppings, bread and so on

are NOT the same.

Proposed merge

 * Disagree. --- bkeatsJanuary 18, 2008 (UTC)

The dish Shawarma is very different in fact from Doner Kebab. They look the same but their recipe is very different. Shawarma is made from slices of the meat stacked up, then roasted and cut. Doner by contrast is ground meat (burger meat or if you like Keema) which is put on a similar spit. Because in doner the meat has already been ground, the juices from the meat don't come out the same way they do in ready meat. When 'ready', unground meat is cooked on a spit it looks the same but tastes quite different. In this way doner is fairly similar to Gyro, but tastes completly different due to the way the meat is ground and readied for the spit. The sauces used are also very different. In the UK I understand that there is a major supplier of the ground beef for Doner on a spit for the many outlets in that country. The taste of doner is fairly standardised, but of shewarma is fluctuates a lot. Some of the worst shewarma I have tasted has been in Canada as well as at shops run by Indian/Pakistanis in Dubai. Some of the best shewarma has been in Lebanon, Saudi and shops run by Near East Arabs in London. The best Doner has been in Turkey followed by London. If we have an an article on "Meat cooked on a rotating stick" as suggested below, then we can introduce Sajji from the Baluch in Iran, Afghanistan, Central Asia and Pakistan and a variety of asado dishes found in Latin America. I had heard that the desert lizard of Saudi is roasted on a spit as well. On the other hand perhaps a better title would be "Middle Eastern meats cooked on a rotating stick". That would perhaps be more appropriate.Bkeats (talk) 13:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

There should be a main article on the Doner page, with short articles on the other two pages. In other words, all the common material should be one page instead of repeated three times. 82.36.228.136 12:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I support the proposed merge in principle, but I would suggest that we need to:
 * agree where the merged article should reside
 * once agreement has been reached on merging and on where to merge to, develop the text of the merged article beforehand, perhaps on a user subpage. Palmiro | Talk 10:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. --Macrakis 14:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --Mgreenbe 17:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I would like to see a single article, perhaps "Meat cooked on a rotating stick". The three articles are all so similar, particularly in the introductory paragraph.  I think it's important to stress that all three of these foods come from the same part of the world, consist of approximately the same things, and are generally served in the same way.  In a country-by-country breakdown, variations can be spelled out: the changes made to doner in the UK and germany, historical doner in Turkey (L-shaped what?), the changes made to shawarma throught the ME, and the horrible things the US does to food in general.  But the presence of three different articles makes it seem like the three are different in more than name.  Right now it's like having different articles for "soda", "pop", and "soft drink" because the words are used in different places with slight variation in meaning.  --Mgreenbe 09:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Against. --Commking 7 December 2005
 * Could you please explain your rationale? Please note that merging the articles does not imply that the food items are identical world-wide.  But then, even articles with the same name aren't identical world-wide... Describing the variation would be part of the merged article. --Macrakis 04:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak Against. +MATIA &#9742; 16:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * comment: There are three articles, about three similar but different things (or should I say dishes). The articles are big enough to justify being splitted, and I'm afraid that the suggested merge would cause more trouble in the future. The refferences in the see also section, with a more detailed common intro in the three articles (and then each article would have details about the specific variation) seems a better idea to me. +MATIA &#9742; 16:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Names and differences: There is no consistent distinction among these dishes by name. Some places in the US make "gyros" with sliced meat, some with ground meat.  Same thing for "shwarma" and "doner". As far as I can tell, in the US, the name used has more to do with the national background of the seller than the nature of the dish.
 * Same concept: It really is the same concept, just as "sausage" should not have separate articles under "wurst", "saucisson", "salumi", etc. although specific kinds like, say, "mortadella", "bratwurst", and "blood sausage" (boudin noir) might have additional information.
 * Size: I don't see that size justifies splitting. None of the articles is very large.
 * Trouble: Chauvinist editors may cause "trouble" in the future, but Wikipedia policy explicitly disapproves of content forking and POV forking.
 * Name The most natural name seems to be "d�ner kebab", since it is originally a Turkish dish.  It is also one of the names in Greek (?????? /doner/ is even listed in the Babiniotis dictionary as a synonym of ?????).  Of course, all the other names should redirect to it. --Macrakis 18:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't compare the situation in the states, but the original recipies for "shwarma", "gyros" and "doner". For example, I know gyros is sliced pork meat, what about shwarma and doner? +MATIA &#9742; 19:05, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * We should consider the situation world-wide, including of course the situation in Turkey, Greece, and the Middle East, but also in Germany, England, the U.S., etc. As far as I know, both ?????? (doner) and ????? (gyros) in Greece are made with pork, and of course in Muslim and Jewish contexts, they are never made with pork.  But then, they can be made with chicken etc. as well.  All these variations are worth mentioning. --Macrakis 20:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * See also: Coca-Cola and Pepsi. In my opinion coca cola and pepsi are 99% (if not 100%) the same, yet they even have sub-articles for each diet, light, vanilla, etc. +MATIA &#9742; 19:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * There is actually a Cola article which talks about the common issues. The Coca-cola article is mostly about the business history of Coca-cola, not about the beverage.  If at some point someone writes 5 pages of meaty (!) material about (say) the social and gastronomic history of gyros in Thessaloniki, that might deserve its own WP page, just as there is already a page on a Canadian fast-food chain, the King of Donair. That doesn't reduce the need for a single page about the core concept, though. --Macrakis 20:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm against the merging of the three. They are not the same, but very similiar dishes. This is robbing the Turkish, the Arabs, and the Greeks of their individuality. I completely disagree with the lumping of "shawarma", "gyro" and "d�ner kebab" into one category. posted by User:Obscure41 on December 11 15:58
 * Thank you for your input. In the future, please don't remove notices that indicate an ongoing discussion &mdash; it makes it significantly more difficult to assume good faith; it is also helpful if you sign your posts by typing ~ at the end.
 * To the point: in what way would these cultures be robbed of their individuality? While it is true the article would have a single name of the three, the others would redirect to it.  The differences of each dish would be described.  Could you please explain what is lost? --Mgreenbe 14:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I am strongly for this. Through my travels, I have found as much variation between Doners than between Doners, Gyros, Shwarmas, etc. For example, here in Bulgaria, they roll up fries with the meat and salad! I think you'll have to agree that the "standard deviation" of the definition for any one of these dishes is about the same as that of the whole range. Froese 13:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak agreed. After reading this talk section, I was going to strongly agree. I've eaten gyros/d�ners in Germany, Turkey, Greece, several other European countries with Turkish immigrants, and also at a little Turkish caf� here in Anchorage, and (as I was surprised to discover in my travels) they really are the same thing. Like Froese said, they're different even from restaurant to restaurant even within one country. The biggest difficulty would be finding a better title than "Meat cooked on a rotating stick" (especially since many gyros-makers here in the U.S. grill individually-separated pieces of lamb, rather than on the more typical vertical spit). However, after perusing the actual articles themselves (of which I had only read the first couple paragraphs each), my support weakened. There's sufficient difference between the articles, especially in worldwide usage of both the food and the terms (i.e. gyros in the U.S., "Donairs" in Nova Scotia) that separate articles may be warranted. If we can figure out a way to effectively combine them without getting everyone's trains of thought confused, I'll be for merging them.cluth 02:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. In Denmark Shawarma and Kebab are considered the same. I only find it confusing to have to look at three pages. Look at the hotdog page, it has descriptions of regional varieties. The same ought to be possible with Kebab/shwarma/gyros. Vivitar

IE would you put cheeseburger on the sandwich page? Or put kebab on the hot-dog page? (Unsigned edit by 68.166.127.146) Anonymous votes don't count.
 * Those things that are common to or relevant to foods in general belong on the food page; the cheeseburger page does not need to repeat that cheeseburgers are eaten and digested, for example. How exactly to divide up the space of articles is not an exact science, of course.  If you have substantive comments on why these three foods in particular shouldn't be merged, please write them below, preferably with a login so your vote can be counted.  Thanks. --Macrakis 21:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Strong against. We're talking about three (or possibly four) different items: Shwarma, gyros, (tacos al pastor) and doner kebab. Similar items prepared in a similar manner, with some overlap in the names given them by vendors due to these similarities. However, as the articles demonstrate, there is enough difference between each of the dishes to warrant separate entries that reference one another. In addition, a title like "Meat cooked on a vertical rotisserie" is overly clumsy. (If a fitting title is found I'll change my vote to weak agree.)--Wasabe3543 09:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe you are mistaken about the history. It is not that the foods were developed independently and then the names came to overlap by accident.  As far as I can tell, Doner kebab was the original version, developed somewhere in Turkey.  It spread both west (to Greece) and east (to Lebanon).  In Greece, in fact, it used to be called "doner" and the name "gyros" (a translation of 'doner') came later.  The Arabic name is also apparently of Turkish origin (�evirme), meaning roughly the same thing ('turned' as opposed to 'turning').  I don't know anything about tacos al pastor.  Over time, there have been many variants of sauces, serving styles, etc., just as some people eat hot dogs with relish and mustard, others with ketchup, and others with fried onions.  Some hot dogs are made of pork, some of pork and beef, some of turkey, etc.  Sometimes hot dogs are called frankfurters or wieners.  Would you argue that there should be a "wiener" article about pork-based hotdog-type sausage with fried onions, a "frankfurter" article about beef-based hot dogs with mustard and relish, and a "hot dog" article about chicken-based hot dogs with ketchup???  These may even correspond to regional preferences.... --Macrakis 16:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't argue that way because it doesn't make sense. A frankfurter is a type of sausage that is a culinary specialty of Frankfurt am Main. A wiener, or more correctly wienerwurst, is a very similar sausage from vienna. A hot dog uses a type of sausage similar to a frankfurter or wienerwurst. Therefore, a hot dog is called a frankfurter or wiener as a form of synecdoche. Toppings have nothing to do with it. Gyro, Shwarma, doner, etc. indicate a sandwich with shaved meat with specific (often similar) toppings. And there's still the problem of what to call the article should all four be merged together. My preference is to keep them separate and note the similarities/influences. --Wasabe3543 03:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree entirely that "toppings have nothing to do with it" for hot dogs. In fact, that was exactly my point.  The same thing holds for d�ner kebab, which is a name for the meat.  D�ner can be served on a dinner plate, or in a sandwich, just as frankfurter and wiener sausages can.  D�ner/gyros/shwarma by itself is not a sandwich, but a meat.  By synecdoche, as you say, they have come to also mean the sandwiches made with it.  As has been noted by other editors above, there is not at all a one-to-one relationship between the names and the garnishes.  In fact, as far as I can tell, the name depends only on the ethnicity of the vendor or local tradition.  Locally, there may be systematic differences, e.g. that d�ner is served with chopped salad and gyros is served with sliced tomatoes and tzatziki or whatever, but in some other city, it may be the other way around. --Macrakis 15:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well what about merging spaghetti with ramen? Same stuff, just different toppings.


 * Strongly against If you do not know the difference between Shawarma, donair, taco el pasor, and gyro, you have no reason to be editing this article. eternalsleeper

Macrakis, you seem to be the one mistaken about the history. While the original turkish doner kebab may have come first and influenced shwarma and gyros (as well as "german" doner kebab itself), the modern version of the doner kebab was only developed in the early 1970s in Germany. The doner kebab article says as much. Gyros developed around the same time in the US, based on the Greek version of the doner kebab. Multiple sources (eg, the OED, the Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink) support the gyro as a US creation. So gyros and european-style doner were developed around the same time, both being influenced both by the classic Turkish dish as well as the practice dating from the 60s of putting doner kebab in a pita (leading to early gyros also being called doner kebab). While the inspiration may be essentially the same, modern gyros and doner kebabs are the creations of (Turkish/Greek) immigrant communities in the early 1970s who were trying to suit local (German/US) tastes. The convergence in names and toppings/prep styles for the most part seems to have come afterward.--Wasabe3543 11:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you would like the articles to cover only the "modern" d�ner (by which I think you mean the d�ner sandwich in particular). But this is an encyclopedia, and it should cover all the versions.

There is a Turkish dish called d�ner kebab which has become very popular around the world, in various variants and under different names. In sit-down restaurants in Turkey and abroad, it is served on a plate, typically on top of a piece of pita and sometimes sauced with a yoghurt-based sauce. In take-out and street-food establishments, it is served in a pita sandwich with vegetables and sauce (what exactly those vegetables and sauce are varies). In Greece, the dish took the name gyros, presumably as a matter of linguistic purism. In Arabic-speaking countries, it is called by a different Turkish name for the dish, �evirme, spelled shawarma. The dish is attested from quite far back:
 * 1770: A d�ner kebab spit figures in the inventory of a tavern in Bosnia (The Melting Pot: Balkan Food & Cookery, Maria Kaneva-Johnson)
 * 1938 "tchevir me kebab" s.v. kebab Larousse Gastronomique (1961 English translation of 1938 edition) "Place on an upright spit some thin slices of mutton, alternating with pieces of mutton fat. This spit turns itself in front of an upright grill. As the meat is cooked the pieces are slit lengthwise and taken off the spit one after the other.  This is served with yoghourt, pilaf of rice, etc."
 * 1959 "d�ner kebab" -- in Concise Oxford Turkish Dictionary, 1959 (s.v. kebab), see also �evirme (shwarma).
 * 1967 "???????" [doneri] ?.?. ?????????, ??????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????????? (Etymological dictionary of Modern Greek) (2nd edition)
 * 1998 doner given as a synonym for gyros in ?????? ??? ?????? ???????????. "????? ?? ????" (gyros with pita) given as one way of serving it

The claim that the d�ner sandwich was invented in Kreuzberg in the 1970's seems to come from the German Wikipedia, but I have not seen good evidence of it elsewhere. Similarly, the claim that immigrant communities invented the sandwich form seems unlikely. I remember clearly having souvlaki sandwiches exactly like this (onions, tomatoes, tzatziki) in Greece in the 1960's, and it hardly seems surprising that d�ner would be served the same way.

As for the difference between d�ner, gyros, and shwarma, I agree that there are many variations. However, as others have confirmed in the discussion above, there is no systematic correspondence between the variant and the name. As far as I can tell, it is a matter of which immigrant group arrived in a given area first and established the name (called gyros in New York, but d�ner in Germany), or naming it in one's own language (Greeks call it gyros, Turks call it d�ner). I would certainly be interested in better evidence all around! --Macrakis 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I am aware that there is also ersatz d�ner meat which is cooked on a griddle rather than shaved off a rotating vertical spit, just as there are ersatz frankfurters made of chicken or tofu. That doesn't change the central definition.... --Macrakis 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The doner article should cover all versions, which it currently does. Turkish guest workers in Germany in the 70s are quite commonly given as the source of the German doner sandwich. From The Week in Germany (May 31, 1996): The D�ner, a relative of the Greek gyro, is a pocket of Turkish bread filled with spicy grilled meat, salad and a yogurt sauce. Turkish �guest workers� introduced Germany to the D�ner, and since the early 1970s it has progressed from an exotic ethnic specialty to a fast food staple. This article attributes the doner sandwich to Turkish immigrants, using as its source a case study by Ayse S. �aglar, "Mc Kebap: D�ner Kebap and the Social Positioning Struggle of German Turks," from Changing Food Habits: Case Studies from Africa, South America and Europe as well as Eberhard Seidel-Pielen's Aufgespie�t: Wie der D�ner �ber die Deutschen kam. The latter publication is listed as the reference work for the German doner article.--Wasabe3543 05:09, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the references. I somehow overlooked the ref in the de.wikipedia article.  I agree entirely with you that the doner article should cover all versions, as it currently does.  I reviewing the shwarma and gyros pages, my impression is that they are mostly duplicates of the doner kebab page, with some additional information about variants.  So I would think that merging all three into doner kebab would be the right solution.  I still don't understand why you think that is a bad idea. --Macrakis 16:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Shwarma is too disimilar to be merged. Shwarma mostly refers to marinated chicken, the other two traditionally to seasoned goat or beef. So not only is the meat different but how its prepared. I might agree that in most circumstances donair and gyros are similar enought to warrant discussions of a merger, I would think it more accrute to keep them seperate. Although Gyros and Donair meat are similar in make-up they are not the same. Futher, the topings are also traditionally different, gyros with tadziki, donair with garlic sauce. So in summary, all three are the same in that they are meat served in a pita originating from the eastern mediterranean. That's it. To me, they are about as similar as hotdogs and hamburgers. (oh and Shisk Taouk is different from Shwarma, Montrealers know that). (unsigned comment by User:DSixy 2006-01-03 21:11:46)


 * This is in fact yet further evidence in favour of the merge, and yet another case of how the supposed differences between what some people think of as shawarma/doner/gyros are not at all consistent. The term "shawarma" is in general use, and in this form originates, in the the Arab world, and there it refers to any sort of meat grilled in this way: most commonly lamb, beef, veal, turkey or chicken, but also in unusual cases sausage (I've seen this in Beirut) and fish (seen this in a Damascus restaurant, or rather, I saw a sign advertising it). In the English-speaking world, the only place I'm familiar with is Dublin, and here "shawarma" is used to refer to either meat or chicken interchangeably. In Dublin, the difference between "shawarma" and "doner" seems to be one of whether the shop is run by Arabs or not. Palmiro | Talk 21:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree. I did a little "research" on the web and it seems that most people use the terms interchangably. It seems that doner is the original form and the others were derived from it. The article should be called Doner Kebab and the other terms redirected to it. I've seen other articles done like that.Anthopos 04:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Theoretically agree because "there is no systematic correspondence between the variant and the name" but good luck on a single title. It's true that the doner kebab form predominates in UK/Ireland but it is unknown in much of the US where gyro reigns. LuiKhuntek 08:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I am against it because I think that the ethnical aspect has so far been overlooked. We seem to agree that these recipes are similar albeit not identical even within one country. So, why not leave each group its own "meat on the stick"? --Hjslaw 15:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it leaves us with three different articles about the same thing. Palmiro | Talk 16:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It boggles my mind that someone suggested that this article be merged with Gyros. They are completly different foods! Gyros is greasy and Americanized, Shawarma is dryer and very Middle Eastern. Let's merge hot dogs and bratrwurst, why don't we, they are both kind of similar!


 * I'm against merging these articles, because they are three different foods. Rhobite 00:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Against: I too feel that they are too different to merge. Although some restaurants dilute the names by using different names for the same thing or the same name for different things, they really are different foods. Just because a certain Mexican restaurant might use the same meat in both it tacos and enchiladas, doesn't make them the same food.
 * This is rather frustrating. Lots of people seem to oppose the proposed merge on the grounds that the articles are about different foodstuffs, but nobody seems able to explain what the supposed differences are. Palmiro | Talk 00:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I consider those votes essentially unjustified. No one has come up with a convincing argument.  I think there are two possible courses: RfC and action.  Anything to stop the inertia.  --Mgreenbe 00:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You think we should discount votes because you don't like the rationale? Come on. For your next act, maybe you should try merging Lo mein with Spaghetti. Rhobite 03:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Please be civil and assume good faith; I, like you, want the best for these articles. I, like you, acknowledge that these foods are national treasures.  I would discount votes not because of my opinion, but because of insufficient evidence.  The pro-merge argument is that there is no fundamental difference and that a combined article would present the information more clearly.  Any vote against merging should provide one; as Palmiro noted above, no one has done so. --Mgreenbe 15:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Against. I can't comment on döner kebab (though from the article, it does appear quite similar to shawarma), but having eaten my share of shawarma and gyros, I'd say they are definitely different things. Shawarma uses a thin lebanese bread; gyros uses a thicker, softer pita. The texture of the meat is different -- shawarma meat is slightly crispy. The sauces and other fillings are different, too -- I've never encountered french fries or tahini in gyros. Nath 06:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * While this is certainly true where you have been, in Israel shawarma is served in thick, fluffy pita (usually). Here they serve it crispy and not.  I've seen tahini in gyros (in the States).  Can you cite a global distinguishing factor? --Mgreenbe 09:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In both Syria and Lebanon, two types of bread are available for shawarma (and for falafel). One is called, in Syria anyway, khubz siyahi (tourist bread), and is essentially pita, though the individual breads are at least 20cm in diameter while a lot of pitas I have seen in other countries are much smaller. The other is called khubz 3arabi (Arab bread) in both countries, and is much thinner, composed of one layer rather than the two of pita/siyahi bread, and slightly bubbly and stretchy in texture. But whichever sort of bread you eat it on, or even if you just buy a kilo of the grilled meat and take it away and gobble it at home, it's still called shawarma. Palmiro | Talk 12:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Strongly against I won't comment on gyros, because I have never visited Greece and therefore cannot be sure of what it is really like. The only thing I can say is that, in France, people call "sandwich grec" what I believe is döner kebab (shawarmas are harder to find and are not as famous, but are sold under the name of shawarma).

What is certain is that döner and shawarma ARE different. The bread is not the same (arabic flat bread for shawarmas, pita bread for döners), the sauces differ (hummos or tahine for shawarmas, spicy sauce or white sauce for döners). Most important, the meats don't have the same taste, surely because they are not prepared in the same way (I don't know the recipes, so I can't be more precise, sorry).

Of course, sometimes you might buy a sandwich looking and tasting like a döner under the name shawarma (and vice versa). This simply means that the recipe has been adapted to local tastes, or that the product has been sold under the wrong name, just to please the customer (yes...that's marketing). Still, having eaten döner in Turkey and shawarma in arabic countries, I can tell you that the two are different.

Therefore the absence of a "global distinguishing factor", as stressed by Mgreenbe, does not seem relevant: although the recipe might have been changed locally (to please tourists or local consumers), the dishes were (and still are) different originally. The names we can find in other countries are mostly the result of history: Germans will talk of döner because of the important turkish immigration there, French of "sandwich grec" for another reason and so on. As a result it was easier for newcomers to sell their national dish under an unaccurate name. The fact that people might mistake one for the other is precisely why there should be distinct articles: an encyclopaedia has a duty to help us do away with our mistakes. Sami E. K. 23:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And how will we determine what the "authentic" döner and shawarma are? Is the gold standard of döner to be found at Orhan's stall in the Bursa market? Kemal's restaurant in Antalya? or maybe even Murat's stand in Berlin?  Is the gold standard of shawarma in Beirut? Baghdad? Alexandria? or maybe even Los Angeles? --Macrakis 16:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I've created a new category Category:Middle Eastern grilled meats and placed a number of articles in that category. Hope it helps to consolidate them for readers' convenience. --Aquarius Rising 21:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

strongly against, mainly for political reasons. merging shawarma, döners, and gyros opens a can of worms regarding at least greek and turkish national pride that there is just no reason to open. while there are a lot of simmilarities between these foods, i think each is just distinctive enough to support seperate articles. while i am neither greek nor turkish nor lebanese nor etc., i think that the cools of each nation and/or the emmigrants from that nation reinventing the dish have something to be proud of, and they deserve their own articles. i personally feel that i'd rather my national food have an artilce in itself, rather than being a footnote in someone else's article. just my 2¢. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.182.163.125 (talk) 19:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If this merge isn't going to happen...
Then remove the comment in the intro where it says in the intro that shawarma and donair are the same thing! Instead the article should clearly state that shawarma is part of a family of middle-eastern grilled meats, and state the differences. Kevlar67 (talk) 19:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Shawarmas in Canada
Do we really need a city-by-city break down? I can't help but notice a lack of information on many major cities. Would it not be easier to say "Shawarmas are more readily available in larger, more multi-cultural Canadian cities. Google Maps reports 91 shawarma restaurants in Ottawa.  Similar foods of Greek and Turkish origin are also widely available." Baribeau 21:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it very informative to have this information. The so '91' Shawarma places in Ottawa reflects this cities high Middle Eastern population.


 * I agree


 * I disagree. The fact that there is a high Middle Eastern population in Ottawa seems like it would more appropriately appear in an article on the demographics of Ottawa.  I'm aware of one or two Shawarma places in Kitchener-Waterloo... should that fact be recorded here as well as it reflects (one would assume) KW's much lower Middle Eastern population?  Is there a minimum number of Shawarma restaurants a city needs to have to have to qualify for inclusion on the list?  I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but if every country on the list got the same treatment Canada does this page would be ridiculously long, and I honestly don't see "number of Shawarma restaurants in Ottawa" as a vital bit of information (particularly since someone could do a Google search to get more up-to-date information anyway). JPrice 17:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The fact is there are a large number of Shawarma places in Vancouver too, it doesn't make sense to highlight those two cities and not mention Vancouver. Either we should move it to the larger cities have lots of shawarma places or we should list Vancouver as well. --Fenris23 (talk) 18:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the assertion that shawarma and donair are interchangeable terms across Canada. They are similar ideas, I suppose, but don't taste at all the same and in my experience, are always sold under the different names. For instance in Halifax donair shops prevail, but there are also shawarma outlets and nobody confuses the two. Shawarma can also be purchased "unassembled", if I can put it that way. At least that is the case in southwestern Ontario and that is the way I prefer to eat it rather than tightly wrapped in flat bread. Donar or donair is always sold wrapped as a sandwich. In any event the two don't taste the same at all and I don't agree that the terms are interchangeable. Tjaques

National Food of United Arab Emirates?
I am from the the UAE, and I have to say that while shawarma is extremely popualar here, it is NOT considered to be the national food. In fact, it doesn't make sense because shawarma is mainly from the northern arabic countries like Lebanon or Syria, which is quite different from the UAE. Something like Harees or Biryani or Machboos would make more sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.160.46 (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Can someone add an IPA pronunciation to the lead-in of the article? Politizer talk / contribs 15:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Kebab
It's also called Kebab in Australia, this is not mentioned jkjklj;) eee (talk) 07:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)¬¬å∂ƒ

Ratings
This article lacks references for much of the material. I think that the article should be downgraded to C or Start status until we can find references (assuming that the article is accurate). What is considered a reliable source with regards to dishes btw? --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 02:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

mistake
In first paragraph.

"Gyro, however, are typically made of pork meat" ???--70.240.147.110 (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As I have been trying to correct Algeria is clearly a mistake as Buenos Aires, Cordoba etc are cities in Argentina not Algeria. I'll have one last go at correcting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.203.210 (talk) 19:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No need, I reverted back to your version. Thanks for correcting it. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Gyro?
The introduction says shawarma is like gyro or donar, but they are nothing alike. This is like comparing pizza with tacos– they share bread, meat, and tomatoes, but they are not the same.

Schawarma uses entirely different spices and sauces than gyros (and donars), giving it a very different flavor. Does anyone object if we remove an inaccurate comparison?

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 22:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Not just my opinion: Schawarma 101

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Corrected the text and added mention it is halal.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 17:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Shawarma cevirme gyros and kabab are same Semitic dish with Semitic etymology
shawarma is from turkish tshevirme/devirme which cames from arabic/semitic dewwir=to make it to turn(same nostratic lislakh root as ie turn,giro....)

this root is not attested in proto turkic and has a semitic etymology and could be also a common lislakh root or maybe an indo-european borrowing from semitic.

kabab is from arabic/semitic kabab which means grilled meat(akkadian kababu....) --Humanbyrace (talk) 15:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Congratulations for your Semitocentrism, anti-Turkicism and ignorance. Chevir- is a Turkic word meaning "to turn, to twist" attested in proto-Turkic of course! (chebir/chebür in proto-Turkic) and it has nothing to do with the Arabic root dwr or dewwir. Besides, Turkish has 2 different "devir"s: one is Turkic verb devir- meaning "to owerthrow, to capsize, to subvert" (that is totally unrelated to chevir- which is also Turkic) and the other one is Arabic-derrived noun devir/devr meaning "turnover, era, period". [http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Calt%5Cturcet&first=1&off=&text_proto=%C4%8Debir&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_atu=&method_atu=substring&ic_atu=on&text_krh=&method_krh=substring&ic_krh=on&text_trk=&method_trk=substring&ic_trk=on&text_tat=&method_tat=substring&ic_tat=on&text_chg=&method_chg=substring&ic_chg=on&text_uzb=&method_uzb=substring&ic_uzb=on&text_uig=&method_uig=substring&ic_uig=on&text_sjg=&method_sjg=substring&ic_sjg=on&text_azb=&method_azb=substring&ic_azb=on&text_trm=&method_trm=substring&ic_trm=on&text_hak=&method_hak=substring&ic_hak=on&text_shr=&method_shr=substring&ic_shr=on&text_alt=&method_alt=substring&ic_alt=on&text_khal=&method_khal=substring&ic_khal=on&text_chv=&method_chv=substring&ic_chv=on&text_jak=&method_jak=substring&ic_jak=on&text_dolg=&method_dolg=substring&ic_dolg=on&text_tuv=&method_tuv=substring&ic_tuv=on&text_tof=&method_tof=substring&ic_tof=on&text_krg=&method_krg=substring&ic_krg=on&text_kaz=&method_kaz=substring&ic_kaz=on&text_nogx=&method_nogx=substring&ic_nogx=on&text_bas=&method_bas=substring&ic_bas=on&text_blkx=&method_blkx=substring&ic_blkx=on&text_gagx=&method_gagx=substring&ic_gagx=on&text_krmx=&method_krmx=substring&ic_krmx=on&text_klpx=&method_klpx=substring&ic_klpx=on&text_sal=&method_sal=substring&ic_sal=on&text_qum=&method_qum=substring&ic_qum=on&text_reference=&method_reference=substring&ic_reference=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on]  [http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Calt%5Cturcet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=sound&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_atu=&method_atu=substring&ic_atu=on&text_krh=&method_krh=substring&ic_krh=on&text_trk=devir&method_trk=substring&ic_trk=on&text_tat=&method_tat=substring&ic_tat=on&text_chg=&method_chg=substring&ic_chg=on&text_uzb=&method_uzb=substring&ic_uzb=on&text_uig=&method_uig=substring&ic_uig=on&text_sjg=&method_sjg=substring&ic_sjg=on&text_azb=&method_azb=substring&ic_azb=on&text_trm=&method_trm=substring&ic_trm=on&text_hak=&method_hak=substring&ic_hak=on&text_shr=&method_shr=substring&ic_shr=on&text_alt=&method_alt=substring&ic_alt=on&text_khal=&method_khal=substring&ic_khal=on&text_chv=&method_chv=substring&ic_chv=on&text_jak=&method_jak=substring&ic_jak=on&text_dolg=&method_dolg=substring&ic_dolg=on&text_tuv=&method_tuv=substring&ic_tuv=on&text_tof=&method_tof=substring&ic_tof=on&text_krg=&method_krg=substring&ic_krg=on&text_kaz=&method_kaz=substring&ic_kaz=on&text_nogx=&method_nogx=substring&ic_nogx=on&text_bas=&method_bas=substring&ic_bas=on&text_blkx=&method_blkx=substring&ic_blkx=on&text_gagx=&method_gagx=substring&ic_gagx=on&text_krmx=&method_krmx=substring&ic_krmx=on&text_klpx=&method_klpx=substring&ic_klpx=on&text_sal=&method_sal=substring&ic_sal=on&text_qum=&method_qum=substring&ic_qum=on&text_reference=&method_reference=substring&ic_reference=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on]


 * Though I agree that Shawarma/cevirme/doner kebab/gyros are the same dish, the ultimate etymology of 'cevirme' is not relevant here; anyway, even if 'cevir' has a Semitic origin (but isn't the Turkish reflex of DWR devir(mek)?), the -me is surely a Turkish formation; the Arabic derivation would be something like daa'ir, wouldn't it?


 * What's more, even if the word had Semitic roots, all the evidence we have is that the dish is a 19th-century Turkish invention. After all, though the word photography was made of Greek roots in 19th-e, the process was invented in 19th-century France and the the word in 19th-century England. As for kabab, it is indeed a Semitic root, but at least in medieval Arab cookbooks, it generally refers to stewed meat, not grilled or roasted. --macrakis (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes the suffix "me" is turkish DaR=to turn in arabic and other semitic languages. as of DaWWaR it means to make something or someone to turn which gave turkish devirmek.

tshevirmek perhaps came from another semitic language of the otthoman empire such as assyrian.

many turkish verbs are made with an arabic or semitic root+the turkish infinitive mek/mak such as kaybetmek,sanmak... and others are made with persian root+the turkish infinitive mek/mak such as tirsmak,bagishlamak...

Turkey and otthoman empire was a cosmopolitan empire so it could be that an ethnic greek or arab or armenian or turk or assyrian or kurd...first "invented" this technique.

Humanbyrace (talk) 20:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Congratulations again for your biases and arrogance! San- is a well-attested Turkic verbal root meaning "assume, surmise, think" and existing in all Turkic languages&dialects as well as old, ancestral ones such as Göktürk, Old Uyghur, Qarakhan, Cuman. It's nothing to do with Arabic or any other Semitic. Even South Siberian Turkic dialects (Tuvan, Altaian, Khakassian, Shorian) all have the word "sanaa" means "thought, opinion, mind". Bağış means "donation, grant" and bağışlamak means "to donate, to give away, to endow" in all Turkic dialects; it's not Persian. Visit that webpage: and copy-paste bağışlamak to the searchbar then press enter and do the same for sanmak. Tırsmak is 100% Turkic too; you can read that in any source about the Turkic lexicon. Turkic tribes lived in and ruled Persia and other Iranic lands for more than 1 thousand years so Iranic languages&dialects have a lot of Turkic loanwords; Encyclopedia Iranica also admits this fact. Besides, the Uyghurs, the Turkmens, Uzbeks have the same dish with similar names and the Uyghurs call it "tünür kavap" ("turning kabab") like Turkish word "döner kebap" ("turning kabab"). So, it wasn't invented in the Ottoman Empire and An Assyrrian/Armenian/Arab/Kurd might not first "invent" this technique; it's a CENTRAL ASIAN invention either of Turkic or Iranic or Tocharic origin.


 * "Perhaps" tshevirmek "came from another semitic language" etc. But do you have any reliable source for that or for an ethnic Greek inventor of döner kebab; if so, please show it to us. If not, I don't see any reason to change the article. --macrakis (talk) 21:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

origin
There is no source confirming the claim that it was created in Lebanon: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

shawarma around the globe
Shouldn't we be listing the ocuntries where it's most prominent (Turkey, egypt , israel etc) and countries where there are only a few resturants in the end of the list ?


 * I agree, but shawarma is most prominent in Turkey, Lebanon and Syria.--Beyrouthhh (talk) 11:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In the "Around the World" section, the flag shown for Lebanon is actually the flag of India, while the flag shown for India is...well, not India's flag. If someone knows how to correct this, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.67.74 (talk) 11:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

health related information
I would like to see average nutritional values and health related issues. Meat cooked so much can't be good, and since its a fast food with cheap and fat side dishes, even worse92.83.171.84 (talk) 16:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Poor first paragraph
From the very first paragraph of the article. "sandwich-like wrap of shaved lamb (...)"

This sounds like a shawarma is the sandwich or wrap altogether! I know that on the street a Shawarma often means the whole thing, but the word first and foremost means the meat, right? So lets leave the talk about synecdoche-thing for a later time in the article.

"shaved"? I think it means that you cut slices of the spit. But when reading this, it could sound like it is a special kind of shaved sheep, or maybe shaved meat!

My suggestion is smth like: ''Shawarma is a delicacy of Arab origin, made by shaving slices of meat of a spit of meat rotating next to a roaster. The meat is most often bla bla bla or a mix thereof, but can even be bla bla bla. This is similar to doner kebab and bla bla, but in comparison shawarma is characterized by bla bla bla, though in the trade this distinction has often been lost. In many countries it is most often sold in a wrap of flat-bread, and therefore the term Shawarma often simply refers to this entire dish.''

Velle (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit
SupremeDeliciousness has begun an edit war on this page (like it does on every page). A section about Palestine using a text that never mentions that word was removed by an IP, and rightly so. The cited text is about the Middle East. Apart from that, this section (and the bulk of this article) sounds like it was written by a first grader. Oh, and adding "unexplained removal" in her edit summary, she is deliberately inserting falsehoods. I wrote exactly why it was removed in my edit summary. --Geewhiz (talk) 16:29, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I didn't revert any info about Palestine that you removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, there was a merge discussion. It might be sensible to merge this article among others into doner kebab. Copyedit is welcome. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources to add

 * Food Cultures of the World Encyclopedia
 * Encyclopedia of Jewish Food  T i a m u t talk 21:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Ottawa Canada in headline
I reverted this. It's a reddit joke and has no place here.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/w03kk/had_to_correct_wikipedia_when_i_saw_this_injustice/

Brandon3060 (talk) 15:20, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Large quantity of unsourced material removed
I've removed the following completely unsourced bullet points from the section on regional variations:


 * In Australia, Greek, shawarma was introduced by Armenian, Turkish and Lebanese immigrants. It is wrapped in a large pita or khubz, known locally as "Lebanese bread", and consists of beef, chicken or lamb with a salad of lettuce, tomato and onion and cheese. Sometimes tabboulleh is included. Toppings are cucumber sauce (tzatziki), chili sauce and hummus. It is known as a kebab.


 * In Armenia Ġarsi khorovats, šaurma or in the Armenian diaspora, "tarna" (literally, "it turns") is made from lamb, pork or chicken. The meat is grilled on a vertical rotisserie, sliced and wrapped in Armenian flatbread called lavash. It is served with tahini, yogurt, or garlic sauce, and a side of pickled vegetables, "tourshi".


 * In Azerbaijan, shaurma (Aze:Şaurma) is made from chicken and always includes garlic sauce. Doner can be made with either chicken or beef, without garlic sauce. Both are served in bread, lavash, or on a plate. Doner is also served in tandoor bread.
 * In Bangladesh, shawarma is available in restaurants and street-side stalls. It is almost always eaten with roti or paratha. Sometimes shawarma is considered just another type of kabab in the country.
 * In Belgium shawarma is made with a combination of lamb and beef, although pork is not uncommon. The meat is stuffed into a pita with salad and either a white garlic sauce or a spicy red sauce.
 * In Brazil, mainly in São Paulo, shawarma is a street food, served with bread and a cup of juice. It is called churrasquinho grego (Greek barbecue) or churrasco turco (Turkish barbecue). In Porto Alegre, Foz do Iguaçu it is sold as Arabic fast-food.
 * In Bulgaria, shawarma is known as "Duner".
 * In Canada, shawarma is available both as a wrap with traditional vegetables, hummus and hot and garlic sauce, or as a "plate" or "dinner" on a bed of rice with a side of vegetables and salad; the salad can be Middle Eastern, like tabbouleh, or of a more traditional variety, like Greek or Caesar. It is especially popular in Ottawa, which has a large Lebanese population. In some regions of Canada, the term "shawarma" is interchangeable with donairs. In the Montreal region, chicken "shawarma" is often confused with chicken kebabs, known as "shish taouk".
 * In Colombia, shawarma is sold as a light meal in Middle Eastern restaurants and areas such as Barranquilla with a large Arab population.
 * In Denmark, shawarma was introduced in 1981 by Turkish migrant workers. Shawarma is served with julienned salad (onion, tomatoes, cucumber), lettuce, sour cream dressing, and chili oil in either a pita bread, rolled in a flat bread (dürüm) or served on pizza.
 * In Ecuador, shawarma is a popular snack or light meal sold by vendors in main metropolitan areas specially Urdesa, Guayaquil and La Mariscal, Quito. It was introduced by the Middle Eastern immigrant population.
 * In Egypt, Shawarma--pronounced "shawerma"--is a popular street food. Many restaurants and street stands offer variations. Shawarma is often served in small buns as an affordable small meal, with small vegetable portions (mostly heavily grilled tomatoes and onions) and more beef. Beef shawarma is ubiquitously served with a creamy tahina sauce, whereas chicken shawarma is often served with a garlic sauce, known colloquially as tomeya (Arabic ثومية). Shawarma is also served as a topping for seasoned rice and grilled vegetables, 'shawarma fettah'. Shawarma fettah is often served with a much thicker, creamy garlic sauce topping. Shawarma has also been offered as stuffing for Egyptian pies, "feteer".
 * In France, shawarma (or chawarma) is served in Arab and Israeli restaurants. The same item can be bought from ubiquitous fast food vendors under the name sandwich grec, sandwich Turc, or kebab. As a fast food item, it is frequently served with french fries (in the wrap, not on the side) and garnished with a yogurt sauce (sauce blanche) and/or harissa, or a number of other sauces. Doner kebab or sandwich kebab is also ubiquitous at Algerian (or North African) and Turkish owned fast food places. A Tunisian option is harissa.
 * In Germany, doner kebab is a served in a pita bread, rolled in a flat bread (dürüm) or on a plate with side dishes.
 * In Greece, shawarma is known as gyros.
 * In India Shawarma was introduced in the 1980s with non-resident Indians working in Persian Gulf countries. Sometimes Paratha, an Indian flatbread originating in northern India but now eaten everywhere, is used instead of pita.


 * In Australia, Greek, shawarma was introduced by Armenian, Turkish and Lebanese immigrants. It is wrapped in a large pita or khubz, known locally as "Lebanese bread", and consists of beef, chicken or lamb with a salad of lettuce, tomato and onion and cheese. Sometimes tabboulleh is included. Toppings are cucumber sauce (tzatziki), chili sauce and hummus. It is known as a kebab.
 * In Armenia Ġarsi khorovats, šaurma or in the Armenian diaspora, "tarna" (literally, "it turns") is made from lamb, pork or chicken. The meat is grilled on a vertical rotisserie, sliced and wrapped in Armenian flatbread called lavash. It is served with tahini, yogurt, or garlic sauce, and a side of pickled vegetables, "tourshi".
 * In Azerbaijan, shaurma (Aze:Şaurma) is made from chicken and always includes garlic sauce. Doner can be made with either chicken or beef, without garlic sauce. Both are served in bread, lavash, or on a plate. Doner is also served in tandoor bread.
 * In Bangladesh, shawarma is available in restaurants and street-side stalls. It is almost always eaten with roti or paratha. Sometimes shawarma is considered just another type of kabab in the country.
 * In Belgium shawarma is made with a combination of lamb and beef, although pork is not uncommon. The meat is stuffed into a pita with salad and either a white garlic sauce or a spicy red sauce.
 * In Brazil, mainly in São Paulo, shawarma is a street food, served with bread and a cup of juice. It is called churrasquinho grego (Greek barbecue) or churrasco turco (Turkish barbecue). In Porto Alegre, Foz do Iguaçu it is sold as Arabic fast-food.
 * In Bulgaria, shawarma is known as "Duner".
 * In Canada, shawarma is available both as a wrap with traditional vegetables, hummus and hot and garlic sauce, or as a "plate" or "dinner" on a bed of rice with a side of vegetables and salad; the salad can be Middle Eastern, like tabbouleh, or of a more traditional variety, like Greek or Caesar. It is especially popular in Ottawa, which has a large Lebanese population. In some regions of Canada, the term "shawarma" is interchangeable with donairs. In the Montreal region, chicken "shawarma" is often confused with chicken kebabs, known as "shish taouk".
 * In Colombia, shawarma is sold as a light meal in Middle Eastern restaurants and areas such as Barranquilla with a large Arab population.
 * In Denmark, shawarma was introduced in 1981 by Turkish migrant workers. Shawarma is served with julienned salad (onion, tomatoes, cucumber), lettuce, sour cream dressing, and chili oil in either a pita bread, rolled in a flat bread (dürüm) or served on pizza.
 * In Ecuador, shawarma is a popular snack or light meal sold by vendors in main metropolitan areas specially Urdesa, Guayaquil and La Mariscal, Quito. It was introduced by the Middle Eastern immigrant population.
 * In Egypt, Shawarma--pronounced "shawerma"--is a popular street food. Many restaurants and street stands offer variations. Shawarma is often served in small buns as an affordable small meal, with small vegetable portions (mostly heavily grilled tomatoes and onions) and more beef. Beef shawarma is ubiquitously served with a creamy tahina sauce, whereas chicken shawarma is often served with a garlic sauce, known colloquially as tomeya (Arabic ثومية). Shawarma is also served as a topping for seasoned rice and grilled vegetables, 'shawarma fettah'. Shawarma fettah is often served with a much thicker, creamy garlic sauce topping. Shawarma has also been offered as stuffing for Egyptian pies, "feteer".
 * In France, shawarma (or chawarma) is served in Arab and Israeli restaurants. The same item can be bought from ubiquitous fast food vendors under the name sandwich grec, sandwich Turc, or kebab. As a fast food item, it is frequently served with french fries (in the wrap, not on the side) and garnished with a yogurt sauce (sauce blanche) and/or harissa, or a number of other sauces. Doner kebab or sandwich kebab is also ubiquitous at Algerian (or North African) and Turkish owned fast food places. A Tunisian option is harissa.
 * In Germany, doner kebab is a served in a pita bread, rolled in a flat bread (dürüm) or on a plate with side dishes.
 * In Greece, shawarma is known as gyros.
 * In India Shawarma was introduced in the 1980s with non-resident Indians working in Persian Gulf countries. Sometimes Paratha, an Indian flatbread originating in northern India but now eaten everywhere, is used instead of pita.


 * In Australia, Greek, shawarma was introduced by Armenian, Turkish and Lebanese immigrants. It is wrapped in a large pita or khubz, known locally as "Lebanese bread", and consists of beef, chicken or lamb with a salad of lettuce, tomato and onion and cheese. Sometimes tabboulleh is included. Toppings are cucumber sauce (tzatziki), chili sauce and hummus. It is known as a kebab.
 * In Armenia Ġarsi khorovats, šaurma or in the Armenian diaspora, "tarna" (literally, "it turns") is made from lamb, pork or chicken. The meat is grilled on a vertical rotisserie, sliced and wrapped in Armenian flatbread called lavash. It is served with tahini, yogurt, or garlic sauce, and a side of pickled vegetables, "tourshi".
 * In Azerbaijan, shaurma (Aze:Şaurma) is made from chicken and always includes garlic sauce. Doner can be made with either chicken or beef, without garlic sauce. Both are served in bread, lavash, or on a plate. Doner is also served in tandoor bread.
 * In Bangladesh, shawarma is available in restaurants and street-side stalls. It is almost always eaten with roti or paratha. Sometimes shawarma is considered just another type of kabab in the country.
 * In Belgium shawarma is made with a combination of lamb and beef, although pork is not uncommon. The meat is stuffed into a pita with salad and either a white garlic sauce or a spicy red sauce.
 * In Brazil, mainly in São Paulo, shawarma is a street food, served with bread and a cup of juice. It is called churrasquinho grego (Greek barbecue) or churrasco turco (Turkish barbecue). In Porto Alegre, Foz do Iguaçu it is sold as Arabic fast-food.
 * In Bulgaria, shawarma is known as "Duner".
 * In Canada, shawarma is available both as a wrap with traditional vegetables, hummus and hot and garlic sauce, or as a "plate" or "dinner" on a bed of rice with a side of vegetables and salad; the salad can be Middle Eastern, like tabbouleh, or of a more traditional variety, like Greek or Caesar. It is especially popular in Ottawa, which has a large Lebanese population. In some regions of Canada, the term "shawarma" is interchangeable with donairs. In the Montreal region, chicken "shawarma" is often confused with chicken kebabs, known as "shish taouk".
 * In Colombia, shawarma is sold as a light meal in Middle Eastern restaurants and areas such as Barranquilla with a large Arab population.
 * In Denmark, shawarma was introduced in 1981 by Turkish migrant workers. Shawarma is served with julienned salad (onion, tomatoes, cucumber), lettuce, sour cream dressing, and chili oil in either a pita bread, rolled in a flat bread (dürüm) or served on pizza.
 * In Ecuador, shawarma is a popular snack or light meal sold by vendors in main metropolitan areas specially Urdesa, Guayaquil and La Mariscal, Quito. It was introduced by the Middle Eastern immigrant population.
 * In Egypt, Shawarma--pronounced "shawerma"--is a popular street food. Many restaurants and street stands offer variations. Shawarma is often served in small buns as an affordable small meal, with small vegetable portions (mostly heavily grilled tomatoes and onions) and more beef. Beef shawarma is ubiquitously served with a creamy tahina sauce, whereas chicken shawarma is often served with a garlic sauce, known colloquially as tomeya (Arabic ثومية). Shawarma is also served as a topping for seasoned rice and grilled vegetables, 'shawarma fettah'. Shawarma fettah is often served with a much thicker, creamy garlic sauce topping. Shawarma has also been offered as stuffing for Egyptian pies, "feteer".
 * In France, shawarma (or chawarma) is served in Arab and Israeli restaurants. The same item can be bought from ubiquitous fast food vendors under the name sandwich grec, sandwich Turc, or kebab. As a fast food item, it is frequently served with french fries (in the wrap, not on the side) and garnished with a yogurt sauce (sauce blanche) and/or harissa, or a number of other sauces. Doner kebab or sandwich kebab is also ubiquitous at Algerian (or North African) and Turkish owned fast food places. A Tunisian option is harissa.
 * In Germany, doner kebab is a served in a pita bread, rolled in a flat bread (dürüm) or on a plate with side dishes.
 * In Greece, shawarma is known as gyros.
 * In India Shawarma was introduced in the 1980s with non-resident Indians working in Persian Gulf countries. Sometimes Paratha, an Indian flatbread originating in northern India but now eaten everywhere, is used instead of pita.


 * Shawarma is known in Paraguay as lomito árabe (Arabian steak)
 * In the Philippines, shawarma is sold in the streets and stalls at indoor shopping malls in Metro Manila, Cebu City and Bacolod City. Beef shawarma is served in a large pita with vegetables such as onion and tomatoes. The shawarma wrap is usually topped with Cheddar cheese. Its popularity began during the 1980s. "Shawarma Rice" is gaining popularity with younger diners. It consists of the same ingredients as regular shawarma, with the exception of the bread, which is replaced with fried or seasoned rice.
 * In Poland, fixings for what's locally known as "szaorma" include white and red cabbage, pickled vegetables, cucumbers and tomatoes. A sauce like tzatziki sauce is available, as well as spicy sauces.
 * In Romania, shawarma (şaorma or shaorma) is made with lamb, beef or chicken and served in a lavash or pita bread stuffed with french fries, pickles, fried or fresh onion, tomatoes, cabbage and sometimes gherkins. The most common dressings are a combination of spicy garlic sauces, spicy red sauces (containing hot peppers, tomatoes and aromatic herbs), mayonnaise and ketchup (or other sweet red sauces containing tomatoes and/or vinegar and sugar).
 * In Western Russia, shawarma (шаурма or шаверма) is called "shaurma", while in St. Petersburg it is "shaverma". It is eaten with a variety of julienned vegetables (usually tomatoes, cucumbers and onions), tomato sauce, and garlic sauce, and wrapped in lavash. Russian-style shawarma is made of chicken, beef or pork.
 * In Saudi Arabia, shawarma is very popular snack among Saudi and Arab population and also among foreigners. There are three different styles of doing shawarma in Saudi Arabia: Lebanese, Turkish, and Yemeni style. Lebanese is the most popular style and it is usually comes in pita. The toppings are garlic sauce, fries, and pickles. The bread size is usually small so people order two to three shawarmas. The Yemeni style which only can be found in Jeddah comes in a samoli bread aka "submarine bread". The chicken shawarma is prepared in the same way as other styles but the beef shawarma is marinated in a special sauce. Shawarma is more of a night food.
 * In Senegal, shawarma is typical first date food among Senegalese youth.


 * In Spain is a fast food offering particularly popular with lunchtime and late-night crowds.
 * In Suriname, a local fast food chain called 'Wolly's' has a signature dish called 'patat shoarma' which consists of french fries, shoarma chicken covered with Indonesian peanut sauce, ketchup and garlic sauce.
 * In Switzerland, shawarma stands are very common in areas with large Turkish immigrant populations in major cities such as Basel and Zurich.
 * In Syria, Shawarma is a popular street food. Damascus contains some of the oldest Shawarma eateries is widely considered the point from which this specialty spread to other parts of the Middle East. The shawarma sandwich is often toasted and in some few cases then cut into small pieces which can then be served on a plate and dipped in garlic sauce. The addition of Pomegranate sauce to the sandwich is one of the distinguishing qualities of Syrian shawarma.
 * In Taiwan, shawarma (Mandarin Chinese: 沙威馬 shāwēimǎ) is usually made from chicken and is served on a leavened, white flour bun with julienned cabbage, a slice of tomato, sliced onions, ketchup, and mayonnaise. It is often sold in night markets in Taiwan. Additionally, a chain called JS Donair Kebab has begun operating as a fast food chain in several department store food courts. This is a more traditional kebab served with lettuce, tomatoes and other vegetables. In addition, served on a dish with rice.
 * In Tunisia, maqloub is a local version of shawarma. The meat (chicken, lamb, turkey or beef) is served inside the typical Tunisian bread (called "tabuna") or inside the more middle-eastern pita-like bread, together with garlic sauce, chick-pea sauce, local meshuya (a salad made out of grilled capsicum, tomatoes and garlic), cheese, tomatoes, onions, lettuce and fried chips. The shawarma or maqloub is garnished with the Tunisian pepper puree harissa or mayonnaise.
 * In Ukraine shawarma became a popular street food in most large cities in just a few years since beginning of 21st century, while was almost completely unknown until then. In Ukraine this food is called "shaurma".
 * In the United Arab Emirates, shawarma is found almost everywhere. Local law banned outdoor shawarma stalls due to health concerns.


 * In Venezuela, shawarma is commonly seen on the streets of major cities at food business stands. Shawarma carts have become as popular in Venezuela at food business stands as the common empanada. The same stands that sell chawarmas sell the vegetarian falafel as well.
 * In West Africa, shawarma was introduced by Middle Eastern migrants (spelled chawarma in Francophone countries) and is a popular street food. In Nigeria, shawarma is usually served in Lebanese restaurants, and they are a popular delicacy among Arabs, Nigerians and Indians. If prepared by Nigerians, they consist mainly of beef, or chicken, cabbage, tomato ketchup, mayonnaise and chili, differentiating them from those of the Arab-based recipes.

This material may be useful as a starting point for research but should not be restored without proper sourcing. --TS 17:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

--TS 17:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've removed "Sometimes, beef shawarma—despite its name—contains some lamb in addition to the beef, to ensure juiciness.", as that is poppycock. First, I've known NO beef shwarma having lamb added, I'd have tasted my favorite meat. Second, adding lamb would DRY the beef shwarma out, as lamb is MUCH leaner than beef it. Third, it's without citation. I also removed the uncited "Beef can be used for shawarma instead of lamb, and turkey is used instead of chicken." I've never heard of fish or sausage shwarma, but I'll await citation for a bit before removing.Wzrd1 (talk) 01:46, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

The picture
that is the least authentic shwarma ive ever seen............IS THAT A TORTILLA?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.49.44 (talk) 05:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe that is not shoarma, but a doner kebab picture. It should be changed (109.109.96.226 (talk) 08:51, 15 October 2012 (UTC))

Correction of Pronunciation
The pronunciation mentioned in the article under the heading Etymology (/ʃəˈwɑːrmə/) is the English pronunciation. Shouldn't we mention the Arabic pronunciation here. Which, by the way, should be (/ʃɑːwərmə/) or (/ʃɑːwərmɑː/). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wahj-asSaif (talk • contribs) 00:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The Avengers Movie
MINOR SPOILER: Should there be a mention of the Shawarma scene from the Avengers movie in this article, since it's a mainstream reference to an otherwise rare ethnic food for the Avenger's US audience? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Novan Leon (talk • contribs) 21:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Avengers should get mentioned. It's the only reason I came to this page. ZachsMind (talk) 22:39, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Same here! Now I have to find a place close to home that serves itCousert (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:56, 22 May 2012 (UTC).

It probably won't be remembered by anybody in six months time (I'll change my mind if shawarma really takes off as a mainstream fast food by then). The final scene should perhaps be mentioned in the article about the film, and of course that would have a link to this article for people who want to know more. --TS 13:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, there was the fact that it increased Shwarma sales like, insane. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/08/avengers-shawarma-scene-i_n_1500762.html --Ihmhi (talk) 23:43, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The entirety of the story is this statement:
 * Now local shawarma restaurants seem to be having a "moment" -- at least according to an informal poll by TMZ. Ro-Ro's Chicken, a Hollywood shawarma joint, told TMZ that sales have shot up 80 percent since the movie opened.
 * In other words, some guys at TMZ phoned up a random chicken restaurant in Hollywood and asked whether sales had gone up. They got an emphatically affirmative reply, from one restaurant in one district of Los Angeles. On the other hand, as another anecdote, a dear person of my acquaintance who loves the film wants to try Shawarma as a birthday treat. These things don't (yet) belong in this article. If there is in fact a significant uptick in sales and it's reported in reliable sources we should cover it here. --TS 00:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I gauren-damn-tee people will remember Shawrma for all time. #AvengersAssemble — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.169.53 (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I removed the Iron Man link because it is stupid. It's trivia even if it's not in a trivia section, don't put it back in. --68.230.34.247 (talk) 07:25, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I say yes. Start an "In Popular Culture" section. ZachsMind is right that it's the main reason lots of people visited this page. What's more Popular Culture than the Avengers? Brauden (talk) 06:02, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Brauden, i've seen way more useless trivia on Wikipedia in the Popular Culture sections of articles, why not mention it? 76.197.8.180 (talk) 08:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Why hasn't anyone mentioned it yet? I can't see why it should not be mentioned. Even if there is not enough evidence that shows that shawarma sales increased, it could still be mentioned under "In Popular Culture" heading that a scene related to shawarma was included the Avengers movie. --Wahj-asSaif (talk) 23:56, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that the Avengers movie should be mentioned Nineko (talk) 06:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Regional Variations Section
I have removed this entire section as far as I can tell noot a single sentence was adequately surced. The section was full of primary sources and spam. Some of the link were to individual restaurants menus. Looking over the talk page I can see this section has been a source of trouble for years now. 74.4.196.136 (talk) 15:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that the section removed, although did not contain good (if any) references, but still had a lot of good information in it, most of which was probably right and was added by native people. It would have been better to find (or ask for) better citations rather than just remove the whole section. --Wahj-asSaif (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Carne Asada
Is carne asada a Spanish version of Shawarma? The two are very similar.Cousert (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC).
 * I'd like to see an end to the edit war over the presence of this discussion section on the page.


 * In answer to the question, carne asada doesn't appear to be a Spanish version of shawarma. --TS 16:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The closest thing to shawarma that Mexico has is tacos al pastor which is prepared on a spit and served on a corn tortilla with additional toppings. Carne Asada is properly prepared on a grill. Both of these dishes are actually Mexican, not Spanish. Gunblader928 (talk) 16:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Disagreement between Souce 1 and 2
Source 1 mentions that it is an Arab dish popular in the Levent (in reality it is popular throughout the Arab world). Source 2 says it is an Arab dish and stops at that. The introduction that it is a "Leventine Arab dish" is therefore contrary to the sources, especially source 2. I have theerfore changed it to say simply that it is an "Arab dish", as both sources agree on that part at least, and that is also the case in reality if one goes to any Arab country or expat community. SaSH172 (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Tomato, cucumber, beyaz peynir, or patatesli börek
Thats what really you can find on a real breakfeast from turkish habit, before sending the more chick in the wild, as long as i know there is meat without cv other than lean veal or chicken in butchers or döner and sometimes liver can be apperead around, and besides of the appetizer sujuk by kayseri and urfa is by adana a whole non-bacon turkey on a noel what i can say is the Levent is also a  Istanbul district. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.58.50.53 (talk) 19:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Merge with "Avengers" article
It does not seem like this article is necessary on its own, and could easily be covered in the "trivia" section of the Avenger's film page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.32.27 (talk) 17:37, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I take it this is a troll, but just in case: You do realize that shawarma is an actual thing and not just a food in the Avengers' universe, yes? Gunblader928 (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think he's being ironic. If you're going to merge shawarma and doner you might as well merge it with The Avengers, because they are clearly completely different things. 81.96.200.247 (talk) 19:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)