Talk:Shedden massacre/Archive 1

About the name
I think it was probably a poor choice. We don't really know what name this will get called. Also, we don't know where the killings happened, or if they happened in a single event (in other words we don't know if there was a massacre, or a sequence of killings). We just don't know much. Anyways, I won't move it, as its best to wait and see (I just don't like coining terms). --Rob 09:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, I haven't heard of it referred to as the "Shedden massacre". Then again, what else do we call it? Mrtea (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * when the media coins a phrase for it, a new page should be created with this one redirecting to it. WiZZLa 03:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia uses a lot of dry descriptive names, like 2006 Ontario Banditos mass murder. I'm sure it will sort itself out some day. Peter Grey 16:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Candidate names
So far I've heard: Peter Grey 05:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Shedden massacre
 * Stafford Line massacre
 * Bandidos massacre
 * Ontario massacre (is this one verified?)
 * Ontario massacre
 * Ontario mass murder


 * I'm very ehhhh on "Ontario massacre", to me the usage of on in the G&M headline is less of a name, more of just a description. 156.34.221.174 07:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "Ontario massacre" is a temproary news name, akin to "last weekend's killings" or "the bikier massacre", not a timelss encyclopedia name, as it should be.  You need a smaller place name, or to include the year (or more of the date).  We shouldn't pick names that need to be changed.  Incidently, there was another "Bandidos massacre", so that's ruled out as unqualified name as well.  Even though I don't like "Sheddon massacre", I put it back to that, until we find/agree what what the long term replacement is.   --Rob 08:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I have heard the "Shedden Eight" (but only on Global, and only right this minute). Adam Bishop 21:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Revisiting the article name
Is it time to pick a permanent name for the article? Or too soon? The London Free Press, at least, has been quite consistent using the name "Banditos Massacre", so perhaps a less-ambiguous variation, say 2006 Ontario Banditos Massacre would work. Comments? Peter Grey 18:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Certainly there are many names for this event, but a Google search for "Shedden Massacre" seems to indicate that a number of media outlets are taking on this name for the event. Given this uptake and the fact that there are similar events with a similar title on Wikipedia, I think the title is fine the way it is. However, should we ultimately decide to change the title, I hope someone remembers to change the wikilink in the main Bandidos article accordingly (assuming someone doesn't once again succeed in whitewashing this information from that article first). Hiddekel 21:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Kellestine Photo
I added a photo of Wayne Kellestine that I took at a pride parade in the summer of 2005. I can't figure out how to get the caption to show though. the info is in the code...Mike McGregor (Can) 01:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * fixed and made a little smaller with the option to enlarge :) WiZZLa 03:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Motive
the article says "Some news reports suggested that the Bandidos had reached an agreement with the Hells Angels to withdraw from Canada, and the victims were Bandidos members who opposed this agreement.", but there have been so many other theories floated as well. would it be best to take this line out for the time being and replace it when there seems to be some agreement on the motive? Mike McGregor (Can) 03:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * or shoul we make mention of all theories that have had segnifican play in the media? Mike McGregor (Can) 03:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Since it's marked as a current event, I suppose some speculation could be tolerated, but it would definitely need to have references and be specific as to who did the speculating.
 * I think speculation is ok (though not great) if it's sourced to the original speculator (who must be an expert or in a position to know something), there's a precise citation, and preferable there's an exact quote. I think stuff like "Some news reports suggested that the Bandidos had reached an agreement..." should just be removed from the article now, as, at the moment, it doesn't meet the standard, give the importance of the matter.  --Rob 07:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * OK I agree with this removal, since subsequent reporting makes this appear to be just one theory among many. -- Curps 00:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

More speculation by police has been released by "sources" to the Ottawa Sun (April 15th). The article mentions the culprits may have been high on drugs at the time, explaining why the murders were so sloppy. The article also points to either problems with drugs or gang membership as motives. I'm not sure this kind of speculation belongs in this article but it seems to a plausible explanation. There is more speculation by sources at The Globe and Mail (April 14th) including the theory that the eight killed members wanted to 'patch over' to the Hells Angels and Kellestine was against it.
 * That theory is unlikely to have any merit since the Hells Angels now have a policy of not accepting prospective members who have ever been full patch members of one of the other "big four". It does seem, hmmm, somewhat convenient for "Les Hells" that the end result was no more Bandidos in Ontario. My initial theory was that the Angels were ultimately behind the slayings but by all reports they had nothing to do with it; rather it seems to be a case worthy of being aired for a "Canada's Stupidest Criminals" episode if they franchise the concept here. Garth of the Forest (talk) 03:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

current event tag
I removed the current event tag, If people want to keep it up for the duration of the trials, feel free to put it back up. but I don't think it's nessasary any more. Mike McGregor (Can) 17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
Bandidos are a motorcycle club, not a gang. I also re-added the names of the two people initially arrested and charged with murder, against whom charges were later dropped. Mmoyer 14:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Bandidos Motorcycle Gang is classified as a gang by several governments and numerous experts as well as most media organizations. Proxy User (talk) 03:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Victims
The article describes the victims as "full patch" members. This is slang that is probably not understood by the average reader. Is there a less ambiguous term that can be used? Proxy User (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Hopefully should suffice. --Hiddekel (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Kellestine Photo
I've re-added the Kellestine Photo from the 2005 Pride March in London On. The caption was changed to state that the photo was that of Kellestine's brother by an anonymous editor, and the photo was removed in the very next edit by user:Cdurand, stating "' Removed image of Wayne Kellestine's alleged brother. It has no business being in this article.'". As the author and photographer of the image, I assure you that this is in fact a photo of Wayne Kellestine, not some brother of his. If anyone seeks verification of this, there was a London Free Press photo published from the same event this image was taken at. Mike McGregor (Can) (talk) 00:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete section
I marked the Murderers section as incomplete, as there is no mention of the motive. — howcheng  {chat} 04:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. The absence of an motive for the killings did strike me as rather strange as well. Cheers!--A.S. Brown (talk) 20:56, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Patches
Based on my own reading of this subject, it seems that the reason for these killings was the Toronto chapter of the Bandidos had been expelled, but were still wearing their patches. This article could do with some mention of the huge importance attached by outlaw bikers to their patches, which belonged to their clubs, not the people who wear them. It is silly and stupid to murder somebody over wearing a patch, but in the world of outlaw biking, for somebody to wear a patch that they are not entitled to wear is considered highly offensive and usually results in violence. The "no surrender crew" were not supposed to be wearing Bandido patches, but they were, and that is why they were killed. The article could give more attention to that. And it might as benefit from mentioning how the "no surrender crew", to the extent they were respected on the streets, it was because they worn the Bandido patches, which explains why they did not want to give them up. These guys were losers; most of them still lived with their parents because they could not afford to move out, but because they worn the Bandido patches, some people took them seriously. Without their patches, these guys would have been literally nothing. -A.S. Brown (talk) 04:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)