Talk:Sheila Allen (English actress)

Untitled
There are multiple references in Wikipedia to this lady, most of which had been wrongly linked to the American actress of the same name. Sheila Allen has a dinstinguished stage career as a Shakespearean actress and that aspect will be built up. Perhaps it would be better to flag this as a "stub"? LymeRegis (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Flagged as a stub. He's Gone Mental 09:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 27 March 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. Hadal (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

– citizenship is a definitive measure while a decision whether to say if someone is English, Scottish or Welsh is subjective. In my trawl through I only found one actor disambiguated as Welsh.
 * Sheila Allen (English actress) → Sheila Allen (British actress)
 * Peter Alexander (English actor) → Peter Alexander (British actor)
 * James Anderson (English actor) → James Anderson (British actor)
 * Kenny Baker (English actor) → Kenny Baker (British actor)
 * Andy Devine (English actor) → Andy Devine (British actor)
 * Donald Douglas (Scottish actor) → Donald Douglas (British actor)
 * Charles Edwards (English actor) → Charles Edwards (British actor)
 * Harold Goodwin (English actor) → Harold Goodwin (British actor)
 * David Griffin (English actor) → David Griffin (British actor)
 * Margaret Lee (English actress) → Margaret Lee (British actress)
 * Martin Lewis (English actor) → Martin Lewis (British actor)
 * Richard Lynch (Welsh actor) → Richard Lynch (British actor)
 * Kenneth MacDonald (English actor) → Kenneth MacDonald (British actor)
 * James Martin (Scottish actor) → James Martin (British actor)
 * Peter Miles (English actor) → Peter Miles (British actor)
 * James Murray (English actor) → James Murray (British actor)
 * Emily Perry (English actress) → Emily Perry (British actress)
 * Tracy Reed (English actress) → Tracy Reed (British actress)
 * John Robinson (English actor) → John Robinson (British actor)
 * Robert Russell (English actor) → Robert Russell (British actor)
 * David Wallace (Scottish actor) → David Wallace (British actor)
 * Richard Wilson (Scottish actor) → Richard Wilson (British actor)
 * Ben Wright (English actor) → Ben Wright (British actor)

There are 26 Wikipedia articles with the disambiguation ".. (British actress)" and 35 articles with the disambiguation ".. (British actor)".

I first got to thinking about this issue in response to reference to Brittanica articles such as: Although most Britannica articles seem to be subtitled in this way I later also found: None-the-less I think that this may be a good way to standardise article titles. In certain cases there may be nothing to verify whether a person identifies as a member of any of the constituent countries of the UK and yet they all have British citizenship. GregKaye 09:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sir Sean Connery British actor - Sir Sean Connery, original name Thomas Connery (born Aug. 25, 1930, Edinburgh, Scot.), Scottish-born actor whose popularity in James Bond spy thrillers led to a successful, decades-long film career.
 * Richard Burton Welsh actor - Richard Burton, original name Richard Walter Jenkins, Jr.  (born November 10, 1925, Pontrhydyfen, Wales—died August 5, 1984, Geneva, Switzerland), Welsh stage and motion-picture actor noted for his portrayals of highly intelligent and articulate men who are world-weary, cynical, or self-destructive.
 * This is a perennial issue, see Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. My opinion is that they should all be denoted as British.  Mr Stephen (talk) 10:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed, although for politicians related to the UK and european parliaments I'd prefer ".. (UK politicians)".  This gives reference to the country they represent/seek to represent.  In the case of disambiguated titles I think it is worth presenting "British" in the disambiguation and then to present more local details in the article content.  GregKaye 11:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Rename all It's time to put an end to UK exceptionalism on this sort of matter. We don't generally drill down for other countries. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait - if there's a hung parliament in a few weeks the SNP may ask for another referendum. Also Richard Lynch (Welsh actor) is an actor on Welsh-language TV, looks very odd to be "British" In ictu oculi (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose Picking three at random, they all state their nationality in the intro - "Harold Goodwin (22 October 1917 – 3 June 2004) was an English actor", "Richard Lynch (born 1965) is a Southern Welsh television and film actor" and "Richard Wilson OBE (born Ian Carmichael Wilson; 9 July 1936) is a Scottish actor". IE, not British actor. I think MOS:IDENTITY applies here. I would say I'm an English editor, not a British editor.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 19:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Lugnuts. Additionally, "British" is too vague when specifics are known. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Lugnuts' rationale. MOS:IDENTITY needs to be considered here. If any of them are going to be moved, they should be addressed independently. Nymf (talk) 19:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * User:GregKaye, to be honest when the UK has one united British football team in the one sport that anyone in UK actually cares about then maybe. The fact is British people are often first English, Welsh or Scottish - including the Queen, I in Scotland II in England. So let's leave it. I mean "(British footballer)"? that would be nonsense. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Lugnuts' rationale. If someone is from Scotland, England or Wales it is hardly subjective to state that in the title of their article. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 20:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * In ictu oculi Every person on the list, if are travellers and if they don't use another passport, will use a British one. The one single anchor point that they have in common is their citizenship.  I am not making suggestions here but even in regard to football see: List of England international footballers born outside England.  Each person will regardless be a British citizen and then choose their allegiance.  "British" may be vague but other parameters can be uncertain.  Even in football there may players born in one constituent country who have always played for teams in other places, who have hardly lived in the constituent country of their birth and/or who have parents from other places.  The same equally true of people in other spheres of activity.    GregKaye 20:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Opposed per Lugnuts and MarnetteD's comment. Lapadite (talk) 00:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. At the very least, they should be accessible from "British" if no other Brit shares their name -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose The purpose of the information in brackets is simply disambiguation and would not even be there were it not for the fact that there is someone else with the same name, therefore provided it is accurate I don't see that it is necessary to rename the articles. Sealman (talk) 07:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Lugnuts - No point in repeating what's already been said..... – Davey 2010 Talk 17:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. As you can see from this identity card, these people are legally classified as "British citizens." The passports also say "British citizen". In contrast, a person's "Englishness" can be quite subjective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The initializer (talk • contribs)
 * NB see sock puppet investigation on The initializer possibly Kauffner again In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:UKNATIONALS explains why it might not always be a good idea to describe someone as British. Heck, 45% of the Scottish people voted to not be British at all. Nymf (talk) 15:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Support – There is no such thing as an "English actor" or a "Scottish actor". These people are British. This is the equivalent of having Katharine Hepburn at Katharine Hepburn (Connecticutian actress) or Tracy Reed (Londonite actress), and it is downright absurd. We disambiguate by state on Wikipedia, not by town, county or historical region.. RGloucester  — ☎ 00:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Nonsense; there IS such thing as "English actor" and "Scottish actor". It wouldn't be equal to disambiguation by region, town, or county to use either of those as they are countries. WP:PRECISE also applies. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:05, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
 * They are not states. They are merely regions of the British state. WP:PRECISE does not apply. There is no difference between suggesting that one use "Scottish actor" and suggesting that one use "Texan actor" or "Alaskan actor". We do not use such designations for actors from anywhere on Wikipedia, and there is no reason why we should do so for actors from Britain. In fact, American states have more sovereignty than these regions, because of the nature of the American federal system. If one must have "Scottish actor", one must have "Texan actor". I'm opposed to both. Britain is the state, and the sovereign entity. Disambiguation must be applied consistently, unless we are to start writing "Silesian actor" or "Galician poet". There is no justification for using the non-existent "Scottish" and "English" designations. RGloucester  — ☎ 20:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I said they were countries, and countries are often used as DABs. To say "Scottish" and "English" are non-existent designations is absurd, and most certainly is NOT like saying "Texan" or "Alaskan". It would be more like saying "American" or "Canadian". Snuggums (talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 04:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * It is nothing like saying "American" or "Canadian". Both of those are sovereign states, i.e. the United States of America and the Dominion of Canada. There is no such thing as either "Scotland" or "England". No such sovereign entities exist. The only sovereign entity is the British state, i.e. the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Scotland and England are mere historical regions, on par with Silesia and Galicia, or maybe Cornwall or Devon. We do not use historical regions for disambiguation. We disambiguate on the basis of the state that a person has origins in. These people are from British state. RGloucester  — ☎ 06:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Support – I support it because the proposal is not especially controversial -- even though people have different opinions -- there's nothing inflammatory about the suggestion. If within the article a narrower term is used, such as English, then that seems to a good solution -- WP can have it both ways.  But the fact that you're dealing with actors, even "notable" actors, adds an extra consideration: an actor might for an audition like to pass himself or herself off as Welsh in the morning, and Scottish in the afternoon, and if some casting director looks on WP and realizes they're from London and uses that as a reason to call in someone else -- that could cost him or her a job.  WP might want to give actors a bit more latitude to self-identify.  Also I believe that titles of articles are not that easy to correct if a mistake is made, and they are not obviously attached to a reliable source.  So use "British" -- it's more easily accurate. The editor RGloucester makes a good point: WP could start fragmenting titles into smaller and smaller categories, but let's not open that door.  Give WP a break, I say.  Also, MOS:IDENTITY doesn't support one side or the other of this minor debate.  You could argue that it supports both or neither if you wanted to.  Alfadoolittle (talk) 01:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC) — Alfadoolittle (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.  —Editor Nymf is correct to point that out, but I have actually made contributions as editor DocFido, an account I'm not able to access.  I've added a note about this on my talk page.  Alfadoolittle (talk) 14:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose mass move that appears to loose information; if individual cases are shown to be wrong, they should be fixed, either to a more correct specific such as Welsh or Scottish, or to the broader British, but there's no need to do these in bulk; just where English is specifically challenged. 73.222.28.191 (talk) 21:01, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. In the Anglosphere, we don't have (Ontarian actor) or (Texan actor) or (Queenslander actor). In Western Europe, we don't have (Tuscan actor) or (Andalusian actor) or (Burgundian actor) or (Bavarian actor). There isn't any reason I can see why the UK should be treated differently than other nations, and the arguments used to support the current situation could just as easily be applied to the other nations as well. Egsan Bacon (talk) 19:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose this mass nomination. At least two of the nominated people do not refer to themselves as "British." Comparisons with defining Americans by state is incorrect, this is much more like Category:Americans of Irish descent and the myriad other similar categorizations. Either definition by nationality is permissible or it is not. WP should make it's mind up. --Richhoncho (talk) 11:51, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose - English and Scottish ARE nationalities. Unreal7 (talk) 08:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.