Talk:Sheila Varian/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Nominator's comment: I am nominating this BLP of a major Arabian horse breeder who has had a significant impact on the industry. Montanabw (talk) 20:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Reviewer: Malleus Fatuorum 20:27, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Detailed comments to follow shortly.


 * Thank you, I will try to address any concerns, my real life got a bit busy all of a sudden, so may only have some time in the evenings, thus your patience will be appreciated. But I will either try to get things fixed within 24 hours or at least touch bases with a timeline!   Montanabw (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no rush, so long as things are moving forward I'm happy. Malleus Fatuorum 02:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I helped with the refs on this page and will fix-up any mechanics at issue. So far, it's looking like none. I'm watching this page, but if I miss something come and poke me. Cheers, Jack Merridew 04:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you got it unless Malleus says otherwise, thanks for the help on the video refs.  Montanabw (talk) 23:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Lead
 * "Sheila Varian (born 1940) is a breeder of Arabian horses who lives near Arroyo Grande, California." I'm not convinced that where she lives is important, surely what's important is where her horse-breeding establishment is?
 * Both. She lives on the place.  Is there a way you suggest I rephrase?  I'm open to ideas.  As for the level of detail besides simple geographical location, is that she and the ranch have been there for 50 years, she's lived her whole life in the area.  And it's kind of a big deal to her, the whole thing of having roots in Central California ties into her training philosopy, etc.  The Twaites book is actually about the whole horse culture of the central California coast.  However, all that is sort of a digression from here. Let me know what I can do to make this smoother!  ;-)   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed it to "lives and works". Malleus Fatuorum 16:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Groovy. I added a little more to that part of the lead, hope it's better.   Montanabw (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "As a horse breeder, Varian has produced some of the most influential Arabian stallions in the breed, and through her foundation mares, including three which she obtained from Poland while the nation was still behind the Iron Curtain, she has bred nine generations of Arabian horses, whose bloodlines are currently found in a significant number of winning Arabian show horses in the United States." That's a fair attempt at the world's longest sentence record, but what does "as a horse breeder" bring to the party? As opposed to a what? Could it not just start off with something like "Varian has bred ..."?
 * Well, you and E DID say the lead was too short! LOL!  ;-)  I can keep working on that lead, leads ARE my weak spot.   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Rewrote some, see if that helped!  Montanabw (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * " For her accomplishments as a breeder, Varian has received several recognition awards from within the Arabian horse industry ...". I don't think that "from within" can be right here. How about just "from"? Also, the very next sentence begins "For her accomplishments as a breeder" as well, which looks a bit naff.
 * Ditto above, I'll tweak.  Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked that. The deal is that there is not just one organization in the Arabian breed, she got awards from a couple of different ones.   Montanabw (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Training philosophy and Vaquero tradition
 * "Varian utilizes vaquero-influenced methods in training her horses". Why is "vaquero" sometimes italicised and sometimes not? And why is it capitalised in this section heading and elsewhere?
 * Good catch. I'll have to review MOS.  It's a Spanish word, so I presume italicized.  (I am sandboxing an article on vaqueros, currently it redirects to cowboy, but really shouldn't.) Follow up: My read of MOS suggests I should have it italicized, so I think I caught it and made it so throughout. However, if someone feels it should not be italicized, I can go back through and undo those. No big deal either way, whatever you want.   Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "In her twenties, Varian met Tom Dorrance, who introduced her to his “soft approach” of working with horses, and his methods also strongly influenced Varian." "Also" doesn't really make sense here.
 * "Also" meaning "in addition to all the stuff about vaquero philosophy she learned from Sid Spencer." I tweaked it, see if it's better.   Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Although the traditional Vaquero method starts a young horse in the hackamore ..." Eh? What's a hackamore?
 * I forgot to wikilink? Do I need to explain in the article?  (An edit war once broke out over the definition of a hackamore, which is NOT a "bitless bridle", that's why I ask...).   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "After a year or two, she will introduce the young horse to a "half-breed" or low-port curb bit, and uses two sets of reins, one set on the bosal and one on the curb. After a couple of years in a two-rein, the horse is eventually introduced to the spade bit at the age of 7 or 8 if they have suitable conformation and temperament to carry it." I'm completely at a loss with that I'm afraid. Is it not possible to briefly explain what these different kinds of bits are?
 * Again, will the wikilinks be sufficient? If not, how much detail is needed, yet how do I not bog the article down with a tangent??  I'm open to advice...?   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Reworked section, see also below. Hope it's better.   Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Varian had a strong interest in the history of the spade bit horse in California." As a non-horsey person it seems strange to me to talk about "spade bit borses", but I'll defer to you if that's common parlance. Presumably though this is connected with the vaquero tradition, which it might be worth be mentioning here.
 * Reworked the section. Let me know if that helped.   Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "... to be a spade bit horse requires a horse with a higher neck set and proudly carried head." "To be a spade bit horse requires a horse ..." looks strange.
 * I that phrasing is pretty close to the source, I will tweak.  Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ditto above two, part of section rework. Hope I didn't go on and on too much about this.  Let me know if I'm crossing the line between an article about a person and an article about the training methods in general.    Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Varian Arabians
 * "The team was undefeated in competition against other Arabian horses ...", What team? Varian and her horse?
 * Yep. Feel free to give that a fast tweak if you want.  Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC) I tweaked, see if it's better.   Montanabw (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "... Huckleberry Bey (× Taffona by Raffon); U.S. Reserve National Champion Bey Shah (× Star of Ofir by Bask); and Barbary (× Balalinka)". I'm not quite sure of the nomenclature here, but does "x Taffona by Raffon", for instance, mean that they were Huckleberry Bey's parents? If so, why is only one name given for Barbary's parents?
 * In horse lingo, Raffon is the sire of Taffona. It's standard nomenclature for times when the dam may not be particularly famous, but her sire is.  How can I do this better for non-horse people?   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest "Huckleberry Bey (sired by Taffon who was sired by Raffon)" etc. ... just easier and horsepeople known that lingo also. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Okey dokey. Except Taffona was the mare (grin). But I get it... and I tried to fix it in a way where I explain it out first before resorting to abbreviations.  Let me know if this works.   Montanabw (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Recognition as a horse breeder
 * "Varian Arabians has been ranked multiple times as one of the top 10 Leading Arabian Breeders of winning horses". Should this be "Top Ten Leading Arabian Breeders ..."? The capitalisation of "Leading Arabian Breeders" seems to clash with what goes before and after it.
 * I"ll check the source, seems the title of the list was capitalized that way.  Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "The ranch was ranked #1 in calendar year 2008,[51] #4 in 2009,[52] and #5 in 2006,[53] and #7 in 2007." Not a problem for this GA review, but it will be if you're planning to take this all the way to FAC. The MoS says "Avoid using the # symbol (known as the number sign, hash sign, or pound sign) when referring to numbers or rankings. Instead use the word 'number', or the abbreviation 'No. In this case I think that "The ranch was ranked first in calendar year 2008,[51] fourth in 2009,[52] fifth in 2006,[53] and seventh in 2007" might be better, but it's your choice.
 * I can fix that. No problem.  I got lazy.   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Cowgirl Hall of Fame
 * "She was honored for both her contributions as a horse breeder and as a trainer,[16] but the honor was also a return to her roots". In what sense is the receipt of an honor a return to her roots?
 * I don't want to go OR and interpret the source where that statement appears, but basically, she got the award for her preservation of traditional training as much as for horse breeding (maybe MORE for her preservation of traditional training). As she sort got into the whole madness of the glitz and glamour of Arabian industry in the 80s and into having a number of big English pleasure horses (Huckleberry Bey, etc), mostly because that was the only way to make a profit for a while, this is sort of a "she's going back to dance with them that brung her" acknowledgement... open to ideas of how to say that better.   Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm a little stumped. The source says it this way: "In many ways, it was a return to her roots - to the young girl who was fascinated by the old California vaquero style of riding, and who studied the masters' time-consuming and exacting tradition of training young horses from hackamore to two-rein to spade bit."  Not sure how to summarize that without drifting into OR territory.  Help??   Montanabw (talk) 20:39, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * General
 * This is a biographical article, but there's hardly any mention of Varian's life after her teens other than her horse work. Did she get married? Have children?


 * Nope. Her "kids" all whinny.  Single, no children.  Career-wise, she taught Physical education for three years back in the 60s and bailed to run the ranch full time.  Horses ARE her life.  No known SO.  Is it worth noting that a lot of people on her staff have worked for her for a couple decades, and she has a large extended family?    Montanabw (talk) 15:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * As this is a BLP we obviously need to be sensitive to Sheila's feelings. I'd say that her SO is her own business, not the business of an encyclopedia article. If you've got a source saying that she taught PE before she ran the ranch then that would be worth adding, as would that lots of her staff have been with her for decades. It's not so unusual to have not very much on the personal lives of people who prefer to keep their private lives private. Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * They gym teacher thing is sourcable, the staff stuff is OR that I heard firsthand, so can't use unless I can back it up somewhere on her web site. Will dig later.  On that note, her birth year is also a guess; based on things like "she was X years old when she won this award," and hence could be off by a year or so one way or the other.  I absolutely cannot locate her birth date anywhere, and so should I put "circa" 1940? (The only thing that came up, anywhere, was a google link to one of those people search sites, and I can say it and others like it have multiple links on me that are off by as much as three years in both directions, so no help there, and I'm not going to pay money to be a stalker (!)  I also just finished going through the video source to note time stamps, and there she pretty much told her audience (nicely) that her age is nobody's business.   Montanabw (talk) 03:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * If she's sensitive about her birth date and it can't be reliably sourced then I'd say just don't mention it all. People can make up their own minds about her age based on the information in the article. Malleus Fatuorum 04:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC)