Talk:Shenyang WS-10/Archive 1

Variants Section
There are no sources to back any of the information and since the current WS-10 is reportedly struggling to meet the set performance figures isnt it a bit early to speculate on performance. Its also rather unreasonable that the engine, which is still being developed, would already have multiple variants of varying thrust classes. IE: why would you invest in an variant that is 10% more powerful and at the same time invest in another variant that is 20% more powerful. Any reasonable company would simply be trying to maximize performance for an upgraded variant, not make as many different versions as possible; it makes it seem that the section is merely opinion (apart from the fact that it isnt cited to begin with). -Nem1yan (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

this article does not quote a single official source to show the WS-10 is based upon, most of the claims come from chinese posters on forum but not a single official proof, in faxct i gave spme russian sources thaq claim the WS-10 is a copy of Al-31 including an articler by victor Chepkin director of Saturn who clains it is a copy of their own Al-31 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.167.63.15 (talk) 05:46, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

here are the links tha some onwe here does not one to show Several Russian and Western publications have asserted WS-10 is a derivative of the AL-31, in fact First Deputy General Director of JSC "NPO Saturn" - General Designer Victor CHEPKIN; claimed the WS-10 is basicly a copy of the Russian made AL-31 ；popular Mechanics made the same assertion in one of its issues recently titled "How China Steals U.S. Military Secrets" and the Russian internet news outlet Lenta.ru also claimed the Al-31 was the base of the WS-10. The Internet outlet strategy page did the same in Octuber 2011 on an article titled "Chinese Engines Miss The Finish Line" by James Dunnigan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.167.63.15 (talk) 05:52, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * this bias in your tone is evident, and is irrelevant in the modern era. Dark Liberty (talk) 06:16, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

This section is mostly wrong, specifically the thrust numbers and designations. I don't have anything particularly citable, but take a look at the following forum posts (the first has sources in Chinese, the second is information from an insider on a Chinese forum):

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-j-20-engine-discussion-is-over-to-separate-from-the-j-20-news.514445/page-20#post-9833811

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-aero-engine-information-thread.300409/page-48#post-9999389

The numbers generally match and are, in my view, much more likely to be correct than what is currently there. They are also lower. I won't change the article, just to let people know. 2A00:EE2:6203:1200:DC96:BE89:E0D7:5FE9 (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Updated Data
Updated data from 2014 airshow: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d48grXJ-8yo/VGtIfF-QrjI/AAAAAAAAEzs/dsOwPk9ip8w/s0/image.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by AChig (talk • contribs) 03:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Improved WS-10 thrust range - 7 August 2015
In ANALYSIS: Can China break the military aircraft engine bottleneck? by Richard Fisher (27 May 2015), it states:

"In early May, it was revealed that the electronically-scanned array radar-equipped J-11D had made its first flight. At the same time, there were unconfirmed reports it featured a new variant of the Taihang, with improved reliability and thrust approaching that of the AL-31F-M1; or more than 13t."

In other words, the lower bound is indicated as 13t ("more than 13t", the semi-colon indicates that statement is meant to clarify the former statement.) The upper bound is the thrust of the AL-31F-M1; actually, the upper bound is less than that engine since the statement says "approaching that of" (i.e. it does not achieve the thrust of the AL-31F-M1.) - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 23:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Revert to revision 817384989
I have reverted the revision for the following reasons:


 * If use on the J-10 is unconfirmed, then it should not be in the infobox.
 * China Arms is a blog, and so unlikely to be a reliable source. Military Factory has no public editorial policy, shows no sources, does not identify authors, etc, and so is also unlikely to be a reliable source.
 * The Janes article (at least in non-paid the visible portion) does not say "[the 140 kN] variant of WS-10 engine is now mature enough to power the J-20A fighter", so that's original research. The existence of the improved version of the engine has already been noted in the article. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 08:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Ok, the blog is not accurate but Jane's source is very accurate and reliable. Please do not generalize.
You removed Jane's source as well.

Please do not generalize.

Also, regarding J-10 using the WS-10 engine, it was already in the introduction. I was just adding it to the box.

--2600:1700:1020:9A0:DD2D:9613:F23D:D918 (talk) 02:54, 29 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Nowhere in the Janes article does it verify that "[the 140 kN] variant of WS-10 engine is now mature enough to power the J-20A fighter"; that addition is original research, and addition of original research is prohibited by Wikipedia policy (see No original research.)


 * None of the unconfirmed uses are in the box (like the J-11D.) The J-10 doesn't go in the box either.


 * The elements from the blogs and other websites were removed since they are not reliable sources (see WP:BLOGS and Identifying reliable sources.)


 * I am therefore reverting it again. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 03:50, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

WS-10 Engine began replacing AL-31FM since late 2019
According to the Diplomat:

"In late July 2019, some rather credible rumors and blurry pictures from CAC’s factory strongly indicated that production J-20s have been equipped with WS-10 variant engines, replacing the Russian Al-31s. However, it will likely take a number of months if not years for clear pictures of WS-10 powered J-20s in PLAAF colors to be released. It is also noteworthy that those same rumors and pictures strongly suggested J-10C production has shifted to WS-10 engines as well." https://thediplomat.com/2019/08/chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter-today-and-into-the-2020s/

According to SAE:

"Last year, China state media reported that Chengdu J-20 was ready for mass production and operational service. Low rate initial production models of the Chengdu J-20 were equipped with Shenyang WS-10B – a variant of the engine developed on the Chengdu J-10. Although state media reports that the Chengdu J-20 will eventually use WS-15 turbofans to achieve supercruise, eyes will be on the now-validated WS-10G thrust vectoring engine to see if the J-10 to J-20 engine pattern continues." https://www.sae.org/news/2018/11/j-10b-fighter-aircraft-debuts-chinese-thrust-vectoring-technology-at-2018-china-international-aviation--aerospace-exhibition

Both source concluded that the latest production of J-20 indeed uses the latest advanced variant of WS-10 engine, code named WS-10B. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.72.222.15 (talk) 01:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The Diplomat article explicitly notes that there is insufficient evidence to verify that production model J-20s are equipped with the WS-10. SAE alone cannot be used to verify the claim; it requires extrapolating that the LRIP J-20s are the same as the production model J-20s. This would require additional evidence given the use of the AL-31 at the start of production.


 * At best, the article can note that some LRIP J-20s are equipped with the WS-10 using SAE (I like to think this would be uncontroversial, since the WS-10 has been test flown on the J-20. Guidelines permit this.) But I don't think tests are enough to say that the aircraft is a "major application" in the infobox.


 * Guesses about whether the J-20 is using the WS-10 should go in the J-20 article. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 04:19, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Well if that is the case then you should stop removing the sourced materials all together. I will change the wording to match your description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.72.222.15 (talk) 13:11, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I added the LRIP aircraft to the "Applications" section. As noted before, there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that the WS-10 has replaced the AL-31 in general production, and therefore the J-20 is not a "major application". - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 14:50, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I have decided to report you for your disruptive editing and vandalizing. Since you are not capable of rational reasoning and edit with personal propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.72.222.15 (talk) 05:11, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Change/revert rationales

 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shenyang_WS-10&diff=980366916&oldid=980332112&diffmode=source

Reverted because source used is not reliable. There is no authorship or publisher information, and so is impossible to determine qualifications of the creator. Google search doesn't turn up author information either, and demonstrates the site is non-notable.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shenyang_WS-10&diff=980367156&oldid=980366916&diffmode=source

Changing the section to "Major Applications" is a continuation of WP:NPOV push from previous talk section (generally with the goal of removing/downplaying references to Chinese use of imported products.) It also makes little sense to list every test platform as a "Major Application".

The suggested article guidelines for engines (WikiProject Aircraft/Engines/page content) also supports a "Applications" section. In this case, dividing the section by engine and including usage notes as appropriate seems both clear and sufficient.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shenyang_WS-10&diff=980369113&oldid=980367377&diffmode=source

No source provided (WP:VERIFY). Also another instance of an optimistic WP:CRYSTALBALL POV (or NPOV as the case may be) in a field where "any day now" has been the case for the past 20 years.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shenyang_WS-10&diff=980369626&oldid=980369113&diffmode=source

Source does not use that technical term (i.e. fails verification). - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 17:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

If you find "reliable" sources, then use provide them. Until then, you should not remove referenced materials.

WS-10C now officially powers the J-20 production variant according to Flight Global
Here is the reference.

Chinese airpower reaches for the big leagues in 2021

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/chinese-airpower-reaches-for-the-big-leagues-in-2021/141314.article#:~:text=The%20development%20of%20Chinese%20airpower,of%20a%20new%20stealth%20bomber.

According to flight global: "China’s premiere fighter, the Chengdu J-20, is flying with a local engine, the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang – early versions used Russian Saturn AL-31s. In November 2020, images emerged of J-20s powered with an updated version of the WS-10, the WS-10C."


 * That does not verify the claim that the production version is flying with the WS-10C. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 04:38, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

It does verify the claim. It is from flight global and the wording is clear ! It is also clear that the Chinese intend to replace the AL-31 with the WS-10 and there are already sufficient proofs that this already happened. This source from flight global is just the final nail on the coffin.

--2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 04:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The article doesn't say anything about "production aircraft"; that's original research on your part. Onus is on you (WP:BURDEN) to provide sources that support that claim. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 04:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Another source from EuroAsian
China To Power Its J-20 Stealth Fighter Jets With Home-Grown Tech; Dumps Russian AL-31F Engines

https://eurasiantimes.com/china-to-junk-russian-al-31f-power-its-j-20-stealth-fighter-jets-with-home-grown-engines/

Now with this source, it is safe to say that WS-10C has officially replaced the AL-31 as the production engine for J-20.

Adding J-20 as the major application.

--2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 04:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * That article says:

"According to the military source cited above, the new fighter prototype was powered by two WS-10C engines, however, the modified engines are only a stopgap choice for the J-20 fighters."


 * Bolding mine. So also does not confirm usage on production aircraft. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 04:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

It is a stop gap until WS-15 becomes ready. WS-10C now replaced the AL-31 as the production engine for the J-20. The title of the source clearly says it.

China To Power Its J-20 Stealth Fighter Jets With Home-Grown Tech; Dumps Russian AL-31F Engines — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

It also says: “The use of WS-10C to replace Russian engines was caused by the failure of WS-15 to pass its final evaluation in 2019. The air force is not happy with the final results, demanding that engine technicians modify it until it meets all standards, for example, matching the F119 engine used by the Americans’ F-22 Raptor,” the source said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

'''The bottom line is that Russian AL-31 is now gone ! Newly build J-20 are using WS-10C as the source from flight global and Euro Asian both clearly stated ! How much more verification do you need? or are you simply trolling?''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The part about The use of WS-10C to replace Russian engines refers to use on the prototype. It's the rationale for trying the WS-10C on the J-20. That paragraph follows the one I previously quoted.


 * As for the WS-10C being used on production J-20s, the article does not support this. It tells us that China wants/expects to (which isn't news.) The article title refers to the projected future ("China To Power Its J-20 Stealth Fighter Jets With Home-Grown Tech; Dumps Russian AL-31F Engines"). The clarifying first paragraph also does this:

"China is planning to replace the Russian AL-31F engines, which power its fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter jets, with the upgraded version of its home-grown WS-10 engines."


 * In other words, that article does not verify the claim. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 05:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, please read the sources down below then.

They all clearly says: "China now ceases using Russian engines" Replaced them with domestic engine which is WS-10C and even mentioned WS-10C !!

Source from Global Times Confirms J-20 production variant uses WS-10C engine
'''Twin-seat variation & domestic engine-equipped version of J-20 make official appearances '''

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212362.shtml

"This is also the first time the PLA Air Force has confirmed that a J-20 equipped with a domestically made engine has entered service, Passion News, a media outlet under k618.cn, a news portal run by the Communist Youth League of China Central Committee, reported on Friday.

Designed with stealth capability, the WS-10C engines provide more powerful thrust than the Russian engines previously used on the J-20, since the Chinese engines use full authority digital engine control technology and improved afterburners, the Passion News report said.

Domestic engines will not only let the J-20 become stronger, but also enable the mass production of the aircraft without the limitation of imported engines, analysts said, noting that the J-20 will eventually use the WS-15, an even more powerful domestically developed engine."

There you go, J-20 equipped with WS-10C engine entered service !

--2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:09, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

'Here is another source backing up Global Time. ' https://asiatimes.com/2021/01/plaaf-twin-seat-j-20-to-sport-domestic-engine-report/

'''Domestic engine to power China’s twin-seat J-20 fighter ''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Global Times is not a reliable source (see Reliable sources/Perennial sources). The "supporting" article cites the Global Times article as its source, and unsurprisingly just parrots the GT article. This is hardly authoritative. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 05:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

'''If you have reliable source to counter Global Times, please do so. There are plenty other sources list below stated the same as Global Time. Also, be careful. Global Time is reporting news directly from AVIC in this source, it is not stating its own point of view. The sources below from business insider and The Diplomat also reported the same thing from AVIC which is the designer and manufacturer of J-20. ''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Another highly reliable source suggested that WS-10C could replace AL-31 in the near future.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/26455/China_Replaces_Russian_Engine_in_J_10C_Jet_With_Locally_made_WS_10_Taihang#.YAEko-hKhPY

'''China Replaces Russian Engine in J-10C Jet With Locally-made WS-10 Taihang '''

'''"China's stealth fighter jet, J-20, which was also developed by the AVIC's Chengdu branch, could also use the WS-10 engine in the future, Wei said." '''

'''Since source from 2020 indicated that WS-10C will soon replace AL-31FM as the production engine for J-20, and now this has been confirmed by multiple sources. It is safe to say that production J-20 now uses WS-10C until the more powerful WS-15 becomes available. ''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * This article also refers to the use of the WS-10 on the J-20 as something that may occur in the future. (It also doesn't specify which WS-10 variant.) The article doesn't add anything, which is unsurprising since it was written in March 2020. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 05:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

'''True, but it is important, because back in 2020 there are already high reliable source suggesting that China is moving away from AL-31 and already had the option WS-10C to do so. The sources recently from Flight global, the diplomat, and business insider pointed out that the process is NOW taking place ! Meaning that AL-31 is out and WS-10C is in. The production J-20 now uses or will VERY soon uses WS-10C as a stop gap until WS-15 become ready !

Therefore, I want the two of us come to an agreement that a more neutral wording should be used. Please stop removing highly creditable references and I already changed the words to match what you want.'''

--2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The sources show that prototype(s) of the J-20 using WS-10C exist. The SCMP source by Minnie Chan clarifies that this is for a projected year of testing and that production aircraft are still using Russian engines.


 * As I have pointed out elsewhere, the interpretation that production J-20s are being powered by the WS-10C is unsupported. All you're doing is WP:OR (by making the unsupported claim) or WP:CRYSTALBALL (by insisting on putting soon everywhere.


 * Your appeals for "neutrality" are nothing more than attempts to get unverified information onto the wiki for the opposite of WP:NPOV. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 06:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

'''I changed the wording on the J-20 page to prototype. It is still a very important development, yet you still removed everything. If you insist that J-20 production variant will use WS-10C later this year. Fine, do you changes on the WS-10 page but please spare J-20 page.'''

'Also, one VERY important thing! Not only do the sources showed that the latest J-20 prototypes are using WS-10C, they also stated that Chinese engineers find the WS-10C to be as good as AL-31FM3. This is EXTREAMLY important !! Because it proves that China will replace AL-31 with WS-10 engine not only because it is local but WS-10 has caught up with AL-31FM3 in terms of quality, reliability and performances !!'

--2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 06:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

China will cease using the Russian engine currently fitted on China's new generation J-20 stealth fighter jet, replacing it with an upgraded home-grown engine AKA WS-10C.
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-modifies-j20-stealth-fighter-engine-to-match-us-f22-2021-1?r=US&IR=T

According to business insider "China will cease using the Russian engine currently fitted on China's new generation J-20 stealth fighter jet, replacing it with an upgraded home-grown engine."

"A military insider told the South China Morning Post Chinese aircraft engineers found their domestically built WS-10C, the modified version of the WS-10 engine, to be as good as the Russian AL-31F engines."

Note, Business Insider is a VERY reliable source ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * BI is actually republishing an article by Minnie Chan from SCMP.


 * Again, it's talking about projected future developments ("will cease".)


 * The relevant paragraphs are:

""A modified version of the J-20B entered mass production in June last year after Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), the developer of the J-20, set up a fourth production line in 2019. Each line has the capacity to make about one J-20 a month."

""But these mass-produced J-20 will still be fitted with Russian engines because testing the WS-10C will take at least a year, according to the insider.""


 * This article too refers to the prototype J-20 equipped with the WS-10C, presumably to allow that year of testing to occur. So this article too fails to verify that WS-10Cs are being used in production J-20s. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 05:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

'''That means that J-20 will very soon uses WS-10C until WS-15 becomes ready. The wording I used was accurate and you keep removing them ! ''' Anyways, Russian engines AL-31 is out. This is VERY important stuffs in both the J-20 and WS-10 article because it proves that the changes have finally materialized, and that Chinese aerospace industry is progressing rapidly! You can not remove these highly credible references just because of YOUR own opinion !''' Doing so, you broke the rules on Wikipedia yourself, since you are so good at pointing out stuffs and arguing with empty air ! You got NOTHING constructive here to add to the articles !'''

--2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 06:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

China's J-20 Stealth Fighter: Now with Chinese Engines
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter-now-chinese-engines-176156

Earlier this week, the South China Morning Post reported that future models of China’s fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter will no longer ship with Russia’s AL-31F engines. The decision apparently stems from Russia’s insistence on tying future AL-31F engine sales to further Su-35 import deals.

“It’s impossible for China to rely on the Russian engine because Russia asked China to purchase more Su-35 fighter jets in exchange for the AL-31F engine deals,” an insider source told the Morning Post. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4400:5580:A5D2:E6BC:C3D9:1C64 (talk) 05:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The NI article cites Minnie Chan's article from SCMP (subsequently republished in BI), and pretty much parrots the same points. See above for the relevant bits of the Minnie Chan article. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 05:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)