Talk:Shetland/Archive 1

Sold or pawned by Norway?
As I understand it, Norway regarded the islands as having been pawned and has on occasion talked of unpawning it (although it is no longer a realistic possibility). But does anyone have any evidence either way? Warofdreams 12:05, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I read something about the islands being annexed as a a replacement for a Dowry owed to Scotland by the Norse king at the time, because of some... marriage, obviously. Whether this is even remotely true, I don't know. But it that case it is not accurate to say they were pawned. 128.175.205.36 01:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * James III of Scotland married Princess Margaret of Denmark-Norway, but the latter country was unable to provide a proper dowry for her. The result was that James was given control of the islands as a guarantee that her dowry would be paid (according to the Norwegian Wikipedia, the amount promised was 8,000 guilders/gulden). The dowry was never paid, and James annexed the islands to his crown. In Denmark and Norway, the islands are sometimes referred to as simply "pawned", and is seems pretty certain that it was never the Danish intent to surrender the islands permanently. Valentinian (talk) 13:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be very interesting to find a copy of the agreement, if it exists. -- Nidator 14:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In 1669 an Act of Parliament was passed that stated the islands were a dependency and could be redeemed for £30,000. Wayne (talk) 14:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Reclaim attempts by Denmark? Documentation needed.
"Subsequent attempts by Denmark to make good on the debt and reclaim Shetland have been ignored, including the last bid in the early years of the twentieth century"

I allowed myself to delete the phrase 'by Denmark', rendering the rest more neutral. A citation on this very interesting point would be nice. Whereas it is well-known in Denmark and Norway that the islands were pawned, I never heard of any official considerations to redeem the pawn. Sometimes ordinary citizens would talk about the matter in a nostalgic or witty tone, however. I recall a feature in the Danish TV news around 1990 about people in the Orkneys learning Norwegian and - maybe - wanting to get back to Denmark or Norway. I think they also said they had contacted the Danish queen on the matter. Which, by the way, would mean the initiative came from them. I doubt Margrethe II could promise any efforts to reclaim them, even if she wanted to. --213.237.69.51 04:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Name
The people I know on Shetland say that that (ie Shetland) is the proper appellation, and that the "Shetland Islands" is less correct (maybe on the inheritance of Hjaltland): they distinguish clearly between "Shetland" and the "Orkney Islands". Should not the entry here therefore be entitled "Shetland"? Mark O'Sullivan 21:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * ...also engendering a capitalisation inconsistency; we have the "Orkney islands" but the "Shetland Islands". Probably this should be "Shetland" or "Shetland islands", but shouldn't the latter at least be a redirect? Blahedo 07:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Shetland and Shetland Islands are both accepted but local inhabitants absolutely abhor 'the Shetlands'.

Likewise, the Orkneys should be avoided.

Puffinbillyunst 18:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I always have a hard time saying, 'The Falklands' because I'm so anal about people saying 'The Shetlands' :) Treefox 18:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

As a born and bred Shetlander, "Shetland" is the only real name. "Shetland Islands" is acceptable on international mail. But under absolutely no circumstance is "The Shetlands" acceptable. I know it may sound silly to refer to a group of islands in a singular sense, as "Shetland", but that is how the islands have become known locally, and even nationally (Well the BBC at least). Perhaps this goes back to the name Zetland, or Hjaltland, I'm not good on history, but in those days I have never seen the islands referred to as 'Zetland Islands' or 'Hjaltland Islands'. That's my tuppence worth on that. Shetlander57 19:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

New map - comments please
I'm not done with my new map, but I think all that's needed is to add towns. Here's a test version - I'd welcome comments and corrections before I go any further. Thanks. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:11, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * It looks great and could be adapted for use in all the articles on individual islands. My only suggestion would be making it clear that Muckle Roe is a separate island from the Mainland. Warofdreams 13:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, the islandness of Muckle Roe wasn't entirely clear from my reference map, so I'll do that (I've been avoiding it, as it's a bit of a pain to do). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 14:36, August 27, 2005 (UTC)


 * Excellent map! though some of the names are a bit hard to read. Suggest settlements should include as minimum Lerwick, Sumburgh Airport and Sullom Voe Oil Terminal, and also Scalloway as historic capital.  Mark O'Sullivan 14:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It you can't read the labels then you probably need to zoom in further (the original image is nearly 2000 pixels wide, although your browser and mediawiki may scale it down, depending on their configurations). Mapmaking for screens always has this problem - compared with paper, the resolution is so poor that you either have to have a few (giant) labels, or make the image giant.  For future-proofing (and if anyone actually wants to print the image out) I erred on the side of making the image giant. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 14:36, August 27, 2005 (UTC)



The new map is (I think) done. It has the same name as before (you may need to refresh your cached version, as it's now on commons). I also propose to replace all the individual island maps with simplified versions based on it. Three possible versions are shown to the right (I think option one, the simplest, is probably best). Does anyone have any comments before I do this? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:13, August 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * re individual island maps: First, I should point out that I know almost nothing about Shetland (which perhaps is a useful qualification here). I like all three (simple = good in my book), but the first one is, for me, a bit too minimalist. The third is a bit too "busy" for me. The second feels about right. ("Goldilocks" could be my middle name :-).) Actually, I wonder if you shouldn't just not label the various stretches of water, but instead label the two places that outsiders like me have heard of &mdash; Lerwick and the Sullom Voe oil terminal, names to "hook" into. --Finbarr Saunders 22:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Great work! My preference would be for the first - I like simple! - but any of the three would be a big improvement on the maps I knocked up when I was originally creating articles on many of the islands. Warofdreams 14:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I know this is dredging up an old topic, but.... Your map shows the Norwegian Sea, where it really is the Atlantic Ocean, or possibly it could be referred to as the North Atlantic. To my mind and according to all maps in my house, I would suggest that the Norwegian Sea is well north of Shetland. One map I have would suggest that it would lie north of a line between Faroe and Norway. Shetlander57 20:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's rather more complex than that. Firstly the Norwegian Sea is part of the North Atlantic Ocean, so it's quite correct to call the sea northwest of Shetland the North Atlantic. The question is where the boundary of the Norwegian Sea is, and in practice there's a bit of handwaving to be done here.    Formally the boundary between the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea is the Wyville-Thomson Ridge, which is where the relatively shallow waters of the North Sea fall off into the deeper Norwegian basin. In the neighbourhood of the Shetlands this feature is somewhat contorted, forming the Faroe-Shetland trench (see this bathymetric chart); Shetland is on the gentler southern lip of the trench.  Hydrologically the waters northwest of Shetland are transitional, where the waters that characterise both seas mix. The boundary between seas are almost always somewhat fuzzy, but for large general features like seas such generalities are inevitable. One could argue that those waters are in the North Sea (as, at least close to the land, they're of similar depth to those of the North Sea and quite unlike the North Atlantic) but if we look at (what little) reliable sources say, they seem to (arbitrarily, perhaps, but still) put the boundary of the Norwegian Sea at the shore of Shetland.  The geophysical institute at the university of bergen ) says "As the limits of the sea we have taken the coasts of above-named lands and islands, the highest part of the ridges separating the Norwegian Sea from the Atlantic Ocean, a line from the Shetlands to Stad..." and Britannica simply says Shetland is the boundary , and has done since at least 1911. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Gaelic
I disambiguated Gaelic to go to Scottish Gaelic language instead of the disambiguation page. Is that right? --Finbarr Saunders 08:26, 26 August 2005 (UTC) I forgot that - thanks! Mark O'Sullivan 14:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Population?
Population of Shetland is approximately 23,000 people.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.208.78 (talk) 08:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Shetlopedia.com
'''The new Shetlopedia can be used for Shetland Specific articles, text, images, maps, etc.

It's a new website and it needs your input.'''

http://www.shetlopedia.com


 * Is there any benifit on having a completly seperate portal?


 * Why not just keep everything focused in the same place?

To be honest I don't see why there should be a seperate shetlopedia?! Wikipedia is the definitive resource on 'everything' and people would do well to keep it all within it's confines and structure. Why go off and break from this already massive and successful project?


 * A separate site may be wise, given the minutiae apparently contained on Shetlopedia's site. I suspect identical Wikipedia entries would be quickly AfD'd with questions over their notability -James Francis  62.56.124.229 17:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Shetlopedia.com released a statement yesterday which explains "Wikipedia is an excellent general information resource, but by its own rules it is a general resource and contributors are urged not to put ‘trivial’ information into Wikipedia as it would become less useful to the casual user. Shetlopedia.com is different: by specializing on one topic – Shetland – I hope that this can become a centralized resource where all contributors’ knowledge of Shetland is equally valid.". The full press release can be read here.

CFD
The related Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Orkney and Shetland has been nominated for deletion. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page. --Mais oui! 09:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Independent Orkney and Shetland wiki site
User:Mallimak and I held a meeting in Stromness this weekend with a number of interested parties and a group of visiting colleagues from Shetland.

We are all shocked at the way Orkney contributors and contributions have been treated on Wikipedia. It is clear to us that Wikipedia has less to do with encyclopaedic articles and more to do with information control.

There is currently a group of “Wikipedians” dedicated to editing Orkney articles to suit their own agenda and attacking anybody who tries to resist them. None of us can compete with those with the time and inclination to make literally a hundred or more edits each day. We would be willing to contribute scholarly articles and to allow them to be edited (if necessary) and added to by responsible editors – but that is not how things are happening on Wikipedia.

We have resolved to get our own independent wiki site up and running exclusively for encyclopaedic articles on Orkney and Shetland. We shall be approaching local internet service providers and website developers to help us set this up.

If you are interested in contributing to this project please leave a message on the Category talk:Orcadian Wikipedians page. (The Orcadian Wikipedians’ Noticeboard was demolished!)

Locally, we shall advertise in the press in due course.

Orkadian 00:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Shetland Islands → Shetland – Official and commonest name. Mais oui! 02:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Support --Mais oui! 02:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per Mais Oui. The 'What links here' evidence points in this direction, and it seems a prevailing usage in Scotland, although I suppose that is OR. As the official name it should be a 'no-brainer'. --Guinnog 03:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support -- Angus McLellan (Talk) 07:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support -- Evertype· ✆ 08:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support -- dave souza, talk 08:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Peter O. (Talk) 20:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Abtract 21:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Fraslet 21:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support; time for the move, methinks... Aquilina 22:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Not OR; English-speakers can attest to English usage. Ultimately, there is no other source. Septentrionalis 03:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments

Why is the local authority called the Shetland Islands Council then? -  AjaxSmack    06:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Location of Shetland
Look at any map and the Shetland Islands are clearly located between the Orkney Islands and Norway. The Faroe Islands are to the NW of Orkney whilst Shetland is to the NE of Orkney. So unless the meaning of "between" has altered recently, there is no way that Shetland can lie between Orkney and the Faroe Islands. 81.156.57.128 21:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right, see. Please do not edit war but try to seek a decent compromise. --Guinnog 23:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My External LInk was taken away
I think my external link for Reflections of Shetland - DVD was taken away because it was thought to be an advert - I am not really sure.

My question is then why are other external links allowed that advertise their wares - eg ShetlandFood, Taste Shetland, Island Trails, etc

They are selling a product, so why can't I put my DVD link on the website.

My DVD's show evocative still imagery and magical short films accompanied by dialect poetry and traditional Shetland fiddle music. On my website there is an example of the photos (a slide show for each film), a sample of the beautiful Shetland fiddle music. I am selling images of Shetland that show the real Shetland.


 * Good point, I have removed some other, more blatantly commerecial, links. It seems to me that the ones I have left have some useful content but others may disagree. Abtract 14:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So does that mean, I can put my link back? It is showing Shetland, in all its beauty along with the most amazing traditional fiddle music.  Thanks.  Frances


 * I fear not as it is overtly commercial and IMHO adds nothing to the article. I agree with Wangi who removed it. Abtract 14:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

walter scott`s THE PIRATE is not named in the article
hi there... i am spanish and i cannot believe that great walter scott novel THE PIRATE does not appear in the article... i would never ever heard about shetland islands if not for sir walter... and as i, a lot of people.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.125.204.231 (talk) 12:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Island Template
I have created a Template:Infobox Scottish island for use with Scottish islands which is based on the existing Template:Infobox Scotland place but which contains parameters which may be more useful for smaller islands which don't have their own police force or Lord Lieutenant. Comments are welcome on the associated talk page.

I have created it as a template for all Scottish islands and used an image of a longboat next to the Saltire to emphasise the difference with the Scotland place Template. The said image is called Image:McdonaldBoat.jpg. Before ancient foes of Clan Donald complain, I am assured by User:Calgacus that the proper name for this image is a 'Lymphad' and that its was actually purloined from the Russian wikipedia. He also points out that the same image appears for example at the bottom of Image:Norse-Gael_Warrior.PNG and the Sinclair Orkney arms  which suggests to me that the lymphad may be appropriate for all our isles whether they have a primarily Celtic or primarily Norse history. This note has been copied in various places including Talk:Orkney Talk:Shetland Talk:Hebrides Talk:Islands of the Clyde etc.

An example of the template may be found at:Flannan Isles

There is space for references. Groupings and population information are available at List of islands of Scotland the latter being based on the 2001 census. Area measurements for the 162 islands of 100 acres or more in size are available in Haswell-Smith, Hamish. (2004) The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh. Canongate. I'd be happy to pass the relevant numbers on if needed, although I doubt I am going to get around to listing all 162. There is more on this subject at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Shetland on Norwegian Wikipedia
I just had a look at the Norwegian language pages for Shetland and it seems a lot more interesting and encyclopedic than the English language one! See:Shetland on Norwegian Wikipedia - particularly on early history etc. Can anyone who speaks Norwegian do some translation and integrate some of it into the English version? Tony Corsini 10:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have translated most of it now. It needs a thorough check for typos and spelling errors. Inge 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Midnight sun
I have removed the following: Indeed, when standing at the highest point in the Isles, Ronas Hill (height 450m latitude 60° 32' 04"), the sun does not set at mid summer. In midwinter, by contrast, the sun does not fully rise. For the sun to be still visible at midnight you need to be in the Arctic Circle (66N), therfore this cannot be possible. --JBellis 19:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Good spelling edits but I have replaced the "Indeed ... " bit since it may be correct (effect of altitude) and a citation may demonstrate that. Bear in mind that what we know "... cannot be possible" is immaterial; what counts is previously published opinions and 'facts'. :)Abtract 23:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I live at about 61° 56′ and there are some high mountains in the area, one of which is 860 meters above sea level. There are no claims of my home town being part of the midnight sun area. I have not heard of anyone seeing the sun at midnight from any of the mountains. That doesn't mean it isn't so. I haven't heard of everything and maybe noone has bothered to climb the mountain in the middle of the night. But unless someone is willing to state here that they have seen some of the disk of the sun (not just light or glow) at midnight on this mountain (or give good source to the affect) I will remain highly sceptical. It isn't the worst thing to get wrong so I won't push too hard for its removal, but it is dubious and might be better of here on the discussion page until it is verified.Inge 13:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree with Inge above. According to an occasionally reliable source there is no mention of the midnight sun being visible in Scotland and I am not aware of any reliable source stating that it is. I will remove the sentence. Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course I agree too but if we took everything out of the article that we were not aware of a reliable source for there wouldn't be much left ... what we believe to be true is immaterial, its what can be veryfied that counts. I am going to put it back in and please leave it there for a week giving the original author time to cite a reference and then we will remove it. Just give it a chance. :)Abtract 17:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well to be candid I think everything that is not sourced should be taken out, and as I believe JBellis pointed out to me not so long ago, it is rather difficult to prove a negative. However, by all means give it a week. Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Just out of interest this shows Shetland (I think) well outside the artic circle (which of course we knew) but it's a cool site so I thought you may like to see it. Abtract 23:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This really has got to go unless someone would like to rewrite the midnight sun. Inferring that Shetland is in the arctic circle is the kind of poor quality that can give Wikipedia a bad name.  This is supposed to be a Top-importance article.  As for the tricky proving of a negative, the book The Faroe Islands by Liv Kjørskvik Schei says there is no midnight sun in Faroe. Since Faroe is north of Shetland and has higher peaks that would seem to rule out any possibly for Shetland. --JBellis 20:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

HA HA!!! Loved this bit. Having lived on Shetland for 50 years I can assure you there is no sun visible at midnight in the summer. The "Simmer Dim" as it is known refers to a twilight state when it remains light enough to read a book, or take pictures without a flash, but the sun has definitely set. I know, I've taken many a picture of a midsummer sunset, and it is beautiful. I may be wrong, but I think to witness the "Midnight Sun", you would have to go north of the Arctic Circle. Shetlander57 20:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Language
I have added a translation to modern Norwegian and the official english version of the Lord's Prayer to the Shetland Norn example. I am not claiming to know Shetland Norn or to be an expert on Norse. However I have studied Norse a bit and know Norwegian well. I have used the Norwegian forms closest to the words used in the Norn text. There could be a mistake or two if my assumptions are wrong, but I have mostly identified the words in the Norn text in connection to either English or Norwegian/Norse. A literal English translation should preferrably replace the official prayer.Inge 14:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Coat of arms has been deleted
Because a template has been deleted a huge amount of coats of arms images have been deleted. This includes the coat of arms of Shetland. If anyone is able to replace it, please do. Inge 14:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Nearest railway station to Lerwick

 * Lerwick - Bergen 193 nautical miles = 357 km
 * Lerwick - Thurso 133.6 miles = 215 km

--Guinnog 23:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well the well renowned British foreign office seems to disagree with those numbers. I wouldn'd add it if I didn't think I had a reputable source. You have a tourist page and an estate agent page. If this is wrong you should also take it upon yourself to inform the foreign office of that :) Inge 23:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I also posted this to User talk:Inge:
 * Sorry, but you've been taken in by an urban myth, just as that webpage has... It is approx 220 miles from Shetland to Bergen, but it is only approx 130 miles to the railway station at Thurso (Thurso railway station) on the Scottish mainland. I'm going to revert your edit
 * This is the same sort of urban myth that is repeated so often that people assume it's true. It's just like RAF Machrihanish having "the longest runway in the UK" - something which was on their official site (until I pointed out the facts!) even though it's nowhere near it. Thanks/wangi 23:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * PS, it's simple to check for yourself using a very reliable source — a map and ruler :) /wangi 23:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? this info has no place in this article any more than would the location of the nearest llama farm or ice rink. Abtract 00:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Now, those might actually be in Bergen. --Guinnog 00:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I do monitor talk pages of articles I contribute substansially to. No need to pepper my talk page with this issue :) Could it be that the distances have not been measured from Lerwick? North tip of Unst perhaps? This belongs in the article (if true) under transportation as it describes the situation for a mean of transportation which is very important in other parts of the world. Inge 00:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, Thurso would still be approx 50 miles closer. It's utter rubbish, it really is that simple :) /wangi 00:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So which one of you mythbusters want to break this to the Foreign Office? Inge 00:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not as keen anymore? Bear in mind this link from the Foreign Office is the most reputable source given so far and it clearly states that Bergen is the closest railway station. When checking my pocket atlas I too find Thurso to be slightly closer. I might also suggest that a slightly less cocky attitude from some might make the unpleasant buisness of making mistakes (in trusting the British Foreign Office) slightly less uncomfortable. Inge 00:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm only concerned with keeping Wikipedia free of error. Their mistakes are their own concern. Don't forget this is the shower that gave us the Dodgy Dossier! --Guinnog 00:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In my most cocky attitude... I couldn't give a flying f**k what the foreign office have on their site. If they choose to get folk doing work experience in to do their website, then that's their business; if they choose not to do basic verification, well that's their business too. Ta/wangi 23:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Treefox 18:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC) - Well the bit about the Bergen train station (as well as the Bergen McDonalds) comes up in popular discourse a fair bit to claim Norwegian connections.

Slightly on topic. I have seen a book called "The Railways of Shetland", or some name like that. It gave details of all the small bogey type railways set up at various locations throughout the islands. One notable one was at Leebitton, Sandwick, which transported copper ore from the mine there to the Sandsayre Pier, which was designed by Stevenson (Can't remember which one), during the late 1800's or early 1900's. Could be worthy of research for the historical interest. Shetlander57 20:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Gaelic name for the islands
Who were the Cat people? --JBellis 20:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The people who have Caithness, Shetland (in Gaelic) and Sutherland (in Gaelic) named after them. Presumably early inhabitants of most of northern Scotland. Lianachan 20:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're interested, other placename references to them in the north of Scotland include Machair Chat (the coast between Dunrobin and The Ord); Braigh Chat ("upland of the Cats", along River Shin); Dithreadh Chat ("wilderness of the Cats") in Strath Halladale and the Kyle of Sutherland is called An Caol Catach. References in titles include Catach for a man from Sutherland, the Earl of Sutherland was Morair Chat while the Duke was Diuc Chat.  They are likely to have originated in Shetland or Caithness, as they only seem to have placename evidence in eastern and southern Sutherland. Lianachan 20:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no good reason for a Gaelic name for Shetland to appear... That's like listing 'Gran Bretaña' after 'Great Britain' - Spanish is just as well spoken in Great Britain as Gaelic is in Shetland. Treefox 18:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point, I will remove it. Abtract 20:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No because the shetlands islands are a part of Scotland and were so when Gaelic was the main language of Scotland. It also does have gaelic history. Although Gaelic was never the dominant lanuage it would surely have been used in some administration purposes. Many parts of the country have had different languuages influecning it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.143.146 (talk) 22:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Text added to article
Text added in this edit: "cullivoe is at the north of shetland but unst is the northest". I assume this refers to islands around Shetland - just noting it here in case modifications to the article need to be made according to that text. Graham 87 14:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Future kings of Denmark-Norway?
I'm a little puzzled by this phrase:

"He secured a clause in the contract which gave future kings of Denmark-Norway the right to redeem the islands for a fixed sum of 210 kg of gold or 2,310 kg of silver."

I wonder what the contract text actually said. As I understand it, this happened before the period with the entity we now refer to as Denmark–Norway, and King Christian I was crowned separately as the King of Denmark and as the King of Norway. I know that a treaty was signed that Norway and Denmark was to have the same king, but they were still separate thrones to a much higher degree than during the later Denmark-Norway. I believe his successor was also crowned separately in Copenhagen and Trondheim. So, I think this paragraph should be changed, but without knowing what the contract said it is difficult to know to what. I don't know enough to say whether or not he should have had the approval of the Norwegian Riksråd, but either way it seems obvious that what he did with regards to Norwegian possessions he did as the King of Norway. Opinions? -- Nidator 14:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have located an English translation of the 1468 treaty where Orkney was "pawned", and it refers to the Norwegian crown with regards to the right of redemption. To quote:


 * "...ever and until whole and full satisfaction and payment is effectually made by us, our heirs and successors, kings of Norway, to the foresaid James, king of Scots, his heirs or successors, of the sum of fifty thousand florins of the Rhine remaining of part of the dowry"


 * The source that is used for the article text as it is, with regards to both Orkney and Shetland, also says "future Norwegian kings". Further I would like to point out that by this time, 1468, Christian I was no longer the king of Sweden, so even if he was still referring to himself as such I do not think we should. I will make the necessary changes and post the 1468 treaty link as an additional source. -- Nidator T / C 01:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Adjective
Is "Shetland" an adjective as well as a noun? --Adoniscik (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Why the Gaelic Name
I see mention in the box on the right of the island's name in Scots Gaelic, and of the number of Scots Gaelie speakers which just displays an error message. As an Irishman, I understand the importance of maintaining ones language, but Shetland was never a Gaelic place, it was Norse, then English: no Gaelic language was ever spoken there, except by passing visitors. Indeed, rather than try to give the number of Gaelic speakers (certain to be zero), it would be better to focus on the use of Norn or Shetlandic, the two languages that are indigenous to the region.

Furthermore, should someone wish to retain the Gaelic version, a better translation is needed. Sealtainn means Shetland, not "Shetland Islands" as written, that would be something like Oileáin Sealtainn - I'm guessing if we're talking plural Islands, the plural genitive will be the same as the singular nominative ("Sealtainn"), but that needs more work. 92.236.36.106 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

But the Shetlands were part of the country when Gaelic was the main language of the nation. So there is logic in using the name. Surely in administration in the days when gaelic dominated the nation of Scotland it would have been referred to by such a name. So it would have been a pArt of it's history. It seems an anti gaelic view to go out of your way to remove the gaelic named for the island, just because it was never the dominant langague of the people, it was still relvant to the history of the country and the island region.

The template is clearly broken - I have left a note at the talk page suggesting the Gaelic speakers section be removed if it can't be fixed. Whilst there would have been a Celtic speaking people in antiquity they probably did not speak Gaelic - but that does not mean that the Gaels do not have a name for the place. I fear that Norn is now zero too. I can't comment on the correct Gaelic version I'm afraid. Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  10:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Scots or Viking?
I have heard it said that the people of Shetland feel a closer affinity for their norse heritage than their Scots! Would this be a true reflection or is it somewhere in between?--Jack forbes (talk) 12:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC) People from shetland may think this was a dumb question, but it would be nice to get an answer--Jack forbes (talk) 00:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not from Shetland, but I don't think it is a dumb question, just one that's difficult to give a clear answer too. There is no question that Shetland is heavily influenced by Scandinavian culture but whether or not this results in a 'closer affinity' for the Norse is an essentially individual experience. Perhaps a little like asking whether Scots feel Scottish first and British second or the other way around. Du sood try asking at Shetlopedia Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  08:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC) Thanks Ben, I'll do that!--Jack forbes (talk) 10:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic influences do have a influence on people. But I suppose it would be like a black african regarding themselves as more african than British. And the influecne goes back 100s of years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.143.146 (talk) 22:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

SVG map
Several years ago I drew a fairly complete map of Shetland (Image:Wfm shetland map.svg) and an incomplete map of Orkney Image:Wfm orkney map.svg. Someone asked me for the SVG originals today, so I've uploaded both to Commons. I've no intention personally of doing anything further with either, but if anyone is looking for sources to draw maps of bits of the islands, perhaps these will help. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Serfdom
The idea that a form of serfdom existed anywhere within the British Isles into the 19th century seems such a startling one that I wondered if this was just a hoax (although coal miners in Scotland were serfs up until 1707). The external website cited here uses the term "near-serfdom". The concept of serfdom is itself open to interpretation. Further examination of this issue is needed by someone who knows more about the history of serfdom, or Shetland, or both. PatGallacher (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've attempted a fix for this. Unless I've missed something, it is a general statement about crofting and I've used "effectively serfs" as they clearly were not literally so. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

WP 0.7
Shetland appears on the List of Scottish island articles selected for Wikipedia 0.7. I'm doing a round of copy-editing and undertook 4 edits a little while ago whilst not logged in - apologies. Look out for more tweaking soon. Ben  Mac  Dui  19:49, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Motto
Should the phrase Með lögum skal land byggja be added to the article? It appears on the coat of arms. --BiT (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Definitely. I believe it is Shetland Islands Council's motto, but I'm struggling to find a citation for that. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

New map underway
Does anyone have a smaller map of the Shetland Islands? I'm afraid it's way too big. --webkid 23:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm in the process of drawing a detailed new map of the islands. I can add lots of villages, but finding room for the text labels for each village can be difficult (and can make the map ugly and useless at smaller sizes). So, I intend to add about 10 to 15 villages. Other than Lerwick, which villages are the most notable (and so worthy of mention). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:04, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * There's a list of villages in the Shetland Mainland article which could be useful. The Yell and Unst articles also list the islands' main settlemets.  I'd also add Symbister on Whalsay.

I think there should be a small thumbnail showing the UK, with Scotland highlighted, along with a thumbnail of a world map, kind of like the map for the UK.Pisharov (talk) 21:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

How much gold or silver really
"a fixed sum of 210 kg of gold or 2,310 kg of silver." the kilogram wasn't invented yet in 1468; what were the actual quantities named in the contract? --Random832 (contribs) 20:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the two treaties it was 50,000 florins of the Rhine for Orkney and 8,000 florins of the Rhine for Shetland. These 58,000 florins of the Rhine is presumable where the "fixed sum of 210 kg of gold or 2,310 kg of silver" is derived from. The price of 210 kg of gold is, as I write, roughly $6.7 million US. -- Nidator T / C 12:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Islands of Scotland vs. Category:Shetland Islands
Category:Shetland Islands is itself a category within Category:Islands of Scotland. — Robert Greer (talk) 04:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * See Categorization, which says "In addition, the article should not be excluded from any category on the grounds that its eponymous category is a subcategory of that category, as the eponymous category is likely to be a distinguished subcategory (see the duplicate categorization rule above).". So this article should be in Category:Islands of Scotland as well. --Vclaw (talk) 01:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Inse Catt
I have restored the Old Irish name for Shetland. This is not for political, Gaelic agenda humping reasons but is done purely for historical and toponymical reasons. I'm astonished it had been removed in the first place. I've provided a reference for the claim about the pre-Norse name. Lianachan (talk) 02:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Good - so we have a reference. However the subsequent statement "The Cat tribe also occupied parts of the northern Scottish mainland - they can be found in the name of Caithness, and in the Gaelic name for Sutherland (Cataibh, meaning "among the Cats")." states that there is a correspondence between the Old Irish name for Shetland and the existence of the "Province of Cait or Cat" further south. This is uncited and not mentioned here, for example, so far as I can see. Ben   Mac  Dui  20:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No. Check the reference I gave, as it applies to both the Old Irish name for Shetland and the Caithness/Sutherland names.  They are specifically mentioned, and discussed, in common with the (Cat containing) names of many smaller areas of Sutherland (mostly close to the border with Caithness).  There is nothing in anything I said in the Shetland article about the "Province of Cait", as I am purely talking about (and using references for) toponymy. The link you provided above is not the same as the reference I provided. Lianachan (talk) 20:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The are two issues here. Firstly, whilst I have no reason to dispute the Old Irish name, the claim cannot possibly be that it is the only pre-Norse name. There would have been a Pictish name at the very least, and who knows what before that. It is presumably the pre-Norse Gaelic name. Secondly, I don't have copy of your reference. If it specifically states that the "Cat tribe" occupied Sutherland, Caithness and Shetland (although not for some reason Orkney) then the ref can be moved to the end of the para (it will need a page number if this article is ever to make GA). If the reference doesn't say that, then one needs to be found as the quick search I did (Gutenberg above) suggests that this is not the case. Ben   Mac  Dui  21:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Right. The things I have said in the article are all explicitly stated in the source I provided. The source, by the way, is regarded as pretty much the bible of Scottish toponymy.  I'm not sure if you think I'm just making it all up or what, so, from page 30 of the edition I have:


 * Coupled with Inse Orc in early Irish literature we find Inse Catt, "the Isles of Cats", a tribal name analogous to the Irish Cat-raige. Examination of the passages in which Inse Catt occurs proves that here we have the pre-Norse name of the Shetlands. At some point antecedent to the Norse invasion this tribe of Cats had occupied part of the mainland, for the Norsemen called the north-eastern extremity of our island Katanes, Cat-cape, now Caithness.  The Cats held more than Caithness: they extended well into Sutherland.


 * There then follows a discussion on the place name evidence relating to parts of Sutherland that contain Cat references (as well as Duke and Earl titles), which I'm sure I don't have to relate here. What I have done is add an old name for Shetland, and added a tiny snippet of relevant (interesting?) information.  I have provided an excellent, and scholary, source for all of the statements I've made.  I don't see the problem.  Are all claims and references on Wikipedia treated with this degree of suspicion and scruitiny?  It's highly discouraging, to put it extremely mildly. Lianachan (talk) 23:05, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Bit of a rush here, so a few quick points. Firstly, if you are still sore about the original removal, apologies. I was going through the whole article removing lots of uncited and dubious material per Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scottish Islands. (A dispiriting task I'm afraid). I had never heard of Inse Catt, it was uncited, so out it went. Secondly, your input is much appreciated and I am not trying to discourage you in any way. The fact is that whilst many claims are made on Wikipedia, they should all be open to scrutiny. Ideally this would be the norm rather than the exception.
 * Re the specifics, all I can do is repeat what I said above in a different way. Unless you think that Gaelic was the first language ever spoken in the North Atlantic, I believe the text should read:
 * "This is considered to represent the pre-Norse Gaelic name for the islands."
 * Secondly, if you are convinced form the text provided that an entity called the "Cat Tribe" or similar once occupied Shetland, Caithness and Sutherland (and I am not disputing the latter two at all), then reference [21] can simply be moved to the end of the sentence that concludes "meaning "among the Cats")."
 * If you do this latter, and I don't think this is true then its up to me to find a better source(s) to show otherwise.
 * If you don't do this latter, then anyone is at liberty to remove the sentence as uncited per WP:V.
 * Them's the rules, and hopefully they will help us all to improve our communication and editing skills. All the best, Ben   Mac  Dui


 * I've moved the reference to the end of the sentence, as you suggest. I've not edited the text, though.  I can't say I consider it important what I, or you, think though - the claim is well referenced, and is accepted in academia. I wouldn't say that Gaelic was the first language ever spoken in Shetland, but I'm not claiming that, and this isn't the place for original research after all.  What I have put in is what the handbook of Scottish toponymy has to say about Inse Catt.  Until better guidebooks are written, I think it should stay.  But, well, it's Wikipedia, isn't it. Lianachan (talk) 12:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * An afterthought - I'm not sore about the original removal, by the way, but I'm quite disappointed by the ensuing debate. When I see something I've never heard of in Wikipedia, and if it's something I have an interest in, then it prompts me to go and try to find out about it somewhere proper.  I don't understand the "I've never heard of it so it must be bollocks" mentality that seems to rot this place. Lianachan (talk) 12:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable residents / Shetlanders section
I notice that the "Notable Shetlanders" section has been changed to "Notable residents". This is not accurate since the majority of the people listed do not live in Shetland (or have passed away). Should there be two sections? Or a more accurate title? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stumpfoot (talk • contribs) 13:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Well spotted. It seems to have been done to facilitate the inclusion of that fine fellow Tom Morton. I can't think of any reason not have both headings, but I am afraid I am not familiar enough with the personalities to be sure who should be where. If you are, go for it. Ben  Mac  Dui  17:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I've just noticed that this entire section was removed in 2009. Shouldn't it be brought back, or at least partially with citations if they were lacking before? Jaffachief (talk) 16:19, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Mr. Hill and Shetland's Independence Movement
Ben MacDui, you should note that my text is just an addendum to what was already in the article. I understand you have a problem with accepting any new activities in Shetland's Independent Movement being mentioned on the Shetland page. I have now removed all mention of Mr. Hill, and the "Uncited speculation" quote "As in Orkney, those devoted to uphold the links with Norway, are often also vigorously in favour of a more independent Shetland"  unqoute - even though this is common knowledge. I hope you can accept the new version, as I am sure also the English Wikipedia could benefit from being up-to-date and accurate. Wikarth (talk) 07:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with updating Wikipedia with relevant material from Reliable sources - but this is neither. Firstly you are not providing any citations - although they could probably be found. The larger problem is however that there is no indication that Mr Hill's publicity stunts, whilst they are relevant to his own article and possibly the associated Forvik micronation one, are one of the most significant issues affecting "Shetland today" as the short section is called. The whole article is rather weak and one day when it is improved this section would be devoted to a short history of post-WW2 Shetland, in which Mr Hill would be unlikely to figure. Your interest in the subject is welcome, but it needs to be directed to the appropriate place. When Shetland Islands Council start taking Mr Hill's notions seriously, they have a place in the article. Ben   Mac  Dui  08:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting. We will ask SIC what should be important enough to put in Wikipedia. As you are an admin, I rest my case. I understand your political views, and I understand that this is no democracy. Thank you for your time, Mr Mountain. Wikarth (talk) 09:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Some GAN to-dos
Although this article is pretty comprehensive it is weak on references in several places and it appears to have evolved rather than been designed. If it's ever to be a GA the following need attention:

Ben  Mac  Dui  17:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Etymology - probably make more sense earlier in the article
 * Geology - fails to appear
 * Prehistory - needs expansion
 * Timeline - probably removed or made into a separate article
 * Shetland today - either needs expansion or removal/merging
 * Culture - lacking a few key figures
 * Norse names - moved to a short "islands" section?
 * Churches - possibly expanded to include architecture
 * Flag - too long
 * Notable places and buildings - if they are that notable they should be in the text somewhere else
 * Flora - might need expanding a little
 * Climate - > might need template:Weather box. Needs referencing
 * Subdivisions - better in a cat
 * Economy - could do with some overview stats
 * Local politics - needs expanding a little
 * Images - several appear in random places
 * History citations and expand post-Hansa history
 * Lead - complete re-working

Needs a copy edit but otherwise GA ready. Bisy backson. Ben  Mac  Dui  10:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Images
I should note that especially in the history section there are stack-up issues with images on "standard" 1080p widescreen displays eg 1920 wide - probably just one too many images. I'll let someone else try to fix this.Oranjblud (talk) 01:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't replicate the problem - you might want to look at your thumbnail image size preferences? Ben   Mac  Dui  07:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Map
I'm surprised there's no map showing Shetland's position relative to both Scotland and Norway, given the history. 86.168.134.129 (talk) 15:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Decent point - although it might be as useful at Scandinavian Scotland as here. Can you suggest one - maybe from here? Ben  Mac  Dui  08:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * How about this one or this one? Hogweard (talk) 21:35, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done and thanks. Ben   Mac  Dui  09:05, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Section headers
I am not sure what logic User:Blairtummock is using but the distinctions between the periods of Norse, Scottish and UK rule are both useful as general historical markers and in this particular case the latter is a particularly important break with the past. It is fairly normal practice for Scottish island GAs and to the best of my recollection has never been queried before. If there is any credible logic for proposing a change it would be better to discuss it rather starting an unsolicited edit war. Ben  Mac  Dui  09:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Temp
The stated lowest recorded temperature in Shetland, 16 °F (-9 °C), sounds implausibly high. After all, this is at the same latitude as the southern end of the Greenland ice cap; and based on the absence of trees in the pictures of Shetland, the area arguably qualifies as tundra. London, an urban heat island, in the same climate zone but much farther south, has colder weather than that, in many winters. Even Brownsville, Texas, on the ocean and barely outside the tropics, has, according to the Wikipedia article on it, had it colder, 12 °F (-11 °C). Can a citrus-growing area plausibly have a colder lowest recorded temperature than a tundra region?--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 11:52, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My immediate reaction was to agree with you, given the latitude of the islands, however, the section also states "the climate all year round is moderate due to the influence of the surrounding seas", with a reference provided. The lowest temperature given also has a citation from the Shetland Islands Council (2005). This is consistent with the average temperatures in the template below (separately sourced), which are significantly higher. Until we can find a reference to a much lower temperature, from a reliable source, then we'll have to stick to that figure. -- Hazhk Talk to me 12:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand the idea of a moderated climate, but the difference in latitude between Shetland and Brownsville is huge, almost 40% of the distance from pole to equator. In terms of absolute latitude difference, this is equivalent to a place that's 20 °N versus 55 °N; there is no way the more northern of the two places would have a higher minimum recorded temperature (assuming both are on the sea or at least at low elevation). Also, in the case of Shetland, we have cold air from Greenland; this is much colder than the cold air from Canada that might affect Brownsville, and has a shorter distance to travel; the distance from Lerwick to Ittoqqortoormiit, Greenland is only 1490 km (see ), whereas the distance from Brownsville to Morden, Manitoba, very near the U.S. border, is 2584 km. Also, did you check the Shetland Islands Council (2005)? (Is it available online? there is no external link provided in the Wikipedia page.) Also, does the source explicitly state the 16 °F (-9 °C) to be the minimum recorder temperature, as opposed to the minimum temperature for a particular year? Is the climate record thorough?


 * Also, the template shows average daily minimum temperatures, which are 34 °F (1 °C) for the coldest months, only 18 °F (10 °C) warmer than aforementioned record minimum temperatures. Average annual minimum temperature will be considerably lower, and record minimum temperature will be lower still. This is a very narrow range of temperatures into which to fit average daily minimum (for the coldest month), average annual minimum, and absolute minimum temperatures.


 * Btw, Tórshavn lists an average January temperature that also may be implausibly high, 38.1 °F (3.4 °C), higher than Shetland's 37.5 °F (3 °C) (extrapolated as being midway between the stated 34 °F (1 °C) min and 41 °F (5 °C) max). Tórshavn is even farther north, at 62 °N, while Shetland is only 60 °N. Could someone please check the data for Tórshavn. (This may be hindered because Google Translate does not offer Faroese.)--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)