Talk:Shetland pony/Archive 1

The picture of the pony which I removed was not a good example of the breed. It seemed to be there just for the sake of having a picture. There are four other good photos on the page which represent the breed more than enough without this motley creature there too, shedding hair in a very unnatural way. (Nathweni 02:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC))

Wikiquette
I won't argue that the pony was ungroomed and not a great example, but it is really rude to remove the lead image from the intro without replacing it with something better. The least you could have done was to put a different photo in its place, it is typical for wikipedia articles to put at least one image at the beginning of the article. If you know how to remove a line, you can also cut and paste. And you can explain yourself with an edit summary. But, I went ahead and moved up an image, it's another fuzzy pony, but the other two pony pics have their own problems as well, one is horribly distorted and the other looks like it's at a 4-H show and has pretty poor grooming, plus is out of focus. At least the fuzzy one is appealing and well composed. None are great images, I wish there were better ones (if you want to surf through the gazillion cc-2.0 licensed images at Flickr, by the way, it would be job worth doing...). But anyway, it's just better form not to simply trash something out of an article without improving upon it. OK, end of rant. Montanabw (talk) 02:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikiquette Right Back at You
There really is no reason for you to start dealing out insults to people who are just trying to make wiki better. I bet that is your intention too and keep doing what ever you think makes it better but please allow others to do the same without nasty retribution. Looking at your long list of changes it seems that no one else really gets much of a say. All in all, make changes and let others do the same, oh and don’t be so horrible. Nathweni 01:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you really look at my long list of changes, you will find that the vast majority are reversions of vandalism or of "my pony suzie is the CUTEST PONY!" edits. I have over 500, mostly equine, articles on my watchlist and far too much of my time is taken up fixing assorted silly edits by the kids home from school -- thus I do not intend to insult people, I just get tired and a little sharp.  But, what we have here is just a difference in taste, you might like a show pony photo, others like a fuzzy pet pony photo.  More important, there is also a long history of that pony cart photo being placed into a number of articles where it didn't belong, having captions that were self-promotional, and so putting it next to "uses" to illustrate what shetland ponies can do was an act that settled things down for awhile, hence I'd prefer not to move it.  If you REALLY want to improve the article, may I humbly suggest you surf the cc-2.0 and public domain photos at Flickr.com and see if there isn't something even better out there. I've seen some cute images but haven't had the time to surf through them.  Montanabw (talk) 02:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I have looked at the history of the Shetland pony in harness image and the self promotional title which you mentioned was this, "A Shetland pony in harness at a carriage driving event in Australia" more informative, although I do admit unnecessary, than self promotional. As for putting it in places which it did not belong, well the 'uses' section for the 'mare' page seemed OK seeing as there were pictures of race horses also, why not a harness pony when there are race horses. Just because you put it upon yourself to 'save' the equine articles from kids, DOES NOT give you the right to insult me or anyone else. Again, please do what you want, make changes but LET OTHERS DO THE SAME, without having to fear a nasty message from you!

Perhaps you should get a horse of our own, or if you have one spend a bit of time with it, you might just get over your obsession with controlling equine wiki, horse might like it too. Nathweni 03:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Sooo, we aren't supposed to escalate the insults on wikipedia, are we?    Your obsession might simply be someone else's very enjoyable hobby.  So how about we not make inferences about the motives of others, eh?  And how about people do more actual WORK on wiki like find and upload more and better images, and not just rearrange images? Hmmm.  Maybe I WILL go off and find some better pony photos.  The day is still young, but can't ride in the dark, you know...  Montanabw (talk) 03:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Its a bit too late to think about insults, you did it in your first message Nathweni 06:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Pony pics
OK, putting work where my mouth is, here are some new images uploaded to Commons. IMHO, the existing article mostly seems to need a little better lead image. The historic image is nice to keep and the harness photo is about the only "action" shot of a pony that I can find anywhere in commons (lots of grazing fuzzball images there, mostly, most that aren't, also are not Shetlands) Not sure if any of these are an improvement, but here they go. Comment as needed. And it is difficult to find quality free images, there may be 200 cc-2.0 photos in Flickr tagged "pony." It now IS getting on in the evening... Montanabw (talk) 04:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree Nathweni the way you placed the photos looks much better than previously and when changed after. Hang in there wiki is for everyone. Bananas&#39;n&#39;Cream 05:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Bananas'n'Cream, I think so too. I wont be chased away and I will continue trying to make this page better. Nathweni 05:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What Bananas "n' Cream isn't mentioning is that this is either her picture or her pony. At least she is the one who uploaded it and put it into several articles in spite of wikipedia's prohibitions on self-promotion.  The point is, why not make the page BETTER?  To me, the cute little fuzzball Swiss pony IS a truly classic foundation shetland pony.  The harness image is the only action pony shot we have an is far more suitable to the "uses" section.  I'll leave it for now, but frankly, to me "making wikipedia better" means getting off your ass and finding images.  I added four to the gallery above, what have YOU done lately?  Montanabw (talk) 20:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If you look to the left of your 'better' photo then you will see the, very accurate, description of a Shetland pony, “Shetland ponies have heavy coats, short legs…”. Nice one Montanabw, your photo is a perfect example, well at least better than the carriage one…not. Im not silly, I could see that the carriage photo was uploaded by Bananas’n’Cream. Do you have something against this person? Is that the real reason why you cant stant to have this, very nice, photo as a lead. As I am happy with the carriage shetland as a lead I will strive to keep it there, unless someone, who isn't trying to control everything, puts another pic up. Nathweni 20:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, yes, and I wrote it. The American Shetland doesn't quite fit, phenotype does differ, that point is well taken, will tweak things accordingly.  Montanabw (talk) 03:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I only have a problem with people who put up images of their own horses on a bunch of different article pages when the photo isn't even all that good, solely to satisfy their own ego needs. But you know, I have better things to waste my time on than shetland ponies, and if you are putting up a distorted photo that was shot at the wrong angle and is not flattering to the horse, solely because you think **I** am trying to control everything, well, that is just very, very silly on your part, isn't it?  Isn't that also trying to "thenor else you truly know very little about either equine photography or horse conformation.  (Neither does Bananas'n" cream, for that matter) People generally don't consider it flattering to have a photo of their horse where the head is distorted too large and the legs too short.  But for now I will leave it.


 * What I will do is attempt to find a photo of a champion pony that some group of neutral judges deemed to be an ideal example of the "foundation" type (as opposed to the more refined American Shetland which, indeed, appears to be what the black pony is). IF you delete that one, then I will submit this whole silly discussion to arbitration because I am tired of your personal attacks.   Montanabw (talk) 17:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Good faith changes
Am making a good faith attempt to insert a more representative breed image. I have reveiwed about 200 assorted public domain and GDFL-cc-2.0 images in Flickr and dug deeper into commons, and these are the best that I could find. The new lead is a classic shetland in a correct show stance, clearly very well-groomed. You can do as you wish with interpretation of my motives, but I happen to share your desire to improve the article. Montanabw (talk) 20:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It was nothing personal initially from me,dear, you were the one who used the nasty comments first and how dare you threaten me with arbitration if I choose to change something, now thats controlling. I, from the start, just wanted to change the article so it wasnt misleading and you turned it into a war. The carriage pony was certainly a better representation of the breed than the shedding one and yet you didnt fuss to much when that was up but as soon as I changed it suddenly thought the carriage one was to bad to leave up. As a sign of my good intentions for the article, which I held all along, of course I wont change the photo, unless a better one comes along, as it is indeed a good photo. Now please run along, stop being nasty to people and give everyone a chance to make a contribution without your harassment. Nathweni 10:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh and just so as you know the pony you put up looks like a miniature shetland, not a classic one and its head is slightly to big. Dont fight me on this, I'm a shetland pony show judge.Nathweni 10:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Before I go, about the grey carriage pony you said "the head is distorted too large and the legs too short." (17:50, 26 September 2007) well as I said earlier and if you look closely you sholuld see, although admitedly a better pic for the article lead, that pony's legs are very short and as you said in another of your attacks about the grey which also occur in your photo "the head is as big as the butt". Have a nice life. Nathweni 11:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I am doing my best to extend an olive branch here. The harness photo isn't a problem because the pony itself has short legs, it's that the photo was taken at the wrong angle, from too high an angle, thus distorting the pony's legs to the point they look like stumps. Ditto for the head, the pony probably has a very pretty little head, but the photo was taken with a lens with too short a focal length and distorts the body so that the head appears larger than the hindquarters.  It's poor photography, that's the point I was trying to make.  For all I know, the pony itself is adorable, but the photo was taken with a wide angle lens and distorts it like a funhouse mirror.


 * Further, I took time from editing articles I really care about more to clean up this one, put in the infobox, surf at least a couple hundred images to find better quality ones, and really, what more can you ask? First off, all I initially did was agree with you that the shedding shetland wasn't a great photo, but ask (nicely I thought, but sometimes stuff in writing comes off differently than was intended) when you delete a lead image, you should replace it with something better.  Since then we have been off to the races.  Second, the classic pony now on the page is from Europe, where the short, fuzzy foundation type is more common.  I kind of wondered about that myself, but looked into it in several locations, (such as as [http://www.shetlandponystudbooksociety.co.uk/about_breed.html This site from the UK) and verified the phenotype.  You will note the images from the pony show in Belgium that I found on Flickr are of a similar type, and though small, they are taller than minis (though the line between a small shetland and a tall mini is a fine one).  I did earlier put in an American Shetland, which is a taller, more reined pony, which you also rejected, if you note your comments above.  The current lead image is identified as a shetland pony, and really, if you know so much about ponies, you must know that there is no such official breed as a "miniature shetland" in the United States; they call them "miniature horses."  In fact, even the mini registry within the Shetland Pony registry calls them "miniature horses." (As shown here: http://www.shetlandminiature.com/)


 * Now, I am tired of this and it isn't a "threat" to take this discussion to arbitration. It's a sincere statement that this apparently has become a dispute that cannot be resolved in good faith and may need outside intervention. I have already asked two admins to watchlist the article and respond in a neutral manner to any changes that may be inappropriate. I have also requested a third opinion via the official process.  Now, I am going to try and take the advice at Resolving disputes and disengage for a bit.  I cannot guarantee complete success, but perhaps it might be good advice for both sides.   Montanabw (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As someone who was simply polling 3O and saw the request I can only present what I am seeing. As far as the article goes I can see a fair amount of ownership on Montanabw's part.  Several edits, tweeks, multiple edits per day, etc.  Having said that I can see Nathweni overreacting to a bad response that has been apologized for many times.  In all I think the advice to step away for a few days and let it drop is best.  Padillah 17:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

My previous edit was going to be my last but one more to clear things up and then you won't see another response from me on this talk page. Firstly not all of us are Americans, miniature shetlands are very popular in show classes in my country. Secondly there was no actuall sorry from Montanabw as you might have suggested Padillah but if there was an indirect appology then I accept, Montanabw, and now can't wait to move on in my life. Once again Montanabw...have a nice life. Nathweni 22:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that I have been insulting at the level accused. However, I accept that my statements have been misconstrued as more harsh than they were intended. This sometimes happens with the written word. Also acknowledge that further surfing at Google indicates the UK's Shetland Pony Studbook Society has a miniature division that does use the term "Miniature Shetland," though other than height, the breed standard both words and images used on the site appear to be identical. Thus, Nathweni, you too have a nice life. For the same reasons. Montanabw (talk) 00:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)