Talk:Shiba Inu/Archive 1

Excited greeting
I've removed the following addition because in my experience it applies to many dogs of many breeds and is not, in fact, "an extraordinary personality trait of the Shiba":


 * One extraordinary personality trait of the Shiba is their intense greetings of their owner. Shibas have been known to 'scream' in delight, repeatedly in high pitched tones and then proceed to obtain the nearest item (usually a shoe) and run around the house with it. This burst of energy usually dissipates within minutes and the ever independent Shiba retreats to his/her special corner in the house for a nap.

Elf | Talk 03:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Horrible Shiba Picture
Can someone please change the horrible title picture of the Shiba Inu? If I saw it on the street I wouldn't think it was a Shiba at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.245.201.162 (talk • contribs).


 * Sheesh... done -- now using the image from ja:Shiba Inu, as found on Commons. Ben White 13:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Ben, your the best!

"Artlessness"
What exactly does "artlessness" imply? Lack of finesse, or what? Perhaps the article should elaborate on these "terms with subtle interpretations"? WolfieInu 14:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Added Wiktionary link ... does that answer your question? Idsfa 04:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The second wiktionary definition is a good one, but there really is a surprising amount of writing by judges and breeders in Japan about those "aesthetic ideals". Perhaps the translation "artlessness" could be replaced by "lack of artifice" or "free from artificiality" though. Ben White 10:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks... I'll opt for the first two definitions, I think  :) -- WolfieInu 19:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Christmas card use
I think that somewhere in this article there should be a topic on the shiba inus use on christmas cards. Anyone else agree? November 1 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.139.14.139 (talk) 01:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Photos
Isn't that third Shiba picture excessive? It ruins the page's formatting.


 * A much better question for an encyclopedia is whether the photo adds more information. It's not the greatest photo (being from the back side) but it does show a different coat color and a different angle on the tail, giving another view of the breed. Elf | Talk 19:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've trimmed the photo gallery section a little to try to just keep the more illustrative photos, but maybe some standing poses showing both sexes and some variety in colour would be best. Ben White 12:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed "Creamy white is a color not allowed by any major kennel club" to "Creamy white is a color penalized by most major kennel clubs in confirmation" for the simple fact that all kennel clubs that I am aware of would allow creams to participate in non-confirmation events. And the Canadian Kennel Club as of last year, had not penalized creams.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.216.213 (talk) 04:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

How do you post pictures? I have a picture of my red Shiba that really shows off the cream markings mentioned at the end of the description paragraph.

Meaning
The kanji that is used in "Shiba Inu"

are the kanji for: "gather" and "Dog"

A shiba inu is a gathering dog. (hunting) 69.215.155.4 (talk) 03:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * As with most japanese, there is more than one way to translate it.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 21:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

bias
This whole article reads like a bad translation mixed with healthy dollops of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.238.84.196 (talk) 09:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Puppy cam?
Should mention of the Shiba Inu Puppy Cam be included? With an average of at least 15,000 viewers a day, I'd say it's a pretty popular live video. Morhange (talk) 16:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

"Little Brushwood Dog"
I found the "Little Brushwood Dog" name to be a bit odd, but upon checking a few sites I did indeed find this name mentioned. Is there anyone who knows in what context this literal translation of the dog's name is used? CES 15:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

-As far as I understand, Shiba Inus are considered an ancient breed, therefore the old Japan meaning of 'shiba' should be used, not the newer one. As the old Japanese meaning of 'shiba' is 'little' or 'small' I think the literal translation is 'small dog of Japan'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poeticfantasy (talk • contribs) 21:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

--柴, the Kanji used in modern day Japan to write "shiba", typically means brushwood.--67.171.205.23 (talk) 20:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Links
Here they are in case anyone wants to use them for ref's but as is they're pretty much linkspam. Luminifer (talk) 05:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Shiba-Puppies.com - Living with (and loving) the misunderstood Shiba
 * The Misanthropic Shiba
 * Shiba Inu Tips
 * The Shiba Inu Home Page
 * The Shiba Inu Puppy Cam
 * shiba.nl
 * Shiba-Inu

Shooting for Good Article status.
It might be nice to get this to Good Article status, and beyond. The first step to that would be to take any possible OR statements and figure out whether or not they can be sourced, and where to do it. Several have already been done by someone (thanks for that BTW) and I have marked a few more. Another note of concern is the gallery, that might not fly well on GA, and the opinion majority on that has changed a couple times in the past so its something to look into. If it needs to be cut down or removed, it might be good to develop an attempt at consensus on what stays before we start pruning the gallery and integrating the choice images into the article. Like I said I'm not familiar on the most up to date policies regarding galleries, so it may be perfectly acceptable. This article may also need sections added to it to flesh out its encyclopedic value. If anyone has any input on that it would be great!-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 21:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I put in a bunch more of the references. Still trying to hunt down a good "Shiba Scream" reference, but with hundreds of hits on Google it is harder to find a good source.  It's darned near "common knowledge".  (And I can personally attest to it.  Razzafrazza original research rules ...)  As to the gallery, I'd rather no more than one example of each coloration or conformation feature, near where it is described, picking the image which best displays the standard. Idsfa 02:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I added another reference for the scream. As for pictures int he gallery, here's what I (keeping in mind this is all opinion) think we should be keeping and getting rid of.  First, I'd like to get away from anything with a leash or harness.  Unless the image shows something important that none of the others do I feel it distracts from the more encyclopedic nature of the article.  As a whole the gallery seems to me just a spot for users to upload and showcase pictures of their Shiba.  I can understand where that desire comes from, and heck I'd throw a picture or two of mine up here if I didn't know better, but we have to dig in somewhere.  these images I definitely think don't belong.


 * Image:MinaChew.jpg - Maybe its just the angle, but this doesn't seem like a very good example to describe the breed. It doesn't showcase the characteristics of a Shiba Inu, seems to me just a puppy shot instead of an encyclopedic image illustrating the traits of the dog.
 * Image:SakeVogue.jpg and Image:Raithe.jpg - I think we should pick one of these. The purpose of either would be to illustrate the cream/pinto colour which is already covered in another picture so two is redundant.  Its not like the coloration or markings change significantly with age.
 * Image:VegasOutside.JPG - As I mentioned earlier, the leash thing. Also, it doesn't really seem to illustrate anything that another image already present doesn't.
 * Image:Sumo_ondeck_July06.jpg, Image:Sly by Fohx.jpg, Image:DSC014015.JPG (this one says its red sesame but I see only red), and Image:Scoobie sideview3.gif all seem to just be puppy shots, of the same general coloring. I think we could do with just one of these.
 * -- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 15:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have also rated the article on the project scale, with comments here-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 15:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Would an audio or video sample of the scream be useful or wanted? Idsfa (talk) 01:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

pluralization
Since "Shiba Inu" is a Japanese word, it doesn't fallow English pluralization rules. The plural form of Shiba Inu is Shiba Inu the same goes for the words when used by themselves. Therefore I have changed "Shibas" to "Shiba" and "Inus" to "Inu" 69.215.155.4 (talk) 03:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source for this? The colloquial usage is "Shibas" and "Shiba Inus"  and it should stay that way unless it is definitively shown otherwise.--  Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 21:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, could we have some sort of site for this? I belong to 3 groups, and own one myself, and we always say "Shibas" as the plural. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.139.14.139 (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

 Hit Ctrl+F and type in japanese to find the section where it talks about japanese plurals.

Even if shiba inu had a plural, it would be with an "s." 69.215.155.4 (talk) 02:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * See Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Oda Mari (talk) 04:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I am a year and a half late to this conversation, but should this issue arise again: Shiba/Shiba Inu has undoubtedly entered the English language, so whatever the commonly used English plural is should be used here. This is standard Wikipedia policy. CES (talk) 02:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Obedience Training Section
Expanding on that a little, I'll shed a little light on it; I read on a Basset Hound psychology book, that part of the reason Bassets don't obey, is because they are extremely intelligent, in fact, not just among dogs, Basset Hounds are the smartest of all canines. Part of the reason they are so annoying, is their great intelligence; they KNOW, they are getting under your skin. They know how to "read" you. No joke, Bassets are real S.O.B.'s; with the Shina Inu, if obedience training is difficult, it is because of its intelligence. Dog psychologists have conclusively demonstrated, that some dog breeds don't obey because they truly believe themselves smarter than people.

"I'm a Basset Hound and I'm smarter than you; go to hell." I hate to say it, but that's what they're thinking. Canines of all breeds are notoriously hard to trap, especially the wolf, dingo, and fox. Wolves however are especially dangerous; as a mongol wolf hunter said once, they almost think like people. As a matter of fact there is a pack of coyote where I live that, whenever I feel stressed, whenever I feel fear, and anxious to leave, they begin to howl. They sense, they know, this area is being abandoned, and as I am the sole member of the "pack" that used to live here they are trying to get me to leave.

Jesus christ even the wildlife is wanting to throw me out....

That's just "hilarious." Haha.

Alright alright I'll stop it with the Rodney Dangerfield bit; the point I'm trying to make is that I think those creatures (canines) are much more intelligent than people give them credit for. I doubt, their intelligence reaches people levels, but, you give a creature half as smart as a human being (roughly) enhanced senses, and a sensitive nose and man, they can be really dangerous. Especially if they work in packs. I know this may sound far fetched, even ridiculous or stupid, but I truly, genuinely feel, those damned coyote are trying to get me to leave.

I do not believe, stories about wolf, fox, and dingo intelligence, are myths at all; I truly believe most canines are in fact, half as intelligent as people are and in fact smarter than dolphins. They may be even smart enough to HIDE the fact.

67.148.120.100 (talk) 07:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)stardingo747


 * And this is going to help the article how? Mokoniki | talk 11:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

price
How much should one expect to pay for a eight week old shiba? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.12.75 (talk) 18:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Well when I got my Shiba Inu she was a year old and cost $700 and the breeder sold puppies for $800 Canadian (Dirrtypittie (talk) 17:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC))

This may be well past the point of usefulness for the original person. But When I was looking to buy my Shiba, someone said you should never be afraid to pay too much. Sure you can buy a dog cheap, but that might come with some hidden "surprises" from poor breeding. In the long run, paying an extra $300 might save you more than you initially spent. That said, I paid $700 for my Shiba. But I have seen them priced anywhere between $1000 - $2000. It all depends on whether you want show quality, good breeding, etc. The best advice is to research the potential breeder, a good one will not be offended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PedanticSophist (talk • contribs) 05:55, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Role?
I was recently watching an AKC dog show and when they got to the Shiba-inu they mentioned that it was used to hunt bears. Now I know there is a breed of Japanese dog called the Hokkaido that could fight bears. It may be a mistake on the announcers part or it might not. Thought I'd discuss the subject before I add anything. So has anyone else heard this? If so, source? I'll be looking around myself. PedanticSophist (talk) 01:32, 7 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Probably not bears, that would be one of the bigger dogs. Perhaps they said Shika-inu? (Which would translate as 'deer-dog', ie a dog that hunts deer, more of a job description than a breed). -- B figura (talk) 02:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As for the role, see shiba inu. Akita Inu could fight bears too. There is no breed called Shika-Inu in Japan. Oda Mari (talk) 05:28, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I G-searched, looking for more information and found shiba sometimes are used to hunt for boars and bears. See and. But it sounds that is not their main role. Oda Mari (talk) 07:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think they may have been used to hunt bears and boar. The AKC website entry for them says this, "...the Shiba Inu was bred to hunt small wild game, boar and bear." Trying to find a second source to corroborate that, but I would think the AKC is a reliable source. PedanticSophist (talk) 05:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. JKC doesn't say they hunt boars and bears. See the G-translation. And this site too. As for Japanese dogs, I trust Japanese sources. Oda Mari (talk) 07:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Picture of Black and Tan Shiba Inu
This seems like the appropriate place to discuss what pictures belong on this page. Two pictures seem reasonable given the length of the article. The only consensus I have seen on the other page was that the image should be changed to a clearly improperly marked dog. This was probably due to bad information. I saw no consensus whatsoever in changing the image again. Let us discuss on here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tucker454 (talk • contribs) 04:30, April 1, 2011

Images of Shiba Inu
Note:This is the previous talk moved from the project talk page.

I'd like to request for comment on these two. I think the current image is not a good image for the article. Because the ears are too big, the hair in the ears is too thin, the eyes are too big and round, and the face is too thin for the standard. And the face of the dog reminds me of that of Chihuahua (dog). See also these images. ,, and. Which image do you think is appropriate for the article? Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 10:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Based on what you've said and also because of the lighting through the windows on the current image, I'd agree that it should swapped out. Miyagawa   (talk)  22:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Have to agree with the lighting in the current photo being bad. As for the dog however, the current photo is better. The head of the dog in the top photo is slightly thin for a shiba. But the color markings are much more accurate to the breed standard as described in the AKC. The dog below does not have clear deliniations between the black and tan or white, which is required. The side of the muzzle is not white, which is required. The inside of the ears is not white or cream which is required. A quick glance at the links you provided will show that the average marking is much closer to the dog that is currently in the article. Given that the dog on the bottom is improperly marked as described by AKC, I don't understand the desire to put that image on. Please take a look at this or this  and make a comparision of which dog is more representative. It is unfortunate that we do not know if the link provided as link 1 by Oda Mari is free use - these are the best photos that I have seen of a black and tan shiba inu, and one of those should probably be in place. Could anyone who spoke Japanese (Oda Mari) potentially ask the owners of those photos for use in wikipedia?   Would also like to add that most of the dog pages on Wikipedia are filled with images, 10-12 on an average page that I looked at. People check on Wikipedia for knowledge about dogs that they do not know, and photos are one of the best tools to convey information quickly. The labrador retriever page has 20 photos, the Shiba page has only three. I am confused on why there are not, or can not be, more images on the Shiba page? Tucker454 (talk) 07:32, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Shiba czarna.jpg First of all, I am just an editor at WP. Every editor is equal. Tucker454, please do not take this matter personally. I just thought the current image was not appropriate. As I wrote above, the biggest reason is the face. Even though the coloring is beautiful and correct, because of the ears and eyes, Akina does not have a typical shiba face and looks like a shiba mix. Not that I think the previous image is a very good one. It's a matter of comparison. I've been searching free images but couldn't find any. I missed another image at Commons. I think it is the best black-and-tan shiba image. What do you think? As for other dog pages, I don't know much. It seems to me the Labrador Retriever article has too many images, the article is larger than the shiba article though. Pointer (dog breed) uses three images and Irish Setter uses five. Thinking about the length, I think three or four images would be appropriate for shiba. But I'm not sure. You would get an apt answer at New contributors' help page or Help desk. Oda Mari (talk) 08:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The bottom image is ok, but it seems of a pretty poor quality - the photo, not the dog. But what we have to work with seems poorly marked dogs, or poor pictures. My personal favorite that I have seen was on the link that you provided, that was an awesomely colored dog with perfect proportions. The images were so professional in appearance though, that I would guess they are treasured property if not plainly copyrighted. As for the number of images, I think dogs (or any animal, human characteristic, etc) are a somewhat unique category. They are understood in a very visual way, unlike the concept of a mountain or a canyon or a house. Dogs are not primarily understood as the history of the breed, characteristics of the breed, or other things that you would generally use to describe an inanimate object - these are rather important to enthusiasts of the breed, but most enthusiasts seek out information in other areas, as the Wiki information on dogs is usually kind of low. My personal guess, and it is little more than that, is that when people search on Wiki for a dog, their primary goal is to see what the dog looks like. That is how people really understand animals. And on that line why people go to zoos to see animals in person rather than look up the genetic history of the Cheetah (which is actually very interesting if you are so inclined). Photos convey more information more quickly than a thousand words could ever do. The Schipperke article is a great example of an article that is full of information, but so low on pictures that it is painful. Anyone searching for a Schipperke is likely to leave Wiki and search for better information elsewhere. One of the best things about Wiki is the sheer volume of information that you can quickly access. Thinking about the customers (searchers) the most valuable articles are those which fully satisfy the average user's desire for information. Photos are more satisfying to the average user. I would say that 10-20 images is wholly appropriate for an article about dogs. For the people who are Shiba enthusiasts (I would guess you and I) that is overkill as we have already seen hundreds if not thousands of images of the breed - but for the person searching on Wiki about the animal for the first time visual information is what they are primarly looking for. Tucker454 (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Famous shibas?
From my browsing of other dog pages there sometimes is a list of famous dogs of that breed or historic examples. So this is part request/part addition; but I didn't want to add anything until there was a decent list or I got input from others. I know of one supposedly famous or noteworthy shiba-inu. There's a Japanese movie that came out in 2007 that is supposed to be based off a true story. The movie is called Mari and Three Puppies. It tells the story of shiba-inu that was adopted, had three puppies, and right afterwards was in the 2004 Chūetsu earthquake. The story goes that Mari found her owners, a little girl and her grandfather, trapped after the quake and unable to get them out led rescue workers to them. Unfortunately, the rescuers were unable to take Mari and her pups with them and left them behind. The movie goes into what happens between Mari's abandonment and the reuniting with her owner. The only information I have right now is what I've just written. As I'm bored right now I thought I'd at least get some groundwork put in in the off chance others know something.

Wikipedia article on the Mari movie: A Tale of Mari and Three Puppies

Here's the Rotten Tomatoes entry for the video: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/a-tale-of-mari-and-three-puppies/

And the official site: http://mari-movie.jp/ PedanticSophist (talk) 05:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * She is a Shiba mix, the movie used a Shiba though. See her images at here. Click any of the contents with a word 写真集. There are lots of images of Mari and her puppies. And see these. The original ja page and the translation. Oda Mari (talk) 06:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The white or cream coloured Japanese Shiba Inu
The white or sometimes called cream Japanese Shiba Inu is not recognised in many countries of the world but it is recognised in the UK. The Kennel Club includes the colour white/cream in the breed standard for the Japanese Shiba Inu, therefore this colour is totally acceptable in the breed and judges should always be aware of this and must not disregard a dog of this colour purely because of the colour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.181.166 (talk) 15:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Shiba inu images
A user repeatedly added an image of the dog which seemed to me a substandard of the breed. I talked with the user on the project talk page that the image was not appropriate. Another user agreed with me. But that's the only one response. So I want more comments on the matter. Oda Mari (talk) 05:45, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * When I saw the image that's being referred to, I thought "Chihuahua" (and apparently I wasn't the only one). There's more to a Shiba than just its coloring, and I think the proposed replacement is more recognizable overall, so I'm in favor of the change. &mdash; anndelion  ( talk ) 05:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Can we get some clarification on which image is the one being objected to, and which is the one being suggested to be kept? Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WikiProject Japan ! 21:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * See the talk moved from Project talk above. The current image, image of Akina, is the one I object to. Compare with images at Commons too. The biggest problem is the face, namely the ears and eyes. Tucker454 added it first at here. I removed it. Then Tucker454 replaced the images at here. I replaced it with the third image because Tucker454 said "The bottom image is ok...". But he restored the first image. Tucker454 said the coloring of the second image was bad. So I found the third image and used it. I'm afraid the first image is the least appropriate among three. IMO, either the second or the third would be OK. Oda Mari (talk) 05:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oda Mari, would you mind terribly posting an image of a chihuahua. I think you may have seen different images of the breed than I have. Akina in no way looks like a chihuahua to someone remotely familiar with dogs of any sort or breed. And on the issue of "there is more to the breed than coloring" please post a link from a reputable source saying what the breed standards are. (I have stated these standards above this post if you don't have the time.) Color is directly addressed. I have seen no information anywhere that addressed the issue of the width of the head down to centimeters. Color, again, is directly addressed. See above. The original image did not meet AKC standards, and I would think this is what we should go by. Not "Oda Mari" standards. The original image was clearly not appropriate. As for the third image, this is an image that looks to have been snapped by a cellphone. Grainy and small. I am not stuck on the "Akina" image, but given published breed standards and the way the photo demonstrates these features, this is still the best picture. Oda Mari originally addressed this issue in the post above, please check it. The coloration (AKC standard) matches the current picture much better. There really is no question. As I have stated, the link you provided had a PERFECT example of tri-color shiba inu. That image was not free use, but it did match the "Akina" image nearly exactly but for a 2cm (or so) variation in head width. The image I removed showed quite a few clear faults that were not allowed, if you remember I talked with you about this already. Tucker454 (talk) 08:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Akina's general expression does remind me of a Chihuahua's -- Oda Mari has already stated why in the above section -- and I can't help but wonder if the coloration issue you're commenting on is partly a function of Akina's age in the photo, per its description. Generally, puppies have shorter fur, which will make their markings look more defined. I'm sure you know this.
 * As for "there's more to breed than coloring", isn't that obvious? AKC KC (UK) FCI (most clubs) Color is important enough but, frankly, it's silly to act as though that's all there is to a dog. &mdash; anndelion  ( talk ) 09:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Certainly there is more to a dog than colorings. But breed standards are clear, are they not? Are there "fuzzy" breed standards? If so, point me to them please. Given the context, I would like SHIBA INU breed specific standards. And what is this "expression" you speak about. Seriously, I am curious. Dogs have appearances, not "expressions". Not really up for debate. As I have stated previously, the first dog was a horrible example of a shiba that broke most if not all breed standards. Oda Mari previously agreed, although she has since forgotten apparently. BTW, there is more to "improving" an article than removing stuff - try being constructive. Thanks. Tucker454 (talk) 09:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also like to thank you for providing some sort of reason, but your example is far less likely to be recognized than the AKC page. Look there. The best and most valid sources will come from the most recognized and trusted sources. Last I checked that was AKC here in the USA. Given that this is an English page, that is a reasonable choice. Tucker454 (talk) 09:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Expression" is not a term I made up or invented. Still, if it's considered more proper, I'll use "facial features" instead, which encompasses the eyes, nose, muzzle, ears, etc. There are no "fuzzy" breed standards, but they generally apply to adult dogs, so it would make sense to take that into account. The puppy's markings are clearer because it has less hair.
 * I did link to the AKC. What "example" are you talking about? &mdash; anndelion  ( talk ) 10:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, you did not link to AKC. If you want to look, here it is: http://www.akc.org/breeds/shiba_inu/ I have no idea what you and your friend Oda Mari's motives are. But I would like the following discussion to relate to AKC if you can manage. "Expression" is a valid term, but relating to only to a "strong and confident gaze". After that, everything relates to appearance. Because I know you are Oda Mari's friend so I won't go into great detail - but here are several solid examples: #1) "The borderline between black and tan areas is clearly defined." Oda Mari's personal dog does not meet that standard by a longshot. #2) "Urajiro (cream to white ventral color) is required in the following areas on all coat colors: on the sides of the muzzle, on the cheeks, inside the ears, on the underjaw and upper throat inside of legs, on the abdomen, around the vent and the ventral side of the tail." - again, Oda Mari's dog does not meet these standards. Sorry. I am sorry her dog is not perfect, please move on. And so on. I know you want your dog to be the "one" but when he is massively failing absolute AKC breed standards that is a problem. Don't take it out on the "Akina" image. Thanks Tucker454 (talk) 10:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) I did link to the AKC, did you look? Along with the KC and FCI standards, it's right up there.
 * 2) I am not "friends" with Oda Mari. I've never spoken with him/her.
 * 3) I do not own a Shiba.
 * 4) You uploaded the Akina image to Commons. I saw you put in a username change request -- for courtesy I won't list the old username here, but it's there for anyone to see -- so it would seem that you may have a vested interest in this; the names match. See WP:COI. &mdash;  anndelion  ( talk ) 10:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not have vested interest. I have stated this many times. What I do have is a problem with Oda Mari (your friend or not, but I think so) pushing her personal and by standards inferior dog on the page. Don't combat me, combat the dog. Oda Mari's dog is not a good example. Whatever my name may or may not be, lets stick to the issue. THE DOGS!!!!! Is Oda Mari's dog a breed standard? NO!!!!! Not even close. If you feel the need to dispute that, PLEASE do so. But my user name has nothing to do with that. Obviously. Tucker454 (talk) 11:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no personal ties to Oda Mari. If you want to focus on the dogs, then please do so, and stop making comments directed at me personally.
 * Oda Mari did not upload either image to commons, so I don't see how you have proof that it's her dog. I do, however, have some form of proof that you uploaded the Akina image, which is, indeed, a possible conflict of interest. I'm not sure what else I can say. Do you want to seek some kind of dispute resolution? &mdash; anndelion  ( talk ) 11:54, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a "dispute resolution" is necessary. Just look at the dogs. It does not matter who uploaded them if they are better examples. Let's stick on that huh? Your fascination/focus on "who" uploaded the dogs seems rather silly to me when you don't want to discuss the dogs themselves to the slightest degree. Let use discuss the dogs. What are the "Akina" images flaws compared to the previous image flaws. Using AKC standards. By all means, let me know. Tucker454 (talk) 12:18, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Tucker454, sorry, but I do mind posting an image of a chihuahua. IMO, the Akina image is inappropriate simply because she doesn't look like Shiba inu. That was why I removed the image. I won't repeat the explanation again. As anndelion pointed out, pushing your own image could be COI. See WP:COI. Though it's only two editors, they agreed with me. No one agreed with you. What do you think about the fact? As far as I remember, this is the first thread I've ever shared with anndelion. Oda Mari (talk) 17:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This debate is absurd.


 * First of all, the dog in question (Akina) does not look at all like a Chihuahua. A comparison between this dog and the examples on the Chihuahua page should make that clear to anyone making a reasonable comparison. Perhaps the reason Akina appears (barely) like a Chihuahua is because of the fact that the photo is taken in line with the face, reducing the apparent muzzle length. In this regard the old image (the dog with the green tag) fares no better.


 * Frankly, the old image could also pass for another breed by someone's subjective standards. Personally, I have never seen a Chihuahua with coloring like that of the Akina picture, so I assume this comparison is being made solely on the basis of facial proportions. If this is the case, the old image could pass as an Alaskan Klee Kai, Greenland Dog, Canadian Eskimo Dog, or even a young Siberian Husky. The point is that it is obvious from even a little closer inspection that both of these dogs are Shiba Inus.


 * Given that both dogs are Shibas, lets ask ourselves what the point of this Wikipedia entry is. Is it to create a comprehensive article on Shiba Inus or to pander to the AKC's definition of "perfect shiba inu"? If there exists a Shiba Inu that falls outside the standard, I would argue that it is even MORE important to include this picture in the article, to familiarize readers with all variations. This article should focus on the reality of the breed, not a selective standard. As an extreme analogy it would be like having only pictures of Nazis (or famous physicists) in the German article, or only pictures of fat slobs (or movie stars) in the American article. The idea being that these would not be representative. We want the reality here, not your, the AKC's, or anyone else's "ideals."


 * Ok... This leaves one last major aspect in my opinion, and that is the simple quality of the photos in question. In this regard, neither photo is all that great. However, I believe the Akina image to be superior in showing the features of the breed. You can see the tail at least partially while not at all in the other photo. You can also see the dog's neck and underside more clearly due to the angle of the dog's head, and the angle the photo was taken at. You cannot see the neck nearly at all on the dog with the tags both because of the tags themselves and because the dog's head is in the way. Also, the tagged dog photo is slightly underexposed leading to an almost indistinguishable boundary between the dog and its shadow, leading to an ambiguous profile - something the Akina image does not suffer from. While the Akina image is overexposed and unfortunately does not have a good background, given the reasons stated I do believe it to be a superior choice in the encyclopedic sense.Triindiglo 03:04, 7 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Triindiglo (talk • contribs)
 * I won't speak for anyone else, but I think the dog looks a little bit like a Chihuahua -- in terms of the head -- because of the eyes and ears, both of which are quite large. Obviously, this is all subjective. &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   03:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks like someone else responded with is what is without doubt the most thought out and well spoken response yet. And Oda, here is an image of a Chiuahaua: [[file:Misterthemodel2.jpg|thumb|right|A tri color CHIHUAHUA]] given the continued statements that the Akina image looks like a chihuahua - I would say that is a silly comparison.

And, I guess to get back to the point - the image I originally removed, and you (Oda Mari) repeatedly replaced - was a horrible example of a Shiba Inu. While I will fully accept and acknowledge that there is more to a dog than coloration, a dog with coloration that is clearly and plainly disallowed by any and all accepted standards is by simple definition a bad example. There is no reason whatsoever that image belongs on here. The replacement picture you posted is a poor quality image that shows none of the markings that make a black and white or tri color Shiba. It is grainy, small and does not show what it needs to. This has been agreed upon. I do not understand the absolute objection to the "Akina" image. Is it not appropriate if a person has a better free use image to use it? I would imagine 95%+ of the free use images are uploaded for use by the uploader. Who are the users uploading images "just cause?" I am curious as to your grandstanding objection to this image. Given the THREE separate times you have chosen to object to this, I am curious to your motives. If the first time and second time were not enough, what are you wanting for? And assuming this THIRD time does not "meet your fancy" do you intend to start a FOURTH Q&A? Tucker454 (talk) 10:12, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Tucker454, I still think Akina in the image looks like chihuahua. What do you think of the image #6? As I wrote above, the Akina image is the worst choice of three. Her eyes looks like this one's. See these images. and. I could not find any Shiba with big ears and big eyes like Akina. Thinking about COI, your claim is not convincing at all. Oda Mari (talk) 08:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Triindiglo, I think #6 Chihuahua is lot like Akina. The muzzle length has nothing to do with the matter. The biggest issues are the ears and the eyes. If there's another big matter, it would be the cheek. Akina doesn't have full cheeks. I don't mistake the second image as the three breeds you mentioned. They have longer hair and bigger ears and they don't have that tri-coloring. It's clear to me that you do not understand the differences of the four breeds. I never say we should use images of show dog quality dogs. Probably because of the angle of the image, Akina doesn't look like Shiba at all. A variation?  No. The image does not represent Shiba. She looks like a different kind. That is why the image should not be included in the article. As I write above, I don't think the second image is a good one and I don't stick to the image. So I replaced the Akina image with the third image as Tucker454 said it was OK.
 * Oda Mari, the muzzle length has much to do with everything. This is addressed in the AKC. As for ear length, puppies have longer ears. This image has always been labeled as a puppy. When you say that the Akina image "looks nothing like a Shiba" you are making a fool of yourself. Akina looks much more like a shiba than any other dog. Given that she is a purebred Shiba that is not a surprise.

While you now admit that the second image is not appropriate, I would like to remind you that your first objection was in blatant support of this image. In fact, you replaced it several times. Until I explained each and every fault to you, one by one, you stood by that dog. When you realized you were wrong - your objective became the removal of the Akina image - as seen by your actions.

As for the COI - I had a better image and used it. That is not COI.

And if I can ask again - you have brought this up three times already, and not come to the conclusion you wanted yet. Assuming this time doesn't give you what you want - then what? I imagine a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th time unless little Oda gets her way? Tucker454 (talk) 09:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I still think the second image is better than the Akina image. Because the dog has a Japanese dog's face. As you repeatedly said the coloring was bad, I checked Commons images and found the third image. It is not now. I said more than a month ago that I didn't think the second image was a very good one. I said it was a matter of comparison. You said "As for ear length, puppies have longer ears. This image has always been labeled as a puppy". But the second image and #7 puppy's ears are small and I was not able to find any images of Shiba puppies with that long, big ears like Akina's via Google search. Why do you think I couldn't find any? I didn't criticize Akina. I said the image was inappropriate. What about the eyes? Akina's eyes are big and round and not deep set. Tucker454, please answer my question in my last comment. What do you think the linked dog's eyes above? What about cheeks? Akina in the image does not have full cheeks. Please answer these questions too. You are wrong about COI. You said "I had a better image and used it. That is not COI". But that is merely your personal opinion, as at least three editors think the Akina image is not a better image. If your image was not inappropriate, I wouldn't have removed the image in the first place. If it was not your image, this would be a content dispute. But the image was uploaded by you and you are pushing it in spite of other editors' objection. Which is definitely COI. Oda Mari (talk) 15:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems that people are trying to find the "perfect dog picture". I do not think that should be the case, because we should try to have a picture of a typical Shiba Inu, as that is what most people will see. Would you put the image of a supermodel in the article on Woman?
 * Additionally, there should only be one image in the "Temperament" section of the article since we are not trying to produce a gallery of all Shiba Inu images. Reaper Eternal (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with what you're saying, but small ears are a fairly basic breed trait. I see no benefit to deliberately including an image that is not recognizable as a Shiba -- their ears are very distinctive, and this dog has large, Shepherd-like ears (it's the other features that give the dog more of a Chihuahua-esque look).
 * Perhaps we need to contact others in the dog project -- with a neutral message -- because we're at a standstill and not getting anywhere. &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   17:33, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Butting in a little here, but from my POV the akina image is not a substandard shiba-inu. It is a puppy and therefore need not apply perfectly to the breed standard. The dog appears to be about 4-6 months old (as my own shiba looked similar, minus coloration differences, when he was that age). That said, I don't think the Akina image is appropriate as in implies that it is a representation of what a shiba-inu puppy looks like. There is a stark contrast in fur color for shiba-inu puppies. For the purposes of showing what a shiba puppy looks like I think image #7 shown in this talk page would serve this purpose to a greater degree. I also think we should remove it because we are doubling up showing the black and tan shiba. If we could get an image of a sesame shiba-inu that would also be preferred. We have a red shiba as the main image is only right because they are the stereotypical coloration, we have a cream shiba showing that while they exist they are not breed standards, and we have the black and tan shiba. So again, a sesame shiba would be nice to include on this article as Red, Black and Tan, and Sesame are the accepted breed standard colors.


 * As an aside, I think for further references to "breed standards" it might be advisable to also use the National Shiba Club of America, as they are recognized and referenced by the AKC. Their website is: http://www.shibas.org/ PedanticSophist (talk) 18:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is an image found through google that I'm not pushing forward for use, that would be an example of a sesame shiba inu. http://ravenhillshibas.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/sesame.29285652_std.jpg PedanticSophist (talk) 18:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)




 * We can use this one. What do you think? As for a puppy image, I agree with you. Oda Mari (talk) 07:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I like that one too. Incidentally, though this may be irrelevant now, there's another nice black and tan w/ urajiro pic on Commons, put up to the right as #9. (It's up for deletion but the overwhelming consensus so far is keep.) I'm actually not a fan of the current black and tan pic in the article -- the other one, not the one being debated -- since it's overexposed and cut-off. I think I like #9 more than the one I was previously in favor of -- if we want a representative for each of the three colors my vote for black and tan goes there :) &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   07:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think #9 is the best black and tan image. If I had known the image, I would have used it in the article. If it would be kept, we'd use it. Oda Mari (talk) 09:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * How is it now irrelevant? Has something occurred? #9 is a good picture of a good dog. Incidentally, it is just about what Akina looks like now, as a dog. Coloration very close other than the markings above the "bowtie". That image is certainly much, much better than either of the images that Oda was and has been pushing. It shows well, the distinctive marks of a black and tan - and that should be the point. Given the QUALITY of the picture, it exceeds that of the Akina image by a good amount. But since the original uploader has requested removal, that seems improper to use it in a main article (at least to me). Removal is unusual but as a collaborative project, respecting "team members" seems appropriate.

I uploaded the Akina image because I had it at my disposal and it was and is a better example of the breed standard than the previous picture and the image that Oda has been pushing since. #9 is good as well - better overall. I don't think there need to be two pictures, but Oda has heavily pushed the substandard and poor pictures she has found. I compromised by putting a better picture of a better dog in as well, she previously had removed the image many times. Other than the two people I would say have been instigators, the consensus has been that the Akina image represents a good dog, but I wholly agree that it is a poor picture (and that has been agreed upon as well).

If the vote goes for using #9, I say go for it. But it does seem questionable to me, given the uploader's objection. All seems pretty silly to me, I have a black and tan Shiba Inu sitting next to me right now. It is a better example of the coloration than the pictures available (on par with #9) and I could just take a better picture and post it. So could anyone else for that matter. My objection has been to a poor original dog, and then a poor original image.

Whatever comes of this, I have seen only a few points of major agreement. #1, the original image (the one Oda wanted first) was bad and #2) the image on the right of the article (Oda's second choice) is a poor image. The Akina image is a good one, and back to the original point, enough people have agreed on this point to end this argument in my opinion. If there is a BETTER image than the Akina image, use it. But the Akina image does not look like a Chihuahua, she is not "unrecognizable" as a member of the breed, and the image at least shows the main coloration of the breed, even if is a bad picture. This has degraded into nonsense. Tucker454 (talk) 09:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Posted while I was editing: "I think #9 is the best black and tan image. If I had known the image, I would have used it in the article. If it would be kept, we'd use it." - Oda.  Sorry, up to this point I didn't realize this was your article. But thanks for the clarification, how exactly do you find you article ownership? This might help to avoid confusion in the future. Tucker454 (talk) 10:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * When I said "irrelevant" I meant "in the eyes of PedanticSophist, Oda Mari, and anyone else who agrees that the second pic should be a sesame Shiba". That wasn't clear at all, hopefully it makes more sense now.
 * I don't think any consensus has been reached still. "Consensus" doesn't mean that whatever you think should be the case is, it means that either there's an overwhelming argument from one side or both parties reach some kind of compromise. Neither of those things has happened.
 * And no, not enough people have agreed with your point of view to just end the discussion. Three people (including Miyagawa from above) agree it's not a good image to use. Two people agree it should be used. One person thinks it's a fine dog but a sesame should be used. How is that "enough people agreeing with you"? Besides, these aren't supposed to be polls, but discussions instead. Many people giving input is vital (neutrality in numbers? guess you could argue this one), and there's no majority on either side, most importantly.
 * If the consensus is reached to use the Akina image I'm sure no one will be upset over it, and I hope if it swings the opposite way you'll take it in stride too, for the good of the "encyclopedia" and all... I have no personal ties to the image either way. I don't own a spitz! However, it just looks silly to keep saying "oh, enough people have agreed with me that we should end it right now". &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   14:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As I have said many times, I don't care if the Akina image is used or not. I admit/believe that it is a bad picture (but of a good dog). The consensus I feel has been reached is that the original image, and the second image that I replaced are worse. That is all. And if you look back to the beginning of this laborious and absurdly long discussion, you will remember THAT was the issue of discussion. Akina is not a "supermodel" of dogs. I am sure that you have read I have seen specific LINKED examples that are better. If they are free use, they should be used. Even you have agreed that images #1 and #2 are NOT good images. I am not pushing the Akina image, it is just a better image, so far. I would say that consensus has been reached on that. Even Oda Mari has stated that a better image was #9, AS HAVE I!!!

I think that because I uploaded this image, you feel I am using this as a show page for my image. That is not the case. It is just a better image, not the best. When a better one comes along, put it on for goodness sakes. But to the original question, the Akina image is a better image of a better dog. I realize that you are not for it, that is fine. But you can't be against image #1, #2, and #3 unless the compromise is to remove all images. So far, the Akina image is the better image. When a better image is uploaded I will support it, what I don't support is removing the Akina image out of someones spite. That is absurd. Had Oda Mari simply found a better image, and I am SURE there are some, this would never have been an issue at all. But instead she chose as a sole goal the removal of what several people feel is a better image. And among a pool of what basically everyone has said is poor images and poor dogs, the best so far. Tucker454 (talk) 08:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I've just posted the link to this debate up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs. It directly relates to the dog breed task force. &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   14:30, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I saw the alert on the Wiki Project dogs discussion page. For what it is worth, my opinion is that there are obviously many very good photos available for this page namely numbers 5, 7, 8 & 9 posted above. These are very good photos and clearly show breed type. It is hard to believe this argument is over 'one' picture (Tri colour Shiba Inu puppy). The photo in question may very well be a pure bred Shiba Inu, but either because of the "stance" of the puppy in the photo, or perhaps because it is a puppy, as it stands, the photo is somewhat sub-standard. Since this is not a place for a photo gallery, then it is important to show good quality photos. As for the argument about showing only supermodels in the page about women, the argument is flawed since human beings are not bred to a specific, clearly stated, standard. There is not the space nor the scope in every single dog breed wikipedia article for showing sub-standard images of the breeds as a "non-show dogs might look like this" category, or a "as your puppy grows up it may go through some gangly-looking stages" category, or even a "here are some photos of the breed which may not show a true representation of what the breed is bred to look like". That is my opinion for what it is worth. I'd like to see those photos #5, #7, #8, #9 placed on the page somewhere as an answer to this argument. In that way, one somewhat non-representative photo will seem a lot less meaningful. It is not bad, it is just that there are so many other much nicer photos at your disposal. Cheers, Keetanii (talk) 23:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * #9 is the only other black and tan/tricolor image that is available as free use known to this group of discussion, but it may not be for long as the uploader has requested removal. By all means, if you can point us to some better images of a black and tan please do so. That might end this nonsense. Again, please show us the better images. This is about finding the best image. But it has to be of a black and tan. A sesame is not a black and tan. Would you post an image of a red doberman to show a black one? No, that is nonsensical. Black and tan is an accepted coloration, and it should be on the page.Tucker454 (talk) 09:11, 13 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I think #9 is the best image by a landslide. #2 (the other sitting black and tan, slightly underexposed) is also decent, and I'm not a fan of the Akina image or the #3 overexposed image.
 * I think it's fair to include a black and tan and a sesame, which means I like #8 above as well. Like I said, the consensus on image #9 is keep right now, and it may not end up deleted. Still, this should of course wait until that discussion is finished if the decision is, indeed, to use it. CC is apparently an irrevocable license so it should be okay in the end.
 * Reply to your above post: this has never been about any kind of spite for me, and I hope I've made that clear. Why, exactly, would I feel that way over a Shiba puppy image? I did get annoyed that you kept telling me I was in cahoots with Oda Mari even after I denied it, but that doesn't mean I'm trying to get revenge -- total waste of time. It's an encyclopedia, so it's only logical that there will be occasional disputes over content. It has nothing to do with personal feelings towards you or your dog. &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   09:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I now realize that Anndelion, and I apologize for the former statements. With Oda Mari, I feel it has everything to do with spite. Your comments just seemed oddly timed together, but I again apologize for jumping to a conclusion that was false. Given the comments posted (not by you) on my talk page and such, it is a logical conclusion on my part. #9 is a much better image, I have already agreed with that. And I don't know how sesame dogs got in this discussion at all, but #8 definitely belongs in the article in my opinion. But that seems a different discussion - if it could even somehow be one. Has this now ballooned into "do sesame shibas exist?" LOL. #8 belongs, but is irrelevant to this discussion. Tucker454 (talk) 09:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Should have addressed this in the last post, but #2 shows many clear disqualifying faults. I have already listed them above, far, far, far above however many months ago. I agree with many on here that the image does not have the be the perfect example of a shiba, but listed breed standard faults are a problem. If it is appropriate to subjectively judge the 2cm over length of the ears in Akina image, it is certainly appropriate to call to question the improper ear color, fuzzy and unclear color differentiation, toe penciling, and lack of white side muzzle, etc (listed breed standards) on image #2. Is it not? Tucker454 (talk) 09:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I think discussing sesame shibas is completely relevant, as this talk category is "Shiba-inu images". I don't think anyone has questioned that sesame shiba-inus exist either, so I'm not sure why you're saying that. I'm just trying to steer the issue away from the Akina image, as it is controversial and in my opinion a moot issue. I think what Keetani says is absolutely right. We should be showing what the prototypical shiba-inus look like. We have a red shiba image; we have decent black and tan shiba image (only the image quality is lacking) that can potentially be replaced by a better image; but we're lacking a sesame shiba image and a good puppy image. What are the reasons that images #7, #8, and #9 can not be used instead of #1, #2, and #3? PedanticSophist (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * PedanticSophist, I agree with your suggestion to use #7, #8, and #9 instead of currently used #1 and #3. Any objection? Oda Mari (talk) 18:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Keetanii and the decision to use #8 and #9 in place of #1 and #3. The original photographer of #9 seems to have accepted that the license is irrevocable. I'm okay with #7 too, although I wonder if that wouldn't be pic overload. &mdash; anndelion    &#8251;   20:08, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It would be pic overload for the current state of the article. But if we can agree that it's usable, then maybe once the article grows some more it can be used. PedanticSophist (talk) 20:34, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sesame relevant or not to the title, it certainly is hardly related to the last 5000 words - making it irrelevant to the discussion if you have been reading at all. In any case, #9 is currently the better image for black and tan. As for the others, #8 or an equivlent should have been on there before anyway for sesame. #7, is a great picture, represented elsewhere already. Given the issues others have had with too many images on the page, this would be adding another yet. Tucker454 (talk) 03:43, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Image proposal
To centralize what seems to be the consensus right now, I'm putting up the following proposal; feel free to modify if it I got something wrong. My comments are in brackets: Bueno o no? :) &mdash; anndelion    &#10059;   07:19, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * File:Shiba Inu cream portrait.jpg will stay in the article [at its current location].
 * File:Akina for Wiki.JPG will be replaced with File:Shiba Inu in Lafayette, Indiana, USA.jpg [and moved down to avoid imbalance]. Note: the proposed replacement's deletion discussion has ended, and the consensus was keep.
 * File:Shiba czarna.jpg will be replaced with File:Shiba Inu 600.jpg [and moved down to avoid imbalance].
 * File:Fm shiba inu puppy.jpg may be included later when/if the article is long enough to merit another image.
 * Basically bueno. But how about image #10 for info box? I think the body line is more beautiful than the current 3-year old Shiba. As for white Shiba, how about #11? I also think the current image is a bit large and it would be better to resize it smaller if it stays in the article. As for the puppy image, I don't mind if it's excluded or included. But I think it's not bad to use it in the In popular culture section. Oda Mari (talk) 15:40, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on both counts. &mdash; anndelion    &#10059;   16:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with points above 2,3,4. I'd suggest swapping the picture in point 1 to picture #11. Picture 11 appears more representative of the breed (altough possibly the same dog). Since there are so many good pictures, would a gallery section be useful until the article is longer? Just a thought, feel free to object to the idea. Cheers, Keetanii (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Gallery would be plenty useful, but others have previously disagreed strongly. Personally, as animals are primarly understood visually I think if a gallery belongs anywhere it is in animal articles.Tucker454 (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, since this has ballooned into something silly, I would agree Keetanii that #11 is a better cream/white, but disagree on swapping the info box. The current image is better IMHO.Tucker454 (talk) 07:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a little silly, but we're reaching an agreement, which is worth something. Do you have any comment on the original proposal? I didn't list them numerically to imply that the Akina image would be removed first -- these updates would all happen at the same time, ideally. &mdash; anndelion    &#10059;   08:05, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Can't believe I managed to leave that part out. Sounds good to me, easier to see how it looks when it is on the page. I say go ahead and update it now. Tucker454 (talk) 20:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright, since everyone seems to agree, I've updated it -- the images don't correspond exactly to the sections they're part of, but the page looks more balanced now. &mdash; anndelion    &#10059;   21:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Balanced too. Keetanii (talk) 00:20, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks fine. Oda Mari (talk) 10:00, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I think there should be a shiba puppy on there somewhere, but for the time being I am worn out on this nonsense. Maybe we revisit it next month and add a gallery or something. For now though, it looks pretty good. Tucker454 (talk) 08:14, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Add in image number 7 for a puppy picture? Keetanii (talk) 12:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Great, I'll mark the RfC resolved. I'd be okay with a puppy picture later -- maybe the article can be expanded and there will be space for it without a gallery. &mdash; anndelion    &#10059;   13:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I was bold and tried adding the puppy image to the In popular culture section as the section deals mostly with puppies. If you think it's an excess, feel free to revert. Hope you don't mind my trial. And thank you for removing the tag. That was what I should have done. Oda Mari (talk) 15:48, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. As I said before, the puppy image is a tad bit too much, but it's not so bad that I'm not neutral on the subject, either way it works. I'm in favor of keeping the info box's image over #10 though. PedanticSophist (talk) 21:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

A little curious that the current tricolor Shiba is a virtual clone of the Akina image. I thought that was voted out as being inappropriate. Any explanation to that fact? Tucker454 (talk) 09:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Most insane part of this past debate? The image that is currently on the page, I do believe that it IS an image of my dog. Uploaded by someone else. LOL The worst part about Wikipedia is that you get some butthurt little wiki tyrants that cause a HUGE stir about nothing. Without involvement, the same dog ended up on the page? "Perhaps" this was a dog that looks exactly like my own, taken on a rug that looks exactly like one I own - the world is huge, so there is a possibility. Just funny to check this more than a year later and see my dog on here. LOL. Tucker454 (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Tucker, since the prior conversation is so old, could you please explain what it is you want changed in the article? Qwyrxian (talk) 13:24, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Qwyrxian, it would seem rational that the original image I posted was accurate and proper - and the image I used better showed the underside markings by quite a bit. But this can be decided by someone else, as editing this page can be a headache. This is the talk page, not the article itself. Given the massive amount of text above, I have just found the situation ironic. Tucker454 (talk) 08:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, so, if I understand you correctly, you just find something ironic. That's fine. If you don't have a specific change you want for the article, then I guess this is done, since a quick skim seems to indicate that there was a general consensus for the images that are now in the article. If I'm misunderstanding, my apologies; however, note that if you're trying to change the prior consensus, you'll need to demonstrate why it was wrong. If you need help starting some sort of dispute resolution process, please let me know--I'm certainly not involved in the actual content of the article, so I can help guide such a discussion. Qwyrxian (talk) 17:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Source #3 has a broken link
Just passing through and noticed this. Ummel (talk) 16:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've corrected. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Name -> Inu or inu?
Is the name of this dog "shiba inu" (all lowercase), "Shiba inu" (lowercase i) or "Shiba Inu" (word caps)? George8211 conversations 19:56, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2013
Recognition of the 'doge' meme in the popular culture section would be helpful.

88.104.243.104 (talk) 13:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. See the section immediately above this one for the discussion. Note that Doge (meme) is currently linked from the See also section. -- El Hef  ( Meep? ) 15:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect assumption that AKC has any official dog breed nicknames
I recently attempted to add the nicknames Shibe and Doge to the nickname list for this breed and the change was rejected due to the nicknames not being "AKC". I contacted the AKC and they responded that they do not have or manage an official list of breed nicknames.

My Query to the AKC: Hello, the Shiba Inu breed has two nicknames which have become prevalent - 'Shibe' and 'Doge'. I attempted to edit the Wikipedia article for Shiba Inu to include these two nicknames but a moderator informed me that Shibe and Doge are not official AKC nicknames for the Shiba Inu breed and he reverted my changes. I was wondering if those two nicknames could become official nicknames for the breed Shiba Inu. They are ubiquitously used throughout the internet and on television. Currently the nickname 'Shiba' is the only official nickname, and as you can see that is not very much different from 'Shibe' which is more widely used today. Please look into this and let me know if this can be changed! Thanks so much - John

Their Response: Hello John, We don't have a list of nicknames for the breeds that we register and we wouldn't have or make an official list of nicknames. Sigga AKC Customer Service Representative http://www.akc.org/ 919-233-9767 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbzlabrat (talk • contribs) 17:15, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Shibe' is only ever mentioned in connection with the internet fad by wholly unreliable sources like Know Your Meme, tumblr and reddit - it is not used to refer to the breed of dog which this article is about.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  17:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * This internet meme belongs to an internet subculture and it is embraced by the  members of this subculture, and members of a subculture often signal their membership through a distinctive and symbolic use of style, which includes for example specific type of styles, or preferred manner of dress, adornment, behavior, or way of life at a given time: fashion, gestures -  and memes. This doesn't mean that the AKC will agree or embrace it too. The American Kennel Club (AKC) is a registry of purebred dog pedigrees in the United States. Beyond maintaining its pedigree registry, this kennel club also promotes and sanctions events for purebred dogs. Hafspajen (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)



Doge
What is the reason for changing "dog" to "doge"? Merriam-Webster inu says that it is a dog. George8211 conversations 08:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi George8211, there is some sort of internet meme going on (I don't actually understand what that is but TKK explained on my talk page here). This is why the article keeps being protected - as soon as the protection is lifted the word 'dog' is constantly changed throughout the article to 'doge' or 'dogge', see the article history. As you know, the protection has just been lifted again..... By the way, personally I think Shiba Inu should be with initial caps as that is how it is given by the national kennel club registries.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems like just an internet joke/humor etc. What do you think of the recently added paragraph ? George8211 conversations 09:16, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been toying with the idea of removing it as it is unverified and it may also encourage further dog/doge/dogge changes. I can't see how something like that is likely to be reported in reliable sources either, so there's not really any chance sources are going to be forthcoming.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I found these., , and . As the addition is unsourced, I remove it as unsourced trivia. Oda Mari (talk) 09:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Oda Mari; I wholeheartedly agree with the revision - hopefully no one will try to insert the links you gave as sources as I certainly wouldn't count them as reliable/suitable verification.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This was re-added last night using the knowyourmeme site as a reference; I have just removed it as per the comments here. However, I have also left a note on the WP:RS noticeboard to ask for other comments - it has been indicated there previously that it is not a reliable source but things can change!  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  10:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

So we have all of these: Category:Internet memes and this article can't contain a reference about the meme it spawned, why is that?
 * I think that some coverage to the Doge internet meme should be added, I have found with just a quick internet search some notable news sources : ,,. They could be added as news coverage.Retartist (talk) 07:22, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose I think it's still a minor trivia and inappropriate for encyclopedia. Oda Mari (talk) 10:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I fully agree with Oda Mari; this is trivia, these are not especially 'main stream' coverage.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  10:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Dogge is just silly. I likee lake a lookee too –  on Wickedpedia - on the little doogie... eh? Hafspajen (talk) 19:21, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * What are you saying? I can't understand you.Retartist (talk) 23:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, that was humor. Hafspajen (talk) 21:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Please see my user page, it says I have no sense of humor.Retartist (talk) 23:06, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Saw that! Sorry. Hafspajen (talk) 00:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Approve, I think that at least a little bit of trivia should be added to the article. I don't understand why all of you are against a little bit of trivia on an internet meme. This is an encyclopedia after all, maybe future generations want to know what a "meme" was like. Hotelmason241 (talk) 20:11, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It appears the meme already has a page at Doge (meme), so I think at least some mention would be appropriate.  Konveyor   Belt  21:38, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Approve, I also think just some minor trivia should be added. Some people think just a little bit of trivia is going to suddenly make the entire website look childish and informal. As said before, the meme already has a page on it, so why not just throw in some trivia? It only has to be one sentence. "The Shiba Inu is also the subject of a popular meme, known as 'Doge', which consists of a Shiba Inu with various amounts of broken up English, similar to that of LOLCat speak" and done. I don't know about you guys, but it doesn't make sense to have a page all about it, but not a little bit of trivia on a related page.Killerwhale24680 (talk) 12:39 AM, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Personal opinions are irrelevant and trivia sections do not belong in Wikipedia. - M0rphzone (talk) 04:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This discussion was closed for a time - if you want to reopen it please start a new topic. Hafspajen (talk) 21:25, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Approve, I believe that given much of the Shiba Inu's popularity is due to the meme, then it should definitely get a mention, probably in an "in popular culture" section. Many other articles where the subjects have associated memes have such a section. It is a part of the history of the animal's popularity over the years, after all. Felixphew (talk) 04:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Please don't ignore all the discussion abowe and below, and leave hidden text alone. The meme is added to see also, it is quite enough. The article is protected to avoid adding doge meme, by the way. Hafspajen (talk) 20:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Shiba Inu, discussion started at Sagaciousphil talk page
Hello,

I do not understand why even a little bit of trivia can be added to the Shiba Inu page. Why not have a little fun once in a little while, eh? (And yes, I do understand what Wikipedia is, so try not to use that as an excuse. What if future generations want to research internet memes? That is my question.) Hotelmason241 (talk) 20:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm afraid that your message doesn't make any sense to me,, the consensus on the Shiba Inu talk page is clearly presently for it NOT to be included and certainly not with the knowyourmeme ref as it isn't considered a reliable source. Please don't re-add it until you have a majority change in consensus AND it is supported by a reliable source.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  20:37, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * How is KYM (know your meme) not reliable? Should I change the reference to Reddit/Tumblr/4chan/some other site? Define a "reliable" source in your eyes then. Otherwise, I say it belongs there. Hotelmason241 (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Please check through queries raised on the reliable source notice board where you will find that website (KYM) discussed and it was stated that unless it is verified by the site's editorial staff it is not considered reliable - so it is not "in my eyes" but in the "eyes" of Wikipedia. The other sources you mention are equally not considered WP:RS. By the way, I would appreciate a tone down of the "attitude" which is being conveyed in your comments - although I appreciate it is difficult when typing into a computer, your comments do not come across well.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  20:51, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comments like this one are also not really in the spirit of collaborative editing.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  21:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Listen here, this is no good. You can't go on like this. I really think that this by now stuff for Dispute resolution noticeboard. And I think that this discussion does not belong here, but on the talkpage of the article. It should be moved there, so it can be wiewed there in context. Hafspajen (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hafspajen, thank you for always being such a sensible, calm voice of reason. My talk page is supposed to be a friendly, pleasant place so I agree further discussion should be at the article talk page.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  21:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * And as far as I am concerned a doge is a Doge, chief of state in Venice. See also Doge of Venice. And here, on the meme itself  it states clearly that the language is "improper english". And the only place this should be added is to the article   Internet meme  and not the dog breed article. Hafspajen (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Again just pointing out that the Doge meme already has a page. I think an Rfc would be appropriate here.  Konveyor   Belt  17:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * RIGHT: But if that meme has his own page, just put it in the see also. And I do think you should fill in for a Dispute resolution noticeboard thread. Hafspajen (talk) 11:13, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * And THIS IS from this meme, showing Cruelty to animals, hanging a dog and how can ANYONE think this is funny, I can't understand. This is NOT funny, this is SICK, and it should be forbidden.  Hafspajen (talk) 01:33, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Concensus on inclusion or otherwise of Doge meme
Leaving aside the convoluted discussion above, I am establishing a new vote for/against the inclusion of the Doge meme in an "in popular culture" section. Please vote (with reasoning and signed!) below on whether or not we should include further mention of the meme. Once enough votes have been bladed to establish a consensus, the article can be amended if necessary. See my below vote for an example of how to vote. Felixphew (talk) 00:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Approve, I believe that given much of the Shiba Inu's current popularity is due to the meme, then it should definitely get a mention, probably in an "in popular culture" section. As the meme has its own article the mention would only have to be short (1-2 sentences given the current size of the article). Many other articles where the subjects have associated memes have such a section. It will become a part of the history of the animal's popularity over the years, after all. Felixphew (talk) 00:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No. You can believe all you want, but it's a bunch of trivia and there is no sourcing available to claim that the dog is popular because of the meme. It's sad that we even have history on memes such as that. At best you can get a "See also" link--oh, wait, that's already in there. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The link under "See also" is more than adequate should readers wish to know more about this trivia. There are insufficient reliable sources to constitute including any further detail. The claim it has increased the breed's popularity appears to be pure speculation.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  08:50, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The link under "See also" is quite enough. And, you left on my talkpage a very strange message disguised as Wikilove, but that was NOT wikilove, it was mocking. And Felixphew; you removed here one of my edits from this talk page. Felixphew; you  also  put that mocking the user diguised as a barnstar star on my talkpage, but that was not enough, you put that  on MY USERPAGE: here. This is sneaky because you think it is Wikilove but it is mockig, only very well diguised. This is actually near not only mocking but close to vandalism. You are NOT SUPPOSED TO edit other peoples userpage. People used to be blocked for vandalizing userpages.  Hafspajen (talk) 08:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - as others have said, we've got a link already. Until we can show using reliable sources (plural) that this is true, it doesn't belong in the article. Dougweller (talk) 10:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment As per notable sources please read my comment in the previous dispute Retartist (talk) 23:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose – Strong oppose. There is no case for the inclusion here. — &#124; Gareth Griffith-Jones &#124; The Welsh Buzzard&#124; — 12:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose per other users above. It doesn't belong to popular culture. It's a mere trivia. Oda Mari (talk) 15:49, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The dog breed may bear mentioning in the meme article, but not the meme in the dog breed article, it falls under WP:TRIVIA. This is blog-type material and not encyclopedic. - Ahunt (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Approve Much of the vandalism on this article is due to this meme. Although the "in popular culture" section has been removed so there is no real place to put it. If a mention in the article was added to Doge (meme) it might reduce some of the vandalism Retartist (talk) 23:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - I am not sure avoiding vandalism is a good reason to include text in an article. - Ahunt (talk) 23:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

This discussion will remain open, however consensus at the the time of this writing is that it should not be included. So please do not ask for it to be included! All edits to include the Doge meme should be immediately rolled back and the editor should be given a link to this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felixphew (talk • contribs) 21:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)