Talk:Shiksa/Archive 1

Plural?
Is there a standard plural form for Shiksa? I see two or three different spellings in the article text. Durova 01:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the preferred spelling should be Shiksos, along the lines of the Hebrew feminine plural suffix "-ot" which is usually pronounced "-os" in Yiddish (afaik) --Davecampbell 23:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Gefilte fever
A corollary to the phenomenon discussed herein, a fetishization of Jewish men/women by goyishe women/men. The term itself was used by a goyishe regular on a now-defunct Bay Area BBS network, referring to his attraction to Jewish women. Several shiksos I've met in different contexts have similarly described their attraction to Jewish men. And I recall a movie involving a group of Italian-American men, one of whom is completely entranced with Ellen Barkin's character because she's "so Jewish" which is understood to be synonymous with "sexy". (This is entirely WP:OR but with a large and diverse enough sample size to make me think it's fairly widespread. The term itself gets only one Google hit, on someone's MySpace page.) --Davecampbell 00:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Shiksa!=Чикса
actually, "чикса" in russian, have nothing to do with shiksa. it's a new word from english "chicks" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.109.170.190 (talk) 20:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

"satirically"?
Sounds like a Jewish effort to cover up cultural racism if you ask me.

Look up the world 'kike'. I doubt it speaks of that word as used 'satirically'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.147.159 (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * My thoughts exactly. Next we'll have the term "nigger" described as a "playful tease".

-G

Protected until such time as all parties involved in edit war agree to a consensus version of the article.
I have protected this article as it is part of a multiparty edit war. At such time as all parties currently involved in the edit war, as well as any further people who happen along, have agreed to a consensus version of this article agreeable to enough to establish a consensus, the protection will be removed, but not before. Feel free to discuss the matter here, and come to an agreement. -- Jayron 32 03:07, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

shiksa girls vs protestant girls
I think that there is a deeper issue here. I went to Catholic Schools for twelve years, and for us (Catholic boys), protestant girls were considered to be loose and therefore, somehow, incredibly attractive. There were rumors that they DID THINGS that our good Catholic girls would never do. This seems to fit in with the "shiksa" fetish discussed in the article that Jewish men are reputed to have for Gentile girls. But the deeper question is why debasement is seen as sexually attractive. Is it merely because, as young males, we were not getting any sex and so the notion of a loose female stuck in our minds as being the image of sexual appeal? Or is there some deeper imagery at work here? What I am really getting at is attempting to get behind the images that hold sexual appeal for us and figure out how, why, and when this is happening. Perhaps if we could do this we could get back to a more primal eros and not be a collection of programmed reactions focussing on inappropriate imagery.

71.205.9.245 03:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * EVERYBODY is attracted to "inappropriate" matches - not for the rest of our lives, but for diversion before marrying the appropriate one. "Shiksas are for practice". A Protestant girl you perceive to be slutty isn't who you want to marry, she's who you want to get you off while you're still in highschool because your Catholic dreamgirl won't until you marry her. Which you will. Because it would break your everloving mother's heart otherwise. Plus you don't want a slut for a wife. Signed, 68.121.163.146 04:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a more specific Catholic fetishism from the late 60s on. Catholic girls aren't allowed to take the pill. That means they won't have sex with anyone unless they'd consider marrying him. But Protestant girls can sleep with anyone they fancy, and therefore they do.


 * There's also a reverse version, that every non-Catholic boy in a city with a lot of Catholics knows about: Because Catholic girls can't use birth control, they'll "do other things" (oral, maybe even anal) instead.


 * But really, these are both just rationalizations for an ancient, universal fetish. Why do you think so many nations for as far back as recorded history goes have made rules against sleeping with foreign girls? Because the boys always wanted to sleep with foreign girls. (And of course the rules just make them more tantalizing.) --50.0.192.101 (talk) 06:31, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Children
As others have noted in the comments, "shiksa" is much more likely to be used, and also much more likely to be pejorative, when it's applied to a gentile girl who's dating a Jew. And, as many women have noticed, the derogatory force behind the word gets cranked up as the relationship gets more serious and the family gets to know her.

The heart of the matter is the fact that, while home, family name, and legacy are patriarchal, religion and ethnic nationality are matriarchal. A Jewish girl can marry anyone she wants and have Jewish kids; a Jewish boy who marries a gentile has gentile kids.

If you compare Jews to other "wandering nations", like many of the communities labeled "gypsies", the taboo is usually weaker, and gender-flipped: a gypsy son who brings home an outsider girl is fine; a gypsy daughter who runs off with an outsider boy is a tragedy. Here, it's easy to see the simple traditional patriarchal assumptions: the son "brings home" and the daughter "runs off", because families live with the father. It's the matriarchal passing of Judaism that makes things different for Jews. If all of your sons marry shiksas, your family is no longer Jewish.

Of course many Jewish subgroups accept conversion, but you certainly can't assume that any woman is going to be willing to change religion just because of who she's fallen in love with, so that doesn't really help.

Anyway, this gets to the heart of why shiksa is (at least sometimes) a derogatory and offensive word. And if the article is going to argue about whether the word is derogatory or offensive, I think it needs to cover this issue. --50.0.192.101 (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Pejorative
The word may be spoken as a pejorative by Jews who have prejudice against gentiles, but gentiles don't feel oppressed, and don't hear the word as a pejorative. This is more true than what the article starts with.

"The term shiksa, despite its etymology, is the only derogatory term that is widely used and accepted in the United States." I think this is pretty clearly untrue. "Bitch" is a derogatory term, and unlike shiksa, most people are actually aware of it.--DBlask 00:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"I have had the term applied to me by Jewish mothers and Jewish sisters. I feel it is hurtful, angry, resentful, inappropriate, prejudice and racist. Pejorative does not even begin to cover how bad the word is. I may not feel oppressed, but I do feel offended and angry. There is a prejudice against the Jewish sons dating and marrying outside the tribe and this expressed by using the insult 'Shiksa' in an angry fashion. The PC Police have not gotten around to banning this word yet. It is inappropriate and should not be used. The person using the word knows it is inappropriate, mean and hateful. They have no business saying it. There is no excuse for bad behavior. So, what if the target of your wrath is unaware of the meaning of the word. Is it OK if I curse you out in Swahili just because you do not understand what I am saying? Does lack of understanding make bad, unacceptable, rude, impolite, improper behavior suddenly acceptable? It shouldn't as that is flawed logic and irrational thinking." Bree25 (talk) 03:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree with Bree25. The term is not only prevalent in the USA, but also in South Africa. My mother was a "gentile" married to a Jew. My father's sisters would deliberately use the term shiksa, as an insult, with reference to my mother, behind her back, but within earshot, in the mistaken belief that she did not know what the word meant. No matter what arguments are brought to bear in an attempt to "make light" of it, the term is as offensive as calling a person of colour "nigger". It is reprehensible and has nothing to do with being "politically correct". Frankwm1 (talk) 21:07, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

There is no "sikus"
There is no word "sikus" in Polish. "Siksa" refers only to a young girl, there is no masculine equivalent of that word. eg. check: (Polish most respected language dictionary, message means "no definition found".

I recommend to delete appropriate part of the article. Bazyli1000 (talk) 16:16, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes there is Polish word 'sikuś'. Any person with the name pl:Bazyli should have learned it at the age of 2 or even earlier :-) Staszek Lem (talk) 21:40, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

-

Shiksa is always offensive, its essential meaning is whore, and since it is applied in a blanket manner to the women of a certain race or races it is a racist term of opprobrium. Certainly it is much nastier than, say, Yid or Jap, two words that are basically banned from modern polite conversation.

Protected edit request on 5 October 2016
Please replace the multi-item disambig hatnote with a simpler one:

or, even simpler,

I don't think a long list of meanings for a different word is warranted.

Staszek Lem (talk) 21:30, 5 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I support this request. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:05, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Shiksa is a Goy
I can't personally find anything on this, so I'm looking for help. Lenny Bruce said that there was a phrase "Shiksa is a Goy", meaning a non-Jewish woman was a "drunk". It goes with the article because it lends an explanation of the term's usage. Not that I fully trust Mr. Bruce, but he did talk a lot about language, and language and it's usage is central to Judaism (the topic's category). JoeHenzi (talk) 04:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you may be mis-remembering. I think that he said "Shikur as a Goy" which would mean "Drunk as a Gentile". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.208.61 (talk) 05:58, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Talmud
Does the Talmud say anything about this ? I have heard of offensive words in the Talmud, but I am not sure about the term Shiksa. ADM (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I feel like this conversation needs to include the fact that shiksa is not really widely known by those who are not familiar with jewish culture, aka pop culture, despite the fact that it appears there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.124.117.127 (talk) 05:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The bible 5.Mose tells something about goyim and shiksas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:6D:EF0C:8501:4DF4:CD02:4BC0:47AB (talk) 23:43, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

The word was unknown in Talmudic times, and you won't find this word in any book of Jewish law. I doubt the word could possibly be more than 200 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.208.61 (talk) 06:00, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

please
The article as it is, is is just ridiculous, please guys. "It has been observed by both comedians and more serious thinkers that such shiksas are often fetishized by Jewish men", should I conjure up the term 'weaselwords'? And why get into a discussion of 'jews as a race' right here? Have you never seen blonde jews before? Oyd11 19:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

If the word is derived from "sheketz", then it can be another word for "weasel". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.208.61 (talk) 06:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Offensive
The lede ends with the following paragraph:


 * Despite its etymology, the term shiksa is widely used and accepted in the United States, where it is often used in a humorous way. Nevertheless, the word is regarded as offensive by some.

Another editor changed the last sentence to:


 * Nevertheless, the word can be extremely offensive in certain contexts.

I reverted the edit, but I'd like to capture both thoughts. There are some people who feel that the word is an insult, no matter what the context. There are other people who might not be offended at being called a shiksa in some situations, but would find it offensive in other circumstances.

Is there an elegant way to summarize both attitudes toward the word? I struggled for a little while, and the best I could come up with was:


 * Nevertheless, some people consider the word to be offensive in every context, and many more consider it offensive in at least some circumstances.

That's a very unwieldy way of getting the point across. I'm open to suggestions. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 08:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * ok - how about: Shiksa refers to a Gentile woman in the overall context of being forbidden or taboo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.208.61 (talk) 06:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I tend not to think of words as having offense in of themselves, (an article on the word shouldn't be offensive, but being called a "shiksa" probably would be, if the target knew the meaning of the word and its history).

What stuck out to me is that the article doesn't make it clear that one should be very careful about using the word, despite its appearance in pop culture (which I think is only possible because most people think it just means "blonde gentile girl.") Historically, shiksa is a really nasty ethnic slur, and anyone reading the article needs to know that many Jews and Gentiles (assuming they know what it means) would consider it highly offensive.

I'll try another edit, and see how people like it.David A. Flory (talk) 06:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read my remark under the Pejorative paragraph. Frankwm1 (talk) 21:24, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

"shiksa is a really nasty ethnic slur" - Since when did "Goyish" become an ethnicity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.208.61 (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Why you think it became? Staszek Lem (talk) 02:24, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

N!gger isn't a clearly defined ethnicity, but you wouldn't call an african that if you were being polite.

Contradiction
In three paragraphs, the article says that the word shiksa:


 * is a pejorative (a belittling or disparaging word or expression)
 * is still regarded as offensive by some
 * could be derived from the Hebrew term sheketz, which means either "abomination", "detestable", "loathed" or "blemish," "insect", "subhuman" ("could be" is a weasel expression for "is")
 * is a derogatory term

Then the article says that the word shiksa is widely used and accepted.

Shiksa may be widely used, but it is an offensive term, and the article can't have it both ways: either it's "still regarded as offensive by some" or it's "widely used and accepted".

I would suggest that it may be widely used, but it's still an offensive word. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 04:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * An offensive word can become accepted. For example, nigga. --129.98.215.232 18:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Lots of offensive words are widely used and, yes, even accepted. --86.135.176.111 22:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay. I'll remove the banner, and try to edit the section to make it a little clearer. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 23:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, "shiksa" isn't used for Gentile girls and women generally, but those who date (or marry) Jewish boys and men. As a non-Jew who's dating a Jewish guy, I can testify to the fact that 1. The word is absolutely used in a way that is both pejorative and intended to be so, and 2. That I wasn't called a "shiksa" before I started dating my (Jewish) boyfriend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.76.141 (talk) 12:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the word is almost always used as a pejorative, and the lede says that: "used as a pejorative or mock-pejorative term for a Gentile (or non-Jewish) woman." The article doesn't capture the nuance that a shiksa is usually a non-Jewish woman who is dating a Jewish man, or whom a Jewish man wishes to date (or sleep with) — or at least that was its traditional usage. I'm not familiar enough with the majority of the recent cultural references to know whether the word has kept that connotation as it has become mainstream. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 18:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

As Jiddish derived from German, Schickse (schick - send, s(i)e - her) could have another meaning, simply: -send her(away). It sure wasn´t appropiate to hang around with non-jewish girls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.0.249 (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This etymology seems unlikely. In Yiddish a Schickse was a non-Jewish girl a Jewish man had sex with, but wouldn't consider marrying. Marrying a non-Jewish girl could lead to the son being disinherited in conservative Jewish families. Ontologix (talk) 07:49, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

In fact, the original word is the masculine gender, which in English would be spelled Shaygetz. Common usage for Shaygetz was for non-Jewish Gentiles, but not for every Gentile. It was used to refer to brutish, unpolished, uncultured men. A Gentile who did not deserve the pejorative would be called a Goy. A Shiksa would be called a Goye. As time went by, if you want to be hard on a non Jeiwsh girl, you'd use the term Shiksa. It would be used for someone dating a Jew, or for any other kind of young lady, to whom you didn't want to be kind. Sorry, I didn't sign it the first time around. Rafael

Please read my remark under the Pejorative paragraph. Frankwm1 (talk) 21:23, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

You ALMOST touched on the whole point, the true meaning of the word. The sheketz is all the things that you mentioned, literally, but in practical terms, it is the FORBIDDEN (taboo) thing. SO, too, it refers to a non-Jewish woman in the sense of being taboo. Not pejorative or derogatory in any real sense, except that which derives from being forbidden and taboo ( and perhaps being associated and equivocated with other things that are forbidden and taboo. Like eating pork.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.208.61 (talk) 06:09, 17 November 2016 (UTC)