Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog/Archive 1

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Page Move
An attempted page move seems to have trashed this article. Forunately, I had a rendered copy saved in my cache. Reconstructing. -- The Anome 16:14, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Deleted Sections
I've restored the deleted sections. Anon, is there some sort of controversy about the trademark issue and the external links? If so, that would be a useful addition to the article - it's better to expand and explain rather than delete. Otherwise, could you explain the deletions here? Thanks -- sannse 16:44, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * I've restored the deletions again and added a comment asking for discussion before further deletions (using

The Truth? Edited on 12/15 by the NSBR
This information was originally presented here by Jeff Bragg. It was a very unbiased page until certain factions started to play with it! Earlier today I added some TRUE information so that the reader could get an honest view about these dogs. I did not remove the "other" "registries" that had been listed by the dissidents, just clarified the FACTS!

In all honesty, they should not even be listed, unless just to warn the public regarding the various groups that *claim* to be "registries" that are selling their mutts as Shiloh Shepherds because the *name* is not trademarked at this time. Although I have been awarded "common law" rights to my name, as has been proven via court documentation!

Now for some FACTS.

1. The Shiloh Shepherd is *not* a "breed" because it is *not* recognized by any legitimate organization, like the AKC, CKC, FCI, UK, etc. We are still a breed UNDER DEVELOPMENT, and even listed as such on many independent web sites! Please view

<<NOTE: The Shiloh Shepherd is a breed under development. The "breed" is not approved by the Canadian Kennel Club (CKC), United Kennel Club (UKC), nor the American Kennel Club Foundation Stock Service (AKC-FSS) due to it NOT meeting the requirements as of yet. For further details regarding breed registries, see Dog Breed Registries in North America. Because the Shiloh Shepherd is a breed under development, the importance of learning about the breed and the Breeder before you buy cannot be stressed enough. The links provided here are strictly for information purposes and convenience in finding relevant details about the breed and/or breeders and should in no way be viewed as a recommendation, endorsement or support of any one site over another. >>

http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/shiloh.htm

2. As the Breed Founder, I can assure you that I know exactly how many pups are born every year, and how many LEGITIMATE dogs are registered yearly!! Over the past 15+ years only approximately 4,000 have been entered into our TCCP database ... you do the math! Out of that number less then 20% were considered worthy of being bred, and more then 70% of those are now gone/over the age limit for breeding!! In a united effort, the ISSR Licensed Breeders only produce approximately 200 pups per year ... yet many *other* pups are being sold as "Shiloh Shepherds" via the 'self proclaimed' "registries" promoted by the BYB's that have started them, just recently!!!

3. If these factions had ANY kind of credibility at all they would have been accepted by the UKC when they tried so hard to unite & apply last year. Take a moment and read the FULL story!! http://www.shilohshepherds.com/letterToUKC.htm I think this article clearly shows the TRUE facts!!

''Judy Vaneman wrote:Ms. Barber. As the owner and registrar of the NSBR, I truly resent your claims that we are "dissidents", selling mutts, back yard breeders, or not entered into the ISSR database, therefore not true Shiloh Shepherds. Your comments are rude and very near to something that could result in a law suit. I am sure the TSSR and SSBA feel the same. :As a person who saw the need for a true registry, not just something that is owned and promoted by you, I also resent that you have implied that I personally am a BYB, again, heading for a slander law suit. You need to watch your language and show proper respect to everyone, even if they are not affiliated with you.'':We walked away willingly in 1997 from your organization and have never wanted to approach you or your ISSR again. I personally watched in horror as you permitted dogs with bad hips be bred under your SP (still permissable) hip program.':The NSBR originally had the same rules as the ISSR (with the exception of the SP program), but we have raised the bar and still believe in the DNA program. Since you were the only offender when that DNA program was initiated in 1995, I can understand why you dropped that program with your ISSR. For you to say our registration rules are lax is inaccurate as they are at least as strict, if not more so than the ISSR rules that you developed.
 * Respectfully, I ask that you not resort to slander for either the registries or the breeders who are not affiliated with you.
 * Judy VanemanShilohshepherd 19:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)'

Edits
Yes, I admit that my name is Karen Ursel, that I am the secretary of the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and that I have edited the page several times this year in an attempt to return the article to the original words and intent of its author, J. Jeffrey Bragg.

For information about Tina Barber's common law rights to the words "Shiloh Shepherds" please reference the 1996 settlement in the court case of The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America and Tina Barber vs. Watts, Turkheimer and the United States Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club in the US District Court in New Jersey http://www.shilohshepherds.com/1996CourtCase.htm. Pdf's of the settlement are attached to this page.

Quoting from the settlement:

"The parties now wish to settle and resolve their mutual differences. …the parties hereto agree as follows:

1. Defendants acknowledge that Shiloh Shepherd™ and International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. ™ are valid and protectable trademarks of which Barber and ISSR are the rightful owners, respectively. Defendants affirm Plaintiffs’ trademark rights and agree that no future use or infringement of the name or mark (nor colorable imitation or variation thereof) will be made, irrespective of whether the mark(s) are accepted for registration on the Register. 2. Defendants agree not to begin or maintain a registry, club or organization that claims any affiliation, origin or sponsorship with Shiloh Shepherd™ (as for example, indicating in advertisements, correspondence, sales materials, etc. that a Schaeferhunde or other breed “originates from” Shiloh Shepherd™ dog), except as specifically permitted in paragraph 3 below. 3. (a) Only dogs duly and actively registered within the ISSR may be referred to as Shiloh Shepherd™ dogs. Any dog which is not properly ISSR registered shall not be referred to by Defendants verbally or in writing, as a Shiloh Shepherd™ dog, or any variance or imitation of the name Shiloh Shepherd™.

(b) The use of the word “Shiloh” may only be used in Defendant’s registration, as proof of lineage, if the name was originally established through AKC registration as having come from Tina Barber’s Shiloh Shepherd Kennels, prior to the formation of the ISSR."

I apologize for inadvertently violating Wikipedia procedure as I was unaware that a lock had been put on this page until after I saw that my ip address had been blocked.

Trillhill


 * Hello Karen. I have been reading this with interest. All of my dogs, with the exception of the dogs born since 1997 (when I walked away from Ms. Barber and the ISSR) were registered breedable dogs with the ISSR. Ms. Barber says (as do you) that now, they are no longer Shiloh Shepherd dogs, even though I have the original registration papers bearing all legitimate ISSR seals. For many years, I advertised my Shiloh Shepherds in Ms. Barber's advertisements in many dog magazines, and now she says they are no longer a breed. We advertised as a collective breed with her. Judy VanemanShilohshepherd 19:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Shiloh Lover
At least I've identified who I am.

The information I presented from the case settled in the US District Court in New Jersey was from actual court documents. The link I provided gave links to the pdf files of the scanned documents, but here they are again: http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/courtCasePartI.pdf http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/courtCasePartII.pdf http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/courtCasePartIII.pdf http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/courtCasePartIV.pdf

Just because these documents are not located on an anonymous blog site make them no less valid.

J. Jeffrey Bragg is a well known canine geneticist. Please reference: http://www.canine-genetics.com/Genetics.htm for a listing of several of his articles, such as "Pure Bred Dog Breeds into the 21st Century", "The Genetic Tide: Will It Leave Us High and Dry", and "The Genetic Tide Continues to Swell". In addition to the Canine Genetics website, his articles are referenced on Netpet.com, Workingdogs.com, and numerous others.

TrillhillTrillhill

ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Facts
1. Tina Barber is this breeds founder.

2. This breed is in transition, which means it’s not done yet.

3. Which means Tina Barber is still in control of where this breed is going.

4. ISSR breeders breed under Tina Barbers guidance. ALL BREEDINGS MUST BE APPROVED BY TINA BARBER FOR THE OFFSPRING TO BE ISSR QUALITY.

Just putting together 2 ISSR dogs does NOT make ISSR puppies.

Genetics is the name of the game here, and not papered dogs.

5. Yes other breeders have stolen stock and have confused the general public.

People will always want to breed dogs that are inferior to make money.

No dog is perfect, but some should not be breed and still others should not be used for this breed.

Which means they are fine for a GSD, but do not hold what Tina Barber is looking for in the Shiloh line. People take this news badly and try to go it on their own with Tina Barbers dogs name. Why? Because of the money involved.

6. Creating your own breed takes time, knowledge and a plan. Tina Barber has that plan, has taken the time and applied her knowledge

The outcome is yet to come. The dog is on its way, but hasn’t arrived yet.

How can others claim to be able to breed a dog that doesn’t exist yet?

What you are seeing today are foundation dogs of the future. Tina Barbers dream.

67.186.153.43 13:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)Katy Schuele

the dispute
I added a tag to this article, as there is clearly a dispute between two groups over the facts about this dog.

I'd also like to remind everyone discussing things on the talk page that they should sign their own posts using 4 tilde characters as follows: ~

This will put your name and timestamp in place. It's confusing to read the debate otherwise as you have to look at the history in order to see who actually posted what.

Trysha (talk) 19:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Blatant lies posted by Tina Barber AKA MaShiloh
Under the health section Tina Barber has edited to include the claim that the ISSR breeders must do "mandatory" health testing of hips, heart and elbows. This is a blatant lie as proven from the ISSR web site stating their breeding rules.

The only mandatory testing required of an ISSR breeder, per their own web site, is a preliminary hip x-ray taken at 12 months of age. Even then, if the said dog doesn't pass, Tina Barber, who feels she knows better than the experts, will give the said failing dog an "SP" (still permissable) rating enabling it to be bred. There is no mention, nor has there ever been mention of testing of heart and elbows in the ISSR rules. This is just one example of her attempts to deceive the public and Wikipedia.

Patti

I AM TAKING A MOMENT HERE TO REPLY IN ALL CAPS, JUST SO THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE WHO IS WRITTING WHAT!! ALL OF THE VANDALISM OF POSTS PRESENTED BY HONEST PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST TRYING TO SHARE INFORMATION JUST PROVES WHAT THE SLIVERS ARE UP TO ... THEIR OWN AGENDA!! TO SELL GSD/MIX PUPS BY USING MY NAME!!

THE TRUTH CAN BE FOUND ON http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm

Tina. M. Barber, breed founder http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapAboutOurBreedFounder.htm

Scare tactics
When confronted with facts and logic by someone Tina Barber resorts to scare tactics. As by her own admission rather than back her claims with provable facts to dispute a posters claims, she contacts a posters employer in an attempt to cause him employment problems. How pathetic is that? Signs of a desperate person who cannot back their claims so she tries to eliminate the person proving her wrong. This is no surprise though, this has been how she has always handled things when confronted with real provable facts, take the attention off of herself and try to hurt or intimidate the people who can back what they say. ShenandoahShilohs 21:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Blatant Lies
Patti,

You wrote "There is no mention, nor has there ever been mention of testing of heart and elbows in the ISSR rules. This is just one example of her attempts to deceive the public and Wikipedia."

Please refer to our Gold Star Program:

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issr.htm#GoldStarProgram

Article 3 Section 12: Gold Star Program

Special 3-4-5 Star Certificates will be issued to any adult papered RED/ORA/GOL dog that has attained (accumulated) his/her stars by fulfilling any combination of the following requirements.

1. Has attained a minimum of 3 OFA verified certificates recorded in the OFA health database, and/or

2. Completed his/her ISSR breed club Championship, and/or

3. Earned an accredited working degree via an ISSR recognized organization, such as the AHBA (American Herding Breed Association), DVG America (Deutscher Verband der Gebrauchshundsportvereine), USA (United Schutzhund Clubs of America), PSA (Protection Sports Association) or any ISSR sanctioned STM certification.

as well as our Platinum Plus registration certificates:

Section 2: Item F-3.) PLATINUM PLUS certificates with 4 or 5 Gold Stars* will be issued for FREE to any dog that meets all of the Article II Section 2 Item F-2 requirements PLUS

1). has attained a minimum of 3 verifiable OFA certificates recorded in their health* database and/or


 * Final OFA hip rating *Normal Elbows *Clear Heart *Normal Thyroid

2.) has attained an accredited working degree via any organization recognized by the ISSR (see full details on the Gold Star program as per Article 3 Section 12).

Both of these programs have been in place for several years.

Trillhill 00:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

re: Blatant lies
While your Gold Star program appears to be a wonderful program, it is not MANDATORY as claimed by Tina Barber in her edit of the article per your own rules. Also, since Tina Barber claims to have 4000 Shilohs in her data base, can you share how many of them are 5 Star members of your program? I don't see that many on the OFA web site with all that testing completed. 152.163.100.132 02:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

THIS IS A SIMPLE MATRIX THAT CLEARLY SHOWS THE TRUE HISTORY!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm

BTW, Patti, how come you were tossed out of the TSSR? Didn't you start that "registry" ?? Who is running it now?? Why?? Could it be that your group was "grandfathering" in dogs that were never health tested, even though you make wild claims about how strict you were?? Gosh, looks like I will have to dig up all of those archives now & write ANOTHER web article!!

Resonse to TB:''Tsk, tsk Tina, just one more of your lies. It can very easily be proven that I resigned my position as the TSSR registrar for a multitude of reasons. If I were tossed out as your lie claims, they would not have the complete data base I created. As for the grandfathering in of dogs, those were the original TSSR rules for older dogs that still have more testing than what your ISSR requires. As for another web article, go for it. We all enjoy reading your fictitious ramblings, it just exposes you for what you are. Each fictitious article you write just shows more ISSR people what you are about and just gives us more of them to welcome as they leave you.'' 205.188.116.136 02:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

re:Shiloh Shepherd facts
1. Tina Barber is this breeds founder.

2. This breed is in transition, which means it’s not done yet.

Response: 'In 1991 Barber asked for recognition of the Shilohs Shepherd as a Breed with the American Rare Breed Association, providing them with a breed standard with closed stud books. Further, for years they were sold to the general public as a "Breed" and advertized in National Magazines as a Breed. It has only been the last few years were the new claims of a breed in development sprang up as a means to control people.'

LIE ... THE STUD BOOKS ARE NOT CLOSED, AND ARBA RECIEVED THE BREED STANDARD FOR JUDGING PURPOSES ONLY!!!

3. Which means Tina Barber is still in control of where this breed is going.

'Response: That is the whole problem, she has to feel in control of everything, but that control was lost once the Shiloh Shepherd was recognized as a Breed of dog'

NOBODY RECOGNIZED IT .. CHECK THE AKC, CKC, UKC, FCI DATA! http://canadasguidetodogs.com/breeders.htm

4. ISSR breeders breed under Tina Barbers guidance. ALL BREEDINGS MUST BE APPROVED BY TINA BARBER FOR THE OFFSPRING TO BE ISSR QUALITY.

Just putting together 2 ISSR dogs does NOT make ISSR puppies.

Genetics is the name of the game here, and not papered dogs.

5. Yes other breeders have stolen stock and have confused the general public.

'Response: 'Excuse me? Typical of this ISSR group. When people decide to leave the ISSR with the dogs that they have purchased claims are made that they have "stolen stock" when in reality, they just made a dicission to leave on organization for another.

FULL DETAILS ARE DOCUMENTED VIA http://shilohbuyersbeware.blogspot.com/

People will always want to breed dogs that are inferior to make money.

No dog is perfect, but some should not be bred and still others should not be used for this breed.

'Response: How very true, you should take that fact to heart.'

ISSR LICENSED BREEDERS DO CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE PRODUCING & HOW THIS WILL EFFECT ALL FUTURE GENERATIONS!

Which means they are fine for a GSD, but do not hold what Tina Barber is looking for in the Shiloh line. People take this news badly and try to go it on their own with Tina Barbers dogs name. Why? Because of the money involved.

'Response: 'Again, twisting facts. People have left for many reasons,most moral reasons, some as evident from the lawsuits against the Barbers per posted legal documents. People have been "going it on their own" now for over 8 years with many generations of wonderful HEALTHY Shilohs as proven by OFA stats as well as the many many Champions in the show rings.

THIS PAGE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS!! WITH LOTS OF DOCUMENTATION!! http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/shilohWallShame.htm

6. Creating your own breed takes time, knowledge and a plan. Tina Barber has that plan, has taken the time and applied her knowledge

The outcome is yet to come. The dog is on its way, but hasn’t arrived yet.

How can others claim to be able to breed a dog that doesn’t exist yet?

'Response: 'How history has changed according to Tina Barber. When all those people back in the early 90's purchased these dogs you claim don't exist, they were sold for huge price tags as the "perfectly Breed, with a "blue printed" genetic make up. Many people learned the hard way that too was just another sales and marketting tool and have worked hard to create the dogs they were all promised when writing those checks.

THE TRUE HISTORY IS FULLY DOCUMENTED IN THE CLUB ARCHIVES! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapSSDCALinks.htm

What you are seeing today are foundation dogs of the future. Tina Barbers dream

AMEN!! PLEASE READ http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap2005HistoryShilohShepherd.htm

'Response: 'How gullible or lacking of intelligence do you think most people are? Barber claims she has been developing these dogs now for how many years, it changes ever so often? Last I read it was like 40 years making her  like 14 years old when she started.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ MY NEW BOOK, IT IS FULLY DOCUMENTED WITH PICTURES & DETAILS ABOUT MY HISTORY!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap2005HistoryShilohShepherd.htm

'If a person hasn't been able to accomplish their dream in that many years maybe it is time they wake from that "dream" It didn't take Max V S anywhere near that long to create the GSD, and the Shiloh is, just as Barber claims, the GSD of old.'ShenandoahShilohs 03:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

THIS JUST SHOWS TO PROVE HOW LITTLE YOU KNOW ABOUT GENETICS!! MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE SOME TIME TO READ HIS HISTORY?? THEN YOU CAN GO TO OUR LEARNING CENTER AND READ http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap2005OngoingBreedDevelopment.htm

A Few Facts
Maybe we can all agree on a few facts.

1. The Shiloh Shepherd was developed by Tina M. Barber.

2. The Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA), founded in 1991, was and continues to be the original Shiloh Shepherd breed club, with chapters across the US and Europe.

3. The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), started in 1991, is the original registry and has been continuously registering Shiloh Shepherds since that time.

Both of these entities are associated with the breed's founder, Tina M. Barber.

4. Foundations for another breed club, the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (original ISSDC), began in 1997 with that club coming into existence in 1998 and starting its own registry in early 1998.

5. The original ISSDC and its registry closed down in 2001.

6. With the close of the ISSDC's registry, various smaller registries were formed from what remained.

a. The NSBR was started in 2001 according to their own website. b. The TSSR started in 2002. c. The SSBA, which seems to include many of the same breeders as the NSBR, was also formed.

These smaller registries formed because the breeders could not get along with each other after the ISSDC's registry was closed, not because they had just recently ended their association with Tina M. Barber or had recently been breeding within the ISSR.

The NSBR and the TSSR have their registry rules and regulations on their websites. The NSBR's rules are pretty lax, the TSSR's more strict. The SSBA currently does not publish their rules on their website.

7. Another attempt at forming a breed club, the new ISSDC, was made in mid to late 2004. Membership is free.

If you disagree with or question any of this, please check the ISSDC, TSSR, SSBA and NSBR websites.

---

I've just spent 30 minutes going through the history of this article.

I think it was Shiloh Lover who accused ISSR folks of vandalizing the web page.

The article on the Shiloh Shepherd was written by J. Jeffrey Bragg and first published on Wikipedia in July 2003. There were minimal changes until April 14th of this year.

At that time, someone changed the article to read:

''"The Shiloh Shepherd Dog was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Kennels in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium imitators and dissident breed clubs and registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. Not agreeing to financially and/or morally support a breed founder that does not do necessary health testing and that breeds dogs with known genetic and temperament issues does not make one a dissident ... it makes one ethical. As a result trademark status was sought for the breed name... and denied! The breed has its own independent registry, the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. The ISSR does NOT have a REGISTERED Trademark on the name "Shiloh Shepherd." Both the ISSR and the breed founder, Tina Barber, were denied a trademark. If you will take note the TM she uses is not enclosed in a circle. "''

The links to the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the ISSR were changed to the http://www.shilohshepherdtssr.com. (The TSSR home page)

One might think that this was "vandalizing" the page.

By April 16th, the link to the Shiloh Shepherd breed standard had been removed and references were made to the TSSR, the SSBA and the NSBR with the ISSR relegated to being one of many "independent registries."

On April 18th, the article was reverted to the original.

On Nov.4th, the ISSR was removed from the body of the article and mentioned as an external link only. This change was made by Shiloh Lover (Bold Canines, a non-ISSR breeder.)

The pace quickly accelerated.

On Nov. 26th, the page was changed to again mention the ISSR in the body of the article.

On Nov. 30th I added an external link to page that compared the various registies and the two clubs, with information taken from their websites.

On Dec. 2nd Shiloh Lover removed that link and changed the history section to read "As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed has multiple recognized registries, that follow a common breed standard, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under the parent breed club - The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club.ISSDC."

Again no mention of the only registry that has been registering Shiloh Shepherds since 1991. This is hardly neutral or non-partisan.

On Dec. 3rd, the breed's founder changed the history section to read ''"The Shiloh Shepherd Dog was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds (Kennel) in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed now has multiple registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club.

However, the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 dogs registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America."''

On Dec. 4th, Shiloh Lover changed this to read ''"The breed now has multiple recognized registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club ISSDC.

The founding registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to exist with over 4,000 dogs registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America."''

On Dec. 5th, the wording was changed to: ''"As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed now has multiple self proclaimed registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club. None of these have full documentation regarding the database, nor do they follow the rules of the official and true registry established by the breed founder, to document all LMX data for this breed while in development.

However, the breeds original registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 carefully selected progeny registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and Tina M. Barber, the breed founder."' On Dec. 6th' Shendandoah Shilohs (TSSR breeder and the vice president of the ISSDC) changed the history section to read

"The Shiloh Shepherd Dog has been under development by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds (Kennel) in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium a new private breed club and many private registries arose, creating considerable confusion about the breed. The breed now has multiple registries, including The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) all falling under The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club. These registries follow strict health testing that can be documented. The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club is a very large and fast growing club uniting all the above registries. Many of the 4000 dogs claimed registered with the ISSR are dogs that have left that registry years ago. However, the breeds original registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 carefully selected progeny registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and Tina M. Barber, the breed founder."

I would suggest that non-ISSR folks were at least equally responsible for making partisan changes to this article. Between Dec. 6th and 8th the page was changed at least 18 times! It's ridiculous and embarrassing to the breed (even if it is still under development!).

Trillhill 04:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

FRAUD?
First of all I would like to thank Karen for the nice -honest- post!!

<< I would suggest that non-ISSR folks were at least equally responsible for making partisan changes to this article. Between Dec. 6th and 8th the page was changed at least 18 times! It's ridiculous and embarrassing to the breed (even if it is still under development!).

Trillhill 04:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog" >>

I know they will reply that they love their dogs .. fine .. so do millions of people that adopted rescues, but this does not make those dogs worthy to be bred!!! Less then 10% of the pups born within the ISSR are ever used for breeding ... why? because we are trying to develop a BREED ... instead of just producing pups & trying to slander the original breed founder in order to get more sales!!!

I think that everyone reading this page should take a look at the links I dropped, and do some serious investigating!! KNOWLEDGE IS POWER ... Take some time to join our forums and ask questions!! We have 1040 members that will be more then happy to reply!! http://shilohshepherds.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=439608064

Tina M. Barber http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm

Post Deleted??
I guess some folks here sure hate the truth, or logic? Why was this post completely deleted by Shiloh Lover

<< == Moderator help please ==

I would like to request that those of you who moderate this site work with Tina M. Barber (the breeds founder and ultimate authority on these dogs) to develop an article that is both factual and acceptable to both parties. I would also like to request that once the article is written, that it be locked so further 'editing' by those who do not know the true history of these dogs can be avoided.

Tina M. Barber, breed founder http://shilohbook.blogspot.com/

If you don't want your writing to be edited and redistributed by others, do not submit it.Italic text

Accidental Deletion by Self - Moderator, please correct
The deletion of ===Moderator Help=== was entirely unintentional and occured during the removal of previous posts by self.

I will attempt to reinsert discussion point in correct place.

Deletion of self created discussion items were removed as I will no longer participate in this article.

Shiloh lover 16:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment from a Satisfied ISSR Shiloh owner
I have two ISSR Shiloh Shepherds from Tina and Lisa Barber (New Zion Shiloh Shepherds) that I am very satisfied with. I found Shiloh Shepherds during a search for suitable service dog candidates during early 2000. Due to the exacting standards required, the ISSR and Tina Barber's standards for breeding fit the bill.

Casey, my female, I received after the fire at Tina's house in 2000 for training as a mobility support service dog. She learned her job very well and also alerted to seizures I have before they happened. In late 2002, while trying to keep me from falling due to snow-covered ice, she was injured and had to retire from public duty. I still have her and she is helping me at home.

Rebel, my male, I received from the Barbers in Febuary of 2004 to train as a mobility support/retrieve service dog. He is doing well with his training and I hope to graduate him to full duty the summer of 2006 after his CGC is completed.

Both dogs are medium soft in temperament. Both dogs have handled new situations well during training and/or duty for service work, including flying on commercial airliners at my feet.

I feel with the information available on the ISSR and SSDCA websites, anyone can make the same informed choice that I did. The other registeries simply, in my opinion, do not adequately document what they are trying to do. It is also my opinion that if the other registries' breeders are not following the standards set by the ISSR, then they should not be calling their dogs Shiloh Shepherds. All I have seen since I became involved in the Shiloh world is these other people badmouthing the ISSR, SSDCA, and Tina Barber. They have not shown why they have the right to call their dogs Shiloh Shepherds.

With respect,

Tony Matzke 17:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)Anthony Matzke

Casey's training
(See (cur) (last) 05:03, 11 December 2005 12.191.34.254 (→Comment from a Satisfied ISSR Shiloh owner) for reason for this post.  Original poster removed comments again.  Tony Matzke 14:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)Tony)

Casey is a fire survivor. Any dog living thru that would have some issue to work thru. I was up to the task in helping Casey with whatever issue arised from it. Yes, flashing lights are a problem for her at night sometimes (We were at O'Hare, btw.). But, I was not hurt when she veered away from them. I used this as a training opportunity to work thru this problem and we continued on. Also, keep in mind that Tina did not train Casey, I did. I also worked with local professional trainers to help Casey overcome some of the fears from the fire. What we had not worked on was flashing lights at night. Afterward, we had. Still has some issues with a certain color of light on snowplows. So what? Not a breeding issue. Not Tina Barbers fault. Would you do so well if you had just survived a house fire? (See SSDCA News and scroll down to Januaury 25, 2000.)

Casey is now retired from the injury in 2002 (which I have vet records for). She still does some work for me at home.

All-in-all, the trainers here felt Casey was good SD material. I still stand by my statement "She learned her job very well". A professional service dog trainer said she was well-trained.

As I said, I train my own dogs. I work thru any enviromentally-caused issues that might arise. I am happy with the dogs I get from Tina.

Tony Matzke

RE: FRAUD?
TB writes""As I look at these pages it pains me to see the extreme's that some people choose to resort to in order to sell their mutt puppies!! If these people had a better plan, then why don't they name their breed & move on? Why do they insist on using MY name?? Maybe because it is well known, and they need it in order to fool the public into paying them a lot of money for worthless mutts?? ""

I'm sure it does pain you, TB, to see what great strides the non-ISSR breeders have been making with their Shiloh Shepherds. One is top dog in ARBA, three more are in the top ten Rarities this year. Such beautiful examples of the breed! You should be proud to see how far these dogs have come! And we really do the health testing, instead of just spouting hot air about it. And we keep and share far more LMX data than you could ever hope to do yourself with all your secrets. The five dogs that I paid ISSR for to get LMX on different stud dogs had NO information on them!

The truth is that we are having one heck of a time trying to build the Shiloh Shepherd name back up after you muddy it over and over again with your unethical breeding/business practices and your insane rantings about slivers and oxymudas. But we're doing it in spite of you.

Worthless mutts?? I guess that depends on what you know and what's important to you. I took my own dogs out of th ISSR because I was ashamed to be associated with it any longer. I call my dogs Shiloh Shepherds because that's what they are. That doesn't change just because you say so.

This whole thing is rediculous and embarrassing to the breed. But what isn't if you've got yourself fired up?

And trying to get someone fired from thier job (that's something most people do to earn money so they can pay their bills and debts), just because he stood up to your BS!!! I'll tell you what, TB, you can call my job any time. We work with the mentally ill. I'm sure that anyone you talked to there would be very understanding of your problems. Gloria 14:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Some more facts for Gloria
YOU SAID ''I'm sure it does pain you, TB, to see what great strides the non-ISSR breeders have been making with their Shiloh Shepherds. One is top dog in ARBA, three more are in the top ten Rarities this year. Such beautiful examples of the breed! You should be proud to see how far these dogs have come! ''

Tina M. Barber replied;

If you call this making strides, then you must be blind or so brainwashed that you can't tell the difference between a horrible example of a mutt GSD/Husky mix, and a REAL Shiloh Shepherd!! I sure hope that the moderators reading this can tell that the dogs you are so proud of don't resemble our breed standard at all!!!

For that reason I am sharing our IBS http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsFinal.htm

As well as my last report about the dogs you seem to be so proud of!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/hartfordPetExpo.htm I sure hope that these pictures can speak for themselves!! If not, and anyone here wants to see more, please be sure to click on http://www.shilohshepherds.info/broken.htm

A few more links
I think that the people reading this have a right to know the truth

Full details regarding my breeds history can be found on http://www.shilohshepherds.info/shilohHistory.htm

More details & lots of pics of what the "others" have been producing can be discovered via the many reports we have on my yearly reports http://www.shilohshepherds.info/broken.htm

For those that may not understand what a real breed is/isn't I would like to share http://www.shilohshepherds.info/rareBreeds.htm

For those that may think that Shilohs are just long haired GSD's I would like to provide http://www.shilohshepherds.info/rareBreeds.htm

And last buy not least, for those of you that may not understand WHY there is such a controversy, I would like to invite you to visit the new http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/shilohWallShame.htm

I would like to thank those of you that are willing to learn more by clicking on these links!!

Tina M. Barber http://www.shilohshepherds.info/tinaBarberBio.htm

reply to TB's BS
A "few more facts for Gloria"????? Again, TB, you claim as proof some self made, self proclaiming garbage as fact. Your "last report"!! You provide links to your own website and for some reason believe that others would find this to be the truth. Get over it!! You're a phoney baloney and everyone knows it. You're the biggest joke in the dog world.

You take sloppy pictures of other people's dogs and try to spin that as proof that yours are better. If yours are so much better, then why don't you enter them in a show against these dogs? When I saw your dogs they had feces caked onto their skin and smelled of urine.

You don't have a single dog in your kennel that looks like the one you had someone draw up for you as your breed standard. If you could only see the people laughing over that one!!!! That's the joke of the year, TB!

I know, I know...you say it's a breed in development, but come on, how many decades do you need to get a certain look? You claim to have been doing this since you were 12 years old. Looks like the splinters are going to beat you to it. Scares ya, doesn't it??? We've got some beautiful, healthy dogs out there being bred and winning in all the shows. We've got a lot of good people trying to clean up the mess you made with our breed. The ISSR has a lot of good breeders doing the same thing, but there's no way you'll ever let them do it because that'll take money out of your pocket and the glory might shine on someone else. If you can't co-own it or make money off of it you won't let any light shine on it - be it a litter or a stud dog. And we all find that out in the end because you don't have friendships or feel committments to other people, you just need people to admire you. And once people see what you really are, and they usually do, they despise you. In your world it's not about the dogs or the breed, it's about YOU, and that CAN be read in all your self serving articles. Write that up in your BarberBio!

Gloria23:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The link Queen
Well the link queen is at it again. Tina's only resource when met with the challange for REAL facts is to flood you with links to her self proclaimed web sites. Notice how no one answered why she lied in the main Shiloh article stating that it was mandatory for ISSR dogs to have hips, heart and elbows done. Her side kick quotes a Gold Star program that is voluntary, not mandatory. When asked how many ISSR dogs have qualified for this program that too was ignored and just a bunch of her hate links posted. Interesting how you can't find any of her own breeding dogs on the OFA web site with all of this "mandatory" health testing.

Since she claims on her web sites that ARBA is using her breed standard here is a real link: http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPoints.htm Here are some pictures of this NON ISSR dog taken by real photographers. http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPictures.htm

Sir Harley of Shenandoah is not only the number 1 ARBA dog, he has been judged using Tina's own breed standard by American and Foreign judges. He is also sponsored by a top Canine Dog Food Company!!!

Interesting how she claims that none of the non ISSR dogs look like real Shilohs. This dog is one of my breedings, produced long after I left the ISSR. He is the top American Rare Breed Dog for 2005, with well over 30 Best in Shows this year. Further he is certified hips, heart, and thyroid.

For a real Bio on the business practices of this "Breed Founder" the facts are at: http://shilohbuyerbeware.blogspot.com/ These are not self proclaimed accolades, these are verifiable court documents.

ShenandoahShilohs 01:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: The Link Queen
Patti wrote "Since she claims on her web sites that ARBA is using her breed standard here is a real link: http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPoints.htm Here are some pictures of this NON ISSR dog taken by real photographers. http://www.arba.org/2005ShowPictures.htm"

Patti, please check out ARBA's breed standard for Shiloh Shepherds. http://www.arba.org/ShilohShepherd1BS.htm

Please note that it says it is the "ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Breed Standard" and is used with exlusive permission from Tina M. Barber.

Please also note that among the disqualifying faults is " A tail that is raised above the vertical line and/or past the horizontal line of the croup". Please check the tail section of the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Illustrated Breed Standard http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsFinal.htm. Then check the links that Tina posted earlier. While not "show" picture quality, they do illustrate the disqualifying fault.

Trillhill 12:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Real Shiloh Shepherd Info
Can be located via http://shilohshepherd.com/

The links listed on this page should answer most of your questions ... for more details, please visit our LEARNING CENTER http://www.shilohshepherds.info/

For lots of pics & yearly updates regarding the oxymorons, please click on http://www.shilohshepherds.info/brokenHeartedBreedFounder2004Update.htm

UPDATE!! '''Here's a link to what the slivers are producing ... be sure to compare the ISSR *puppy* pictured in the ring .. with the top winners that the ISSDC is promoting''' I think this report speaks for itself!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/hartfordPetExpo.htm

To see lots of great pics of real ISSR Shiloh Shepherds, please visit our http://www.shilohshepherdsinfo.com/30YearsHomecoming.htm

re: The link queen
Please also note that among the disqualifying faults is " A tail that is raised above the vertical line and/or past the horizontal line of the croup". Please check the tail section of the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Illustrated Breed Standard http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsFinal.htm. Then check the links that Tina posted earlier. While not "show" picture quality, they do illustrate the disqualifying fault.

Trillhill 12:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Karen, we all know about your picture taking. Many have heard your master tell you what pictures to take, and which ones not to take. In fact at the Expo and show in Conn. Tina was over heard by a number of people telling you NOT to take pictures of certain dogs as they were CORRECT.

As for bad tails, yup, they are out there in the ISSR as well as the other registries. I persoanlly have seen pictures taken at ISSR sponsored shows. In fact many of us have talked about posting them showing the same faults you claim we have. Our group has decided to take the high road and not hurt the feelings of the owners of these ISSR dogs. There is a library of photo's gathered from shows and even litter pages of ISSR dogs that clearly do not resemble the breed standard you quote.

Rather than following your leader in not answering real questions, but posting propaganda links why don't you all just prove your claims? Why not allow ISSR people to show with real show organizations rather than ISSR only sponsored shows where the jugdes are hand picked. OH that's right, the few times you have, these perfect ISSR dogs get beatby non ISSR dogs, and beat with the judges using the breed standard Tina provided them.

In the 14 years that ARBA has recognized the Shiloh, never before this year, has a Shiloh been the number 1 ARBA dog. And for the record, that dog is a NON ISSR dog. Why don't you come to some shows and take his picture :-)

ShenandoahShilohs 14:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Shiloh Tails
PATTI WROTE

''Karen, we all know about your picture taking. Many have heard your master tell you what pictures to take, and which ones not to take. In fact at the Expo and show in Conn. Tina was over heard by a number of people telling you NOT to take pictures of certain dogs as they were CORRECT.

''

In reality, I told Karen JUST to focus on your TOP winner, and we have several pictures of him on the Expo page clearly proving that we DON'T just try to "catch a bad shot"!!! Why don't you take a look at those pics yourself, there is a link to the report on our NEWS page!! Just go to http://www.shilohshepherd.com/

re: Shiloh Tails
PATTI WROTE

Karen, we all know about your picture taking. Many have heard your master tell you what pictures to take, and which ones not to take. In fact at the Expo and show in Conn. Tina was over heard by a number of people telling you NOT to take pictures of certain dogs as they were CORRECT. Tina wrote:

In reality, I told Karen JUST to focus on your TOP winner, and we have several pictures of him on the Expo page clearly proving that we DON'T just try to "catch a bad shot"!!! Why don't you take a look at those pics yourself, there is a link to the report on our NEWS page!! Just go to http://www.shilohshepherd.com/

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog"

Tina, Lets not try to cloud the facts. The dog that you are talking about is NOT my top winner. I don't think anyone will dispute he has a disqualifying tail. And yes you did focus on him while there was a top winning female at that show that has a correct tail, yet you obviously didn't take pictures of her. If you had it would show the real you and the fact that you ONLY take pictures of some dogs to distort your infamous reports. We all know that is your style, take a bunch of pictures of the same dogs with the same faults while not sharing the correct dogs. It is now, and always has been, all smoke and mirrors with you. You may be able to convince some of your followers that this is truth until they actually come to a few shows and see that your reports are distorted, or enter these shows and get beat. If the ISSR was in reality able to breed such superior animals as you claim, then you would not find the need to worry about what the non ISSR people were breeding as yours would be speak for themselves. Since this is not the case you find the need call people names and write fictitious repeorts to make yourself look important. Also, why not take a look at a number of the ISSR dogs and their faults. Pink noses are also disqualifying, yet you seem to have a ton of them. Ears too tall, yup, I have seen a bunch of them. Undersized dogs, yup they are there too. Rather than worring about what others are breeding and spending all of your time writing reports and making foolish web sites you should try to breed some dogs that actually meet your new IBS!

ShenandoahShilohs 17:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

MS. BARBER, MAY I RESPECTFULLY ASK A QUESTION? I have owned GSDs in the past and am now considering a Shiloh Shepherd. I have read everything on your site, however I have not been able to find any information re: OFA and/or Penn-Hip results or other results of testing (heart, elbow, etc.). Perhaps you could resolve some of the debate and questions re: your health testing practices if you could simply provide the page for those of trying to make an accurate choice here. So, please advise, where can I find that information? Thank you, Miles Dufy

Miles

WikiPedia Rules
Don't do it.

Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Nobody likes abuse.

'''Suggestion: The posters, Tina M. Barber and Trillhill, aka Karen Ursell, to stop referring to their ‘competition’ with the derogatory term “puppy-millers” with the proposition that the opposition will refrain from referring to them as such. '''

Consequences

Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on third parties on sight, and although this isn't policy it's often seen as an appropriate reaction to extreme personal abuse. Users have been banned for repeatedly engaging in personal attacks. Abusive edit summaries are particularly ill-regarded. Suggestion: '''Where the term “abusive edits” is concerned, clearly the poster Tina M. Barber has been the biggest violator. The user, Shiloh Lover, showed complete abiding of the Wikipedia rules from the Article’s first modification. However, due to easily accessible IP traces, the perpetrator, Tina M. Barber, contacted Shiloh Lover’s place of business with threatening emails! Tina M. Barber clearly has no scruples, and I hope the Wikipedia moderators will see clearly on this.'''

Ramifications

Remember that disputes on talk pages are accessible to everyone on the Internet. The way in which you conduct yourself on Wikipedia reflects on Wikipedia and on you. Stay cool. Suggestion: Members of the ISSR/SSDCA agree to disengage from their attack on the fair additions to the Article as have been presented by various non-partisan contributors. Being reasonable

Different contributors may not agree on an article. Members of opposing communities reasonably wish to express their views. Synthesising these views into a single article creates a better, more NPOV article for everyone. Remember to accept that we are all part of the same community as we are all Wikipedians '''Suggestion: Yes! Wholeheartedly, we are Wikipedians as we are Shiloh Shepherd owners and breeders! In the spirit of ‘Wiki-ism’ we can agree to disagree, but we should ALL allow the facts to be publicly presented without biased edits and endless, self-serving, personal internet links. Show pertinent un-biased links, or none at all. '''

So, don't do it!

There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them.

Examples

Specific examples of personal attack include but are not limited to: •	Negative personal comments and "I'm better than you" attacks, such as "You have no life." (Read: Puppy millers, splinter breeders, slivers)

•	Racial, sexual, homophobic, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor. Religious epithets are not allowed even if the contributor is a member of a purported cult. (Waiting to see on this one)

•	Using someone's political affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views - regardless of whether said political affilitions are mainstream or extreme. (i.e. Use of the ISSDC as a discrediting factor to the many breeders who have joined the club.  And to add a correction, no…it’s not free, Karen!  Only 2005 was free as a show of good faith.  Please refer to our subscription page… http://www.issdc.com/ISSDCap.htm )

•	Profanity directed against another contributor. (Although not technically a profanity, ‘Puppy-millers’ is EXTREMELY insulting to the non-ISSR breeders who care so much for this breed, and may only have one or two litters per year! It’s intended as a profanity by the TB, and understood as such through the inner-politics of those who know her.)

•	Threats of legal action (Only TB, through her personal assaults on certain individuals, has threatened legal action.)

•	Death threats. (None)

•	Threats or actions which expose other Wikipedia editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery. Sysops applying such sanctions should confidentially notify the members of the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee and Jimbo Wales of what they have done and why. (I wasn’t AWARE of this clause until now! I will inform Shiloh Lover that he may have recourse as Tina M. Barber has presented a threat to his employer!)

•	Accusatory comments such as "Bob is a troll", or "Jane is a bad editor" can be considered personal attacks if said repeatedly, in bad faith, or with sufficient venom. (How about “splinters”, “puppy-millers”, “mutts” for example? Has TB uttered these accusatory comments enough?) 

Alternatives

Instead, try:

•	Discuss the facts and how to express them, not the attributes of the other party. This does not mean that you have to agree with the other person, but just agree to disagree. (This was precisely the original intent of Shiloh Lover, until TB stepped in.)

•	Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is. (Again, the same original intent by Shiloh Lover, until the attacks and insults began by TB!)

•	Explore issues in a less public forum like e-mail if a debate threatens to become personal. (TB does NOT allow contrary opinions to be voiced on ANY of her personal forums. This sadly is not an option.  Please refer to the plethora of links to her personal website that have been posted.)

•	Read Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.

Remedies

If you are personally attacked, you should ask the attacker to stop and note this policy. If he or she continues, consider following the dispute resolution process. You might also consider removing particularly clear-cut personal attacks per the guideline WP:RPA; however, you should be very careful not to define "personally attack" too broadly, or to do this too frequently. (I will update this post once I finish counting the ‘personal attacks’ against non – ISSR breeders.)

From a recent arbitration committee finding-of-fact: The remove personal attacks guideline (and the application thereof) is controversial. It has often been abused by malefactors, and may not have community consensus. It should, at most, be interpreted strictly and used sparingly. [1]  (TB. Understand this to be a ‘real’ option where other registries are concerned.)

If you find yourself using this remedy frequently, you should reconsider your definition of "personal attack." When in doubt, follow the dispute resolution process instead.

In extreme cases, an attacker may be blocked, though the proposal to allow this failed and the practice is almost always controversial. (In essence, TB, you could be ‘blocked’ pending whatever the Wiki arbitrators determine.)

A misguided notion: "Kicking them while they are down" Note: There are certain Wikipedia users who are unpopular, perhaps because of foolish or boorish behavior in the past. Such users may have been subject to disciplinary actions by the Arbitration Committee. It is only human to imagine that such users might be fair game for personal attacks. This notion is misguided. (Even IF TB is subject to the Arbitration Committee, we, the general Shiloh Shepherd population, still regard her as the breed founder. There’s certainly no dispute about that.)

Community spirit It is your responsibility to foster and maintain a positive online community in Wikipedia. Personal attacks against any user - regardless of his/her past behavior - is contrary to this spirit. (I hope Wikipedia will take into account the personal attacks on one “Shiloh Lover”, aka Dave Herz, via personal emails to his EMPLOYER by one Tina M. Barber, supported by Karen Ursel through this forum. The actions of TB in this instance have gone beyond all previous depths of manipulation and morals.  Links are available for reference.)  

Re: Wikipedia Rules
Interesting that the poster does not sign her post...

 Using someone's political affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views - regardless of whether said political affilitions are mainstream or extreme.

'''There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. If you are personally attacked, you should ask the attacker to stop and note this policy. If he or she continues, consider following the dispute resolution process.'''

I am proud of my dogs' job they do for me. I did not know that was a crime.

Tony Matzke

REPLY
PATTI WROTE

Tina, Lets not try to cloud the facts. The dog that you are talking about is NOT my top winner. I don't think anyone will dispute he has a disqualifying tail. And yes you did focus on him while there was a top winning female at that show that has a correct tail, yet you obviously didn't take pictures of her. If you had it would show the real you and the fact that you ONLY take pictures of some dogs to distort your infamous reports. We all know that is your style, take a bunch of pictures of the same dogs with the same faults while not sharing the correct dogs.

MY REPLY

'''There was only ONE entry that did not have a DQ tail, and that bitch was undersized. her owner actually came to our booth & we measured her against a 25" puppy that was taller! however I did tell her owner that she was a "nice package" and I would not have hesitated to breed to her, using an appropriate male that would increase size in the progeny.  PERIOD!'''

CORRECTION TO "MY REPLY" ABOVE WRITTEN BY T.Barber: While one can say that the above written story about measuring this female is false (very false), it would again be one person word against another. FACT: This particular female has been akc wicked for height on several different occasions by different people. This bitch is officially wicked at 26" (min. breed standard). Measurement was welcomed at the show you spoke of thus the visit to your booth to begin with- the owner had nothing to hide. Her true height measured against a wicket is 26"--not against another dog. This bitch has been judged against the "official ISSR Breed Standard used by Rarities" and has won 5 Best In Shows, 4 Reserve Best In Shows and is the FIRST FEMALE SHILOH SHEPHERD to attain "top 10 status" and "Supreme Grand Champion Status" in the Rarities Show Orgainization. She is TSSR Registered and only 21 mos. of age. For those that are interested in health testing (which I do commend you for)- when she is 2 years old she will go through final hip x-rays/elbows/heart(already completed)/eyes(already completed)/thyroid/TLI testing--results will be public! Respectfully submitted for clarification by: P&C's Ridgewood Shilohs

BTW .. What does any of this have to do with the information on the Wikipedia "Shiloh Shepherd" page??

Jeff put that page up for educational reasons, all you people have done is to keep editing it in order to sell your puppies! Well, let me assure you that not everyone is THAT stupid, most serious buyers will take the time to investigate the TRUTH! We have lots of info in our Learning Center, or they can just go out & buy my new book ;-) http://shilohbook.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________________________________________________ Attn: Ms. Barber (Shiloh Shepherd Founder) Again respectfully, Ms. Barber, instead of this continued debate, PLEASE, for the sake of your puppy-owners, your proponents and the general public interested in this breed, PLEASE answer my questions: I have read everything on your site, however I have not been able to find any information re: OFA and/or Penn-Hip results or other results of testing (heart, elbow, etc.) for your your kennel studs and dams. Perhaps you could resolve some of the debate and questions re: your health testing practices if you could simply provide the web page page on your site for those trying to make an accurate choice here. You have provided extensive information on your site, however an ommission of health testing results for your kennel, forces into question their very existence. Do you believe your current and potential puppy-buyers should have access to this information? If you do, please advise, where can I find that information? If not or if you refuse to respond to this reasonable, respectful request, aren't you risking your credibility, since I cannot understand you having this information but being unwilling to share it with those who are supporting you in the Shiloh world. Taking into consideration your experience with this breed, but also taking into consideration the fact that I don't know you (any more than I know any other Shiloh breeders) and there is obviously much debate within this breed, what factual scientific information (in the form of outside, objective health test results) can you offer to convince puppy-buyers your dogs are healthier than those being bred and sold by those not affilitated with your club/registry. Assuming that anyone willing to pay the prices these dogs are being sold for, would want to have some factual reassurances that their future canine family member has been bred with the least possible chance of genetic disability, is my request for this information not both fair and logical? And, please, I would appreciate anyone responding to this post, please spare us all the "political" rantings; I think we've all heard enough of those. My question is simple and not controversial; I am simply asking Shiloh breeders where I can find offical health testing results for the animals they seek to sell to me. It is a question I have and still ask GSD breeders when considering a purchase of one of their puppies. They either choose to provide this information or they do not. I base my decision to work with them based on their response. Ms. Barber, I kindly call upon you to respond to this request for the sake of this breed and your own reputation as an assumed responsible breeder. Thank you. Miles Dùfy. _________________________________________________________________________________

Health Testing - Edit
Tina M. Barber wrote; I don't think that this is the proper forum for this type of discussion, but since you insist .... Bold textItalic textJudy writes: I think this is an excellent place to talk about health and testing. I am sure Ms Barber doesn't agree as she doesn't do much of it! TB wrote: 1. there is a lot more involved in "health testing" then just an OFA number .. Bold textItalic text Judy writes: I remember that Ms Barber always felt she knew more than the people at OFA who are paid very well to evaluate our hip x-rays. So this statement doesn't surprise me at all. She used to read our hip x-rays and would permit us to breed, even if the hips were bad (ISSR SP program - still permissable to breed. TB wrote: actually, some people are fully aware of the fact that any dog can be brought to a vet - heart tested or hip/elbow  x-rayed - then submitted to OFA, they do not require DNA (nor any kind of) proof that the dog is who  he was claimed to be!!   Bold textItalic textJudy writes:  To this I must say that the ISSR has dropped their DNA program years ago.  When we brought the DNA program to the ISSR, Ms Barber's puppies were the only casualties... seems they didn't have the parents that Ms Barber remembered them having.  The NSBR, TSSR and SSBA all work closely with UC Davis and will not permit a dog to be bred without a DNA proving parentage.

TB wrote: Every ISSR puppy owner that chooses to register their pup receives a large certificate that lists that dogs pedigree, with full data. If they choose to purchase the extended pedigree from the TCCP, they have every right to do so (for a fee) and they can also receive D & R data on their dog. If they choose to breed that dog they can also order LMI & PER data on the "partners" they are considering ... Bold textItalic textJudy writes: Oh yes, I remember those reports well. We paid a huge amount of money for them, only to find out that our own dog was the only one listed out of the entire litter.

TB wrote: what they can't do is to snoop around, looking for info about other peoples dogs, so that they can utilize this information to gossip about other breeders or create a major brouhaha for the owners of those dogs. We look at this data the same way that a doctor/hospital would, and consider it *private* therefor we do not publish the dogs/owners names/data for to "public" viewing! There is NO need to expose individuals that may have a genetic/environmental problem for whatever reason! Then it is utilized by those that need to know specific details for proper selections of future breeding stock. PERIOD! It is not collected for a gossip tool, it is collected to provide us with important information that will enable us to produce better dogs! Bold textItalic textJudy writes: Ms Barber! We have to share the information or else the breed will be lost!!! If you have read our Shiloh list (which I know you have), I am sure you will see that we all share everything, we know that it has to be. And the only people who ever have anything in the line of gossip to say about our shared information would be from your group, under your guidance. This is not a doctors office, this is the life of the Shilohs!! TB wrote: 4. In case you are not aware of this fact, specific testing alone can never provide a breeder with 100% certainty about anything! THIS IS A FACT!! OFA certified dogs still produce dysplastic puppies!! This too is a fact!! There are many web sites LMX data is a better indicator of the potential predisposition any particular litter combination may expect! Bold textItalic text Judy writes:  Amen TB... this is the only thing I have read that has been written by you that is the truth.

More honest Shiloh Shepherd data
Please bookmark this link!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm

This section will answer many questions regarding genetics! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/breedingGenetics.htm

An important article that everyone interested in Shiloh Shepherds should read is http://www.shilohshepherds.info/inbreedi.htm It may help you to understand many of the health problems that were being discovered within our breed approximately 7 years ago, and it might provide you with a better understanding of why we feel the RC program is critical to the future welfare (survival) of this breed!

The links on this page may help you to better understand what the ISSR is all about, and why it is so important to this breed, and those that truly love these dogs!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapTheRegistry.htm

All of the links relating to the GTF can be found on this page http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapHealthSurvey.htm

This entire breed was started because of my discovery regarding the importance of using specific LMX data ... this section provides full details! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapHips.htm

This page will provide you with links that can clearly show you what our club is all about, and why the SSDCA, inc is (and has been) such an important factor in protecting our beloved dogs, as well as their owners!! Please take some time to visit http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapSSDCALinks.htm

For those that would like to talk to our members in person, please take a few minutes to join our very active forums!! We have well over 1,000 members and always welcome newbies that WANT to learn more about our breed! http://shilohshepherds.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=439608064

If you just want to look at pictures, and visit a variety of web pages, please consider clicking on our large WebRing!! http://f.webring.com/hub?ring=issrshilohshephe

Tina M. Barber http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/registyComparisons.htm ________________________________________________________________________________

Mrs. Barber, Below, please see my questions (in bold) re: your responses to my original question (What specific health testing do you conduct on your own kennel sires and dams?).

Miles Dufy wrote;

Assuming that anyone willing to pay the prices these dogs are being sold for, would want to have some factual reassurances that their future canine family member has been bred with the least possible chance of genetic disability, is my request for this information not both fair and logical?

Tina M. Barber replied;

I don't think that this is the proper forum for this type of discussion, but since you insist ....

1. there is a lot more involved in "health testing" then just an OFA number .. actually, some people are fully aware of the fact that any dog can be brought to a vet - heart tested or hip/elbow x-rayed - then submitted to OFA, they do not require DNA (nor any kind of) proof that the dog is who  he was claimed to be!! If you bothered to investigate how many puppies this dog produced, and calculated this data against how many of them passed/failed that information would be a lot more reliable! 'Could you please elaborate specific to your kennel health testing practices? Assuming your hypothesis that OFA does not confirm genetic identity, are you saying you reject OFA as a valid database for testing and therefore do not test, or are you saying you have your kennel studs/dams OFA (or Penn-Hip if you prefer) tested, but are relaying a warning that these services may not be reliable?'

Nevertheless, OFA is not the only system being used, and you are also aware of the fact that we have always excepted pre-limbs for final papers! so let's not use this page to play silly games ... OK? 'What do you mean by "excepted pre-limbed for final paper"? Do you mean "accepted pre-lim (as in preliminary exams...forgive me but, to avoid confusion "pre-limbed" means "before limbs and I don't think you mean you accept testing for dogs before they have limbs/legs") for final paper"? What does your registry consider acceptable preliminary exams for, say, HD, since OFA maintains that a dog attain at least 2 years of age before accurate, and I emphasize accurate, results are possible. Do you disagree with this and, if so, what is your factual data for this assertion (considering OFA is widely accepted and heralded throughout the canine world). Ms. Barber, I'm not playing a silly game with you. These are living, breathing, wonderful animals here and I think we both have an obligation to remain above the fray and discuss this intelligently and without resorting to "baiting". I have refrained from doing so and I sincerely hope you will accord me the same respect.'

2. Every ISSR puppy owner that chooses to register their pup receives a large certificate that lists that dogs pedigree, with full data. If they choose to purchase the extended pedigree from the TCCP, they have every right to do so (for a fee) and they can also receive D & R data on their dog. If they choose to breed that dog they can also order LMI & PER data on the "partners" they are considering ... what they can't do is to snoop around, looking for info about other peoples dogs, so that they can utilize this information to gossip about other breeders or create a major brouhaha for the owners of those dogs. 'Please clarify, are you saying your policy is that new puppy-owners receive "full data" after their purchase or are they given access to this information prior to purchase? Also, when you say "full data", does this include "health testing" results for the dam/sire of the litter?'

We look at this data the same way that a doctor/hospital would, and consider it *private* therefor we do not publish the dogs/owners names/data for to "public" viewing! Accepted, but are you saying you provide health testing information to your potential buyers BEFORE/AFTER they buy a puppy or are you saying access to this information is limited only to the breeder(s), the Registry and your Genetic Task Force?

3. However, we do keep the reports public, showing exact statistics within the breed! There is NO need to expose individuals that may have a genetic/environmental problem for whatever reason! This information is collected so that it can be discussed within the GTF and among the VIB's... period!! Then it is utilized by those that need to know specific details for proper selections of future breeding stock. PERIOD! It is not collected for a gossip tool, it is collected to provide us with important information that will enable us to produce better dogs!'My questions are these: If all information is gathered maintained and disseminated by the very people selling these dogs to us, without any "outside" verification, how do I know if this information is accurate and valid or being interpreted correctly? Who controls this database of information and what safeguards are in place to ensure it objectivity (The OFA has no "dog in this race", so to speak,so many assume it would be more objective in interpreting and retaining accurate records). In addition, as the buyers, do you think we have the right to see this information before investing our money? Most importantly, you still have not answered my basic question: Do you health test your kennel studs and dams and, if so, what testing do you specifically perform? Even accepting your assetion that this is proprietary information (although I reject any health testing information being kept from the actual people who purchase the dogs), you have not said in all of your response what specific genetic/orthopedic/physiological testing your kennel conducts? If nothing more, could you please just answer this one question?'

4. In case you are not aware of this fact, specific testing alone can never provide a breeder with 100% certainty about anything! THIS IS A FACT!! OFA certified dogs still produce dysplastic puppies!! This too is a fact!! There are many web sites that clearly explain the reasons behind this problem, and some serious organizations even admit that LMX data is a better indicator of the potential predisposition any particular litter combination may expect! 'I agree there are no "guarantees", but genetically speaking, as far back as Handel's experiments with the fruit fly, I think you would agree that genetics is both an accepted and fairly reliable predictor of results, to say the least. Granted, anomalies exist,but rarely. In addition, LMX data is a function of "genetics" (as obviously, littermates share genetic imprints) and I agree, in conjunction with OFA and Penn-Hip testing (and any of the other myriad genetic tests available), litter evaluation is an important part of the picture, but reliance on it, exclusive of verifiable science, doesn't seem prudent.'

5. If you bother to research Dr. Padgett's work http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0876050046/104-1012047-6095154?v=glance&n=283155 you will find that he was more concerned with combining potential *carriers* then with individual testing!! Maybe you should take a moment to read this!http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0031.htm  Then go to http://www.awsaclub.com/healthgenetics/caninegen.htm and read what AWSA had to say! None of those links came from MY web sites, this is public knowledge that *good* (reputable) breeders are aware of! No ... they may not "flaunt" such data in order to fool the unsuspecting puppy buyer, but they USE this knowledge to improve their breed of choice!!I have read Dr. Padgett, and may I also suggest that you might gain additional valuable insight about genetics (forgive me, if you are a geneticist, I'm sure you are already very familiar with these authors/publications)by reading the writings of M. Handel (the father of genetics), along with "From DNA to Diversity: Molecular Genetics and the Evolution of Animal Design" (this is a very basic exploration of genetics and should be very easy for all non-professionals interested in genetics to understand), and, of course The Journal of Animal Breeding and Genetics (another great resource re: canine genetics).

Of course, if the "public" wants to read about the Shiloh Shepherd breed, we cover ALL of those basis, in FULL detail on our web sites!! Please take the time to click on http://shilohshepherd.com/ and then go to our Learning Center, and follow ALL of the links ... those articles might just answer all of the questions you have been asking here! 'Could you please give me the webpage URL address for your page indicating what specific health tests you are conducting on your kennel studs/dams. Respecting your desire to not share your results with us, can you please at least tell us what health-screening tests you are conducting on the parents of puppies, in addition to LMX studies? Thank you. Miles ' __________________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________________ 'With all due respect, I am very much "focusing on the Shiloh Shepherd" here when I asked Ms. Barber what health testing she, as the Founder of this "breed in development", conducts on the her breeding dogs, since she produces the greatest number of these dogs (annually, close to more than all other Shiloh breeders combined). That is a valid and highly important question and has nothing to do with politics, rather, it is the standard "factual" question all puppy buyers should/do ask when researching a pure-bred dog. These appear to be very beautiful dogs, however, anyone interested in dog breeding in the U.S. is painfully aware of the ruination of many breeds do to disreputable breeding practices and "genetic" ingnorance. Please do not assume that you are the only "voice of reason" here. Genetic and health testing information should always be provided and included in any article about dog breeding. Ms. Barber has the opportunity to provide her policy re: this testing in this article. I have simply requested she do so. Thank you. Miles Dùfy'

re: the voice of reason
So loyal of you, Sandra, to try to take the heat off of TB each time it gets turned up a notch. But it's hard for me to imagine that you're embarrassed by this since you're usually one of her most vocal supporters when she starts one of her name calling tirades.

I'm afraid I disagree with you on the point that this has nothing to do with the changing of the article. TB was the one that charged non-ISSR Shilohs/breeders with being immitators and disidents and then puppy-millers. Shiloh Lover never strayed from the facts of the artice until TB called his place of employment and tried to get him fired for having an opinion, and at that time he just quit posting. The debate/discussion on this forum has pretty much stayed focused on exposing the truth in these matters. The answers seem pretty obvious to me. Give TB enough rope and she'll hang herself with her own BS every time. I don't blame you for not signing your name.

I agree with M Dufy. If TB's going to claim that non-ISSR Shiloh Shepherds are mutts with no data to back them up, then let her prove that she does it herself. What's so off-base about that? She's the breed founder and whelps/sells the most puppies each year so she should be proud to display this information and negate any question of problems with her breeding practices.

I agree that we all need to come to a consensus about the article. Maybe getting all the facts out like we're doing will help clear the air so this can all be settled in a neutral way.

Gloria00:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

re: the voice of reason
Gloria writes: ''I agree with M Dufy. If TB's going to claim that non-ISSR Shiloh Shepherds are mutts with no data to back them up, then let her prove that she does it herself. What's so off-base about that? She's the breed founder and whelps/sells the most puppies each year so she should be proud to display this information and negate any question of problems with her breeding practices''.

I too must agree, these facts are very important to the article since Tina Barber has edited the article to claim that ISSR breeders have to do mandatory testing of hips heart and elbows. These questions posed by Miles are very legitamate, just asking for proof of this claim.

With these questions posed I did a search of the OFA web site and looked for the dogs that Tina Barber has on her kennels web site. If these tests are mandatory as per the claims she makes then why are her dogs not on the OFA web site as being certified?

One poster claimed that the ISSR accepts preliminary testing. Ok, but OFA even lists preliminary reports unless the owner of the dog checks the box not to share the results. So the question is, are these dogs being tested at all, or are the owners not allowing OFA to post the results. Either way it is suspicious and certainly doesn't validate the claims made in the article that testing of hips, heart and elbows is mandatory.

Is this relevant to the writing of the Shiloh Shepherd article, I must definetly feel it is.

All over the discussion page some people have said this or that about TB being the ultimate authority on this breed. If that were the true case then one would think that her kennel would be the example for all to follow. TB has made claims that all non ISSR dogs are mutts and don't follow her "vision". Her vision is claimed to be the new Illustrated Breed Standard that she had her "people" pay to have made.

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandardDonorsMay.htm

I just saw a post made yesterday by Tina Barber about one of her stud dogs named Lex. She wrote that he is the most amazing dog that you have ever seen. Others followed with wow, what an awesome dog, etc.. Needless to say I had to go see this dog so I followed the provided link http://www.newzionshilohs.org/studs.htm

Don't take my word for it, go look for yourself, but of course read the Breed Standard first, especially the "Head" section. In the head section it read that the "muzzle should be predominately black". The dog that TB is raving about,Lex, has no black at all on his muzzle, and neither does another of her studs named Basco.

The reason I have pointed this out is to show that her claims that only ISSR breeders are following her vision are false. With 39 dogs listed on her kennel website, yes folks, that is 39 kennel dogs listed as their breeding stock, these matters are important. There are nice little write ups on each of these dogs, but of course no health testing info. Tina Barber has made all sorts of claims and negative comments about non ISSR dogs being faulty, undersized, or just not looking like what a Shiloh should look like per the Breed Standard. What seems to be happening is the claims she is spouting pertain to her own dogs, not the non ISSR dogs. Her top stud Zion's A-Tribute to Snow's Grizz is undersized, and not even looking at other faults two of her other stud dogs have no black on their muzzles per the breed standard, yet this "Lex" is the most amazing dog that you have ever seen per TB.

This is all relevant to show one can't believe what she writes, and her bias article on this Breed of Dog is nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Gloria writes: ''I agree that we all need to come to a consensus about the article. Maybe getting all the facts out like we're doing will help clear the air so this can all be settled in a neutral way''

Yes, I too hope that the moderators of the Wikipedia can see what the problems are here and allow a neutral article about the breed, not all the hype and claims made about the ISSR, and the negative comments made about the non ISSR dogs. Tina Barber has been doing this now for 8 years with claims and hopes that the non ISSR breeders and owners would all just go away. This is not going to happen. The facts are the facts. There are more non ISSR breeders out there that are following the original breed standard and are doing not only health testing, but for 8 years have maintained DNA parent verification on ALL the non ISSR dogs. The ISSR dropped having the dogs DNA tested. One would have to ask why? Is there something to hide that continuing to prove DNA parent verification whould show? There is such a cloud of secrecy with the ISSR. No health data for the public to see, no DNA to show who the puppy you purchase is really from, and basically no proof of any of the claims made.

ShenandoahShilohs 14:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Deleting Posts
Hey Karen, Trillhill, why have you been deleting a number of posts where Tina Barber has violated the Wikipedia rules by calling non ISSR people puppymillers etc.?

For those interested, just click the history tab and you can see all changes and deletions made by people. They don't go away, they are all still in the history for all to see what people have written. ShenandoahShilohs 15:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Neutral Article
To the moderators, and everyone else. I have just posted a revised and very neutral artcile about the Shiloh Shepherd Breed. I am sure as history has shown Tina Barber will edit it and fill it with all of the previous unproven propaganda and bias tilt.

If it is once again edited, anyone can click on the history tab of the article page and see a neutral article vs any edits made by TB.

I am hoping that the moderators can see this and maybe accept this neutral article and lock it. Thanks ShenandoahShilohs 15:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Gloria and Shenandoah
So how about posting where we can find all of the health reports on your breeding stock (including outcrosses). I am sure "Miles" would be very interested in those items too.

With respect,

Tony Matzke

Hi Tony, You can do a search on the OFA web site, and for proof of Penn HIP just ask, I am sure any breeder using such would be happy to send you a copy, as well as thier UC Davis DNA results. ShenandoahShilohs 16:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Moderators and all
As expected the neutral article fair to all keeps being changed back to the false, bias tilted article that has been in dispute.

We know by tracking the IP addy of the person editting who it is, and it is of course an ISSR person. Yes we know who the person is.

So we can keep this childish game of editting and restoring going forever, or the moderators can take action. ShenandoahShilohs 18:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC) _________________________________________________________________________________ 'Unfortunately, at this point, I am left with no other reasonable conclusion than either Ms. Barber is unwilling to answer the question I have asked re: what health screenings she is performing on the dogs she is breeding or she does not have this information to provide. Regardless of her stated unwillingness to provide specific information about her breeding stock to the general public, there is no logical or responsible reason for a breeder to not at least publish their kennel's health testing protocol/policies. Consequently, without this information and as a responsible and concientious animal lover and scientist, we cannot possibly know what Ms. Barber is genetically producing (health and temperament wise). In addition, because the resource material she references about her breed/club/registry, has almost exclusively been written by her, we have no "outside" professional verification of her claims for this breed. Expertise in dog breeding can be claimed by anyone, however, in order for it to be legitimate, it must be measured,compared, and authenticated through independent objective verification methods in order to be truly valid (hence, the credibility of OFA, Penn-Hip, etc.). Without her providing this type of factual scientific information, I can neither ascribe credibility to her claims nor the information she has provided to Wikipedia. Having experienced the sad, painful downfall of the German Shepherd as a breed, I would strongly recommend anyone considering the purchase of any purebred dog, insist their breeder adhere to very strict health testing for all of their breeding stock and provide this information to us before we commit our dollars to them. Through simple research, any potential dog buyer will see that virtually ALL "top" breeders (of all breeds) now readily provide this information in their literature and on their websites and recognize health screening as both critical to the health of a "breed", and the reasonable and acceptable "costs of doing business" for those in the business of breeding and selling dogs. It is a demonstration on the part of the breeder to take responsibility for the genetic project they have undertaken. By dog buyers not insisting on this testing, we do not only ourselves a disservice, but most importantly we drastically increase the risk of dooming the very animals we claim to love so much, to potential lives of pain and suffering because of breeder irresponsibility and our unwillingness to hold them responsible to this higher standard. Considering both her intention to "develop a new breed" and the number of puppies she is producing, I sincerely hope Ms. Barber is actively testing all of her breeding stock and I wish all other breeders profiting from the sale of dogs will do the same. Thank you. M. Dùfy'

Health
'''I was glad to see that someone took the time to edit this correctly! Hopefully the moderators will keep this version!'''

Health The main health issues in this breed are gastrointestinal problems (gastric torsion/bloat, bacterial overgrowth syndrome) and skeletal or bone disorders such as hip dysplasia, panosteitis and osteochondritis. That said, licensed breeders seem very aware of health concerns and have taken strong measures toward effective control programmes and promote health testing, as per the breeding rules set by the ISSR, Inc. such as mandatory hip, heart, and elbow certification as well as entering reported disease data into the GTF database. The SSDCA, Inc (parent breed club)commisioned Dr. George A. Padgett to survey our breeding program in 2000, and provide us with complete reports, this information has been listed & updated via our websites. http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapHealthSurvey.htm and clearly shows that as giant breeds go, the Shiloh is arguably quite a healthy example.

The accepted organizations for health certifications are OFA, Penn HIP. Most Shiloh Shepherd Breeders utilize these organizations to screen their breeding dogs.

'''I did contact the CERF org & was informed that our breed is not even listed there! Of course, some people like using "big sounding" initials to give them some sense of credibility ... however, I choose NOT to fool the public with such BS! Shiloh Shepherds do not need to have their eyes tested for "Collie eye" ... instead they should be tested for things like SAS - EPI - etc.. that have devastated this breed!''' 'Response from Miles: And this is why I have asked you, the Breed Founder, what tests you are conducting on your own breeding stock? Would this not be your responsibility, as the breed founder and expert on Shilohs, to set the example and be on the forefront of declaring your own kennel's methods for health testing? I did not ask what you recommend for other breeders; rather I asked what testing you are conducting with your own dogs. Since you,yourself have indicated above that SAS-EPI-etc. have devastated this breed, rather than shouting from the rooftops your own vitriol about other breeders you do not approve of, wouldn't it be much better for these beautiful dogs and potential puppy buyers if you simply said, for example "With my breeding dogs, I test for hips, using OFA (or Penn-Hip)at such-and-such and age. I also test for SAS in this way, I also test for EPI.  I will provide this information upon request to any person who has either purchased one of my puppies or is interested in doing so." All recogninzed breeders throughout the dog world embrace as a common and standard practice. In fact, on your website, which I have read, you indicate your background is with GSDs, so certainly you are familiar with European (i.e. German) practices, where information of this type is "required" and "published" for all to see by GSD governing bodies in order for those dogs to even be considered for breeding. And you also say that puppy buyers should learn, research and investigate before buying from a breeder. Well then, isn't asking you for your health testing policies on the parents of one of our future puppies an important part of that learning, researching, and investigating. The health of a puppy is his/her most important criteria. If you do not hold yourself accountable for providing this critical information to buyers, then I must ask how you can hold other breeders, outside your organization, up to the same (or any, for that matter) scrutiny' Tina M. Barber Breed Founder http://shilohbook.blogspot.com/

Mr. Dufy
I prefer not get into pis'n (Is this a real word?) contests with skunks! I know who you are,(this is delusional behavior) and am aware of the game you are trying to play in order to sell your unpapered (or fake "home" papered) puppies,  that's your problem, but I can assure you of  ONE thing!!

Any intelligent person that comes to this site to learn about this breed will either dig deeper to investigate (This is exactly what I did and why I asked what the health testing policies are for this breed, specifically Ms. Barber), or be completely "turned off" from this entire breed!! Your efforts are not going to help you sell those puppies!!(this is delusional and paranoid behavior. I don't have puppies and neither am I a breeder.  I am a potential Shiloh puppy buyer who asked a simple question.)   Why don't you try to find something more constructive to do with your time??(I think my concern for the health of dogs is a very constructive use of my time)

The ISSR people that have been reading this page are completely disgusted with what they have seen your friends posting! Your tirades (In case you are unaware, a "tirade" is a litany of angry words. I have been respectful in my questions.  Your comments here, however, amply exemplify a "tirade")only serve to reflect badly on all Shiloh Shepherd fanciers!! Why don't you keep your outbursts (same comment as above re: "tirade") on your own forums, where some of your friends might agree with you! I highly doubt that any of the unbiased Wikipedia visitors, that may have read these pages, are impressed!'(I am an unbiased Wikipedia participant and my guess is that, many of my fellow readers are asking the same question I have asked and wondering about whether or not we are attempting to communicate with a "rational" group of people. If you are buying or breeding these Shilohs, haven't any of you ever wondered what health testing has been performed on the parents, grand-parents, etc. of your dogs?  Why is this such a hot-button?  Is the testing being done or not?  Unless you can provide an answer to that question, you have no credibibility as either a breeder or a buyer or a supporter.  As a side note, however, something tells me that perhaps some people are either fearful of their own lack of knowledge or thrive on insults, discord, an "us vs. them" mentality, a "smoke screen" to avoid truthful, intelligent, and factual discussion. I just wish you felt good enough about yourself to respectfully, maturely and honestly engage in meaningful dialogue. Since you called me a "skunk", I will now sign off as M. Dùfy aka "Pepe LePew" '

Tina M. Barber http://www.shilohshepherds.info/shilohHistory.htm Shiloh Shepherd http://shilohshepherds.info/ Breed founder http://newzionshilohs.org/About_Us.htm

Anyone interested in more info can visit http://www.shilohshepherds.com/realQuestionsHonestAnswersFromTheShilohShepherdBreedFounder.htm ______________________________________________________________________________

'Please see my responses above (in italics)M. Dùfy'

re: Health
Tina Barber writes:

''I did contact the CERF org & was informed that our breed is not even listed there! Of course, some people like using "big sounding" initials to give them some sense of credibility ... however, I choose NOT to fool the public with such BS! Shiloh Shepherds do not need to have their eyes tested for "Collie eye" ... instead they should be tested for things like SAS - EPI - etc.. that have devastated this breed!

Tina M. Barber Breed Founder''

This is the woman that claims so much knowledge and wants people to follow her and yet she makes claims like the above.

For the record CERF is an organization that certifies dogs eyes against a multitude of genetic eye disease. This is a link to thier web site explaining what they do: http://www.vmdb.org/history.html

This link lists the different things that the veterinary ophthalmologists tests the dogs for:

http://www.vmdb.org/categories.html

As one can see, a great deal more than "Collie eye"

Some genetic eye diseases common to the GSD as well as the Shiloh are cataracts, corneal dystrophy and pannus.

CERF testing and certification is just one more step a breeder can take to certify thier breeding dogs clear of genetic disease.

Now, not sure who in the world Ms Barber spoke with to say that CERF does not recognize the Shiloh Shepherd, but they most clearly do, as seen by thier own web site and the Shilohs that are on that site as Certified.

http://www.vmdb.org/cerf2.html

Just scroll down under breeds to SHS-Shiloh Shepherd and then hit search and you will see that they most certainly do recognize this breed as evident by the Shiloh Shepherds listed.

This is just one more example showing that either MS Barber is in the total dark, or is still trying to deceive the general public as well as Wikipedia.

ShenandoahShilohs 21:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Mediation
This is to notify this group that since there seems to be no way that the ISSR posters will leave a factual, unbias article on the Shiloh Shepherd I have requested formal mediation from Wikipedia.

ShenandoahShilohs 21:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Was an answer given? If so, could you please point me to it? Corfil 23:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)Corinne

You can monitor the progress of the request for mediation at this link - Trysha (talk) 00:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Headline text
To: ShenandoahShilohs

'Thank you very much for providing some scientific resources re: the genetics of this breed. May I ask a question? Do you feel that the Penn-Hip test will replace OFA at some point as the "definitive" test for hip dysplasia in the canine and Shiloh world AND do you see advantages/disadvantages to either methods of testing for Shiloh Shepherds in particular? I ask this question because there is some debate (cost being one of them) in among the GSD breeding ranks. Thank you. Miles Dùfy.

To M Dufy,

I personally feel that both OFA and Penn HIP are tools to help breeders. Is one better than the other? Each person seems to have thier own thoughts on that. I have seen great Penn HIP numbers on dogs only getting an OFA Fair. I have also seen great OFA scores on dogs with very high Penn HIP ratings. I have seen dogs with relatively tight Penn HIP numbers have DJD. There are always veriables.

My opinion is use whatever organization that you are comfortable with, but use something to certify your dogs hips. ShenandoahShilohs 22:00, 14 December 2005 (UTC) _________________________________________________________________________________

Headline text
To: ShenandoahShilohs 'Thank you for your kind response to my question...very refreshing. Also, I am familiar with "cataracts" and "corneal dystrophy" in GSDs, but could you explain Pannus to me? Also, what do you see as the most important genetic problems in the Shiloh Shepherd breed? Thank you. Miles Dùfy.'

Miles, Personally I still think that hips are a huge concern for our breed as well as most giant breeds. The next two conditions that worry me are bloat/torsion and gastro diseases such as EPI, Mega E and SIBO. Each illness affects people who's dogs succumb to them the most. Just like the GSD, the Shiloh does have some issues.

Here is a great article on Pannus, easy read.

http://www.eyevet.ca/pannus.html

ShenandoahShilohs 22:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________________

Headline text
To: ShenandoahShilohs

Excellent, thank you very much. Another question re: this breed if I may? Re: personality, my experience with GSDs pursues a standard of, nobility, loyalty and courage with a slightly aloof personality. There have been, of course, with the problems of over-breeding, some personality anomolies including extreme drive to the point of unacceptable aggression and some sharp-shy behavior. Having read the Shiloh standard, and taking into consideration this is the ideal, do you see any genetic personality disorders arising or present in Shiloh Shepherds? Thank you. Miles Dùfy.

''Miles writes: do you see any genetic personality disorders arising or present in Shiloh Shepherds?''

Response: not near as many as in some of thier owners LOL

'''Ok, on a serious note. I can't speak for all Shilohs, and temperament to one can mean something to another. From the majority of Shilohs I have been in contact with most are very sound. Some range from a higher ball drive to some you can't get off the couch. I would say that some of the outcross dogs seem to have a bit more of that "GSD drive", but not as severe.

'''Like with any breed there are extremes. I am not familiar with most of the ISSR dogs, but with the Shilohs I am familiar with, most all fall into the true med soft temperament.

ShenandoahShilohs 23:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________________

Headline text
To: ShenandoahShilohs

'Thank you again for your response and for not being rude to me or calling me names. Your politeness to, and respect for, those of us who are interested in learning about this breed of dog is most appreciated. M.Dùfy'

Mediation Process
Hi everyone, As I previously posted we have asked Wikipedia to aide in mediation of this article.

This is a process where on a mediation site similiar to this both sides can present "thier" sides and an unbias person will try to mediate for a compromise and solution.

It is all public and people can view what each "side: is proposing.

I just read the site and see that the ISSR with spokesperson Tony Matzke, and Tina Barber, request to be the representatives for the ISSR and request that ALL mediation be done through "PRIVATE" e-mails, More proof of the secrecy of the ISSR.

Here is the link to the mediation page if anyone would like to follow the process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RFM#Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog

ShenandoahShilohs 15:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

on mediation, and there are no moderators on wikipedia
I think that people are making some bad assumptions about the process of mediation and how the dispute resultion process works on wikipedia. Arguing facts over on WP:RFM isn't going to help.

The purpose of mediation is not for some admin to read both sides of an argument, decide which is the right one, then put the results up and lock down the article like a judge in a trial would. A mediator will work with the parties involved to reach agreement on the content of the article.

I suggest that everyone involved in this dispute read the following articles:


 * Consensus
 * Administrators.


 * Resolving disputes
 * Requests for comment
 * Mediation
 * Arbitration

The end result of the process should be to have an article that both sides of the dispute agree is factually correct and not want to repeatedly edit. The article should represent both sides view of what a SSD is in a neutral and non-inflammatory fashion, it should talk about the organizations surrounding the SSD in a neutral fashion as well. There won't be any reference to which sides viewpoint is "correct" or who has the "real" SSD.

- Trysha (talk) 17:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Trysha, need help please
Trysha,

As you know this group has asked for mediation. Can you please advise what we need to do as one of the ISSR people named Katy Schuele keeps deleting posts made by our mediators on the mediation page. You can verify this in the history. Our poster put her post back once and it was immediately deleted again by user Katy.

Thanks for any help you can offer. As you can see mediation will be hard to accomplish. 205.188.116.136 20:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've restored the deleted content. I am assuming good faith here.   I doubt that it was malice, it looked to me as if the person in question was trying to reply as they would in an email message, simple user error.


 * A lot of folks seem to be new to this, I'll ask that people follow wikipedia convention and do not delete other content, this is a wiki not a message board.  Don't "requote" other messages in bold, simply reply underneath the text in question and indent your post (begin each of your lines with a colon).  This makes it easy to determine who has replied to what.  - Trysha (talk) 21:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

CERF
Patti wrote;

CERF testing and certification is just one more step a breeder can take to certify thier breeding dogs clear of genetic disease.

Now, not sure who in the world Ms Barber spoke with to say that CERF does not recognize the Shiloh Shepherd, but they most clearly do, as seen by thier own web site and the Shilohs that are on that site as Certified.

http://www.vmdb.org/cerf2.html

Well let me assure you that 10 names listed as "Shilo" (note spelling) Shepherds, from various unknown registries does NOT represent a 'genepool' in anyone's book! Furthermore, CERF is only good for ONE YEAR please take a look at the dates listed .. they have all expired a LONG time ago!

You may be able to fool some people with your silly acusations, but any real breeder can see right through your game!! We all know that *just* OFA certs, etc. don't improve a breed ... yes they are a TOOL that should be used, right next to carrier charts, LMX data, RC reports, etc. etc.

I refuse to get into a major debate here, I have already written many articles on this subject, and maybe you should take some time to read them?? http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm

This forum is for discussing the BASIC HONEST BREED INFORMATION that is on the main page ... period!!

Tina M. Barber _____________________________________________________________________________ Ok, well we are getting better. At least you have changed your story that CERF didn't recognize the Shiloh Shepherd to admitting they do.

Now lets try to get some more facts straight. You claim there are only 10 Shilohs listed where as there are 24. Of these unknown registries that you claim, 4 were from your own ISSR :-) As for them all being expired, wrong again. Many of the dogs no longer alive, or breeding, have expired, but there are 10 with current certifications.

Of course you refuse to get into a major debate as you continually show yourself to be wrong. You answer everything by providing more links to your personally written propaganda, they are boring to say the least.

As for this forum discussing Honest breed info, we are still awaiting you to provide verifiable sources to your NPOV's. And by the way, links to articles you have written are not verifiable sources. Verifiable sources for claims like you have made on the health testing of hips, heart and elbows would be sites like say OFA.

ShenandoahShilohs 23:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Comments on the article/content dispute
Please stop reverting the article -- a constantly changing article isn't helping anyone and those people involved may find themselves blocked as per the three revert rule. Could we try discussing the issues, one at a time, here? I would be happy to try to mediate any content disputes you may have. Lets work together to make this article better. Thanks. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 00:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: health testing requirments
Ah Sandra, so glad you're no longer too embarrassed to post! I'm afraid you've missd the point here though. The original point was made that TB claimed that ISSR requires these health testings. Tina Barber has edited the article to claim that ISSR breeders have to do mandatory testing of hips heart and elbows. No other registry has claimed that. I don't understand what the point of your post is here. It has nothing to do with the content of the article. It just shows that no one requires it.

Gloria 01:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC) _______________________________________________________________________________

There really is no need for you to be rude Gloria.

Sandra

Headline text
'Attention: Sandra [[User:69.11.10.188|

When indicating "passing" in your statement above, could you please respond to the following questions re:the various registries you have referenced:

1)What do you mean by "passing". Do the registries disallow breeding of dogs who have higher than your indicated ratings? How do the registries gather the individual scores of each of their breeding dogs? How do the registries "enforce" these requirements?

2) Could you state what testing organization(s)are accepted by each registry for these "passing" grades? Your "grades" indicate they are probably OFA scores, but how are Penn-Hip scores treated in the registries, since this testing is also being used with Shiloh Shepherds, from what has been previously mentioned in this discussion?

3) What are your references for your gathered information; that is to say, what are the web page addresses for the various registries where this info is stated as required/enforced/recommended?

4) Most importantly, since the term "required" calls for a resource by which adherence to this "requirement" can be enforced, could you also please provide the resources through which interested puppy buyers can confirm testing results for the individual dogs (or their parentage) they are interested in purchasing.  Whether claimed as required or not by whichever registries or breeders, these claims have no value (other than through "blind trust") to potential puppy buyers unless they have an opportunity to verify the results themselves through independent means.

In other words, if a reader wants to research the hip "grades" of the parents of a puppy they are considering buying (not generic group testing results) would you please indicate where that information can be found for each of the registries (NSBR, ISSR, TSSR)? Example:

NSBR - Hip registration is primarily through OFA. To view OFA's hip information on NSBR dogs, please view website address www.xxxxxx.org"

AND

ISSR - Hip registration is through OFA and Penn-Hip. To view OFA's hip information on ISSR dogs, please view website address www.xxxxxx.org. To view Penn-Hip's hip information on ISSR dogs, please view website address www.zzzzz.org"

AND

TSSR - Hip registration is conducted through XXXX, however individual results are provided to prospective and current puppy owners by submitting a Request for Health Results Form, available at www.TSSR.com/Request for Health info. 4)If verification of these requirements for the registries is not published nor can be obtained in writing, would you also please indicate this policy.

If you can only provide resource information for a registry you are affiliated with, I would then ask that other discussion participants (i.e. registry members or non-affiliated breeders) provide this information and their policies in answer to my requests above.

Thank you very kindly. M.Dùfy' __________________________________________________________________________________


 * Folks, this is not the place to discuss a particular breeder, their practices or policies. This is a page about a dog breed.  Please keep the page on topic.  Thanks .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 02:47, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Some questions and answers from the NSBR and CJ's Shilohs
The Truth? Edited on 12/15 by the NSBR Ms Barber wrote: This information was originally presented here by Jeff Bragg. It was a very unbiased page until certain factions started to play with it! Earlier today I added some TRUE information so that the reader could get an honest view about these dogs. I did not remove the "other" "registries" that had been listed by the dissidents, just clarified the FACTS! In all honesty, they should not even be listed, unless just to warn the public regarding the various groups that *claim* to be "registries" that are selling their mutts as Shiloh Shepherds because the *name* is not trademarked at this time. Although I have been awarded "common law" rights to my name, as has been proven via court documentation! Now for some FACTS. 1. The Shiloh Shepherd is *not* a "breed" because it is *not* recognized by any legitimate organization, like the AKC, CKC, FCI, UK, etc. We are still a breed UNDER DEVELOPMENT, and even listed as such on many independent web sites! 2. As the Breed Founder, I can assure you that I know exactly how many pups are born every year, and how many LEGITIMATE dogs are registered yearly!! In a united effort, the ISSR Licensed Breeders only produce approximately 200 pups per year ... yet many *other* pups are being sold as "Shiloh Shepherds" via the 'self proclaimed' "registries" promoted by the BYB's that have started them, just recently!!!

Barber. As the owner and registrar of the NSBR, I truly resent your claims that we are "dissidents", selling mutts, back yard breeders, or not entered into the ISSR database, therefore not true Shiloh Shepherds. Your comments are rude and very near to something that could result in a law suit. I am sure the TSSR and SSBA feel the same. '' :As a person who saw the need for a true registry, not just something that is owned and promoted by you, I also resent that you have implied that I personally am a BYB, again, heading for a slander law suit. You need to watch your language and show proper respect to everyone, even if they are not affiliated with you'''. ''':We walked away willingly in 1997 from your organization and have never wanted to approach you or your ISSR again. I personally watched in horror as you permitted dogs with bad hips be bred under your SP (still permissable) hip program.''' ''':The NSBR originally had the same rules as the ISSR (with the exception of the SP program), but we have raised the bar and still believe in the DNA program. Since you were the only offender when that DNA program was initiated in 1995, I can understand why you dropped that program with your ISSR. For you to say our registration rules are lax is inaccurate as they are at least as strict, if not more so than the ISSR rules that you developed.'''Respectfully, I ask that you not resort to slander for either the registries or the breeders who are not affiliated with you. Judy VanemanShilohshepherd 19:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................... == Edits - Yes, I admit that my name is Karen Ursel, that I am the secretary of the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and that I have edited the page several times this year in an attempt to return the article to the original words and intent of its author, J. Jeffrey Bragg.. 3. (a) Only dogs duly and actively registered within the ISSR may be referred to as Shiloh Shepherd™ dogs. Any dog which is not properly ISSR registered shall not be referred to by Defendants verbally or in writing, as a Shiloh Shepherd™ dog, or any variance or imitation of the name Shiloh Shepherd™. Trillhill

''::Judy Vaneman writes: Hello Karen. I have been reading this with interest. All of my dogs, with the exception of the dogs born since 1997 (when I walked away from Ms. Barber and the ISSR) were registered breedable dogs with the ISSR. Ms. Barber says (as do you) that now, they are no longer Shiloh Shepherd dogs, even though I have the original registration papers bearing all legitimate ISSR seals. For many years, I advertised my Shiloh Shepherds in Ms. Barber's advertisements in many dog magazines, and now she says they are no longer a breed. We advertised as a collective breed with her. Judy VanemanShilohshepherd 19:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)''

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Health Testing - Edit Tina M. Barber wrote; I don't think that this is the proper forum for this type of discussion, but since you insist ....

'''::Judy writes: I think this is an excellent place to talk about health and testing. I am sure Ms Barber doesn't agree as she doesn't do much of it!'''

TB wrote: 1. there is a lot more involved in "health testing" then just an OFA number ..

'''::Judy writes: I remember that Ms Barber always felt she knew more than the people at OFA who are paid very well to evaluate our hip x-rays. So this statement doesn't surprise me at all. She used to read our hip x-rays and would permit us to breed, even if the hips were bad (ISSR SP program - still permissable to breed.'''

TB wrote: actually, some people are fully aware of the fact that any dog can be brought to a vet - heart tested or hip/elbow x-rayed - then submitted to OFA, they do not require DNA (nor any kind of) proof that the dog is who he was claimed to be!!

'''::Judy writes: To this I must say that the ISSR has dropped their DNA program years ago. When we brought the DNA program to the ISSR, Ms Barber's puppies were the only casualties... seems they didn't have the parents that Ms Barber remembered them having. The NSBR and all of the others, except you and the ISSR, are all work closely with UC Davis And will not permit a dog to be bred without a DNA proving parentage.'''

TB wrote: Every ISSR puppy owner that chooses to register their pup receives a large certificate that lists that dogs pedigree, with full data. If they choose to purchase the extended pedigree from the TCCP, they have every right to do so (for a fee) and they can also receive D & R data on their dog. If they choose to breed that dog they can also order LMI & PER data on the "partners" they are considering ...

'''::Judy writes: Oh yes, I remember those reports well. We paid a huge amount of money for them, only to find out that our own dog was the only one listed out of the entire litter.'''

TB wrote: what they can't do is to snoop around, looking for info about other peoples dogs, so that they can utilize this information to gossip about other breeders or create a major brouhaha for the owners of those dogs. We look at this data the same way that a doctor/hospital would, and consider it *private* therefor we do not publish the dogs/owners names/data for to "public" viewing! There is NO need to expose individuals that may have a genetic/environmental problem for whatever reason! Then it is utilized by those that need to know specific details for proper selections of future breeding stock. PERIOD! It is not collected for a gossip tool, it is collected to provide us with important information that will enable us to produce better dogs!

'''::Judy writes: Ms Barber! We have to share the information or else the breed will be lost!!! If you have read our Shiloh list (which I know you have), I am sure you will see that we all share everything, we know that it has to be. And the only people who ever have anything in the line of gossip to say about our shared information would be from your group, under your guidance. This is not a doctors office, this is the future of the Shilohs!!'''

TB wrote: 4. In case you are not aware of this fact, specific testing alone can never provide a breeder with 100% certainty about anything! THIS IS A FACT!! OFA certified dogs still produce dysplastic puppies!! This too is a fact!! There are many web sites LMX data is a better indicator of the potential predisposition any particular litter combination may expect!

''':: Judy writes: Amen TB... this is the only thing I have read that has been written by you that is even close to the truth.'''

Re: Accusations
This was what I meant to post on Tuesday evening; instead of doing so I thought my time was better spent spending time with my dogs...I have not read what has been posted since. Nor will I. Last Friday I posted a list of 7 or 8 things that I thought we should all be able to agree upon. Someone (post unsigned) noted that in stating the ISSDC had free membership, that it was only for its first year (which is now ending). No one else (at least as of Tuesday) had disagreed. Perhaps this can be a start for the "history" section of this article if it even remains in existence.

'''Karen, just because no one commented does not mean anyone agrees. Your facts were still very slanted and about Clubs, registries, etc. Your facts were not about what this article is supposed to be, a neutral article about the Shiloh Shepherd with respect to all. It is not another TB Bio, or a debate over Clubs or Registries.''' What is not in dispute and a place to start is the fact that Tina Barber is the founder of the Shiloh Shepherd Breed.ShenandoahShilohs 04:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I was also accused of calling people who are breeding outside of the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry as puppy millers ("competition") on these pages. Since I 1. had never changed the Shiloh Shepherd Dog article to state this 2. had tried to be very reasonable in my posting on this discussion page I reviewed my posts on this page. I noticed that an earlier one had been amended by someone else to refer to puppy milling. I removed this from my post.

I also do not regard those breeding outside of the ISSR as any kind of "competition", either to the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd or to me personally. The consumer who takes the time to educate himself about the breed will realize that the non-ISSR breeders do virtually nothing to educate people about these dogs. Look at what happened at the Hartford Pet Expo. The ISSR Shiloh owners were there primarily to tell people about Shilohs and only secondarily to enter the show. We mingled with people constantly; the others were there primarily to show their dogs and kept to themselves. Our booth was constantly packed with people interested in learning more about the dogs. As for me personally, other than a litter that my son had with his Shelby2 two years ago in order to fulfill his co-ownership agreement, we have not had a litter since the spring of 2001. Yes, I strongly support the breed's founder and the original club and registry, but we are no longer actively breeding.

Karen, '''Again, this article isn't about who does what and attends what booth. It is not about Clubs, or Registries, it is about the Breed.''' ShenandoahShilohs 04:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC) I was further accused of having helped the breed's founder in unmasking the identify of Shiloh Lover and supporting her in contacting his employer. I did not hear about any of this until after the fact. I have signed my posts; I have identified who I am; unlike many. I don't have time to play further games on this page. The trash talk that has gone on on this page and the edits that have been made to the Shiloh Shepherd Dog article are an embarrassment to these dogs and to any reasonable person. Trillhill 04:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC)