Talk:Shin Megami Tensei IV

HELP UPLOADING INFOBOX PICTURE
The North American box art has been released and I need help uploading it onto Wikipedia. Help! (Eleventhblock (talk) 23:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC))

Reminder regarding spoilers
Wikipedia guidelines state clearly that "it is not acceptable to delete information from an article because you think it spoils the plot". Blanking pages and removing information with no valid reason is akin to vandalism. Guidelines also state that no spoiler warnings are allowed. Deal with it. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 11:10, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

The "Story" previously was simply just a list of every major spoiler in the entire game. It did not flow smoothly, and did not serve to educate anyone on what this game is about. Spoilers where necessary are fine, but in this case it was no where near acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.196.206.200 (talk) 21:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Please read the guidelines on spoilers and disclaimers, because you are clearly ignorant of them. There is no room for interpretation, you are simply wrong and going against the rules. Also, be aware that personal attacks are also not allowed on Wikipedia. Stay civil. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 02:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.26.29.26 (talk)

I am sorry, but spoilers for the sake of spoilers serve absolutely no purpose. This article currently looks like someone is just showing off that they know all the endings to this game. That's what the story section is right now -- a list of every major spoiler in the game and nothing else. If you think you're somehow justified in keeping all the useless spoilers in there, surely you're some form of troll. If you wish that info to be available on this article, put it in its own subsection marked "endings" or something. No one goes to a wikipedia page on a game to see a list of every possible ending to a game and nothing else. It needs context, or it needs to go.

The spoilers are not being removed just because they are spoilers. They are being removed because they are completely irrelevant.


 * For anyone else seeing this: Refer to the talk page's history. As you can see, for some reason, 72.26.29.26 is seeing fit to edit other people's comments, so everything before this comment (and even this one if he edits it later) might have been modified by him. For some reason my own last comment was undone and then restored and I really have no idea as to what he or whoever else it is is trying to do. But either way, to 72.26.29.26 and the other people who keep removing information, once again, READ THE GUIDELINES. I've linked to them twice before. Your "they're useless spoilers" is NOT a valid reason and what you are doing is plain vandalism. Whether they're "useless" or "irrelevant" is hardly something for someone to decide on their own. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 08:03, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh and I would also like to add that sock and meat puppetry are against the rules as well, so keep that in mind. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 08:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

This is not vandalism. Sorry if I am unfamiliar with how wikipedia works (I happened to accidentally delete your comment earlier, though I wasn't the one who left the insult toward you, as you'd see if you checked the history) but I happen to know enough to tell that you are trolling. You keep adding this annoying list, and the story section basically looks like: - a little background of the game - ENDING ONE - ENDING TWO - ENDING THREE etc... It is completely pointless and you need to stop. You can quote rules at me all day, but the stuff you're wanting to keep is just ugly and irrelevant to the article. Go look at any other game's story section on this site, none of them have one line sentences telling you every major spoiler in the entire game. They explain the gist of the plot, maybe include a summary of the ending. Nothing this absurd. No rule justifies what you're trying to do. As I said, I am not removing these because they are spoilers, I am removing them because it is blatant trolling, or even vandalism you could call it. What you are trying to do serves absolutely no one, and I guarantee you that no one on earth looking for info about this game on wikipedia wants to see all of that mess you keep adding back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.196.206.200 (talk) 08:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If you don't like the way it looks, edit or rewrite it. That's how Wikipedia works. But just plain removing content isn't valid editing, it's the very definition of "deconstructive". And PLEASE just read the guidelines. Once again: Guidelines on spoilers and spoiler warnings. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 08:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, 74.196.206.200 left this little outburst on my talk page (it's been removed since); I figured I ought to address it here. The exact quote, copied over:
 * ''"Are you kidding me? Are you absolutely kidding me? Now I see why I never use this site. Effing douches think they own the place. Man, if you don't get banned within the next week by ANYONE ELSE WHO VIEWS YOUR EDITS AND REALIZES HOW BATSH*T INSANE YOU ARE, I'll be completely surprised. Carry on with your silly miserable life, yo."
 * In regards to that: No, I am not kidding. If you're going to edit Wikipedia, READ THE RULES AND GUIDELINES, and edit according to said rules and guidelines. It's not that difficult, is it? And as for the rest of that, well, I think it speaks for itself well enough. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 08:54, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * One more thing: Abuse of tags is also considered vandalism. See: Wikipedia:Vandalism. And this is especially so if you do it solely so that you can then use said tag as an excuse to remove content as has been done before on this article. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 09:13, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I wasn't the one who added that tag, just so we're clear. 74.196.206.200 (talk) 09:23, 13 July 2013


 * I added it, and I don't think it was in "bad taste". There were genuinely some unnecessary details in there.  I have removed them and fixed the flow of things a bit, but it still needs improvement. --66.186.65.35 (talk) 15:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC) (UTC)


 * Not editing the story section and instead just putting a tag there in the middle of a situation where there are users completely ignoring guidelines persisting in removing the entire thing because of "spoilers" is hardly anything but bad faith. If you think there are genuinely unnecessary details in there then remove them! You can edit things! That's how Wikipedia works.


 * You said you removed "unnecessary details" and "fixed the flow of things" but all you seemed to do was remove references to the three masked men and Yuriko- Both of which are very important plot points in the game. The Black Samurai/Yuriko/Lilith is the entire basis for the first half of the game where the Samurai's main mission is to pursue her, and the three masked men = archangels are central to the plot to the endgame which is entirely about them and Lucifer. Looking at it subjectively, you didn't fix anything, you just removed two of the most important parts of the entire story!


 * The other post you made on this page about Kaga suggests that you haven't even played the game, because she isn't even in the majority of the game, only appearing once in the Sunshine area before immediately dying. I really have to ask: Have you played the game? Because if you haven't I really don't see how you'd know what details are "unnecessary" and what aren't.


 * Either way I've went through the story section a few times and did my best to cut it down to the bare minimum, if you still think there's room for improvement please actually state why you think so instead of just saying that it "still needs improvement" and slapping it with a tag so as to give people like 74.196.206.200 an excuse to blank it (Also, once more, abuse of tags is also considered vandalism. See: Wikipedia:Vandalism). 175.134.44.29 (talk) 07:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You're obviously wrong with that. Random editor CAN add the tag without improving the article themselves because the article reads confusing to them in the first place. You have no privilege to prohibit others from questioning the content and adding the tag after making some substantial contribution to the article. The reason the story section needs mass trimming isn't because of spoiler, but lack of WP:tertiary source to justify its encyclopedic value to Wikipedia, IOW there is no reliable 3rd party source to document why the story of SMT4 matters, unlike Romeo and Juliet. If you're so concern of SMT4's story, go to Megami Tensei Wikia, it is the better place to share the information which is normally not suitable for Wikipedia due to citation requirement. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 08:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I didn't say that people can't add a tag, I said they ought to state their reasoning behind it if they're going to add one. Not to mention 66.186.65.35 was talking about how he added said tag because of the summary containing too many "unnecessary details", and then identified two of the most important points in the plot as such. Also WP:tertiary source is not very relevant in this case, as this isn't about research. While we're talking about guidelines, though, I suggest you go read How to write a plot summary. 175.134.44.29 (talk) 15:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I suggest you to differentiate between policy, guideline and essay first. "How to write a plot summary" is a mere essay but Wikipedians are all REQUIRED to cite reliable sources to back the content they submit. In our case, the SMT4 story section has no reliable source at all, so everyone has the privilege to remove the whole section if they think it has no encyclopedic value. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * No reliable source at all... except for the game, right? 175.134.44.29 (talk) 03:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

More details needed
Information on the following should be added to this article. --66.186.65.35 (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Kaga, who is seen as the opposite to Tayama for the majority of the game.
 * A better description of how the alignment split happens, rather than only describing the final bosses.
 * You mean Kaga who dies five minutes after appearing and does nothing at all? I mean she literally introduces herself, runs off, and then comes back during the next boss battle to help you out and die in the process. The opposite to Tayama is Yuriko/Lilith, not Kaga. Did you even play the game? Seibusinzyukusenn (talk) 02:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

First sentence
Are the words "Japanese" and "post-apocalyptic" necessary here? No other VG article uses a similar form, and honestly it's a bit confusing. The former is especially so since it could be referring to a language. If it must stay, I recommend "Japanese-developed" instead. The articles for II and III also have the phrase "post-apocalyptic" in the first sentence. MaribelGame (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that's just you? It's not confusing to me at least, no different from introducing something as a "Japanese horror film" - nationality / genre / media, a very common formulation on Wikipedia (Ring (film), Mad Max (film)).  Existing sentence reads fine to me.  Admittedly, "Japanese" does get called out much more often for video games than for other nationalities or other works, but that's because there's a much more distinctive Japanese style of video games that isn't necessary to call out elsewhere (e.g. Populous (video game) is not closely tied to "British video games" so that isn't a super relevant detail to call out).  SnowFire (talk) 19:58, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It's worth remembering that a "Japanese role-playing game" has a distinct meaning. I would however suggest "Shin Megami Tensei IV is a Japanese role-playing game...set in a post-apocalyptic world" or similar. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:53, 10 March 2021 (UTC)