Talk:Ship of Theseus

Aristotle
This is why I added a section on the end on Aristotole's Four Causes. Even though the material cause changes, the formal cause remains the same. The Formal Cause is basically the design of the object in this system, while the Material Cause is the matter which happens to make it up. Aristotle gives greater presidence to Formal Cause when defining being. --Marcusscotus1 05:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Seconded. The Four Causes clearly lay out four different means of correlating identity. While it is still up to the individual to consider which causes take precedence over others, each one can be clearly applied to the Ship of Theseus "paradox".
 * The final cause, like the formal cause, remains constant over time: the ship is meant to serve as a museum piece, and that does not change. This is not true of the second ship, as its final cause did not exist when the "original" Ship of Theseus was introduced to the museum, and is slightly distinct from the final cause of that ship. (It can be noted that the final cause of the original ship changes when it stops conveying Theseus about and starts rotting in a museum. This is directly related to one of my favored solutions to the questions posed by the ship, but this is a separate matter entirely.)
 * The efficient cause also remains similar, but not identical, over time: the original ship was formed through creative carpentry (the construction of a new ship), and is maintained through restorative carpentry (the restoration of an old ship). The second ship is formed with constructive carpentry, but it cannot be said that the efficient cause is the same, because the materials used to build it were restored in a process that did not exist when the ship was first built.
 * I think that the system of the Four Causes is an excellent model for tracking possible changes in identity, and I think that it's absolutely worth considering as part of this thought experiment. It seems this is somehow a point of contention, fourteen years later, as all references to the Four Causes are being removed. --73.225.234.34 (talk) 22:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * One of wikipedia's core content policies is No Original Research. I agree that it's an interesting idea, but this and all other "interesting ideas" about the Ship of Theseus need to have significant coverage in a secondary academic source to merit inclusion in this article. Original research that is only bolstered by a citation to an ancient source will be removed and should not be re-added. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * None of this original research. Julius Moravcsik, one of the best ancient philosophy scholar who was also very interested in issues of philosophy of language, mind, reality; quite literally developed the same explanation. His AITIAtional theory of lexical semantics was well received by Chomsky, Pustejovsky a computer scientist developed this into the theory of Generative Lexicon. I have added an explanation of puzzle from a Moravcsik/Chomsky AITIA-tional internal semantics pov, in the resolution part of the article. With reference to Moravcsik’s original articles and books. Hopefully this does not get deleted as it was immidiately within 6 minutes by some edition, who i think has no interest or understanding of philosophy or semantics. Tinkeringwiki (talk) 16:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Please stop re-adding this material if you aren't going to add any more sources to support how this is directly related to ship of theseus. Yes, the cited source tying Chomsky to Theseus does cite Moravcsik as an inspiration of Chomsky's, but that's not an excuse to launch into a long digression on Moravcsik's tangentially related theory, which doesn't even talk about Theseus! Tying these two together appears to represent your own conclusions, which is considered WP:SYNTH - ideally you should find someone who published a well-cited paper or book applying Moravcsik's theory directly to the Ship of Theseus, if it exists, and paraphrase their findings WP:SUMMARYSTYLE here. Furthermore, describing theories in technical language and using such terms as "dia ti" or "AITIAtional" with no explanation is not helpful to the average English reader, who doesn't know Ancient Greek and probably has only a passing understanding if any of Aristotle's Four causes or Hylomorphism.
 * Rather than edit warring over the course of months, how about you make some modifications to your addition to add any sources that actually draw the conclusions you are presenting here, if you have them, and post it here on the talk page where you can get feedback on them? Or, if you're so intent on talking about the "Aitiational theory" instead of the actual topic of this article, which is the Ship of Theseus, how about you go to Julius Moravcsik and add some information about it (from secondary sources!) over there instead? &#32;- car chasm (talk) 16:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I am unsure what you are chiding me for. Since you yourself give a good source of Chomsky’s theory being used as an explanation of the paradox. What does the word direct mean? No one is publishing papers in the Journal of philosophy titled “Internalist semantics explanation of Ship of Theseus” at max some semantic theory is proposed and corollary of that is it parlays our uneasiness in a long existing philosophical puzzle.
 * If you read my edit, I took time and space to explain what aitia is what dia ti is? I also gave a long explanation how of the puzzle can be looked at in the case of book.
 * You seem to suggest that the Aitiational theory which I talk about is tangentially related. In these disciplines of linguistics and philosophy if there has been proposed any form of internalist semantics, it has been done by the three people which I mentioned, if you read their books they cite one another. In one BBS commentary Chomsky called Moravcsik work as a source of clarification, no one can miss the fact he is quite literally using framing based explanation in puzzles of reference.
 * But none of this comes close to your justification of deleting my additions, “unjustified readdition of poorly sourced material”. I cited a book published by Csli publications and Cup by two very good philosophers. It does not even come close to being poorly cited, unless your criteria for sourcing is wrt to the article is does the phrase “ship of Theseus” occur.
 * I like to keep my google account seperate for various tasks, so I end up logging into Wikipedia after some time, thus it took me long time to respond. Tinkeringwiki (talk) 19:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

There is no ship
There aren't any sources for this section. The link to Treachery of Images doesn't fully explain the argument. Seems more like a musing from an user than a scholar position. Should it be erased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maracutaia (talk • contribs) 06:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

The USS Constitution is an inadequate example.
Not only does the "gradual loss of identity" lack sufficient sources, comparing the ship of Theseus to the USS Constitution is an inadequate comparison. One is defined by its ownership of the titular Theseus, the other is self-defined as its own entity. Replacing the bed of Theseus would make it no longer the bed of Theseus, but replacing a bed on the USS Constitution makes it still a part of the USS Constitution due to the transitive properties of identity.

I suggest there should be a connection to the concept of general semantics in this article.
After reading this article it occurred to me that there seemed to be a number of similarities between this concept and at least some parts of "general semantics". Basically "Fred(1970)" is not the same as Fred(2010), despite the fact that they are still 'the same' person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics

HTH

203.96.132.249 (talk) 00:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Bruce
 * From an entirely non-specialist perspective, yeah, it looks like those concepts bear some relevance to each other, at least tangentially. I think for that connection to be made in the article itself, we'd have to first find reliable sources in which experts make that connection directly. Then there'd probably be the even trickier task of determining whether that connection is relevant, notable, or pervasive enough to be included in this article. We can't catalogue every academic treatment of the Ship of Theseus.
 * It could potentially go in the "See also" section. Still, I'm not personally knowledgable enough to confidently say it belongs there. Wemedgefrodis (talk) 20:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Trivia
It feels like the "applications" section is close to being a list of miscellaneous information. The part about Ship of Theseus bands (though interesting) is the clearest example of this. It probably also can be considered original research, although it's hard to know for sure without a citation. Worth keeping an eye on. Wemedgefrodis (talk) 20:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

False Dichotomy
I wonder whether this is simply a false dichotomy: by posing the question as a predicate that can only be true or false, one excludes consideration of a continuum of identity. (One could argue that from moment to moment the ship is still mostly "the same" in both materials and design, but over the course of a century the percentage of materials decreases markedly, even if the design remains substantially the same. Then deciding whether two observations are "really the same thing" is simply a matter of choosing a threshold over some combination of those two proportions.)

Martin Kealey (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Biology
An interesting article!

I thought about the fact that living organisms consist of cells that die and are renewed over time as well ...

https://www.livescience.com/33179-does-human-body-replace-cells-seven-years.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.225.161 (talk) 11:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Heraclitus and Plato do not talk about the Ship of Theseus
There are two references offered in this article to substantiate the claim that Heraclitus and Plato both discussed the puzzle of the Ship of Theseus. If you read the sources, however, you will not find any discussion of the Ship of Theseus. The reference to Heraclitus is a statement of a belief that "all things move and nothing remains still." - that has some adjacent issues of persistence of identity, but it is not a discussion on the Ship of Theseus (incidentally, this passage isn't a discussion on the philosophical ideas but a speculative etymology of the name Hestia). The reference to Plato is about whether something can be encircled by a thing it is encircling. These references should be deleted and the earliest reference should be the Plutarch unless there are other sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.155.120.196 (talk) 00:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Trademark of Theseus
I think it would be the same ship because it would still be called the ship of Theseus. I mean the let's say that the Linux kernel has had all its code changed and not one code is the original from 1994 91 or something is it still the same colonel copyright wise the code is different it's changed it's not the there's nothing from the original but it's still called the Linux kernel because the trademark the name it is given is still the same so technically I would say the ship is the same in name only since copyright wise or every board or every code has been changed so that nothing is original but the name is still the same Slinkyw (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Mention in VSauce video

 * "Do Chairs Exist? (at 20m 37s) – Vsauce (September 14, 2021)
 * Tweet by @Wikipedia from January 21, 2020

Noted this for anyone interested. Seeaver (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Waves
If there's a good primary source making the connection, a good example might be waves. When we watch a wave of water propagate across the sea, we see it as a single moving "object" (of a sort), though it might be made of totally different particles of water after a few seconds.


 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Deep_water_wave.gif
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shallow_water_wave.gif
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mouvement_dans_une_vague_en_eau_peu_profonde.gif

Tophtucker (talk) 22:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh I guess the existing river examples in the article are pretty close to that. (Thanks Visnu, my bad!) I guess rivers vs waves is like "constituent parts flowing through (sorta) stationary whole" vs "whole flowing across (sorta) stationary constituent parts". Tophtucker (talk) 22:31, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a nice idea, but we need support from reliable sources. If there's nothing linking this specifically to Plutarch's Ship of Theseus or Hobbes' treatment of it, it might be more appropriate on a more general page about mereology or philosophy of identity. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 15:31, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

River refence removed creates dangling reference
The sentence in the "Four-dimensionalism" section that begins "The aforementioned river" has lost it aforementioned reference with a recent edit that removed the "No identity over time" section that introduced the river dispute. 71.213.182.112 (talk) 21:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I wonder there is no reference to Heraclitus' saying "No man ever steps in the same river twice. For it's not the same river and he's not the same man." - because it seems to have the very same point. 80.99.222.143 (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Transcribing Hobbes quote
I can't find a transcription of the quote from Hobbes, so I'm transcribing it here for reference from archive.org for potential future quoting in the article because it's often hard to tell from the academic sources which parts are Hobbes' claims and which are the analysis. the whole excerpt is certainly too long to include in the article and uses technical language, but I think it won't be too confusing to make some quotes from it.

But the same Body may at different times be Compared with itself. And from hence springs a  great controversy among Philosophers  about  the  Beginning  of  Individuation namely,  in what  sense  it  may  be conceived  that a Body  is at one time the same,  at  another  time  not  the  same  it  was  formerly. For example, whether a  Man  grown  old  be  the  same  Man  he  was  whilst  he  was young,  or  another  Man,  or  whether  a  City  be  in  different  Ages  the Same, or another City. Some place  Individuity in the Unity  of  Matter,  others  in  the  Unity  of  Form,  and  one  says  it  consists in  the Unity  of  the Aggregate  of  all  the  Accidents  together. For Matter,  it is pleaded,  that  a  lump  of  Wax, whether  it  be Spherical or Cubical, is the same  Wax,  because  the  same  Matter. For Form,  that  when a  Man  is  grown  from  an  Infant  to  be  an  Old  Man,  though  his  Matter  be  changed,  yet  he  is  still  the  same  Numerical  Man;  for  that  Identity  which  cannot  be  attributed  to  the  Matter,  ought  probably to  be  ascribed  to  the  Form. For the  Aggregate  of  Accidents  no  Instance  can  be  made ;  but  because  when  any  new  Accident  is  generated,  a  new  Name  is  commonly  imposed  on  the  Thing,  therefore he that  assigned  this  cause  of  Individuity,  thought  the  thing  itself also was  become  another  thing. According to  the  first  Opinion, He that  sins,  and  he  that  is  punished  should  not  be  the  same  Man,  by reason  of  the  perpetual  flux  and  change  of  Mans  Body,  nor should  the  City  which  makes  Laws  in  one  Age,  and  abrogates them  in  another,  be  the  same  City ;  which  were  to  confound  all Civil  Rights. According to  the  second  Opinion,  two  Bodies  existing  both  at  once,  would  be  one  and  the  same  Numerical  Body  for if  (for  example)  that  Ship  of  Theseus  (concerning  the  Difference whereof,  made  by  continual  reparation,  in  taking  out  the  old Planks,  and  putting  in  new,  the  Sophisters of Athens  were  wont to  dispute)  were,  after  all  the  Planks  were  changed,  the  same  Numerical  Ship  it  was  at  the  beginning;  and  if  some  Man  had  kept the  Old  Planks  as  they  were  taken  out,  and  by  putting  them  afterwards  together  in  the  same  order, had  again  made  a  Ship  of  them, this  without  doubt  had  also  been  the  same  Numerical  Ship  with that  which  was  at  the  beginnings  and  so  there  would  have  been two  Ships  Numerically  the  same,  which  is  absurd. But according to the third Opinion, Nothing would be the same it was, so  that  a Man  standing,  would  not  be  the  same  he  was sitting;  nor  the  Water  which  is  in  the  Vessel,  the  same  with  that  which  is  poured  out of  it. Wherefore the  beginning  of  Individuation  is  not  always to be  taken  either  from  Matter  alone, or  from  Form  alone.

But we must  consider  by  what  name  any  thing  is  called,  when we inquire  concerning  the  Identity  of  it;  for it is  one  thing to ask concerning Socrates whether he be the same  Man, and another to ask  whether  he  be  the  same  Body; for his Body when he is Old, cannot be the same it was when he was an Infant, by reason of the difference  of  Magnitude; for  One  Body has  always One and the same Magnitude; yet  nevertheless he may be the same Man. And therefore whensoever the Name by which it  is  asked  whether  a thing  be  the  same  it  was,  is  given  it  for  the  Matter  only,  then  if the  Matter  be  the  same,  the  thing  also  is  Individually  the  same  ;  as the  Water  which  was  in  the  Sea,  is  the  same  which  is  afterward in the Cloud, and any Body is the same,  whether  the  parts  of  it be  put  together,  or  dispersed,  or  whether  it  be  congealed  or  dissolved. Also if  the  Name  be  given  for  such  Form  as is  the  beginning  of Motion,  then  as  long  as  that  Motion  remains  it  will  be  the  same Individual  thing-,  as  that  Man  will  be  always  the  same,  whole  Actions and  Thoughts  proceed  all  from  the  same  beginning  of  Motion  namely,  that  which  was  in  his  generation;  and  that  will  be the  same  River,  which  flows  from  one  and  the  same  Fountain, whether  the  same  Water,  or  other  Water, or  something  else  than Water  flow  from  thence-and  that  the  same  City, whose  Acts  proceed  continually  from  the  same  Institution ,  whether  the  Men  be the  same  or  no. Lastly, if  the  Name  be  given  for  some  Accident, then  the  Identity   of  the  thing  will  depend  upon  the  Matter ;  for  by the  taking  away  and  supplying  of  Matter,  the  Accidents  that  were are  destroyed,  and  other  new  ones  are  generated, which  cannot  be the  same  Numerically;  so  that  a  Ship,  which  signifies  Matter  so  figured,  will  be  the  same,  as  long  as  the  Matter  remains  the  same ; but  if  no  part  of  the  Matter  be  the  same,  then  it  is  Numerically, another  Ship;  and  if  part  of  the  Matter  remain,  and  part  be  changed,  then  the  Ship  will  be  partly  the  same,  and  partly  not  the same.

It's from 1656, so it's definitely in the public domain and I can quote the whole thing here without a copyright violation. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Merging back in the list, removing the fancruft
I've merged back in the List of Ship of Theseus examples and removed the original research. That page was accumulating a variety of non-notable examples, and more concerning, even some scholarly sources that belong on this article! In the process of merging I also removed most of the non-notable examples. Hopefully removing all of the pop culture references will discourage people from being inspired to add their own pop culture references. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 23:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Japanese Shinto Shrines
Currently, the article discusses Shinto shrines being replaced with new wood every twenty years. A quick Google search suggests that this may be specific to the Ise Jingu Shrine in Japan and is not present at every Shinto shrine as the text suggests. Anyone with more knowledge want to comment and/or update? SoroSuub1 (talk) 02:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This seems plausible, and the old claim is uncited. I've updated the text to only reference the Ise Grand Shrine, and pulled some citations from that article to support it. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 18:09, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

How much sand in a pile?
Really this is the same question. If you replaced one plank on the ship, most people would still consider it the same ship, just repaired, as ships are. Same perhaps with two planks. If you replaced every plank, perhaps it's not the same ship, although if that happens gradually, it might be. That's the argument.

But what if you took a grain of sand away from a pile? Is it still a pile? If you took away all but one grain?

These are both ancient philosophical questions, but in many ways the same question.

84.68.162.176 (talk) 13:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

is this really a paradox?
its a philosophical question of definitions really. What makes it a paradox? Gjxj (talk) 17:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It's a significant problem for exactly how you define "same" and "different"... AnonMoos (talk) 18:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Article of Theseus
It has been pointed out on reddit that since this article was first posted, it has been edited in its entirety. According to the Reddit post:

"the "Ship of Theseus" article has been edited 1792 times since it was created in July of 2003. At present, 0% of the phrases in the original article remain."

Not only is this delightfully meta, it's a pretty good example of the philosophical concept in action. It might be worth mentioning in the article, if Reddit posts are allowed as citations. Sgrandpre (talk) 06:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * If a reliable source reports on this example, it might be able to be included in the article, but per WP:USERGENERATED, a Reddit post wouldn't be an appropriate source. miranda  3 06:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just check the oldest revision of this article and compare their similarities using an online tool, it's not that hard to do your own reps. 103.156.60.132 (talk) 07:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That is not how Wikipedia works. Content on Wikipedia is required to be sourced from reliable, independent resources. What you're suggesting is original research, which is explicitly against policy per WP:NOR. miranda  3 07:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia T&Cs inhibit proof of concept on the existence of the Ship of Threseus itself, as the evidence is itself. The search (and further revisions) continue for another 2000 years Halfang (talk) 12:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This seems like a place where WP:IAR could apply. I don't believe an article would be written about this, but a mention of it would improve the article. Bbf242 (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This factoid is trivial, and it's probably true of a large proportion of all Wikipedia articles. I don't think it improves the article in any significant way, nor does it help the reader understand the topic. Furthermore, depending on what "phrase" is interpreted to mean, the factoid is arguably not even true. The phrase "same ship" occurs in both the original and the current article. CodeTalker (talk) 18:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The factoid is trivial, but it relates to the article's concept. I don't know if that actually justifies its inclusion, but it's certainly a way of applying the idea to a real-world situation in a meta way. HaapsaluYT (talk) 23:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've decided to be bold and include a reference to this trivial fact in the form of an example.
 * I think it doesn't run afoul of wiki guidelines and is done in the spirit of MOS:TRIVIA's suggestion to incorporate it into the article instead of a separate trivia list.
 * But I'm curious how others feel about this and if people know of ways to improve my addition. ConcurrentState (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Being bold is one thing; re-adding content that has been added and removed nine times over the past 3 months is edit warring. As I noted above, what the content claims is false, since there is at least one phrase remaining from the original article, so regardless of whether it is a useful example (in my opinion it is not), it is incorrect and should not be in the article. CodeTalker (talk) 17:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I came to the idea independently after seeing a social media post about it. Verified if it was true, checked the revisions all the way back to the beginning of the year and didn't see any revisions related to this, came here to the talk page to see if it was mentioned and if there was consensus on it.
 * Except for you, there was no consensus on not including it and the general consensus was that it would be fun to include but there were issues with policy.
 * So I devised a creative way of including it that doesn't breach policy and doesn't even need for it to be true, making your hemming and hawing about what constitutes a "phrase" irrelevant.
 * I will self-revert so that we can discuss my revision further and to show good faith.
 * However, I do suggest that next time you don't come in so hot, leave the dramatics about edit warring at the door and practice some WP:AGF.
 * Because even if there were revisions pertaining to this, I could've just as well missed it or forgot to check, that doesn't mean I'm edit warring. ConcurrentState (talk) 18:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I apologize if my response seemed "hot" to you. There was so much activity related to this topic last December that I did assume that you were aware of the previous activity, but if you only looked back to the beginning of 2024 you could have missed that. In fact, it was reverted at least 8 times by 7 different editors in December: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, so there certainly doesn't seem a clear consensus to include it. It's also hard to see how you could have "verified" that it's true when it is in fact not true, and I pointed out that fact just above your post in this discussion, but I accept that you must have overlooked that, as well as the fact that I was not the only editor in this thread to object to the content. Thank you for self-reverting. I am open to further discussion about the appropriateness of this content in the article. CodeTalker (talk) 19:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted. I also want to apologize for my "hot" and generally unfriendly tone.
 * I received your reply on mobile and should've instead taken a step back and taken the time to calmly assess the situation with the goal of understanding it in full before replying in a respectful manner.
 * I don't necessarily agree with the rest of your points, but seeing as this seems to be a contentious matter and apparently something that has been causing a disturbance last December, I think I'll instead create a RfC once I get home to ensure the matter can be put to rest, and so that 3 months from now someone else's doesn't show up and walk into the same pitfall I did. ConcurrentState (talk) 19:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Joke
https://www.sheldoncomics.com/comic/ship-of-theseus/

This post has been brought to you from the department of fun. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 08:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

RfC on integrating trivia in article in the form of an example (or in other ways)
There are four questions:
 * 1) Should the article integrate the trivia that the article is an example of the Ship of Theseus in the form of a hypothetical example that explains the concept of the Ship of Theseus? Example: Special:Diff/1212574348
 * 2) Is the trivia even true?
 * 3) Alternatively, should the trivia be integrated another way?
 * 4) Additionally and separate from the trivia question, should the article include an example of the thought experiment in the first place?

Prior discussion can be found at Talk:Ship of Theseus ConcurrentState (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. No, because it is false and wouldn't be any more helpful that the existing examples even if it were true. 2. As I noted in the linked discussion, the trivia is not true; the phrase "same ship" appeared in the first version of the article and still appears. 3. I think this is too vague to be answerable. 4. Yes, the article should include examples and already does. The "Historical examples" section contains seven examples. CodeTalker (talk) 19:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Let me answer what I think is the real question being asked here. The Twitter post at https://twitter.com/depthsofwiki/status/1735800801455419697 is not a reliable source, nor is it factually correct, nor would it be allowed in even if it was a reliable source and factually correct because of WP:NOTTRIVIA. Any back door attempts to insert the claims from that tweet into this article should be removed on sight, as should any other similar material that is not from an academic source specifically providing an example of the basic philosophical concept. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 14:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * By default, WP:SELFREFs should be avoided. I don't see a good reason to make an exception here. jlwoodwa (talk) 20:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are folks here ready to close this RfC?
 * I see three comments that oppose the Wiki trivia example and I agree: My view is that the article should provide an example (or more than one) from the best available reliable sources. So, no on #1 and yes on #2. ProfGray (talk) 14:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Did you perhaps mean no on #1 and yes on #4?
 * Still, I think you can close the RfC.
 * I was the one that created the RfC (got a fresh rename, I'll highlight it on my user page and signature at a later time), and you wouldn't be stepping on my toes if you'd close it, insofar that was a concern on your end.
 * It seems that the consensus is against implementing the trivia (whether the trivia is true or not) and I have peace with that.
 * My main goal was to get a consensus to be able to refer to that, should the topic come up again in the future, regardless of outcome.
 * On a related note: could we highlight at the top of the talk page that this topic has been considered and a consensus has been reached, so that when an eager editor without knowledge of the history will be alerted when they visit the talk page? I'm currently on mobile so it's a bit painful to look for a suitable template to achieve this. Turquoise (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I meant yes on #4, as you said. Thanks for your response. I will close the RfC and I appreciate your flexibility. Not sure if there's a template that can keep track of an RfC at top, to avoid future archiving. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 16:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Informal closure -- Consensus was reached to use historical example(s) but not the suggested trivia example using the article itself. WP guidelines states: "If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable." For this reason, I'm not inserting a closure template. ProfGray (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Good call. I must admit that I got a chuckle out of the tweet (I like pretty much everything at https://twitter.com/depthsofwiki/ ), but was disapointed to find that they lied and that we have not, in fact, replaced 100% of the article.
 * As for the archiving, placing...


 * ...at the top of a talk page section "pins" the section stops (some?) archive bots from archiving the section. This should not work, because comments are always supposed to be ignored, but Wikipedia is special and does not have to follow the rules that the rest of the Internet has to follow. Get off my lawn, you damn kids! --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 12:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Removed examples of ships
I'm removing all of the ships and aircraft per WP:NOT - taken to a logical conclusion, nearly every plane or aircraft made with either ancient *or* modern technology could be thought of as an "example" by this criterion.

In general if something isn't specifically an example of an identity-over-time *paradox* it doesn't belong here. Psychastes (talk) 02:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The value I saw in the USS Constitution, DC-3, and B-52 examples was from the perspective of applied philosophy / descriptive philosophy. As in: when confronted with an actual real world question of whether a ship or aircraft was the same or new, what decision was made and what was the logic for it?  If I’ve understood where you’re coming from correctly: How was the paradox resolved in those cases? Spectrum629 (talk) 08:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, the paradox isn't really "resolved" for any cases just because they're considered the same object, because it's a philosophical thought experiment that potentially applies to *all* cases of objects that have their parts interchanged over time but are considered the same object. Which potentially includes "every river" and "every human ship/plane/construct with interchangeable parts" and "every band with no members from the original lineup" and "all sports teams" and so on.
 * And the problem with listing out examples is that it encourages other people to list out more examples, which turns the article very quickly from "a philosophical thought experiment and the way it's been interpreted by philosophers throughout history" to "an indiscriminate list of bands, ships, rivers, buildings, and other objects." Psychastes (talk) 18:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's certainly a very good point about not wanting the article to be distracted by listing of examples.
 * How might the article be revised to better bring out the scoping of what the Ship of Theseus is about? Because I'll confess that when I learned about the DC-3 - BT-67 conversions, I thought "That's an elegant resolution to the Ship of Theseus: the set of all BT-67 aircraft is the same as the set of all DC-3 aircraft from the perspective of type certification, but each BT-67 instance is a new aircraft from the perspective of flight hours". The descriptive philosophy (that I saw) was in the regulatory authorities working through that logic. Likewise for the governing authority of the USS Constitution making the determination that it was the same ship. Spectrum629 (talk) 12:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think probably the next step for improving this article is expanding more of the philosophical interpretations of the thought experiment, and some of the history of interpretation. There's a book about Aquinas' interpretation and couple SEP articles linked in the bibliography and further reading sections, and a few other sources that are there as well that are cited but could probably be expanded on. Ultimately the "Ship of Theseus" is a philosophical problem about material composition so I think anything more about how various philosophers have tried to resolve that problem would be appropriate even if they don't explicitly mention the ship. Psychastes (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That sounds promising. If there was something like the following, I think it would help:
 * ‘There exist real world objects that have been replaced incrementally in the manner of the Ship, and people have made decisions about whether these objects are “the same” or “new”. However the Ship of Theseus paradox is … (and go onto say what it does)’
 * This would acknowledge the existence of those objects - possibly reducing the impetus to list them - and move onto the true issue. Spectrum629 (talk) 07:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)