Talk:Shirō Ishii

Ishii vs. Mengele
Why was Ishii allowed to get away with his crimes while Mengele was hunted down since both of these individuals conducted ghastly human experimentations? Between the two, Ishii was much worse since he essentially conducted biological/chemecal warfare in Manchuria, and its remnants can still be felt in China today. Was Mengele's experimentations less scientifically valuable to the Allies than Ishii's? Anyways, I've added an extra blurb at the end of the article in hopes of starting more discussion on this issue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lssah 88 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 18 July 2006.
 * Well Ishii was Japanese, but Mengele was German. Can you imagine a German not owning to his crime? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.146.139 (talk) 16:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The United States gave lots of German war criminals jobs.
 * I removed the "all in the name of science" because I thought it was speculative and was a loaded statement. Other reasons could have been that they wanted to win the war or Ishii could have been insane etc etc. I don't know that we can chalk it all up to science, at any rate. --Wesman83 16:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * According to a documentary I am watching right now on the History Channel Ishii and his staff negotiated immunity from war-crime charges in exchange for complete co-operation with investigators examining their research. I'm not going to include this in the article until I can confirm this with at least one more source, but it's an interesting tidbit of post-war history. It does make a certain degree of sense though; Ishii's research had some actual scientific merit (i.e. he had results that could be applied to research problems/arms manufacture of the day).  Mengele's research on the other hand seems to have been done more for the sake of sadism than with any scientific intention or application in mind.  Ve4cib 02:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason that Ishii was spared is because the United States wanted to assimilate Japan's biological warfare program. They allowed Ishii to get away with his crimes in exchange for the research data. Evidence of the program was then buried by the CIA/Imperial Japanese Army and kept a secret for over fourty years. OGROK
 * I've also heard such claims; one of my history professors in university claims that Ishii's work was assimilated into in the American BW program and that Ishii himself was sent to Maryland to assist US research on the subject. I cant put this in the article becuase i have no idea where my prof got this information, but in any case the article should have something on what his fate was after 1945. Kaizenyorii

10,000 deaths or 3,000 at the compound?
I see a conflict between this article and [Unit 731]; Unit 731's article states that 3,000 were killed at its facilities, while this article puts the number at 10,000. Every external article I've seen (see Unit 731's external links), and a (serious) Somethingawful.com update (http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=3122) cite 3,000 as the number. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by StJarvitude (talk • contribs) 00:31, 30 October 2005.

The 10,000 dead figure probably includes the people who died from diseases that spread to the general population surrounding the facility. It is easier find the number of people killed INSIDE of the facility rather than the total number of people infected and killed through his biological research. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.165.33.57 (talk • contribs) 04:08, 25 May 2006.

Consistency
Shiro's year of birth in the article differs from the year in the category. Which is the correct one? --Mooky 01:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The article Unit 731 mentions that the cover story was that the unit was a lumber yard, as opposed to a water-cleansing plant, as is mentioned in this article. This was apparantly the reason for the term 'logs'. Which is correct?
 * The lumber yard story was specifically a cover for one facility - either the one at Pingfan or the earlier one at Zhongma; I don't recall which. As a military unit, 731's cover story was water purification.  Doktor Wunderbar (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Categories
Removed from the article: Category:Japanese serial killers (does not fit the definition), Category:Child killers (may or may not fit the definition but is not sourced). Added instead: Category:War criminals. GregorB 19:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Maruta
"Ishii and his peers called maruta (丸太; "logs," a reference to their view of subjects being inert, expendable entities)". In Factories of Death by Sheldon Harris, he states that the subjects were called logs because one of Unit 731's cover stories in Ping Fan was that there was a lumber mill on the site. Subjects would then be transferred to the compound in trains that appeared to be carrying logs. If someone has a competing source, I'd like to see it cited. Otherwise, it should be changed. RobertM525 18:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Evilness
"One of the most purely evil men to ever have lived, his name will be recorded in the annals of infamy until the end of time" is stated at the beginning of the article. The sentence is totally speculative and has no informational value at all. Regardless of what the man did, this is no more than a personal opinion and as such should not be included into the encyclopedia article.Taleyran (talk) 01:38, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Deleted
I deleted a part that was from the splatter film Men Behind the Sun, it is no documentary at all and can't be seen as a text worthy being a part of a biography of this man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.84.98 (talk) 00:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Why?
This dirtbag Ishii was a real disgusting psychotic alright, but what led him to be such an insane monster? Was it something in his early childhood? What were his parents like? Any info out there on his upbringing, early life, etc.? 108.237.241.88 (talk) 11:12, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Christianity
I have doubt about this.From my Question to the Japanese Embassy in Berlin/Germany there answered he is buried in a Shinto Shrine near Tokyo.It means he wasnt convert.Please explain,tx. Juergen Schoefer--112.201.218.182 (talk) 11:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You information is incorrect. Nobody is ever "buried" at a Shinto shrine. Death is an impurity, and is not tolerated within Shinto precincts. Now, he may be enshrined as kami (god or spirit) particularly at Yasukuni shrine. To the Shinto priests there, it does not matter what religion he (or anyone) is (especially since most Japanese are at least nominally Buddhist), or even nationality. The spirits of Koreans and Taiwanese fought for Japan (willingly or not) have been enshrined as Shinto kami. See Controversies surrounding Yasukuni Shrine. In summary, yes it is perfectly reasonable that he was converted to Christianity, and after he died, his spirit may have been "enshrined", and subsequently venerated, at a Shinto shrine. Instead of explaining all this to you, your informant may have told you that Ishii was "buried at a shrine" for the sake of convenience and brevity. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for this Information! Juergen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.201.169.128 (talk) 13:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * No problem! Boneyard90 (talk) 15:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I have yet to find any information about this, "according to his daughter" - The best source of her and her accounts on her dad I have read are from here (https://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2167&context=etd) but do not mentioned this at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrueYears (talk • contribs) 00:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Head of bioweapons in America
General Ishii was put in charge of all biological weapons research after his immunity! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clayt0wns (talk • contribs) 19:36, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * No, he wasn't. I can find only one source (a newspaper column by historian Richard Drayton) that claim Ishii went to Maryland as an advisor on biological weapon research (even if this is true it's hardly the same as being in charge of all biological weapons research).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.16.37 (talk) 22:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

He doesn't belong to the Category:Mass murderers?
Because that's how it looks like to me. He experimented on numerous individuals, just like Joseph Mengele. —  Ark25  (talk) 18:13, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The category page specifically says, "This category is not to be used for those who carried out massacres in service of a state." 108.34.186.243 (talk) 13:57, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Family
Anyone up for the challange?

I feel like some light should be shed on the involvement of his family. Please see following excerp from the book "Unit 731: Laboratory of the Devil" (Ch. 2 Shiro Ishii and His Followers):

"The three brothers were permanent members of Unit 731, and Shiro Ishii used the relationship between family, intermarriage, clan, teacher-student, and classmates to build Unit 731. This recruitment method enabled Unit 731 to continually strengthen its military power, confidentiality, and peculiarity."

Anyone else who see how this could be important to include on this wikipage or at least very interesting? It gives many hints on how things worked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.192.220 (talk) 10:54, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

The link to a List of Nazi Doctors should be removed from this article.
I think that the link to the "Mengele" Wikipedia page (WP) should be included, since Ishii and Mengele are comparable in my opinion. On the "Mengele" WP, a List of Nazi Doctors makes sense. Here is doesn't make sense. Other such doctors (e.g., Ishii's co-workers) should be individually listed too, since this is a page about an individual.

In this article, a List of Nazi Doctors is inappropriate. The List of Nazi Doctors doesn't (but should) show the accusations and convictions. For example, the first entry in the List of Nazi Doctors and several others don't show accusations and convictions of the respective individual and lead to an empty page. It is not clear whether all doctors on the list are criminals as Ishii was. A list of known doctors who have participated in similar crimes as Ishii's would make sense however. [e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study and links to other crimes on that page]

[a] Ishii was no German Nazi. Most likely no Nazi at all. Ishii can never be on that list.

[b] The List of Nazi Doctors is fundamentally OFF-TOPIC. This article is not about Germany, not about Nazism. It would be much more appropriate to include a List of Doctors who worked at Ishii's unit, or similar units. Or an "international" list of such evil doctors as mentioned above.

[c] Essentially, this link is a deflection, as if the only (yes it was) empire of evil ever was Nazi Germany.

[d] In my opinion, this link is "permanent" compulsory German-guilt induction (similar to the compulsory pattern that all discussions about evil things lead to Hitler), anti-German propaganda (deliberately included in this alien context) (no German crime is denied), and, effectively, anti-German hate speech.

LMSchmitt 22:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

If no-one objects to the removal of the OFF-TOPIC list of Nazi-doctors (Ishii wasn't German nor Nazi, crimes of those docs are not documented in that list) in a reasonable amount of time (2 weeks), then I will remove that passage.

LMSchmitt 17:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Points "c" and "d" are rather presumptuous, aren't they? Good faith should be assumed. The activities (I won't specifically call them "crimes" simply because many, like Ishii, were never charged) were similar, took place across the same time period, and the Germans and Japanese were allies; it is not at all unreasonable to imagine a person adding the link in good faith, thinking it makes for relevant cross-reference material. I agree that the list is off-topic and should not be there, but there is no evidence anyone is trying to taint the article with "anti-German propaganda" or "hate speech". WP Ludicer (talk) 03:34, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Basis for use of the descriptor "war criminal"?
I am wondering on what basis the descriptor of "war criminal" is being applied to Ishii? He was not tried or convicted by any war crimes tribunal, as he was in fact explicitly given immunity. His acts may be seen morally objectionable, but that however is not a basis to use a label which seems to be objectively incorrect.

I will be removing this descriptor from the article as there is no consensus or basis for its use.BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 03:51, 21 April 2022 (UTC)


 * You a right for the fact Ishii was never condemned, but Mengele who was neither was put in the Nazi War Criminals category So, the two should be considered the same way...As for the Japanese mass murderer category Category:Japanese_mass_murderers, I think Ishii should remain on the list with the other military as the death of the victims of Ishii's network are real whatever he was judged or not. --Flying Tiger (talk) 03:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Other Wikipedia articles cannot serve as sources, and do not necessarily set such a precedent. Whether or not someone receives a categorical label should be based on sourced facts that pertain to that specific article. However now that you mention it, I may bring the issue of removing the category of "Nazi war criminal" from Josef Mengele up on that article's talk page. As I said before, committing morally reprehensible acts does not justify the use of objectively incorrect labels, on Wikipedia of all places.
 * With regard to removing Ishii from Category:Mass_murderers, he does not belong in it as it explicitly states: "The following lists individuals who have committed mass murder, defined as killing at least four people at the same time or over a relatively short period of time. This category is not to be used for those who carried out massacres in service of a state." BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 19:33, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to this category but to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_mass_murderers from which you deleted Ishii.... This category does not have the same notice and refer to the name of many Shôwa regime military who where never prosecuted such as Prince Asaka and Isamu Chō who acted as his his chief of staff durong the Nanjing massacre. As for Mengele, I agree he sould also be removed from the list.  Flying Tiger (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * He does not belong in Japanese mass murderers as it is a subcategory of Mass murderers, to which, presumably, the same standards apply. Not to do so would seem like a technicality at best. I would have removed the others from the Shōwa regime from that category had I seen them. BUZZLIGHTYEAR99 (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Conflicting sources on place of birth
The article currently states that he was born in Shibayama, Chiba. However, I can't find many sources confirming that. I only found this Globe Live Media article and this Medium article confirming it.

Meanwhile, the book Factories of Death (cited in this article) claims that he was born in Chiyoda Mura (Chiyoda Village) near Yotsukaidō. Other sources also claim this, such as Encyclopedia Britannica, this Medium article and this thesis. Other sources, such as American Experience, just say "near Tokyo". &horbar;Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Lack of messed-up stuff in the article
Wasn't this guy a piece of trash who tortured people to death? Why are there only, like, two sentences about that part? It seems like it should warrant a little more mention. Currently, we say "testing biological weapons on Chinese villages", which is kind of a strange way to refer to (as far as I can tell) committing mass murder. jp×g🗯️ 06:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)