Talk:Shireen Abu Akleh/Archive 1

Death: Npov
We are a shot time after the shooting. We have only claims, not proof. Determining the identity of the shooter at this stage is not neutral. https://mobile.twitter.com/eliorlevy/status/1524244974694457345 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.53.55.54 (talk) 06:47, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm translating text from the Hebrew Wikipedia article. This is based on a message circulated by the IDF spokesperson and seems to have gained wide acceptance in Israel. I did not check the source that is quoted in it:
 * At the same time as the shooting in the Jenin Refugee Camp, a video was posted in which a Palestinian militant declares: "We hit an armed Israeli soldier and he lies on the ground". No Israeli soldier was reposrted injured or killed in this incident.

The reference is a video from the popular Hebrew Telegram channel Abu Ali Express (he:אבו עלי אקספרס) that is intended to feed "information about the enemy" to Israeli Hebrew readers. There are other reports of multiple videos posted by Palestinians that show this fire in the incident at the IDF soldiers and thus seem to contradict the Palestinians declarations that only Israelis were shooting there. That said, more reliable references to such videos would probably be required, I guess. Tzafrir (talk) 07:40, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2022
Change cause of death in the infobox from "shot" to "gunshot wounds". Nythar (talk) 08:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. MadGuy7023 (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2022 (2)
I want to add some cricial addition. Dolf133 (talk) 08:53, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. MadGuy7023 (talk) 09:07, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Infobox Wording
Who wants to change the cause of death in the infobox from "shot" to "gunshot wounds"? Nythar (talk) 09:00, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment AN RFC for this seems like overkill, and the infobox currently says gunshot wounds anyway. You might want to consider closing this. Selfstudier (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment - Agree with the above. Uncontroversial. I'm not opposed to changing the infobox to "gunshot wounds".  Meatsgains (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Killed by idf ???
Palestinian lie 2A02:6680:2109:A230:C1B0:9725:F791:EB20 (talk) 10:29, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Saying "Palestinian lie" doesn't help improve this article. Also, Wikipedia isn't a forum, see WP:FORUM. Nythar (talk) 10:36, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It is a claim that should require a consensus of reliable sources, something that appears too uncertain right now. 2403:5808:1846:1:E4D6:584A:FC62:DAFE (talk) 12:18, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Heavy bias and prejudgment
[Please pardon any talk page formatting or etiquette mistakes, I don't often use talk pages.]

'she was killed by Israeli forces in 2022.[7]'

'the Palestinian Health Ministry announced that Abu Akleh had been shot and killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) while reporting on IDF raids in Jenin.[7]'

This unsubstantiated placing of responsibility relies on a single source - an Al Jazeera article on the matter. Al Jazeera are not known to be objective in their reporting on Israel, to put it mildly. In this case the journalist in question was reporting for Al Jazeera when she was killed. This is extremely recent, the manner in which this occurred is factually unclear and the article should reflect that and not echo a single source with a conflict of interest. I would edit it myself to balance the sourcing and statements and make the article neutral, but it is protected.91.102.86.184 (talk) 12:09, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Is there any particular reason to believe that Al Jazeera would misquote the Palestinian Health Ministry? Seems like a stretch for a WP:RSP news outlet. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:26, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Even if they were accurately quoted ("What we know for now is that the Palestinian Health Ministry has announced her death" appears elsewhere in the article and does not indicate IDF responsibility), the article should make it clear that it is the Ministry making the claim, not that the claim is true. 2403:5808:1846:1:E4D6:584A:FC62:DAFE (talk) 12:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, I am not involved enough in wikipedia's inner workings to go and dispute the green tick they have on that page (though it is explicitly qualified with regard to Israel-Palestine), but you can tell me if you think Al Jazeera ought to be considered a reliable source:
 * 'In a blatant murder, violating international laws and norms, the Israeli occupation forces assassinated in cold blood Al Jazeera’s correspondent in Palestine, Shireen Abu Akleh, targeting her with live fire early this morning, Wednesday, May 11, 2022 (...)'
 * source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/11/al-jazeera-condemns-israels-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh
 * 91.102.86.184 (talk) 12:43, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think "the Palestinian Health Ministry announced ..." already has the first part covered. On the second, one can understand her colleagues' emotion. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * [Author of the second reply, not the first as you mention above]
 * I certainly do not want to make the issue ad hominem but if I may say so it becomes difficult to maintain the guideline of assuming good faith when I see you brushing aside in such a risible way such a serious demonstration of the problem I have raised with this article. Al Jazeera are uncontestably not an objective or reliable source on this event, as well as being a deeply interested party. This is demonstrated by the quote above. The article as it stands states as fact the claim in question (that the IDF killed Shireen Abu Akleh), which is solely sourced from Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera's position is in fact that Israeli forces assassinated their correspondent - noting that her colleagues are upset is not a useful response to the problem of currently allowing this manifestly biased source to be the solitary plank beneath what this article tells Wikipedia readers is true. 91.102.86.184 (talk) 14:10, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Al Jazeera English is not "manifestly biased". It is an WP:RSP news outlet that is perfectly capable of quoting a ministry spokesperson. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The emotion is understandable, but it highlights the fact that we should ideally seek sources that do not have the potential conflict of interest and neutrality concerns. The factual claim "Abu Akleh was shot in the head by the IDF" is what I was referring to as an inappropriate conclusion, but it is being discussed elsewhere in the talk page right now. 2403:5808:1846:1:E4D6:584A:FC62:DAFE (talk) 14:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * On the section now attributed to Al Jazeera, why should a news agency with a news team on the ground that was presumably surrounding Shireen when she was was shot at not know who was responsible? Her cameraman and any other auxiliary team members would, by definition, be the most first-hand witnesses possibly available. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If there were a lot of men who shot or the shooter was far, they would not be able to see it. In addition, they can be afraid of the Palestinian shooter and his friends in the city:"Terrorism has become an industry in the refugee camp", "Thus Jenin became a from developing city a stronghold of terror, and how is the Corona plague related to it" https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/.premium-1.10735502 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.53.45.185 (talk) 05:53, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Shireen Abu Akleh‘s Death
The “article” appearing in Wikipedia states emphatically and as a fact, that she was killed by the IDF. This tragic event happened within the last 24 hours. A full investigation is underway to determine what actually happened. This article accuses the IDF of assassinating her without having ALL the facts. I have Wikipedia on automatic payment on my PayPal account in order to donate, monthly, to help keep it ‘alive’. That STOPS today. I am not pro Israel, but the blatant one-sided misinformation in this article is totally unacceptable to me and should be to anyone reading it! 2603:6080:9501:3C6D:9F5:8390:DD4C:992B (talk) 13:12, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the claim needs to be removed asap. 2403:5808:1846:1:E4D6:584A:FC62:DAFE (talk) 13:20, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Again "the Palestinian Health Ministry announced ..." is not the same as a statement in Wikivoice. Also, maybe you were expecting too much of a community of volunteers in the first place? Articles take time to resolve into something objective, neutral and useful. Wikipedia is intended as a long-term Encylopedia, not a place to go to brush up on your current affairs. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * extremely biasd reporting here without any facts ......very surprised here ..my donation stop as well 204.128.182.11 (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a news platform and it does not 'report' facts. It reflects sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

She wasn't killed by the IDf and yet you keep it seems like it!
Your text implies that she was killed by the IDF, which it isn't true by the videos that published from the scene (for the very least)!

Also, those aren't "occupied" areas since Cy the international law, an area can be occupied only from a country. The "Palestinians" was never a country. Not only that, those lands are the origin for the name Jewish which come from the name of the land Judeah.

Don't write antisemitic pages please! Don't take sides! 2A06:C701:4A19:F300:40BB:CF36:F93E:8227 (talk) 13:38, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Multiple reliable sources report that Abu Akleh was killed by IDF Snipers
 * See Israeli occupation Gtag10 (talk) 13:46, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * An overwhelming majority of reliable sources do not make that claim as a statement of fact, only quoting Al Jazeera (her employer) instead. It is reasonable to include the fact that this is what her employer claims, but its inclusion as a statement of fact goes against the consensus of reliable sources an must be removed.       — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:5808:1846:1:E4D6:584A:FC62:DAFE (talk) 13:59, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that for the time being at least, claims made by AJ should be attributed to AJ (claims made by Israel ditto).Selfstudier (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have a source caliams that she wasn't killed by IDF? أحمد ناجي (talk) 14:44, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, the IDF. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:18, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Reportage on the incident is so poor we cannot write neutrally who is responsible, so far.Nishidani (talk) 15:05, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Although, if we want to get philosophical, no botched IDF raid = no bullets flying this way and that one way or another. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:21, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That is indeed relevant, repeated raids on Jenin by Israeli forces in recent weeks.Selfstudier (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Article written as one-sided and pro-palestinian
In this article it is written that she was killed by Israeli soldiers, but it is not true, nobody knows who killed her and there were terrorists there that fired in her direction. You're just accusing Israel because they were there at the same moment. DirtyPotatoEditor (talk) 14:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Also a video was published from the area of an armed Palestinian saying: "we killed a soldier and he's on the floor". None of the Israeli soldiers we're harmed so we can assume that he killed her. DirtyPotatoEditor (talk) 14:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I disagree, the article is written in a neutral way and mentions the reactions of both sides. All reliable and official sources confirm that she was killed by IDF. The journalist works for Al Jazeera, and Al Jazeera announced that. The Palestinian Ministry of Health also officially announced this. These sources are considered official sources, and cannot be ignored in the article. The information is attributed to its sources, and Wikipedia does not adopt any opinion.--فيصل (talk) 14:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The Palestinian Ministry of Health also officially announced this. No they didn't, they confirmed her death. It was AJ that claimed IDF responsibility. Be a little patient and see what develops.Selfstudier (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, WAPO is now reporting that PMoH said that and it's in the lead so...resolved, for now. I don't really understand it, tbh but that's what the sources are saying so there it is.Selfstudier (talk) 15:54, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The PMoH announced this 10-11 hours ago, so I hope, before you deny my words, you research before that. see Alarabiya.--فيصل (talk) 16:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I didn't deny your words, I went by the sources that were in the article and it was AJ reporting that the PMoH said that so caution was justified. Now it is in WAPO so no problem. Personally, I still don't understand how the PMoH is involved, were they there? Anyway, the sources say it and we are reporting the sources so no problem. Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

undue
what is the cause for the undue tag? absent a reason on this page I will be removing it.  nableezy  - 15:43, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Also, the only clearly unreliable sources are the two twitter links, and those are contextualised, so the unreliable sources tag are similarly suspect. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * My bad!
 * "Shireen Abu Akleh (3 January 1971 – 11 May 2022) was a Palestinian-American journalist who worked as a reporter for the Arabic-language channel of Al Jazeera for 25 years until she was killed on 11 May 2022 while covering a raid on Jenin in the Israeli-occupied West Bank by the Israel Defense Forces."
 * I misread the this phrase in the lead section, reading it as "killed...by the IDF" instead of "covering a raid by the IDF". That was why I put the {undue weight} tag, with the "certain idea" referring to the allegation that Abu Akleh was killed by the IDF. I stand corrected. Mooonswimmer 16:48, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for removing the tags,  nableezy  - 16:50, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

, you added this and the tag discussed below, please justify them or remove them.  nableezy  - 16:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

unreliable sources tag
which sources?  nableezy  - 15:52, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Ah, beat me to it - responded above. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:56, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Pathology
https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/2022_q2/Article-ea04b845ee2b081027.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:184:3024:B866:E547:661:EB01 (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/syqt3lyuc#autoplay

if you decide to about the opininon of the reporter at Haaretz, add this https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/sjpqlgyi9#autoplay --2A00:A040:184:3024:B866:E547:661:EB01 (talk) 16:45, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Revert
This revert removed the following:

According to Reporters Without Borders, 144 Palestinian journalists have been wounded by Israeli forces across the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem since 2018 and in April of 2022, the International Federation of Journalists filed a complaint with the International Criminal Court accusing Israeli forces of systematic targeting of journalists. (sourced to the Guardian)

with edit summary "This article is about Sheerin". Sheerin was a journalist and it seems relevant to me, what do others think? Selfstudier (talk) 18:12, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The source is drawing the connection, the article cited is about Abu Akleh and includes this as relevant background. There is no SYNTH issue as a single source connects the topic. I am restoring it.  nableezy  - 18:21, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This article is one-sided and takes anti-Israel stance. Cherry picking of anti-Israel claims, which have nothing to do with Abu Akleh, is unprofessional. It does not matter you coapied them from an article that generally deals with Abu Akleh. ℬ𝒜ℛ (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The Guardian is a reliable source, and yes it does matter that the source is about Abu Akleh and that the source draws the connection. You may not simply remove material you dislike.  nableezy  - 19:46, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * One of the best sources we have a available to us. Yes, we should summarize the background the source highlights. Count me an addition to the consensus here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:48, 11 May Reporters Without Borders (RSF),2022 (UTC)
 * I've reinserted it. There was no viable justification for this removal other than distaste for a connected fact in a prime source.Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Obviously relevant and sourced. Shouldn't have been challenged in the first place. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:13, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Arabic language Al-Jazeera statement is quite different...
here—if the machine translation is accurate, the "martyred" quote belongs to them, and they squarely blame the IDF for her death. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 20:52, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

series of WP:CLAIM violations
Using language that expresses doubt that the sources do not is a straightforward example of POV-pushing and tendentious editing and should be reverted.  nableezy  - 00:11, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Hussein al-Sheikh "relevance" tag
Why are unnamed IDF spokesmen being quoted at length but a senior PA official's view is being questioned as irrelevant? And for the record, notability has nothing to do with article content. What matters is weight, and Haaretz including that statement gives it some weight.  nableezy  - 00:17, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Resolved, thanks for removing the tag .  nableezy  - 14:25, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2022
Cause of death: targeted assassination by Israeli sniper 2600:1700:7110:B790:5519:CBDE:A8C2:4600 (talk) 01:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Not done. Source? Selfstudier (talk) 01:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)