Talk:Shivaji/Archive 1

only secular king
the article claims in its opening lines that shivaji was india's only secular king. cite sources or do away with it.


 * It seems confused to me. Elsewhere the article says that Shivaji was a devout Hindu, which implies that he wasn't secular... As the secular article says, the term "is mainly used to denote distance from, or lack of, religion".  I assume the intention is to refer to something like "respected freedom of religion", as covered in the "religion" section.  So I'll remove the secular reference in the intro. -- Danny Yee 08:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Being secular and being hindu is probably one and the same thing because tolerance is the cornerstone of being a hindu. Hinduism basically says there are different ways to reach god. In fact it also recognizes aethists' view as a valid opinion that there is no god. So it is not an irony to say shivaji was secular and a hindu king. --- Parag Jagtap


 * But at least in common usage here, "secular" does not mean "tolerant" - it's more commonly taken to mean non-religious (or even anti-religious in many cases). Is this another word where the meaning in India has diverged from that in (say) North America? -- Danny Yee 23:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * People are Hindu. Governments are secular. Secularism doesn't mean atheism, it means the state does not favour or disfavour any particular religious belief. A Hindu man can be a secular king simply by refusing to force Hinduism down everyone's throats. There is no contradiction. -- Pav

Comment
Hinduism is a way of life in contrast to institutionalized Semetic religions. Hinduism encompasses all schools of thought which include atheism, animism, nature worship, idol worship and ranging up to profound vedic Brahmanism. It accepts Semetic religions also as ways and means to reach the ultimate God. Being a Hindu naturally means to be Secular. This is the reason why one finds in India enormous amount of human diversity ranging from primitive tribes to the recent Perso-Turkic and Anglo-Indian populations, each speaking one's own language and following age-old customs and traditions. E.g., Buddhist thought spread throughout Asia but never intervened with native languages and traditions. On the other hand, history tells us how other religions and ethnic groups always tried to impose their religion, language, customs and food habits on others.

overall quality of this article

 * Yes, it needs a lot of work, but unfortunatelyI don't know enough to do it myself either. I don't see the balance issue as being **that** bad, though.  A historical approach will surely upset some people, but it's likely to produce something in between an "insignificant bandit" and a "perfect hero"... Danny Yee 06:35, 14 October 2005 (UTC)Why Shivaji's war Flag is Bhagawaa or saffron colour or Orange colour???

Most people think that it is because King Shivaji was champion of Hindu Religion so that his flag colour is, was Orange or Bhagwa colour but to my notion this conclusion is not correct. The right reasone i found in Maratha clan each cclan aahs its own flag colour for example The Pawaar clan has Red colour flag. So is the Bhosale clan haas gotta Orange or Bhagwa colour flag. The importance of Sivaji,s freedom stugulle and Hindu religion was so great that afterwards all Hindu religion and their temples began to use Orange or Bhgwa colour as the Hindu religion petant colour. But we all should know that all the credit, importance goes to King Shivaji and his Bonsale clan of Maratha. I have put forward a very importaant and contravaarcial notion in this addition. All the historian should note my this graate point i have found. --- Vishal Prakash Dudhane, Pune City

Drawing comparisions between Shivaji and OBL is highly insensitive and insulting to not only 40 million Marathas but also to all Indians irrespectiove of their religion. This "insignificant bandit" was the founder of a Maratha Empire that ruled much of India in 18th century. It hardly matters what Mughal chroniclers wrote abou Shivaji... Saladin had been demosnised out of proportions in Europw during Crusades.

Lastly i dont get what you guys find POV or incorrect in this article. I agree that this article is pretty disorganised and could do with a lot of copy editing but i can atest (since i've read a dozen books on Maratha history) This article puts histoic recorded facts here. Shivaji was only secular Kind in Islamic India. Perhaps an article on Shivaji by Muslims might clear your view... : http://www.islamicvoice.com/may.99/NOTINGS.HTM (Look at the middle of the page)

AMbroodEY 11:11, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

stuff that's missing?
Ans-to following query--please visit this page again--it is mentioned now.See on one can write a complete bio graphy of any person.The article is improving.Now his name is added.A few more needs to be added.That can be done in due course of time.

There is no mention of Baji Rao and his troop of 50 blocking a pass to their death, while Shivaji and the main guard escaped to safety... sorry am so vague- but this was an extremely dramatic episode I remember from my school days


 * I'd like to see a slightly more detailed account of the story of his escape as well. I've heard it's a fun story. Apparently Shivaji's battle-tactics are quite fascinating as well. He made sure each soldier had 2 horses, and they were wild horses. Not thoroughbreds or anything, so they could survive out on their own. The soldier wasn't allowed to ride them except when they were fleeing from the enemy. Interesting things like this can flesh the article out a bit. I'd put it in myself, but I don't know of any sources to cite. --Pav

relations with East India Company
"Shivaji was the first of the contemporary rulers to recognise the true intent of East India Company. "

So what was the Company's true intent? This dates from before Britain stubled into having an Empire, so I can't see what the Company's intent was,  other than to make as much money as possible. Malcolm Farmer 09:43, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Gotcha and edited. Not sure how accurate that line is, but I've made it sound better atleast. Hopefully some history buff is watching ... Gaurav 15:08, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Who attacked Shivaji?
A few accounts state that it was Syed Banda who attacked Shivaji (rather than Kulkarni), who was then attacked by Jiva Mahal (Mahalya). I'll re-post when I get some confirmation.

Also, I am adding a page on Pratapgad (more info is coming up).

I wanted to check how I could link back to the details of Shivaji & Afzal Khan's encounter in this page. I'd prefer not writing it all over again. Do I have to link to the page? Or can I link to the sub-section? If I can link to the sub-section, how do I do it.

I'll also check if I can get confirmation on Shivaji's birthdate.

Rookie on Wiki :-)

Atul Sabnis 13:41, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Shivaji's Birth
Shivaji was born on 19 february 1630.It is right date. I seen it at shivaji museum.

Henry Oxenden
Who was this guy? I cannot find any reference to him.

Could he be confused with Sir George Oxenden of Kent? The British East India Company appointed Sir George Oxenden (formerly the President Of Surat Factory since 1662) the first President/Governor of Bombay on 23 Sep 1668. He could have been present at the coronation which was held in 1674, had he not died on 14 July 1669 in Surat during an epidemic that plagued the city.

There is quite a large memorial to him and his brother in Surat even today at the English cemetery, near the Katargam Gate. George had a brother, Christopher who was with him in Surat operating the factory, but he died in 1659.

In January of 1664 Shivaji sacked Surat, with the exception of the British factory, a fortified warehouse-counting house-hostel, which was successfully defended by Sir George Oxenden. Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb is supposed to have honoured him for this incident, and increased the trading priviledges of the British.

Maybe the gentleman present was either of Mr. Matthew Gray (14 Jul 1669 - 7 Jun 1672), or Mr. Gerald Aungier (7 Jun 1672 - 30 Jun 1677) who were acting Presidents of Bombay for the English East India Company during the time of the coronation. - Mohnish Kamat 12:36, August 18 (UTC)


 * Found him! He is likely Henry Oxinden, who was the acting President of the Bombay Presidency during 30 June 1677 and 27 October 1681 between Gerald Aungier, and Sir John Child. -Mohnish Kamat 19:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm descended from the Oxenden family - the family tree I have compiled suggests that this is Sir Henry OXENDEN, 1st Baronet (1614 - 1686) and brother to George Infilms 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Shivaji's rule
"He was also only the second king in Indian history to have his own navy".

This is misleading as both Raja Raja Chola -I and Rajendra Chola -I had finest and powerful navies atleast 500 years before Shivaji's reign. --Karur-Vijay 12:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC) ---you are correct, the statement is edited.One can say that after the great cholas,Shivaji was the next visionary to have navy.

NPOV
There seems to an edit war or vandalism going on this page between anonymous user ids, http://141.117.95.46 and http://210.211.136.93. I have tagged this article for NPOV - Mohnish Kamat 19:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Democracy in Shivaji's Government?
Are you sure that Shivaji's ministers were democratically elected? I very much doubt this claim. I would like to see some references that mention this fact. If I know my history correctly, Shivaji's ministers were appointed by him. --Kinshuk 14:15, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Agree. Also, I have re-tagged this article for NPOV/Accuracy.  Would the author http://210.211.136.93 please register and identify themselves?  --Mohnish Kamat 17:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, examples of NPOV/Accuracy dispute:
 * - Coronation:"If one keeps away these kind of stories and observe his entire life, then one can understand the dimension of coronation."
 * - Early life:"All of these contributed to the making of his personlity and that is why precisely he is a multifarious personality like any world class ruler."
 * - Conflict with the Mughals:"The lawlessness on the west coast of mughal possession, with pervasive theft and rapine, coupled with the ability of the British to preserve law and order in certain portion of Bombay, led to Bombay's domination.Moreover the present day Colaba was in possession of Shivaji .Maratha navy under Shivaji and afterwards checked British as well as many other Pirates. It had had an effect on India's west coast.Otherwise India would ahve been Africa." --Mohnish Kamat

I have done away with NPOV.please tell me what is the point of dispute regarding above mentioned four points-coronation,early life,conflict with mughals.Please clarify.i am ready for fact based dispute.

vandalism or misguided enthusiasm?
I don't know whether 210.211.136.93 is someone with poor English and too much enthusiasm, or whether they're deliberately sabotaging this page. If they really want to add new content to the article, I suggest posting it to this Talk page so we can turn it into English and fit it into the appropriate section of the article. Danny Yee 13:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

agree.There is neither too much enthusiasm or any deliberate attempt to sabotage this page.Wikipedia is great source of knowldge, I do appreciate.If there is some objection to certain matter, it can be clarified .If you find poor English , you can definitely edit or even delete it.Hereafter i will post on this talk page.My identity is dbkasar@yahoo.com .I am open to all discussion.


 * A query about the coronation. If I understand your last addition correctly, there were two coronation ceremonies, the first performed by "Pandit Gaga Bhatt, a Brahmin from Varanasi" and the second "according to the Bengal school of Tantricism, presided over by Nischal Puri".  Is that correct? Danny Yee 06:03, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes,this can be confirmed from any book written by Jadunath Sarkar, a noted historian or any other one of repute.

the Laine affair and the BORI attack
I can understand both the Laine book and the events surrounding it being controversial, but I've tried to be objective in describing what happened. If you have any criticisms, please post them here and I'll try to improve the wording. But please don't just remove the description of the incident, as it's obviously important and the details I posted are confirmed by various news sources. Danny Yee 06:11, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * agreed.I think you have given already an extenal link.I leave it to you.

Someone stuck a link to an Asia Times review of Laine's book into the references section. It's a good review, but I'm not sure how to work it into the article. So I'm sticking it here for the moment. -- Danny Yee 12:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Permission to edit this article from a purely linguistic perspective?
Hi all. I'd like to compliment all those who have contributed to this article. There are however, quite a few typos and spellos(Shivaji was a brilliant staregist asn had always used different tactics on different occassions), linguistic inconsistencies (e.g. mughals, Mughals) and awkward phrases (no name appears genuine than his own father, This makes him to rule the hearts of the vanquished) in it. I'd like to know if it's all right with you if I try to correct them.

Incidentally, how does one go about making a post in this forum? I've currently posted this by clicking the 'Edit this page' button but I'm pretty sure there must be a 'post' button somewhere.


 * Sounds good to me - the article certainly needs a spell- and grammar-check. I've mostly been working backwards through it, trying to tidy up as I go. Danny Yee 06:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

agree.

Request for dbkasar@yahoo.com
Thank you for participating in this debate. We certainly appreciate your assistance with this article. Could you register yourself with Wikipedia? That helps you get proper recognition for your work (Click here to register), and to help others identify you and dialogue with you.

When you do register, you will find a link to this page (called Discuss this page) at the bottom of every article. You can post to this Talk page using the "Edit this page" link on the page.

Once you have finished updating your content and quoting the sources, please let us know and we can wordsmith it and wikify it to standardise the look of the article. With some effort it may even become a featured article! -- Mohnish Kamat 16:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your suggestion.I have registered today. dbkasar@yahoo.com.

Have registered
Right, have registered on Wiki. As of now, I've started editing from the top and am simply focussing on the spellos and the punctuation. That apart, I sincerely believe there are some important issues that need to be addressed in the article for it to reflect the neutrality and factual accuracy required by any encyclopedia.

1. Language and tone: Since this article is intended to inform or even instruct, I feel that the tone taken could be moderated slightly and the number of superlatives or any other powerful words which make the article sound opinionated, rather than disinterested, could be cut down. Additionally, I feel that the structuring of sentences, paragraphs and units of thought needs to be improved. Currently there are quite a few digressions which the alert reader might find distracting. To cite an example- the section on Early life contains the following :

His mother made him a pious man which is reflected in his policy towards women.

This could be placed in Remembering Shivaji where it would be more effective. (I'm assuming that this sentence talks about Shivaji, not Shahaji)

2. Claims which need to be substantiated to make them more convincing:

All of these contributed to the making of his personality and that is precisely why he is a multifarious personality like any world class ruler.

''It was not Plundering.It was a part of the war which had became important to support public finance. No one is exception, so is Shivaji.''

These and other claims need to be examined more thoroughly before any conclusion can be arrived at. What makes these debatable is a disconcerting lack of evidence. Suitable lines of reasoning need to be formulated to support such claims. In general a reader can respect the directness of the path used in arriving at a conclusion even if he doesn't accept the points at which it begins or it ends; rather than simply voicing our opinions on substantive matters, we as writers should give the reader a chance to decide what is true and what isn't after offering evidence which would support our claims and debunk alternative ideas/theories.

These are just some suggestions that I have. I'll get a text file/pdf of an edited version in place and post it on this forum. I'd like you guys to review it and give your suggestions.

Cheers,

Mukul

Pune, India

Mukul Hinge


 * That sounds great. Definitely most of the superlatives should go.  Partly  that's just a style issue - words like "very" and so forth are usually redundant or uninformative, since they don't actually explain "how much" - but as you say they're especially inappropriate in an encyclopedia.


 * A PDF may be overkill - you should just make changes section by section (or post ideas here). Some of the current article is pretty bad at the moment, so you're unlikely to make things worse!


 * I see the "Remembering Shivaji" section as dealing with how people have thought and written about Shivaji since his death, rather than about the actual events of his life or his character traits. Putting some later readings of Shivaji's life into this section may be controversial, of course. Danny Yee 07:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

agreed.Here after I will be posting my views over here.Any one can confirm it and then only it can be added. A few points are below:- 1)Foundation of any kingdom requires efforts of many generations.It requires revenue, manpower, definite target and many more things.If any one see Shivaji's earlier life , then one can see his father was trying to establish a kingdom .However he was defeated by Shah Jahan( a force around 48,000).As a result he was forced to go in south .(Reference-Grant Duff -History of Marathas).From south , Shivaji was sent alongwith his mother as a queen regent and a small ministry.Certain commanders of note had accompained Shivaji.Certain revenue was assigned for it.So under these circumsatnces , he started his activities.One must remember Afzal Khan , Siddi Jauhar or Shaista Khan were not ordinary commanders .So to defeat such seasoned commanders , one needs support of equally experienced commanders and well trained soldiers.One will notice names of Mahadaji Naik,Kanhoji Jedhe, Baji Pasalkar, Bandal and many more regional lords owing loyalty to Shahaji had supported Shivaji in his initial struggle. So instead of presenting Shivaji as a divine or a dacoit type of man, better to analyse from these angle. 2) About Surat, it is mentioned that he had commited theft.He had defeated mughal contingents ,then only exacted money from the town.On second occassion, when Mughals tried to intercept him near Nashik, Shivaji himself took the field and defeated them.During sack of Surat, Shivaji did maintain certain normsof civilization(Travelogue of foreign travellers like Abbey Carey mentions it).So the facts mentioned needs to be corrected. dbkasar@yahoo.com

Note this points while reading history of Maratha and shivaji
From:- Vishal Prakash Dudhane Sir, By god's grace i am not a degree holder historian or a politisian or not a person who allways hide the truth when it comes to Maratha and people.I am a commen man who belives in truth.But by my missfortune i was born in Maratha cast.By all non-maratha people including my fellow Indian brother's it's a shame.Beaing a Maratha in this world is like comitting a crime .Why all people hate Maratha's ???? I ask allways to myself. What crime has we committed afterall to humanity?? I am 30 year's old now ,not very mentaly matured or have all the knowlage (Gayan)on this earth. But i am sure that as a rational thinker and allways testing all what i read, what other people say's about Maratha.In this thirty years of my lifetime i had realised some true facts the mother nature has given to Maratha people.I said that i have realised not discovered because all the Historian,Bhramin's,Politisian,white people allready knew it but the have hide it under a grate conspiracy .If any Historian outside of India will ever cheque,judge all the books ,historical records,evidence,how history is written and manage and fallesified and under what circumttancess it is put befor the world,the profit and intention behind the circumtencess.the genetic evidence, DNA report,and all other factor's. The reason behind the hate of Maratha people is that THE MARATHA'S are the foundation stock behind all Indian royalty including the so called and most boasted Rajput .Infact evedence suggest that world's royal clan's are of Maratha origin.Infact the Maratha's are the one and only true and pure breed of mankind who can claim to be of wirrior cast or to be Kshytria.But today day's are change for Maratha people .Poverty (CAMPARIYING TO OTHER PART OF WORLD OR CAST ),UNUNITED,bad leadership,togetherness of anti maratha power's etc. I have a prayer for all thos historian,politisian,Bhramin,anti maratha forcess that please don't take dissadvantage,missuse yor power to show down Maratha's beacuse today we are in no position to fight and we don't want trobule.Please don't belive in false,untrue history of Maratha's.All history written by Bhramin Engish,American,Muslim people is untrue and it is constructed to gather anti maratha forcess.This false history is written to vanish Maratha cast.Allthey want is that The Maratha's should never ever come up and achive their old golden day's.

ATTENTION (Mr.Vishal)

Let's be objective and try to find facts.

As world knows Marathas are one of warrior casts (this needs no certification)

Shivaji might is one of kings who has rebuilt and carved his own kingdom from this land, but, there were great kings from this region before him too, Satavahana s (mix of aryan and maharathas), rashtrakuts, yadhavs and jadhavs. His efforts were inline with ambition to rule India by warriror caste from this region like other kings did before and after him.

The greatness of Shivaji lies, that he challenged mightly Moghuls and eventually Marathas marginalised Mughals by re-establishing Hindu kingdom. But Marathas could not fight Afgans, Moghuls and Britishers at same time and subdued to British empior.

ATTENTION (Mr.Vishal) Dear friend, we all are from different backgrounds, but our aim is to put history in a proper perspective.So please do not feel that there is any deliberate attempt to put forward wrong view, specially on weikpedia.It is a  free encyclopedia which is helping a lot to all those who seek knowledge.You can contact me on dbkasar@yahoo.com

For me it sounds very funny that someone is ashamed of his or her "Marathipan". Instead I enjoy it. Have you not read about ShivajiRaje? Everybody sees the world by his or her own pointof view. Change your point of view. - Shilpa

Apology and My stand on Maratha history as a commen man
From:- Vishal prakash Dudhane 525 Narayan Peth Pune City 5 th oct 2005 Sir, In my first post i had put some genral facts that comes in my mind very often. Perhapes some hard, harsh ,bitter language were used by me.But the situation is very critical,sevear,worsed and there is no sign to have change in it. I am not a looser or lost minded person, but the injustice, unlaw made to Maratha cast and people in history,politics and in every part of life makes me very sad.What is most disturbing is that the land to wich we belong , today we are humiliated in our own home with the help of those people who should be gratefull to us. But i think what has happned is happned and I have to make change in that. I am sorry if any mistake, harsh word has come from me, i did't meant it from at the bottem from my heart and i appologise for it.The bitter condition and injustice to my people gave birth to such words. A suggestion came from dbkasar@yahoo.com as a reply. I have read it and appreciated it and have taken good advice from it.Thanks dbkasar@yahoo.com for help and good advice and i shal follow it.My aim is to tell the true history of Maratha's and not to humiliate or show down any othe cast or religion or people. But i will be aggrassive to show that what had happned realy, how false history was put forward before world and who were behind that. Because i belive it is very essential and must to do.The truth about Maratha history is very devine and to work on it a god 's work,, i belive. Wait, Stop. My aim is not negative nither i am sadist nor i want to start anothe vandalism and chain of false history. But i will put the true history of Maratha's in front of the world. And i am positive minded

Clarification
I should have worded my comments differently - they seem to have been taken out of context. Vishal, believe me when I say that I feel Shivaji was one of the greatest warrior kings that India has seen. I am as dismayed as you are by the snide comments from his detractors. The point that I'm trying to make is that sheer force of expression is not a very powerful argument for getting the idea across; the ideas have to be backed up with logical justification. As DBkasar said "our aim is to put history in a proper perspective".In our enthusiasm to 'set the record straight', we cannot afford to overlook facts or have simplistic conclusions.

Am going through R. V. Herwadkar's "Historicity of Shivaji-Afzal Khan Confrontation" and B. K. Apte's "Chhatrapati Shivaji: Coronation Tercentenary Commemmoration Volume (Bombay: University of Bombay, 1974-75". These seem to be as good a starting point as any. I'd really appreciate it if you guys can suggest any other reference material.

Cheers,

M.

Mukul Hinge

reference books
1)Grant Duff-History of Marhattas 2)Bal Krishna--Shivaji 3)S.N.Sen-Foreign accounts of Shivaji 4)v.D.Samant-Vedh Mahamanavacha(marathi) 5)B.M.Purandare-Raja Shiv Chhatrapati(marathi) 6)D.B.Kasar-Rigveda to Raigarh-making of Shivaji the great 7)Jadunath Sarkar-Shivaji There are a few more books which one can refer, best wishes dbkasar@yahoo.com

information about Shahaji
I don't have time to do a full rewrite of this article, but I hope to tidy up Early Life in the next few days. As part of that, I plan to move most of the information about Shahaji out of this article into Shahaji. Does that seem sensible to everyone? -- Danny Yee 11:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

ok.. i'm on it. i can help in translating some Marathi sources. AMbroodEY 16:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Your suggestion is welcome. dbkasar@yahoo.com

Editing/Cleaning up of this page
I agree, that this page of history of Shivaji needs to be cleaned up. I hope to finish/clean up this article during the christmas break while my students are away from the lab. Taking a very good pointer from dbkasar, i am posting my email id (amolvp@gmail.com) for any suggestions.

Too much detail?
It seems to me that in some areas we are going into way too much detail. Exactly what weapons were used in Shivaji's encounter with Afzal Khan, for example, may not need to be covered (or at least not in the main article). -- Danny Yee 22:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Detail is good; summaries are also good. You want to serve both kinds of readers. If we get too swamped with detail here, we can create subarticles on different things related to him, but we don't need to eliminate any of the detail from Wikipedia entirely, I don't think. Everyking 09:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Too much detail
agreed .your sugesstion is good.we can break into different sections like military,architecture etc as links which will help understanding this great man---dbkasar@yahoo.com

Founder of Maratha Empire
At various places Shivaji is referred to as founder of Maratha empire. Strictly speaking the Hindavi Swarajya, at the time of Shivaji's death was a large kingdom( of the size of say the Bijapuri Kingdom) and not an Empire! While Shivaji was the source of inspiration and helped establish the intial foundations of the Maratha kingdom, it was the Peshwas especially  Bajirao Peshwa who extended the rule of the Maratha kingdom  over vast territories, large enough to be called an Empire.

Founder of Maratha Empire
Strictly speaking it is not worth to think like this .Baji rao was a great peshwa and did extend the maratha empire.But again note that he was one of Shahu's generals, who was the head of maratha empire till his death,1749 .In the east it was Raghuji Bhosale who extended Maratha empire.In the south Shivaji had annexed places like Jinji, Vellore and many more.Even Before Shahu, Marathas had entered Malwa and Gujarat.On the west coast it was Kanhoji Angre who extended Maratha empire.One more point that  territories of any founder is always less as compared with his successors e.g.Territories of Babur and Aurangzeb differs vastly.So is the case of Harihar and Bukka if compared with Krishna devraya.So a founder is a founder.To say simply had not Shivaji been there,there would not have been any his successor .Extension does not mean foundation.Please do not forget historical facts and start such talk.dbkasar@yahoo.com

References, deletions etc.
Congratulations to dbkasar, Danny Yee and all the others who have been tackling the task of restoring NPOV, and clean-up of this article since September 2005.

A couple of pointers - please restore contributed material deleted (e.g Shivaji's capture/imprisonment by Aurangzeb at Agra, and his escape) and add specific references. For example, the statement:"The French missionary Father Fryer witnessed the fortifications of Gingee, Madras, built by Shivaji after its conquest, and appreciated his technical knowhow and knoweldge", is unsubstantiated.

There is a lot to discuss about Shivaji's life, and I agree with Everyking in that we have to be able to address all users, and maybe detail can go into separate articles -- Mohnish Kamat 15:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I hadn't noticed the Agra trip going missing, but I've put it back now.  I've left out the details of the debate over what exactly happened - that seems too much, but could maybe go in a separate article.  It's appended here to make it easy to find, anyway. -- Danny Yee 22:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

ATTENTION: dbkaskar

The facts mentioned above should go in main wikipages please. I am not sure if you have put them already but in case you have not, please do. This is important to bring justice to the fame of all the noble Maratha generals, whose greatness has been distorted by some selfish historians.

material on Agra imprisonment and escape
According to some historians, this was possible only because the guards and some influential officials of the Mughal state were heavily bribed. Even certain officials might have been bribed,but not the entire mughal army or administration.Moreover Aurangzeb was of suspective nature and was strong in intelligence.One can guess from the fact that in future, same Aurangzeb caught hold of Sambhaji from his own territiory near Ratnagiri.One can imagine the dimension of the problems before Shivaji. So, the former claim that he sneaked as a palanquin bearer holds out guinuinely. He reached his kingdom in October 1666. A recent book by Dr. Ajit Joshi also debunks the latter story, but proposes a turner to the former in what it claims are the real facts of the escape.

Shivaji and Aurangzeb met in Agra, not Delhi on May 12, 1666. Aurangzeb's father and former Emperor Shahjahan died in the Agra fort on 22 January 1666. Aurangzeb and his retinue reached Agra in mid-February 1666.

Shivaji and his son, Sambhaji were put under house arrest on May 29, 1666 in a large haveli in Agra owned by Jai Singh. He feigned sickness during June 1666, and obtained permission from Aurangzeb (who was also busy with a rebellion in the North West) to distribute sweets to sadhus, fakirs, and general public to get cured from ill health. Shivaji also obtained approval to send some of his courtiers back home since his audience with the Emperor was over. This entailed the procurement of Dastaks (Urdu:Notice) - a travel permit. This enabled these men to establish outposts along the way from Agra in preparation for Shivaji's escape.

During mid-July, Shivaji received intelligence that Aurangzeb and his courtiers were to depart on a hunting expedition on July 22, 1666. Jai Singh's son Ram Singh requested Shivaji to join the expedition, but Shivaji refused.

Shivaji had invited Pandit Kavindra Paramananda, of the Sanskrut Pathashala at Varanasi (Kashi) to visit him. This visit took place on July 22, 1666. During this visit, Shivaji shaved his beard, donned the garb of a Pandit and joined the entourage. A Dastak with his new name had already been procured.

After breaking off from this group outside Agra, Shivaji took to Gwalher (Gwalior), Narvar then straight to Burhanpur! From here Shivaji diverted to Nashik, since he did not want to go to Aurangabad. Sambhaji did not join his father on this escape, but left Agra on August 16, 1666 disguised as another Brahmin boy. He joined his father via Mathura.

Shivaji's escape was only discovered on August 18, 1666 when Aurangzeb appointed him to the North-West frontier and wanted him to leave for Kabul.

Indrabhishek
What is Indrabhishek? My understanding of what was added is something like "Shivaji insisted on Indrabhishek, which had not been used since the 9th century", but I don't know what Indrabhishek is and it needs to be explained if we're going to refer to it. -- Danny Yee 05:35, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Indrabhishek
attention-Danny Yee

Coronation ceremony was performed since vedic times.It was called Indrabhishek .Indra is king of God.With passage of time Vedic ceremonies lost ground to some extent.After Vedas,Buddhism had arrived in Indian soil.Many kings like Rashtrakutas, Chalukyas or Harshvardhan supported many faiths like Vedic,Jain or Buddhist.So the vedic ceremony of coronation slowly discarded .By end of 9th century or start of 10th century, this ceremony was relegated to background.Subsequent Indian kings like Prithviraj Chauhan or Yadavas did coronation but not in complete sense as done by Samudragupta, Pulkeshi Chalukya or Harsh vardhana. Gagabhatt was a great scholar, he studied and wrote a book on coronation.He reestablished the procedure.Hence complete ceremony was performed .One may noted that Shivaji after coronation set on a millitary campaign 'Dakshin Digvijaya'on the pattern of Ashwamedha Yadyna,an old age tradition since Ramayan days. You may confirm this from a foreword written by a well known scholar, Narhar Kurandkar to 'Shriman Yogi'written by Ranjit Desai,a noted author.The same is translated in english-dbkasar@yahoo.com


 * Thanks for the explanation - I've put a sentence about that back into the article. -- Danny Yee 10:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Father Fryer
For his account ,please refer'Foreign accounts of Shivaji'by S.N.SEN, well known historian.

Coronation of Shivaji
Coronation of Shivaji was a logical fullfilment of his father's dream.Shahaji had entrusted him a small council of ministers ,trusted commanders and a royal seal.Certain land was given alongwith a treasure.That seal clearly speaks that the son of Shahaji ,Shivaji is growing like new moon(as he being a child then)and he is there to look after welfare of the people.Shivaji retained that seal even after his coronation.So there is logical fullfilment of his father's plan. Secondly as per vedic tradition, only coronated king can punish all subjects.Further in Mahabharata, it is clealry mentioned that king causes time(Raja kalasya karnam).Against this background he got coronated.Reasons like Deccani nobles or he being bhosale are later on generated versions by historians who are not well acquainted with maratha history or by certain marathi historians for their petty gains. As per Puranas, with end of Nanda dynasty of Magadha,kshatriyas vanished.According to some ,in kaliyuga there are only two varnas i.e.Brahmins and shudras.And third version that Parshuram annihilated Kshatriyas. So these theories themselves are self contradictory. ---Shivaji precisley wanted to break this mundane setup of mind.That is why he caused coronation and created a new yuga and era. ---He was the first in late medieval India to cross the sea and built a fort on island and built navy.This was agaisnt scriptures ---H egot re-converted many Hindus as per their willingness.In hinduism, there is such no provision of reconversion. ---He did not give fiefs either to landlords or priests.This was against old age practises.And precisely this was the reason that certain section of these classes kept away from Shivaji. --So against this background, he got coornated .One must understand this full dimension of it.It was a creation of a sovereign kingdom. One can verify these facts from any good book on maratha history--dbkasar@yahoo.com

Cleanup
Well i've started a clean up of this article. I've also added the Marathi text, infobox and some pics. We can make it a featured article with just lil' more effort. अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 09:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

@ dbkasar
Please register an account on wikipedia hence we can keep track of your changes. Use the option on the upright corner to register. You can then sign in your name by typing four ~ अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 09:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It is nice to see day by day improvement in this website courtsey you all-Danny Yee,Impumozi,AMbrooEY,Mukund and many more.Please keep it up.---dbkasar@yahoo.com

Siddi Johar, A Cat !?!?
Who was Siddi Johar ??? What is Abyssinian ??? The link to Abyssinian leads to a breed of cats from Egypt. Was Siddi Johar a cat ???? How can a cat be a general ? Please explain this and fix the link. New Rock Star 06:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed. utcursch | talk 07:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Siddi Johar
Some people from Abyssinia (Africa),were serving Bijapuri court.They were called as Habashi(since they hail from Habsan province).They were well known for their daring .Siddi Johar was one of them.So was Siddi of Janjira, an island fort in the vicinity of Mumbai.Dbkasar 06:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC) dbkasar@yahoo.com

From Vishal Prakash Dudhane
Why Shivaji's war Flag is Bhagawaa or saffron colour or Orange colour??? Most people think that it is because King Shivaji was champion of Hindu Religion so that his flag colour is, was Orange or Bhagwa colour but to my notion this conclusion is not correct. The right reasone i found in Maratha clan each cclan aahs its own flag colour for example The Pawaar clan has Red colour flag. So is the Bhosale clan haas gotta Orange or Bhagwa colour flag. The importance of Sivaji,s freedom stugulle and Hindu religion was so great that afterwards all Hindu religion and their temples began to use Orange or Bhgwa colour as the Hindu religion petant colour. But we all should know that all the credit, importance goes to King Shivaji and his Bonsale clan of Maratha. I have put forward a very importaant and contravaarcial notion in this addition. All the historian should note my this graate point i have found. --- Vishal Prakash Dudhane, Pune City


 * Sounds interesting, but keep in mind that Wikipedia has a No Original Research policy. -- Danny Yee 10:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Bhagwa Jhenda
Your view is correct.But please note that Bhagwa(Saffron)colour is sacred to Lord Shiva .The flag was used since ancient times.Bhosale clan might have been using.If you know flags of all clans,please furnish that information over here.Dbkasar 06:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Added Information
I've added some information on "Shivaji and religion". The information is authentic and I've also cited the sources and references in the references sub-section. This article needs to expanded. Ashay Arekar 14:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC) info added is good.I have made a little change --muslims soldiers were mainly in navy e.g.DaulatKhan etc.-DbkasarDbkasar 04:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

genealogy
"Shivaji is said to be from the Hoysal Marathe clan of Marathas."

We need to confirm this so we can change "is said to be" to "is"; otherwise it's not encyclopedic. -- Danny Yee 02:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Attention-Danny Yee This theory was put forward by one renownwed scholar Shri Dhere a few years back.However it is not accepted.Moreover shivaji's anscestry is confirmed from Rana of Udaipur since ancient times.Hoyasal were one of Yadavas.Shahaji's mother was from Nimbalkar(Pawar/Parmar) family of Phaltan.Many historians are not well aware details of Shivaji's relations and as a result this kind of confusion occurs.please avoid this kind of statement.Even you can refer Encyclopedia of Mewar prepared by royal house of mewar.--dbkasarDbkasar 04:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * No worries - I'd already taken that out of the article after it was added by an anonymous contributor. We really need references/citations for this article, and we should leave out anything that's "original research", following policy WP:NOR. -- Danny Yee 05:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

World of Biography
Hi, i would like to add external link of Shivaji Maharaj's biography available at (World of Biography) --Kbi911 10:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not really useable as reference, as it provides no information about sources. (Nor does this article in most places, but that's something we need to work on.) -- Danny Yee 06:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Danny, agree with you, as i am directly representing world of biography, i can say we have the hard copied version of bibliography which we will add to this and let you all know. This site was formerly known as top-biography.com --Kbi911 08:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Image Deletion
Why is the image deleted now and then. Last version had the same image twice on the page. Please mention the reason. New Rock Star 15:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

who struck first
Minor point, but didn't afzal khan try to stab shivaji first, but had his dagger turned by the armor the prince was wearing?

I too think, it was Afzal khan who struck first. Being brought up in Maharashtra, I remember the school textbook in which it was mentioned that Afzal Khan struck Shivaji first. So, I have edited the matter. But I may be wrong. So please edit again if you want - Maha Mantri, 02 March 2006

Should--
In reference with above remark, it is a request to post the remark at the concerned page.dbkasar210.211.136.93 04:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I give up
I've given up on trying to make this article a featured article. The language of the article has been virtually down downhill since i last cleaned it. Friends before adding anything to this article atleast make sure that you use legible and grammatically correct (& non-archaic) English. अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 12:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I've fallen way behind with the editing, and stuff seems to be added faster than I can manage anyway. -- Danny Yee 12:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Mansbadar
Attn-Danny Yee Shivaji did not accept mughal mansab for himself, it was for his son, Sambhaji.Please correct it.Dbkasar1 05:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

prince on mission
"Prince on Mission" is something you'd put in a newspaper story, not an encyclopedia heading. And do we really need another heading here anyway? -- Danny Yee 23:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Attn--Danny Yee 'Prince in Mission' ---you are right.My only intention is to put in a new perspective.If you feel to edit it, please edit .dbkasar210.211.136.93 04:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

James Laine
Atten--Danny Yee Devotional and political approaches to Shivaji have clashed with historical ones. The publication in 2003 of James W. Laine's Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India [5] sparked controversy in India for its inclusion of contemporary speculation allegedly derogatory of Shivaji--- Regarding this information, please note that Laine's remark was not a historical one , rather it was a joke as per his own information.So please drop above sentenance.---DBKASAR@YAHOO.COM
 * Laine presented a historical treatment of sources which included some jokes. It's a small part of his book and wouldn't warrant a mention anywhere if it weren't for the response. -- Danny Yee 12:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Atten--Dany Yee Laine had tried to interpret sources in a bit difernt way ,although not a new one.As far as any source is concerned, no such joke about shivaji is mentioned in any source.My objection is to following line from his book' naugtliy jokesabout Shivaji--'.Is a joke in a board room is a historical fact? Secondly whether james laine and his friends who are cracking jokes, are they contemporary of Shivaji? That is why I am saying there is as such nothing 'historical' about it.Hence please delete the above line.The clash was between this kind of silly jokes and politically motivated forces.In nutshell, this was not a clash of a 'scholar' and a 'devotee'.

As far as criticism of Shivaji is concerned ,before laines many people have critically evaluated shivaji's regime and such scholarly accounts are well received, although they may not always speak good about shivaji. I am open to all discussions.

dbkasar@yahoo.com


 * I don't see the problem. Laine and Bahulkar are historians and Laine's approach is historical.  There are lots of ways in which Laine's history could be criticised as history, but the attack on BORI and calls for censorship clearly aren't criticisms of that kind. Their motivation seems to be at partly devotional - that's what some of the participants claim and it's understandable that those who see Shivaji as divine would have some problems with treatment of him as a historical figure - and at least partly political - it seems to have been taken up by various politicians as a way of currying support.  (Maybe "clash" isn't the right word to describe the conflict here, but it doesn't seem particularly problematic given the events.) -- Danny Yee 08:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. The clash extends much further than just the jokes you mention, given the attack on BORI and the extension of censorship to cover other books. -- Danny Yee 08:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

How about changing the introductory sentence to something like "Shivaji is still capable of arousing passions" or "Shivaji's legacy remains contested"? (Neither of those sound quite right to me, but I'll think about it.) -- Danny Yee 08:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

attn-Danny yee

please note that my objection is to call a party private joke of 20th century as a source of history for 17th century.From Herodutus to Arnold Toynbee, no historian in any part of world has included a silly joke as a historical fact.My intention was to put above fact in a proper persepective.Anyhow enough is said about that matter.I leave to you. dbkasar@yahoo.com
 * Aha! This where the biggest misunderstanding about Laine's book is -- it's primarily a history of the Shivaji legend and its later (and modern) reception rather than a history of 17th century events or a biography.  Serious historians do describe satirical and humorous representations of important figures - not as evidence for details of their lives, but as evidence for how they were perceived by others (which may be significant in its own right). In some cases there are studies that deal with nothing *but* poltical satire. -- Danny Yee 07:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Royal seal of Shivaji
attn-Danny Yee Can some one insert image of the royal seal(Rajmudra) of Shivaji--Pratipchandralekhev---, in this site. dbkasar@yahoo.com

Wrong information about Afzal Khan episode
attn- It seems some one has put wrong information.Krishnaji was not the bodyguard of AfzalKhan, it was the famous Sayyad banda who was well known for his martiall skill.Krishnaji was a civil emissary, he did try to take part in the scuffle, but in no time ,he was killed. AfzalKhan was also armed and he did use dragger.If shivaji was cunning, Khan was no a saint.His earlier records speak of this-He had killed One Nayak like this way only. Basically whether Khan or Shivaji both were brave and determined to eliminate each other at any cost.One must keep these facts in mind-dbkasar@yahoo.com

Why the hell is one hindu fighting with another one?

Re: Krushnaji Bhaskar episode, according to the book Raja Shivchhatrapati by B. M. Purandare, Krushnaji Bhaskar was a civil emmisary (vakil) of Afzalkhan. He attacked Shivajiraje with a sword, and Shivajiraje tried to tell him that he will not kill a brahmin. But still Krishnaji attacked Shivaji and that's when he was killed. I am not sure where the question of defending a caste comes in the historical account? Fleiger 20:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

About Dadoji Konddev
Dadoji Konddev was deputed by Shahaji to look after his jagirs alongwith other ministers and to look after overall management .He may not be Shivaji's role model of Guru as such, but he did certain good role like conitinuing Shahaji's arrangments for Shivaji,in that sense he was one of gurus.He was a honest man and till his death he discharged his duties with total loyalty to his master Shahaji.Nowdays some people who are not well acquainted with these facts are unnecessary creating these controversies for selffish gains.We may avoid such misrepresentation of information over here.dbkasar@yahoo.com

Dadoji Konddev was deputed by Shahaji to look after his jagirs alongwith other ministers and to look after overall management .He may not be Shivaji's role model of Guru as such, but he did certain good role like conitinuing Shahaji's arrangments for Shivaji,in that sense he was one of gurus.He was a honest man and till his death he discharged his duties with total loyalty to his master Shahaji.Nowdays some people who are not well acquainted with these facts are unnecessary creating these controversies for selffish gains.We may avoid such misrepresentation of information over here.dbkasar@yahoo.com -

Mr dbkasar@yahoo.com you are blaming those who are writing researching true history. Couple of months ago there is debate call to Ninad Bedekar and Purandare on the issue of Kondev and Ramdas in pune and they promised to participate first but later when they checked facts they refuse to debate strange thing is both of them always advocate Ramdas and konddev was gurus of Shivaji Maharaj. Another shocking thing is I saw a TV interview in which Purandare himself admit about Ramdas that he never meet with Maharaj. So we bahujans need to re-write true history Manuvadi Bramhins always destroyed true history and made as they are superior to Marathas

Foundation of empire
''... A royal seal was handed over to Shivaji which reads in Sanskrit: "Shivaji, son of Shahaji, is growing like the crescent of the new moon. He is there to rule for the welfare of the people". ''' --The sanskrit version is as below Pratipchandralekhev vardhishnu vishvavandita shahsunyo shivsayshya mudra bhadray rajate' dbkasar@YAHOO.COM
 * What is the Sanskrit version of this text? Did it refer to Shivaji as "Shivaji"? Or did it use the Sanskrit etymological form and call him Shivopadhyaya? Or what? Anthony Appleyard 22:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The translation can be written as "This is the royal seal of Shivaji, son of Shahaji. This royal seal is for welfare of people. This seal (the rule of the seal) will grow like the new moon grows." I am changing the article as such. The seal does not mention "Shivaji is growing" as mentioned currently... Fleiger 20:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandals running amok
Vandals are destroying this article again and again. User from IP address 203.201.222.196 removed a whole paragraph from the article without mentioning any reason. From what he did, it seems to me he is a communal user hell-bent on portraying Shivaji as communal, anti-Muslim. I have reverted the changes. Please, see to it that he doesn't do it again.

 N R S(talk to me, mail me   or award me a barnstar) 06:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Danny Yee, I can see from your credentials that you have no expertise in South Asian history. I have a degree in South Asian history and international relations from a major US university. Kindly tell me about your credentials and why you are qualified to write about Shivaji etc..P.S. haven't seen you much editing the Congress party etc...


 * You are using an anonymous IP address, so you could be anyone at all! In any event, please correct my edits and explain how they are wrong, rather than attacking me personally.  I'm always willing to learn. -- Danny Yee 00:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Qualification
Danny Yee please continue. As far as qualification is concerned, an intention to learn or to write something is important irrespective of the degree.Everyone is welcome here.Please do not generate such meaningless talk. 05:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

James laine
Someone is trying to project the writing of Mr James Laine and review of Manu Bhagwan and Dattta as kind of Myth versus history.What a sense in it?Jaimes Laine issue is ended now.Then why it is being projected again and again.Shall I say it is vandalisation of the site.Please do not blow that issue beyond proportion.

Here I am taking a brief review of James laine's cracks in narrative.Let his supporters or himself answer this.

1)Laine is criticised not for historical fact but for nasty jokes which he wanted to crack .He should have written a book called as 'Jokes on Shivaji'to which he and his maharashtrian friends would have contributed a number of jokes regarding shivaji .That itself indicates what a great person shivaji was that one has to manufacture jokes to malign a person as the contemporary records speaks very high about  him.

2)The so called cracks mentioned by James laine is nothing but taken from preface of Narhar Kurandkar to Shriman yogi(a letter dated 24.3.1966).Laines has simply translated in better english from Marathi.Any one may please compare these, one will be shocked to see this theft of scholarship.That joke is his invention and rest his theft.What a fun in this?

3)Shivaji is not known for his romatic stories, so it is understood that he was not romantic man and why he should be?He was a nation builder and not a romantic hero of either real life or screen life.Why to have such kind of expectations.

4)If shivaji was such bad man why he was appreciated by Saint Ramdas, historian like Kafi Khan of mughals and even foreign travellers of that time. They were all mythical figures and not historical one?

5)If Shivaji was content with vassal of mughals, why did he fight again.Mughals or Adilshah were ready to accomodate him otherwise. Why a man who cherished to be a local lord ,will go for building such a huge number of impressive forts ?Why he built navy?Why he did coronation?

6)Laines is wrong in saying that shivaji was having little influence of Shahaji.Can you tell me that why a council of minsiters, a royal seal and many commanders of reputation were given to him.Look at history of Tanjore and Maharashtara, you will understand what shahji is.

7)After death of Shivaji, people fought against mughals.If they were content with mansab, why they fought at all.Just for fun or what?

8)if Shivaji was a dacoit or a kind of looter, why he keep building forts, raising such excellent army and navy and good administration.

---Here is my appeal that unneccesary do not project that james laine was telling some kind of great truth and people were against it.Or there is kind of attack on freedom of speech.On the contrary he is manufacturing jokes.He shall stop it.

As far as review of book by Manu and Datta is concerned,perhaps they do not know shivaji much beyond that book.So in the interest of scholarship,better one should not write like that just for mere fun.Datta shuld not be worried about image of shivaji.Not Laines but many like him have tried to criticise shivaji from different angle,But Shivaji is shivaji.His fame is spreading day by day. Laines may be the last in criticism because the angle from which he want to sell his jokes is the lowest norm of criticism.What mean attempt can one have other than this.

Now Better Laines come forward and tell to the world that these are the maharashtrians(if any in reality) were cracking jokes and that gave him great insight into that. PLease understand the history of the people before commenting on it.Otherwise it will open a pandora's box. ---We all those who seek a knoweldge society shall refrain from jokes and myths.

kasar203.153.40.49 06:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

REVIEW OF ASIA TIMES
The said review may please merged with the overall controversy.A few defeects of the review written by Piyush Mathur. 1)As mentioned above the cracks raised by Laines are nothing but translation of Narhar Kurandkar 2)It seems scholars including Mathur have not verified as a genuine historian the content of Laine. 3)Laine himself not sure what is writing .Perhaps he wanted to show that Shivaji's life is a legend and there is as such nothing known as Shivaji. 4)OK.I says that Shivaji was not having a single quality worth.Then why Mughals or anyother power could not finish him. 5)As far as shivaji's personal life is concerned ,all contemporary speaks very high of him.Saint Ramdas is a historical figure and a vivid description of shivaji is given by him 6)Laines is wrong in that he says Shivaji did nothing to change.Here is list of the changes introduced by him---1)Rajyavavyhar kosh2)Adyapatre3)Reconversion of those who want to comeback4)TRUE secular policy5)Building of navy.Laines is not aware that seavoyage was a taboo in medieval society.Shivaji not only broke that taboo but built the chain of forts along the seacoast. 7)Laines is wrong in that he says that Shivaji was having harem.He was having 8 wifes not concubnes.Probably he relying of Ramdasi Bakhar about which autheticity no one agrees 8)James Laine deliberetly and wrongly says that Shivaji's son Sambhaji married his daughter to mughals.It is a great insult to the great warrior who accepted death than conversion.After his death mughals caught hold of one dancer from his harem to whom some one had married. It is not a case like Jaipur royal family who gave daughters in marriage to mughals.Please donot misquote 9)Shivaji was a sovereign.He issued coins in his name 10)He was a founder of maratha empire like anyother empire ,he was not a warmongor 11)Shivaji was a constructive genius. 12)Better look Shivaji in the contemporary framework. 13)No one says that Shivaji is a god or the perfect man.But this is not the way to evaluate any personlity.Why to have a different criteria for Shivaji. 14)The review by Mathur does not bother to verify the evidence on which Laines is writing. 15)He is writing a book on history not a religion. 16)Shivaji did not prove his kshatriyahood.He assumed the command of all kshatriyas . 17)Aurangzeb could finish Adilshahi and Qutbshahi ,but not Marathas.Can any hisotrian explain that why people fought for 27 years against one of the most powerful army of the world. 18)Shivaji was not a rebel.No doubt he served for a brief stint with mughals after his defeat,but there was no alternative.Shivaji was a practical man.But ultimately he achieved what he wanted. 19)Shivaji is not worshipped for his caste or religion or region.There are many great persons for this claim.Shivaji appeals to those who loves a daring life and beyond sectarian differences. 20)If some people are making political gain out of him, what he can do?He is no more. Does mathur is having any answer for this.If he is having or the person who are quoting hsi review here,come forward openely discuss with each and every point raised by Laines or any one. -- I am open to all discussions.Let us call a spade a spade in the interest of true history. Shivaji is not a legend, he has made history.This cultural terrorist like Laines can not undo it. Welcome any reaction with open mind. kasarKasar 17:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has a "No Original Research" policy WP:NOR, which means that we need to find sources for different points of view, rather than coming up with our own arguments for them. -- Danny Yee 00:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Good intention
Attn-Danny yee. What is my concern is that the attack on the BORI should not be used to shield the lies of Mr.Laines.We all condemn attack and those persons also have suffered imprisonment.But what I am observing is that some individuals are using it as strategy to create an atmosphere that there is quite dangerous scene in Maharashtra regarding freedom of expressions .And as if entire population is like terrorist and vandalising the great institutions .And only Mr Laines and his cotere of not more than 10 persons are great champions of freedom and truth seeking fellows. That is why I have exposed above his fallacy.let international community should know his theft.

Can anyone tell me that the great institute is there since many years, why it was not attacked earlier .Mr Bhandarkar was a great scholar.People have always respect for him and the institute.But if tomorrow instead of research, you  start abusing and cracking all kinds of nonsense jokes as if you are street boy,what will be the reaction.You will loose respect and those illeterate fellows are bound beat you .Because that is their way of freedom of expression. Simply to say had not been the jokes cracked there as alleged by Laines himself,there would not have been attack.Those who attacked are no doubt barbarians or whatever you want to call.But then who provoked such people is not less than a barbarian.

My good intention is that oneside view of any event shall not be given.Secondly it is not myth against history.It is history against nonsense jokes. As you mentioned, there is no 'original research policy '.I do respect it.So I am closing this matter. kasarKasar 08:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Foreign travellers' accounts of Shivaji
I have added this para.These accounts are availble in Paris .In India,these are availble in S.N.SEN'S book'Foreign accounts of Shivaji'.S.N.Sen was a noted historian and well known for his objective studies. kasar59.184.147.197 12:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds like an interesting book! You might want to add it to the references. Also, can you check the wording of the quotes and make sure they are exactly corect? -- Danny Yee 00:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

--OK.Wording is fro the book only.But again I will confirm.Perhaps it is english translation from french.

Revolution in military organisation
I have added now revolution in military organisation for which a number of books are availble.If any doubt is there ,please let me know so that I can explian in detail.kasar203.153.40.49 12:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply regarding Saint Ramdas
Please remember again that Shivaji and Ramdas might not have met.But they were both great persons of their respective field.Even iF Ramdas is not guru of Sivaji,that will not make difference to his greatness .His dasbodh is a commendable work and hundreds of household reads it.Conversely if Shivaji is not discplie of Ramdas, that does not lower his image.He is a great person in himself. --Now look at this fact.Please go through eulogy of Shivaji written by Ramdas.No one else had written like that. --Shivaji was a religious man and had respect for all saints even of other religion.So is it possible that he will not respect a saint like Ramdas? ---I request you to visit 'Shivthar ghal' where Ramdas used to mediate and Fort RAIGARH which was capital Shivaji.Then tell me. --My request is that both are great persons and had respect for each other.Why to make a mess due to our narrow and selfish ,misguided outlook. --Please react in a rational manner who is saying that I am putting in a wrong fashion.Correct me if I am wrong .Sorry I am not blaming anyone.Ultimatley it is freedom to have any view.But in the interest of truth let us be rational.kasar59.184.160.172 16:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC) 16:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC) -

Reply regarding Ramdas
Ramdas and Shivaji never meet nor was Kondev his Guru it’s very much clear now. Strange thing is people like Purandare and Ninad bedekar who always portrayed Ramdas and kondev as Shivaji’s guru lost the debate and fails to establish this. Even pune Municipal Corporation (Read cover story Pune News Line June 17 2006) declared there is no proof about kondev was guru of Shivaji. I myself saw a Television interview on a doordarshan where purandare accept that there is no proof of Ramdas Shivaji meeting.

Now even doubting they both ever meet your saying

You wrote:-‘Why to make a mess due to our narrow and selfish ,misguided outlook’

Friend why don’t you think about why some people made ramdas guru of Shivaji? What is there intention to do so? Aren’t they wanted to show ramdas was greater than Shivaji and what Shivaji did is just because of ramdas? Isn’t this very much discrediting what Shivaji did? Why always they put Bramhin greater than bahujans? Why should we tolerate this?

You wrote:- ‘iF Ramdas is not guru of Sivaji,that will not make difference to his greatness .His dasbodh is a commendable work and hundreds of household reads it.Conversely if Shivaji is not discplie of Ramdas, that does not lower his image.He is a great person in himself’.

If without being Guru of Shivaji ramdas’s greatness doesn’t affected then why ramdasi make him Shivaji’s guru? Clear fact is ramdas is got much respect just because he was portrayed as guru of Shivaji without it he surly will lose his fame as saint. As there are some very cheep stories are there about him and his chief students admit this. For ex- his chief student wrote in ‘Visharam dasbodh’

Meaning is if even guru did false act then also he is greatest in world and heaven, even if he did sex with his students then also worshipped him as lord Krishna
 * Guru jari zala brastha tari to tini loki shrest ||
 * kele jari jar karm, Krishna roop samzawa ||

You wrote:- Now look at this fact.Please go through eulogy of Shivaji written by Ramdas.No one else had written like that. Dint he wrote this too


 * Rajya nele malice kshetri ||
 * gurutatv nele kupatri ||
 * aapan arantri na tarantri kahich nahi ||

Das bodh 14-7

Meaning is kingdom is captured by mugals or Kshatriya and lost casts became Gurus we (Bramhins) dosnt have this or that

So my friend isn’t this he is complaining against Shivaji because in Maharastra Shivaji was the only Hindu king

You wrote:- Shivaji was a religious man and had respect for all saints even of other religion.So is it possible that he will not respect a saint like Ramdas

Agreed but is Bramhin historians ever say other saints are guru of Shivaji? Why only ramdas?

You wrote :- My request is that both are great persons and had respect for each other.Why to make a mess due to our narrow and selfish ,misguided outlook.

If you read Das bodh by ramdas I don’t think you will respect him

Some examples of ramdas in which he made bramhins are greatest over every one


 * devi bramhin satta kari||
 * to yek murkh||

dasboth-2-1-68 meaning whoever is punishing (by law) bramhin is biggest fool

Another example


 * jari bramhin mudh mati tari to jag dvand ||

dasbodh 5

meaning is even if Bramhin is biggest fool then also he is master or guru of world

References- Dasbodh by ramdas, vividh gyan vistar july 1929 by NR Fatak, '''Ramdas ani peshvai by Prof M M Deshmukh. Nagpur,''' Pune News Line June 17 2006 The Indian Express

Battle of Kolhapur
I have added battle of Kolhapur and has created a separate hyperlink page for the same.I think we can have separate page for each battle/military enterprise.That will amke this page less cumbersome and we can have many more information.By all conservative estimates there are not less than 10 major military actions apart from innumberable sieges of forts.This will create wealth of inforamtion and an insight into military genius of Shivaji in-depth.kasarKasar 17:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good thinking. This article is too long, and would be better with specialised topics dealt with in separate articles.  Also, I don't think we need quite so much detail about the Afzal Khan encounter. The aim of this article should be to provide a general introduction to Shivaji suitable for people who may not know anything about him, not to be a compendium of all the information available. -- Danny Yee 02:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Afzal Khan and other
I have modified Afzal Khan and Siddi jauhar as battle of Pratapgarh and Pavan Khind.If some one want to add or edit please do it.We can make subgroup of battles,military organisation,architecture,social and religious policies.That will give a brief review of Shivaji and also full details in hyperlink pages. --Then on ecan understand that the history of Shivaji is not mythical.For example I have added 'Battle of Marathon' on the hyperlink page of battle of pavan Khind.Please compare both battles.Then any one will find that Baji Prabhu did a same role like King Leodinas under almost similar circumstances.So where is the myth? Is not the battle of marathon true?Yes, it is true.We are proud of that tradition and that is why we are organisng 'marathons in its memory. --So if we celebrate trek in the memory of Baji Prabhu,Shiva Barber and their king Shivaji, how it comes a part of politicisation and fundamentalist?How it is a myth? --Hence I am appealing again to international community please note that it is not against myth ,but mockery of our battles and traditions ,we feel angry. -let us respect each other. Kasar 12:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong facts about Coronation
Atten---the person who have added following para Coronation was not just accepted by every one, Bramhins of Maharastra was very much against this coronation because they wanted to preserve the varna (cast) system according to which one who is not Bramhin (Prist) or Kshtriya (worriar cast) cannot be a King and in Kaliyuga only two Varna are present Bramhin and Kshtriya. So Bramhin considered Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj was sudra and have no right to Coronation. Hece no Bramhin from Maharastra was ready to do rituals for Maharaj. But Maharaj invite a young prist from Varanasi named GagaBhatta for Coronation ritual and he agreed to do so because of heavy offering and proof which says Maharaj was belong to kshtrya kula (Sisodiya)

Please do not include afterthought fact.It is not history.Before Shivaji ,not even Vijayanagar or Rajputs kings have performed 'indrabhishek'.After 1000AD, somehow there was overall fall of traditions. With Yadava's fall, vedic traditions in maharashtra went into Oblivion.By the time of Shivaji, there was fall of standard.Please refere Saint Ramdas for vivid description of fallen standard of vedic tradition. --There was no one in maratha country who was acquainted with all vedas and whose authority was recognised all over India.Gagabhat was a renowned one for his command over Vedas.---After Coronation,Shivaji sent some brahmins from Maharashtra to Kashi to learn for future use.That was continued by Sambhaji,then Dabhade sardar and Nanasaheb to some extent. --Shivaji was himself a scholar person evident from his letters ,rajmudras and constructions.Against the prevailing practise of Hindus or more precisely Sanatana dharma, he allowed the converted Hindus back to mainfold of Hindu.He raised the navy when sea travel was a taboo.he allowed lower classes to wield the weapon when it was a taboo.So in continuation of this ,he did coronation. Gagabhat was a sanyasi and was having enough income.Shivaji's donation was not a much difference to him.He understood need of the hour and out of respect of Shivaji,he did take risk. -As far as Brahmins of maharashtras are concerned ,more specifically vedics of Shivaji's time, many of them have devoted their life to Shivaji e.g.Moropant.Annaji Dutto,Vishwasrao and many more. -As far as oppostion to Shivaji is concerend,Right from Chandrarao more to Khandoji khopade, and Adilshah to mughals did their best to oppose him.But shivaji by his valour and wisdom prevailed over them. What is my point do not impose personal prejudices over Shivaji or that period. Society do change with time.Careful go through the long list of the persons who fought from Shivaji's side and then come back.If they were opposing to Shivaji,whethere they were mad persons to die for him? ---You are mentioned a view projected by certain individuals in the circustances arised with introduction of British power .Society in 20th century is different from 19th, so was from 19th to 18th and so was 17th to 16th. --Had marathas been such caste ridden society there would not have been rise of so may poor persons.What was the social position of Malharrao Holkar,Balaji Vishwnath,Ranoji Shinde before their rise? --In fact to whom you are refering, please look at their background.Had not Shivaji they would not have been there. PLase react -Kasar203.153.40.49 05:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC) ---Further note that No sisodiya ruler has performed coronation icluidinG Rana Sang or Pratap or even before.They have rendered great service to the nation ,there is no doubt about it.So it is not that Shivaji being Sisodia performed the ceremony.He happens to be from that family ,that is a different matter. ---Shivaji revived the forgotten tradition just like other forgotten traditions.So please look from a big angle. -It was declaration of sovereignity than anything else. ---And even if we go as per manusmriti(if at all we want)what he says that there is no aryavarta beyond his 50 kms area in upper Doab. ---You are a kshatriya or a Brahmin or even a shudra or even a citizen if you are ruling by own people as per sanatan dharma.If you are being ruled by others specailly and scornfully'mleccha',what is the status of slaves? --So technically was there anyone before Shivaji in a true sense belonging to any varna ? ---So what is my point let us not dig hisotry from own prejudices and own narrow outlook. ---300 years backs marathas carried their arms vanquishing all those who are now claiming tall claims and refering to scriptures .Where were they when maratahs have defeated one after one ? --If the people who fought on the battlefield and won the battle are not kshatriya, then who is a kshtriya? --Let us refer most ancient text of sanatana dharma-Rigveda.What rigveda says?Does it mention any ritual to become any varna.Answer is No.It praises Indra for killing demoni.e Karma. --Hence do not get carried away by the garbage created by these sundry persons in the garb of flowery language due to lack of knowledge and selffish ends. ---Let us keep away these petty points and contribute richly to the site -Shivaji's rich and colourful life.So that many persons in the world get inspired to win against all odds--And that is Shivaji.And that is the character of human civilisation. kasar203.153.40.49 05:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC) ---

Facts about Coronation
You wrote:-'Please do not include afterthought fact'.

It is not history? It is not history? According to whom? To what you call history we have historians like purandare and bedekar who intentionally misguiding people by putting wrong information’s even in history books of children they polluted everything for example in interviews they did admit no proof for ramdas meeting with Shivaji but in text books they mention there is meeting, in the Janta raja play they intestinally show Shaniwarwada as a palace of Shivaji fact is Shivaji’s palace is lalmahal and sanivarwada built after Shivaji,  So to whom you believe?

You wrote:- 'There was no one in maratha country who was acquainted with all vedas and whose authority was recognised all over India.Gagabhat was a renowned one for his command over Vedas.---After Coronation,Shivaji sent some brahmins from Maharashtra to Kashi to learn for future use.That was continued by Sambhaji,then Dabhade sardar and Nanasaheb to some extent'.

It’s very much strange in Maharastra no one is well acquainted in Vedas, and without being well acquainted in Vedas how the Bramhin calls them Bramhin? and how do they perform other rituals?

You wrote:- 'Shivaji was himself a scholar person evident from his letters ,rajmudras and constructions.Against the prevailing practise of Hindus or more precisely Sanatana dharma, he allowed the converted Hindus back to mainfold of Hindu.He raised the navy when sea travel was a taboo.he allowed lower classes to wield the weapon when it was a taboo.So in continuation of this ,he did coronation'.

It’s true what you wrote above but above mentioned qualities make him different and unique he dint follow the tradition if tradition became barrier in progress but he was not a man of sanantan dharma (you must have to define what is sanantan dharma) (I am taking the term sanantan dharma as vedik dharma or vaishnaw dharma) he indeed was follower of Shaiv(Shaiv not Shiv) dharma. As per coronation is concern its nothing to do with religion but politics (1)without coronation he was unable to make treaties with others (2)without coronation his people will never follow him as king hence its difficult to be loyal to people if one is not king and known as landlord or something like that. (3)Adilshah, Nizamshah and mugals was just considered him as rebellious son of jahagirdar without coronation And don’t forget he was not belief much in first coronation which is vedic and that’s why he had second one within a year as per shaiv or tantric process

You worte:- 'Gagabhat was a sanyasi and was having enough income.Shivaji's donation was not a much difference to him.He understood need of the hour and out of respect of Shivaji,he did take risk'.

Gagabhatt may have enough income but whatever it was is nothing in compare to the offering which he got from Shivaji. He got 17000 hone (1 hone = 3 rupee) and for details please read (1) Shivaji the founder of maratha Swaraj page no 248-252 by C V Vaidya (2) Shivaji kon hota by comrade Govind pansare

You wrote:- 'As far as Brahmins of maharashtras are concerned ,more specifically vedics of Shivaji's time, many of them have devoted their life to Shivaji e.g.Moropant.Annaji Dutto,Vishwasrao and many more'.

You are misguiding people by saying above why you are not stating the fact that Moropant pingle was among those who denied the right of coronation of Shivaji on cast basis infact some Bramhins who are not purohits or religious people do favor Shivaji but most of are against Please read Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar writings and Speeches volume 7 chapter 10, page no.156-185 published by Maharastra State Government. You will find various proofs / references mention by Dr. Ambedkar about how coronation was denied by most of Bramhins

You wrote:- 'As far as oppostion to Shivaji is concerend,Right from Chandrarao more to Khandoji khopade, and Adilshah to mughals did their best to oppose him.But shivaji by his valour and wisdom prevailed over them'

Shivaji was enemy of mughals and adilshah so they opposed to him but please mention on what basis and why Chandrarao more to Khandoji khopade oppose him

You wrote:- 'What is my point do not impose personal prejudices over Shivaji or that period'.

The same was happened in history and hence history was pullulated now days those who wrote or appreciate such history are loosing every debate and start accepting newly discovered facts. Please don’t pollute web media if you can’t debate with Shrimant kokate Jaishingrao Pawar or purshottam khedekar. If you want I will arrange a debate if you are ready

You wrote:- 'Society do change with time.Careful go through the long list of the persons who fought from Shivaji's side and then come back.If they were opposing to Shivaji,whethere they were mad persons to die for him'?

Society doesn’t change automatically but people changes it and if now a days society is different that doesn’t mean what happened in 16th, 17th 18th century was justiceful or we have to denied it because now days picture is changed

Your Wrote:-'Hence do not get carried away by the garbage created by these sundry persons in the garb of flowery language due to lack of knowledge and selffish ends'

Dont just call it garbage if you think so then debate and prove your point. We are ready

'''References:- (1) Shivaji the founder of maratha Swaraj page no 248-252 by C V Vaidya (2) Shivaji kon hota by comrade Govind pansare (3) Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar writings and Speeches volume 7 chapter 10, page no.156-    185 published by Maharastra State Government'''

Debate
OK.We can debate it .Meanwhile keep aside these differences and contribute to this site regarding Shivaji's adminstration,battles,forts ,images any.Please react. kasar59.184.173.82 17:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Coronation Debate
Friend I am glad you have an open mind and ready to debate it, actually I have lots of reference to prove my point about people who opposed coronation on the basis of cast and about Krishna Bhaskar kulkarni so I request you please don’t edit it. I wonder people edit the part in which Bramhin person is acted as anti swaraj and anti Shivaji but explain in ‘great detail’ how moguls and Muslims was Shivaji’s enemy

Please debate here matter concerning Shivaji only
, Writing credits Vijay Tendulkar and actors Mohan Agashe .... Maruti Kamble ( AS a Dalit ) --- Shreeram Lagoo .... Mystic Hobo ( AS a Bramin ) --- Nilu Phule .... Hindurao Dhonde Patil ( AS A Maratha ) Watch and listen carefully the dialogues. Even the slang and curse have gotta meaning. This movie throw light on an Maratha strongman and Maratha politics. The origin of Bramin caste in Maharashtra and Maratha - Bramin caste struggle can be found within the movie. How Hindurao Dhonde Patil pick up the Shreeram Lagoo .... Mystic Hobo from street, gutter and give shelter in his home but afterwards he proved to be a snake. The main two personalities Shreeram Lagoo .... Mystic Hobo ( AS a Bramin ) ---is a drunckard, looser and sinister man and other is Nilu Phule ....  Hindurao Dhonde Patil ( AS A Maratha ) an established politician , businessman and king of his area , but looking for expanding his power and want to get reconised by sclores and intelectuales , have trust on Shreeram Lagoo ....  Mystic Hobo ( AS a Bramin ) --- but is bettryed by him. Once again Hindurao Dhonde Patil ( AS A Maratha ) makes very traditional mistake of haveing trust and wanting certificate degree from Shreeram Lagoo .... Mystic Hobo ( AS a Bramin ) --- the main enimy of maratha. Which at the end proved to be main reasion for self destrication.
 * 1) Watch the marathi movie Samana ( Samna ) (1974) - Directed by Jabbar Patel

2) Book :- British Kawa Parwad Bhartachi  Author :-   Advocate Manikrao Narsingrao Patil Main distributor :- Shree P.G.Karandikar 1225 Deccan Jimkhana Pune 411004.

In this book the author have successfully proved with evidence that how the British during the regiment in India cunningly distroyed the Maratha Ecosystem, nation, pepole and made them poor in all manner. The British had noticed that the Maratha are the only, original warrior caste of India and the foundation stock for all other worrior caste of India. The desasterous effects of British Educational policies through Macol educational system on mind of Indian youth. How glorious, selfemployed were the olden Maratha period and how the British destroyed it and gave birth to their lads.

3)Sinhasan Sinhasan Starcast: Sriram Lagoo, Arun Sarnaik, Nilu Phule, Nana Patekar and Mohan Agashe Director: Jabbar Patel- Another masterpiece by Jabbar Patel, shows a political battle in Maharashtra politics. The movie won the Rajat Kamal Award for the Best Marathi film in 1979. 1979 Best Film: Sinhasan, Best Director: r. Jabbar Patel, Best Producer.

4)* Links to Maratha Organisations :- http://www.shivdharma.com


 * 5 ) I have heard from many peoples that this marathi movie Sangte Aika ( 1959 ) -- Director Anant Mane was the gratest hit of all times . Please get someone a review .Credited cast: Chandrakant ....  Sakharam Jayshree Gadkar ....  Sakharam's Daughter Dada Salvi ....  Mahadev Patil of Rajura Sulochana ....  Sakharam's Wife Suryakant ....  Patil's Son Hansa Wadkar ....  Chima


 * 6) Name of the film: Tambadi Mati  Direction: Bhalji Pendharkar  (1969),Production: Gayatri Chitra Music: Anandghan ,Artiste 1: Anupama Artiste 2: Shaktikumar Artiste 3: Dada Kondke, Language: Marathi - This is a good flim focusing on a maratha wrestler life and wrestling culter of Kolhapur city.


 * 7) PINJRA (1973) Actors : - SANDHYA, SHRIRAM LAGU, RAJA GOSAVI, VATSALA DESHMUKH ,Produced By: SHANTARAM PROD., Directed By: V. SHANTARAM  ,Music By: RAM KADAM  --- A good social movie based on a village school teacher --- how he changes the ethics of the village to good and later because offa a Tamasha ( Cabera ) Dancer takes him to the living Hell. How a heaven like village is destroyed because of liquiour , dance and bad habbits.


 * 8) Book :- . Prachin Maharashtra w Thor Parakrami Marathe, Author :- Shree Ashokrao Shinde Sarkar, Publisher :- Siddhagiree Gurukul Foundation , Kaneree , Kolhapur -- A good book , the author haveing realistic , Comprehencive and panoramic view over Maratha history and caste.

9) Grate original historian Shree Purshottam Nagesh Oak

Born in Indore, Madhya Pradesh on 2 March 1917. He is M.A, L.L.B of Mumbai University. During 1942 – 1945 he was colleague of grate Indian freedom fighter Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose: The Forgotten Hero, as organizer, freedom reporter on Saigon radio station. He has published two books about those days namely Hindustanche Dusare Swatantrayuddha (Second freedom war of India) and Netajinche Sahawasat (In company of Netaji ). After the end of war he traveled on feet the 3500 miles walk from Singapore to Calcutta.During 1947 to 1953 P.N.Oak was press reporter in Delhi new papers The Hindustan Times and The Statesman. During 1953 to 1957 he was head of department in the Indian central Radio and Public Ministry. During 1959 to 1974 he was editor in department of information of American Embassy. Since 1959 Shree Purshottam Nagesh Oak has a new eye, vision in history and has made many eye opening discoveries. He has shown politics and blunders in world, Indian history. He has raised many questions about current ruling history. He has made fundamental changes in writing history and has published many books. When I Vishal Prakash Dudhane was in college I have met Shree Purshottam Nagesh Oak and talk about his vision. I got blessings from him and I was very happy that at last I am not the only one who is unhappy about current situation in world and Maratha history. I refer all this books to all wikipedian's. As a citizen of Pune city I never read his name news papers or any books and I think that he was cunningly ignored and boycott by intellectuals of India and world. The fundamental work in modern history he has done is enough to give him a place in the history of time itself although not in the world dominated by western civilizations. History will all remember and be thankful to him for his outstanding achievements.

Institute For Rewriting Indian (And World) History; Plot No 10, Goodwill Society, Aundh, Pune - 411007. India -Telephone. 020-5888449

Books written by Shree Purshottam Nagesh Oak :- 1) World Vedic Heritage. 2) Some Blunders of Indian Historical Research. 3) FowlerS' Howlers. 4) Some Missing Chapters of World History. 5) Agra Red Fort Is a Hindu Building. 6) Great Britain was Hindu land. 7) The Tajmahal is Tejomahalaya, A Shiv Temple. 8) Who Says Akbar Was Great. 9) Fatehpure Sikri is a Hindu City. 10) Delhi's Red fort is Hindu Lalkot. 11) Lucknow's Imambaras are Hindu Places. 12) Christianity is Christen-ity (i.e. the Chrisn – cult). 13) A Shiv Temple. 14) Vedic Guide to Health, Beauty, Longevity and Rejuvenation. 15) Learn Vedic Astrology.


 * Oak's not a man to be taken seriously. Anyone who heads an organisation that takes upon itself the task of "rewriting" history is at best suspect. He's associated with the Hindutva movement and has lots of laughable claims (eg. His explanation of the term Christianity being a corruption of term "Krishna-neeti" ignores the fact that the term is anglican and not something that existed at the time of Jesus himself). I don't think there was a secret conspiracy to boycott the man. I just think that his claims are so laughable that no one took them seriously. --Nkv 18:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

oak's writing
For a moment I agree with above views.But then there is nothing worth in other civilization or what?What is preventing us building another Tajmahal?Pl. respect others also .Vedic civilization is great civilization ,but it has got it own drawback.Why Indians are not causing any worth inventin in their own land and why either they are just copying western civilization or running towards that land.If we claim ,this world was created by our forefathers,let us make India a superpower?Can we apart from emotional appeals and poitical slogans? Better do not get carried away by such grandisoe thoughts of the illusiory past,that deters you from innovating anything worth.Let us be rational entity that may cause some real progress .And please discuss this on the relevant page of Akbar,Tajmahal or vedic.Let us not make shviaji's discussion page as a melting pot of controversies. kasar

Contribution to the site
Atten-all Right now I am reorganising this page on a better line .Please all contribute instead of petty debates.Debates are bound to generate in an open society ,but that is how knoweldge one gets. Let us not watse time on such worthless dabates.It is my request not to generalise statements or view.No society in this world is a perfect one.It is bound to be good and bad points of every society. Someone is projecting unnecessary much anti-Brahmin kind of view. I think one should not be so much biased.If we assume that there are 10 historians who have written about shivaji,7 will be Brahmnins even today and as on date i.e.25 august,2006.Do you say every one has written bad about shivaji?Was not there a single Brahmin in favour of Shivaji or in his enterprise of swarajya making? -Do not waste talent and time in these politically motivated analysis of history for certain gains.Please do not behave like James Laine-to quote selectively and denying each and every thing that is good about Shivaji. ---For example-Laines had mentioned that 'Marathas eat in one plate .I am a maratha .This is not a practise among marathas.I do not know of which Marathas, he is talking about or he had seen? Likewiese I Know many brahmins who are almost devotee of Shivaji.I do not know of which hypothetical brahmin society you are talking who were/are in total opposition to Shviaji'enterprise in the past. That is a game of politics.Here is history.let us not deny contribution of any one whoever has contributed to making Shivaji's personality.He was a lion hearted king who admitted all sections of society .We are his followers ,why to exclude some names just for petty politics of caste or religion.Be positive and constructive.

kasar59.184.155.69 05:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply to 'Contribution to the site'
You Wrote:-“Someone is projecting unnecessary much anti-Brahmin kind of view. I think one should not be so much biased. If we assume that there are 10 historians who have written about shivaji,7 will be Brahmnins even today and as on date i.e.25 august,2006.Do you say every one has written bad about shivaji?Was not there a single Brahmin in favour of Shivaji or in his enterprise of swarajya making?”

My dear friend you misunderstood me and my intention I put the fact that Bramhins are against Coronation or they denied Shivaji’s right to become a king.

Actually I put this fact because this fact is not mentioned on Wikipedia and this fact shows Shivaji’s greatness that he dint care much of such people who are stigma on society and this fact make him unique that he was among the very first people who have guts and courage to break wrong customs, this fact established him as such king who have clear vision of how he wanted his kingdom should be means no one would be considered as great or low on the basis of cast. And that’s why he has almost every cast people on most important positions in his swaraj. This fact gives him a unique position which very few achieved in past history. And my friend what he did against bad customs 300 years ago is difficult or almost impossible for some even now

But I dint put it because I am anti bramhin, No I am not. And it is not biased or prejudiced but only a pure historical fact

Strange thing is first you said

“'Please do not include afterthought fact'”

But may be you ignored this facts are first put in lime light by the man who bring Shivaji to a common man his name is Mahatma Jotirao Phule

Then You Wrote:- “What is my point do not impose personal prejudices over Shivaji or that period”

And I replied you that it is not persnal predudice but the historical facts mention by most respected people by different era from 1850 to 2006 from Jotirao phule to Srimant Kokate (He just recived an award for his contrubution in History) including Dr. BR Ambedkar, CV Bendre, NR. Fatak Comred Pansare ect and I even mention refrenses. why you are ignoring this people.

You Wrote:- “Do not waste talent and time in these politically motivated analysis of history for certain gains.Please do not behave like James Laine-to quote selectively and denying each and every thing that is good about Shivaji”.

My friend its strange that you are blaming people like Jotirao phule to Srimant Kokate (He just recived an award for his contrubution in History) including Dr. BR Ambedkar, CV Bendre, NR. Fatak (He is Bramhin) Comred Pansare, Jaising rao pawar, ect are politacally motivated STRANGE and what about Ninad Bedekar and Purandare who declined to debate such issues in front of retired judge what about purandare’s janta raja in which he shows Shaniwarwada as Shivaji’s palace and not lal mahal, what about purandare’s statement in various articles and text books where he shows Ramdas was guru of Shivaji but in television interview he accepted they never meet What about Shankaracharya who refuse to put flowers in front of Shivajis statue in kolahapur (recently) what about vinayak damodar Sawarkar who wrote Saha Sonere pan (Six golden pages of Hindutatva) but he dint mention Shivajis as his sonere (Golden page) pan even he dint forget to put Pushya Mitra Shung to make him golden page who is responsible for Manusmriti.

Sawarkar considered as Vigayan nist (man of Scintific views) but he wrote for Shivaji’s coronation and his winning in battelfield

“Devachi iccha mahana, daiv manha kaktatil nayay mahan kiva eksamayviched karun var aalele pik manha” page 368 Bhartiya itihasathatil saha soneri pan (Six golden pages of Indian history)

(Meaning:- it may be because of dastany, because of god’s will, or may be just a silly co-incidence or may be because privious people’s efforts, Shivaji won battels and became king)

And you bring James Laine in this debate then I want to ask you what do you think about 22 people who helps and who provides material to james Lain, all are Bramhins, would it be just co-incidense to you???

My friend if one is putting history in its true sense then he got blames of predudice that much pollutated history is by one cast. My suggestion is to you is don’t blame James lain he is just a mask try to find out if you can who is real master mind behind James Lane

And I don’t feel wekipedia is place where one can read edit / pollutated history but this a place where reader must know the facts with refresense and lets him make his own mind. (sorry for my bad English)

Reply to coronation
Please note that again.What I am saying that do not make general statement.OK .For a moment I agree with you keeping aside differences.Please tell me Justice Ranade or Tilak or Kurandakar or Modak or Setu Madhavrao Pagadi or Sardesai have not contributed anything to Shivaji's legacy? please rememeber them .All castes and religions produce good and bad persons. -OK ,For a moment I agree Brahmins have not any worth on this score.Now tell me what is done by these maratha or other leaders to preserve Shivaji's legacy? Can you show me even a single example that any maratha or likewise anyother leader have taken labour to preserve a single fort of Shivaji?Perhaps you belong to Shivdharma,do you know what is the poor condition of the pachad ,residence of Jijamata? --- Hence I am requesting again and again, do not get carry by these political slogans .Use your talent for constructive thoughts and projections.

James Laine is not a child ,he is oversmart, and more politician than a historian.Suppose people around him cracked a joke ,but then why he wrote ?Whether anyone has forced on him.He is first class nonsense fellow,knowing well what will happen, he has written.Why to blame on any community?Laines is an idiot,that does not make all Americans idiots? - Let us write more about Shivaji than gossips.There are hundred of forts, thousand of weapons and millions of papers of his period.Let us preserve it.Be lion hearted like Shivaji kasar59.184.160.178 03:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply to coronation
You wrote:-“Please note that again.What I am saying that do not make general statement.OK .For a moment I agree with you keeping aside differences.Please tell me Justice Ranade or Tilak or Kurandakar or Modak or Setu Madhavrao Pagadi or Sardesai have not contributed anything to Shivaji's legacy? please rememeber them .All castes and religions produce good and bad persons”

I appreciate your statement that all casts and religion produce good and bad persons. And I want to say don’t read what I dint write means I am talking about those bramhins who are present at shivaji’s era I am not blaming each and everyone todays. But I dint understand why you are afraid to accept that in Shivaji’s era there was a such socity (which is now much change because of efforts of Shivaji like people) in which Marathas was considered as sudra because Bramhins of that time proclaimed that Nandatam kshtriya {kshtriya’s was no more after the assasenation of nand by Chandragupt Morya As per tilak is concern I want to ask if we guess tilak was very much positive about shivaji’s coronation then why he opposed Shahu maharaj’s kstriya status when shau wanted prist must chant vedick mantras and Prist refuse because according to him shau was sudra and hence he chant puranaik mantra. Why he wrote articles against Shau’s kshtriya status in his kesri.(I can give an exact refrence I have to find out in my books) Your or some one else deletes the fact about Bramhins anti cornation just because not everyone from Bramhin is against it its like because in shivajis army and in swaraj many muslims was on important post that’s why if one is deleteing the fact of Afjul khan Shahhistakhan’s confrontations with Shivaji. Its silly and its strange too

You wrote:- “OK ,For a moment I agree Brahmins have not any worth on this score.Now tell me what is done by these maratha or other leaders to preserve Shivaji's legacy? Can you show me even a single example that any maratha or likewise anyother leader have taken labour to preserve a single fort of Shivaji?Perhaps you belong to Shivdharma,do you know what is the poor condition of the pachad ,residence of Jijamata?”

My friend marathas always preserve Shivaji’s legacy in their stories in their culture but they are not in power later on and only in that period (period of peshwai) Shivaji became disapear from limelight But again mahatma phule, Dinkarrao jawadkar, ect bring him to common man. Mahatma phule rediscover samdhi of Shivaji and he started Shiv Jayanti very first.

You Wrote:- “Hence I am requesting again and again, do not get carry by these political slogans .Use your talent for constructive thoughts and projections”

My dear friend whatever I wrote I provided the refrenses sourses from the people who are most respectable and who are from 1840 era to 2006. If you considered and judge all of them are political motivated people then its again I thinking am I posting this thing on free site or someones private property where only a particular type of thoughts and historians are accepted.

You wrote:- “James Laine is not a child ,he is oversmart, and more politician than a historian.Suppose people around him cracked a joke ,but then why he wrote ?Whether anyone has forced on him.He is first class nonsense fellow,knowing well what will happen, he has written.Why to blame on any community?Laines is an idiot,that does not make all Americans idiots?”

Its strange you dint object people who cracked joke (Very Insulting and character assassinating joke about Rastramata jijau) about Jijamata even they are well known historians then also they crack such joke and you dint blame them nor you tried to find out their intention but your blaming lane WOW its shows mentality and only mentality.

You wrote:-“ Let us write more about Shivaji than gossips.There are hundred of forts, thousand of weapons and millions of papers of his period.Let us preserve it.Be lion hearted like Shivaji kasar”

I am sorry I dint consider those things as gossips because this this things are mention by people like Fatak, Phule, and Ambedkar who wrote all those thing years ago

Finally I want to state I am not official member of Shivdharma but now after seeing how editing is going on on free web resorce I will be one of them its proved now how people assasinate charater of those who states some truth. Want to share with you that some one (who may dint like my views) redirected my username towards xxx adult contained page I complaint to wekipedia and I got following Message

“I've removed the redirect this user added to your page and warned them. - Mgm|(talk) 19:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC”

Exposing fallacy of James Laine
Atten Here I will be exposing fallacy of James Laine for the reason he is being quoted as if a great finding and truth .Those silly review of Asia times put over here do not bother to cross check what he is saying.First piece of knoweldge -- 1)Laine is not well conversant with Religion of Maharashtra and specially the countryside.Like a fool he is showing difference of Bhavani,ShiVa and Vishnu CULT.Truth is that in maharashtra vaishanva or saiva concept is not a strong one.Almost all people obeserve Ekadashi and Mahashivratri in honour of Vishnu and Shiva.Dattatreya represents all three gods.Idol worship is not prevalent in Maratha counrty side.On an average, a maratha person will worship all gods.There is not bitterness of sects. --- This type of superficial treatment of subject with flowery language does not speak good about his schoarship.Simply by quoting great dialogue ,you can not come out with concrete conclusions. It is a great insult to other traditions.Let Laines understand what will he feel if I say his mother was concubine?Shall I say using the right of freedom?Is this the right way of using freedom of expression? - --This series will continue.Let the people know the truth. KASAR59.184.160.178 03:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

False Information About Coronation
A user by the name of is adding false information about Shivaji's coronation. The information is taken from various dalitstan affiliated websites and is unauthentic, derogatory, speculatory and totally false. It does hurt the Maratha community when their supreme leader are called shudras. And when false information is posted around here. We, Marathas have nothing against shudras, it is just that we are proud of our history and don't want someone to intentionally slander, malign or derogate our history and our leaders. I urge all followers of Shivaji, irrespective of their caste, clan, religion to unite and check this user's edits. Such things should not happen and even more so in a public domain like Wikipedia.

-- N R S(talk to me, mail me   or award me a barnstar) 05:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

REPLY-False Information About Coronation
You Wrote:-“ A user by the name of Zenguru (talk • contribs • block log) is adding false information about Shivaji's coronation. The information is taken from various dalitstan affiliated websites and is unauthentic, derogatory, speculatory and totally false”

First of all I want to mention that whatever I posted I provided resources and references even page numbers and the info is not taken from any dalitastan like website but from books published by Maharastra government.

You Wrote:-“ It does hurt the Maratha community when their supreme leader are called shudras”

Yes it’s really hurts and it hurts a lot and if its hurts you too then you will be researching history even recent 1901 where shahu was declared sudra by one cast. Don’t blame me read history and ask your self

You Wrote: - “And when false information is posted around here. We, Marathas have nothing against shudras, it is just that we are proud of our history and don't want someone to intentionally slander, malign or derogate our history and our leaders. I urge all followers of Shivaji, irrespective of their caste, clan, religion to unite and check this user's edits. Such things should not happen and even more so in a public domain like Wikipedia.”

I wonder how you are editing the fact and warning me to ban if you yourself is not accepting true history. BAN me if you want but Me and people like myself are true people of Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj and we will surly researching history and will remove the stigma which some people put on our beloved Shivaji

Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj and Shahistekhan
I have read a good information in a book named Shree Chtrapati ni tanchi prabhaval about how shivaji made a surprise attack on Shahistekhan in Lal Mahal, Pune .Please use it for good. book name :- Shree Chtrapati ni tanchi prabhaval Author :- Setumadhavrao Pagadi Publisher :- Parchure Prakashan Mandir, Mehata Bhavan ,2 nd floor , 311 Raja Rammohan Ro Marg , Girgaon , Mumbai400004 Edition 1 st Januar 2000 From Vishal Prakash Dudhane, pune -- Vishal196

Why edit my coronation
Someone edit coronation section which is based on book called Me Manu Andi Sangh written by senior RSS kareykarta Shri Ramesh Patange Following is the passage from chapter two http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/mms/ch2.html “Brahmin-non-Brahmin difference form one of the darkest chapters in the history of Maharashtra. The controversy has a long historical background. At the time of Shivaji’s coronation, contemporary Brahmins in Maharashtra raised an objection to Shivaji being anointed on the basis that Shivaji Maharaj was a shudra. This prompted the Chhatrapati to call Gagabhatta from Kashi to preside over the religious ceremonies of the coronation. Brahmins also plotted against Chhatrapati Sambhaji Maharaj and later Chhatrapatis became only titular heads, and the Peshwas became the real masters. The Peshwas were brahmins. Brahmins were spiritual gurus. Now they also became political supremos. In the later period of the Peshwas, Brahmins misused their power. It was Mahatma Phule who first raised a revolt against this misuse.” He also wrote about Shau Maharaj’s vedokt prakaran and it’s shocking that lokmanya Tilak (To whom I respected lot before reading this) that how he supported to the bramhin who considered Shau and Maratha a shudra
 * I don't mean to be disrespectful, but have you considered that it was removed because the language used was not correct? Please edit the wikipedia in a language that you are comfortable in (like the Hindi wikipedia). I am sure that willcause less concern.

Seeds of Casteism
A user is trying to sow the seeds of casteism in this article. By putting false information about Coronation. It's totally false speculations and he cites references like Tilak's alleged ref to Marathas as shudra which is one of the biggest shits I've heard. Man, dont put nonsense like this in the article. RSS websites are never accountable. They release a piece of shit which you put up here.

--Mahesh Babu 09:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. - And I am wondering why regular editors like Vishal, Jai, Nrs, Danny and Kasar are not doing anything about this.

Casteism ???
No these are not seeds of castism. And if you dint know this things then you don’t know what type of society India has years ago. Update yourself about BG Tilak and Indian society. Seems you don’t know much about it

Whatever it is, there is no need for mentioning it even if it is true, which obviously it is not. So, my friend, refrain yourself from reverting back. I know very well about Tilak, and I know he hasnt made any such remarks. I have read all his books inc. Gitarahasya, Arctic Home Of Vedas and many of his biographies as well. It's just a ploy to demean the great man. And Brahmin-hater that you are, why are you slandering a Maratha leader. Anyway, another thing is that Brahmins would not have opposed Shivaji because Marathas were already ruling the Brahmins as Sardars under the Nizamshah and Adilshahis. Brahmins were mere puppets at that time. They had no power whatsoever. And they would lie that way till the Marathas would give them prime-ministership (Peshwai). Brahmins were approving the Deccan Sultans (who were Anarya. ) Then why would they oppose Shivaji ? It's not only ridiculuos but it is SILLY and NON-SENSICAL !!!! So my friend, refrain from adding such silly matter to Wikipedia.

--Mahesh Babu 14:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned 300 years ago society just to open eyes of those who thought coronation is easy task for Shivaji indeed its his greatness he cared less to supreme cast and customs. As far tilak is concern I wondered people denied that he even claim Aryan are invaders and if you want to read his remarks about Shahu as sudra status then read his articles its known as VEDOKT prakaran. I wonder you are denying tilak’s support to the bramhin who declare shahu as sudra or you are denying the whole episode? Indeed Shivaji and Shahu was great people those who call them sudra back then now a days accepting them as daivat

Hey kid, don't go on telling a bunch of lies. I am not going to respond to your stupid rants anymore. Just telling you to stop this ramblings as they ain't gonna get you anywhere but to the bloackage bin. And a piece of advice for you - Please sign your entries.

--Mahesh Babu 03:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Casteism ???
You people cannot preach much lies and false history now. People now realizing what is truth and history
 * http://shivadharma.wordpress.com/why-do-marathas-denied-hinduism/

Bramhinism and Maharashtra dharma...
Its very painful to see that on the page of Chhatrapati Shivaji,which is not just a revolutionary leader for Maharashtrians but a god indeed,casteism still prevails.

I am a so-called Bramhin and I have felt proud or ashamed of being one.In fact I have always considered as a Maharashtrian first before any other thing.Certainly 'a particular group' has oppressed 'other groups' due to then prevalent conditions and superiority complex,mentality.U cant catch hold us and beat us just because of the sins of our forefathers.Its high time to wake up and see Maharashtra and Marathi's plight.Identify who's the real enemy is.Dont think as if Bramhins are very advancing and 'Bahujans' are still behind.I live in a humble middle-class Bramhin household and I can see Marathas,Dalits which live in my neighbourhoods,have same values and follow same Marathi culture which I am proud of.The unrest which is being mentioned here shud be ended up by improving economical condition and providing employment to the depressed class.

No one's bitching can reduce our love and respect for Shivaji Maharaj.I am a Maharashtrian,and my idenity ends up there.I am neither a Hindu,nor a Bramhin..nothing else but a Maharashtrian.My Marathi muslim brothers are more lovable than North Indian bramhins.

Jai Maharashtra mahawiki 14:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Bramhinism and Maharashtra dharma...
We need people like you. My best wishes. Previously also People like Prabodhankar Thakre(father of Bal takhre) Nayaymurti Rande, Gopal Ganesh Agaarkar, Swami Dayanand Saraswati (founder of arya samaj), Dr.Surendra kumar Sharma ‘Agayat’ and lots of other Bramhins done a great job to unite our society. Silly thing is if one raise any historical event in which Bramhins of that time act according to their beliefs (which is outdated now) then today’s Bramhins became very nervous and thought some one is blaming today’s Brahmins. In fact today’s Bramhins must criticize those bad acts which done by their forefathers instead of denying it

Question to all of you about Rajyabhishak Shak
I wonder why any editor dint give any importance to calendar started by Shivaji called ‘Rajyabhishak Shak’ Is in the eyes of editors this is a very small thing or achievement of Maratha which one can ignored easily OR people here not mentioning about it just because they are afraid if they mention they must have to put who and how that ‘shak’ was stopped in Maharastra

- Is it true Shivaji started a calender? or shak?

Question about 'Remembering Shivaji'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivaji#Remembering_Shivaji

While reading section remembering Shivaji I got question

‘He is remembered as a just and wise king and his rule is called one of the six golden pages in Indian history’

I want to ask in which six pages Shivaji rule is remembered as golden page. I am asking this because I am confusing this with V D.Sawarkars book ‘saha sonery paan’ and sad to say he dint include Shivaji’s rule as golden page of Indian history. Please clarify is there is any other book or source in which six golden pages are discussed? Or someone who dint read Saha soneri paan by VD savarkar just misguiding people

Vandalising the site
Who is this coward and ignorant fellow adding wrong information about Shivaji? He commented that 'Shivaji was illiterate like Akbar'. --- Do you know anything about Akbar or Shivaji?Please visit Fatehpur Sikri ,then you will understand Akbar.For Shivaji please visit his forts and contemporary remarks of foreign travellers about his knowledege.-- ---Please do not quote like a fool.--- Please do not vandalise the site from unknown site.If you think you are smart,disclose your identity and debate with us about Shivaji.We will teach you what Shivaji was. ---It is a request not to behave like a barabarian. Welcome for dabate kasar59.184.148.206 15:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Vandal's reply: Your reaction to my contribution is pathetic. You sound like a fanatic.You used the terms like Vandal,coward,ignorant,fool and barbarian. You want to teach me also. You lack basic manners.I pity you and your superficial knowledge.- Vandal, who called,correctly, Akbar and Shivaji as "illiterate".

Vandalising the site
Who is this fellow ,hiding his identity? Please discuss openly .Please do not add wrong information like 'Shahaji left behind Jijabai '. Please remember we are net-citizen ,open an account and discuss if you have any sources.Please remember we do not lack basic manners.Did I say anything bad about any person earlier?If you are putting wrong information, we will react. ---Please refrain from this--.Again tell me is it right that Akbar who built a township like Fatehpur Sikri was not having any knoweldge?He was founder of Din-i-Ilahi.Please do not say like this.---Do you know sanskrit tradition of Bhosale house?Do you know that Shivaji named forts as Sindhdurg ,Prachandgad and so on?Do you know his Rajmudra?Do you know Sambhaji's budhbhushanam?--Please do not quote false information ---Yes, we will teach Shivaji to anyone who are on this earth.And why not?Who can tolerate wrong information?Just I called the person who vandalised as a barbarian, then why he felt bad.---please avoid this.And contribute something this site.Do not vandalise .again.Kasar59.184.168.83 14:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Challenge to vandals
Here some vandal without identity is putting wrong view.Perhaps he is a follower of that joker Laines.If you think you are having in depth knoweldge of Shivaji, please debate.Open an authentic account and let us argue point wise either on Akbar or Shivaji.Come on vandal ,come on for an open debate.If I am wrong, I will accept , if you are wrong ,then you accept.At least we should not behave like barbarians i.e.not disclosing the identity and pasting same piece of information without much application of mind.What kind of a sick mentality! Let us argue --have an open mind and courage to fight kasar59.184.168.83 14:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Reply to your nonsensical babble Alok kumar 15:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC) Hey, You are behaving as if Shivaji/Akbar is your property.Let me explain to you some simple facts. Dictionary meaning of the word "illiterate" is one who is not able to read and write. It is universally known that Akbar could never read and write. So, therefore, he was definitely an "illiterate" -Sikri or no Sikri.Building Fatehpur Sikri does not mean that a person is "literate". If you want to know that which scholars call Akbar as "illiterate", I have one suggestion to make to you. Just type in the words "Akbar" and "illiterate", in the Google search bar. You would be enlightened about some of the basic facts about Akbar. Even Jahangir has written about his father: ' "Although he was illiterate, he had sat so much with sages and learned men in discussions that no one could guess that he was illiterate. He comprehended the subtleties of prose and poetry so well that it is impossible to imagine any better." ' Similarly, Shivaji could never get formal education.He also could never,in all probability,  read and write. So, what makes you so sensitive to simple facts.You produce one piece of paper/firman/petition bearing Shivaji's signature/written words.You cannot.I will tell you what is your problem. I can see that you are out here to falsify facts and to mislead. Beacuse you have a fanatic streak. Your mind is utterly closed to simple historical facts.Pigheadedness has its virtues, but you seem to even lack that.Repeating "Sikri" and "Forts" umpteen times would not make Akbar/Shiavji "literate". But, somehow, I have a feeling that I wasting my time and energy on you.You do not deserve it.What you need is good quality education.Go and enroll yourself in a good school/College.


 * -Atten-Alokmumar- Now can you tell me that when this 'literacy 'term was coined? Now please remember Vedas were not written for pretty long time.Do you mean they were illiterate?Shivaji and Akbar have issued hundreds of letters ,is not that sufficient?You are asking me the proof of sign.Can you show me a single sign of any ancient seer of Vedas and many medieval kings.Or their handwriting? Perhaps you are talking of my education.Keep it aside.Talk of relevent topic. Why I am mentioning forts or Sikri, beacause without any map or plan ,is it possible to build it? Please go through sanskrit tradition of Bhosale right from Shahaji to Bhosale of Tanjavar.Then you can understand Shivaji.See Shivaji or Akbar is not my property.But if tomorrow someone start writing anything unfounded , shall I not react? See the contemporay world of those persons.For your kind inforamtion ,Upanishads were reduced in writing during Mughal regime.Does it mean earlier who have not reduced it in writing were illetrate? please react.Welcome for debate. kasar59.184.171.70 08:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Bal Gangadhar Tilak's contribution to the study of Shivaji's History
The Marathas who had established their direct or indirect control over a major part of this sub-continent in the 18th century, were the last rulers of India from whom the British wrested power, as James Grant Duff, the first comprehensive historian of the Marathas, has frankly admitted in his book published in 1826.

Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, the Father of Indian Unrest, belonged to the generation of the 19th century Maharashtra, who had not yet forgotten that they were the rulers of this country in the immediate past. As a patriot of the highest order, he dedicated his entire life for the liberation of India from the clutches of the colonial rule of the British over his motherland. He must have thought of history, as the most suitable and effective method to mobilize public opinion against the tyrannical rule of the British. He thought that the career of Shivaji, who was not yet forgotten by the people, would be the best tool which could be used to attract masses towards the freedom struggle. This led him to indulge in deep research about the Marathas, particularly of Shivaji.

Tilak's equipment as Historian Tilak was not a professional historian. He entered into the field of historical research by sheer accident.

The initial success in the research of the antiquity of the Vedas, encouraged him to do further research and as a sequel to his Orion or Researches into the Antiquity of the Vedas, Tilak produced another original research book, `The Arctic Home' in the Vedas' in 1898, during the period of his eighteen months imprisonment at Yervada in 1897-98. The book was, however, published in 1903, because of his busy schedule after his release from imprisonment. The main theme of his research was - where was the earliest home of the Vedas? With a view to resolve this issue he studied geological researches about the commencement of the post-glacial period, the historic evidence from the Vedic and the allied literature, the characteristics of the polar region, and produced a book entitled `The Arctic Home in the Vedas' having 13 chapters running into 450 pages. He presented a mass of evidence to prove conclusively that before the commencement of the post-glacial epoch, the North Pole regions were inhabited by the Aryan race, and that those people migrated from this place southwards in Asia and Europe not by any `irrestible impulse' but by unwelcome changes in the climatic conditions of their original home.

Plunge in Maratha History However, the peculiar circumstances that were prevailing in the last decades of the 19th century, made him set aside his prime interest in the researches of Ancient India, and plunge into the history of the immediate past of Maharahstra i.e. the Maratha History.

The intellectuals of Maharashtra had started taking interest in their history. Neelakantha Janardhan Kirtane, a junior student of the Deccan College, assailed Grant Duff's History of the Marathas (1826) in his lecture delivered in the Young Men's Association of the College in 1868. He rhetorically pointed out that Grant's History was no more than an account of the military expeditions of the Marathas, rather than the glorious achievements of the Maratha people, of which the people of this region were proud. Rajwade V.K. another historian of the Marathas, after enlisting many deficiencies and mistakes in Grant's History confirmed the assessment of Kirtane and said further that his history was not more than a chronicle. Grant's history was also translated into Marathi by Captain David and Baba Sane and published in 1829-30. Text books on History were prepared on the basis of information contained in these histories which presented a distorted picture of the Maratha Rule with a view to justify their conquest of the country. It was, therefore, necessary to remove the prejudices developed by the non-Marathi speaking people, through reading the historical writings of the British to whom the Marathas were simply plunderers who thrived on looting other Indian powers.

The British rulers, who strove to inculcate the feeling of distrust among the Indians, and prevent the revival of Maratha power, put restrictions on the researches in the Maratha period, which was a hot bed according to them. This restrictive policy of the British denying free access to the archival material preserved in the Government Archives, induced a group of Marathi scholars to launch a popular movement for collecting historical material from the historically old families of the Marathas in the last quarter of the 19th century. Individual historians like Kashinath Narayan Sane (1851-1927) Vasudev Shastri Khare (1858-1924), Vinayak Kashinath Rajwade (1864-1926) and Dattatraya Balwant Parasnis (1870-1926) dug out private archives of Maratha princes, jagirdars, sardars, ministers, and others to counteract the restrictive policy of the colonial rule and present an authentic and real picture of the Maratha power, and remove thereby the misgivings created by the historical writing of the British. Rajwade V.K., for instance founded the Bharat Itihas Samshodhak Mandal at Pune in 1910 on the model of the German historian Leopold Von Ranke (1795-1886), with a view to collect, preserve, and publishing authentic source material and promote scientific research in Indian history. The latter half of the 19th century witnessed a flood of historical writings including various forms of literature like novels, plays, poetry, epics, miscellaneous writings, besides the publication of source material. Thus, the period from Gopal Hari Deshmukh, (Popularly known as Lokhitwadi) (1823-1892) to Lokmanya B.G. Tilak (1856-1920) produced many historical writings, which helped to awaken the interests of masses in their past history.

Immediate Cause However the immediate cause which aroused much interest in Shivaji among the intellectuals, elites and masses of Maharashtra was the references to the dilapidated condition of Shivaji's tomb at Raigad, made by a British visitor James Douglas in his work entitled `A book of Bombay', first published in 1883 and reproduced in his bigger book `Bombay and Western Indian' published from London in 1893. Douglas visited the Raigad fort in 1883 and when he found the cenotaph (Samadhi) of Shivaji in a dilapidated condition, the temple in a wretched plight, and the image therein thrown on the ground, pathetically observed, "Nobody now cares for Shivaji, not one rupee is spent on the annual repairs of the tomb of Shivaji Maharaj who was master of an enormous kingdom."

Douglas further urged the British Government, who had acquired the Kingdom of Shivaji and his successors to look into this matter, in a note in which he said, "The British Government conserves the architectural remains of Tudor and Stuarts. Will not the Bombay Government do as much for the tomb, the temple and the arch of Shivaji? A few crumbs that fall from the archaeological bureau of Western India would suffice to keep in repair memorials of a dashing and most romantic period."

The efforts of James Douglas, however, did not go in vain. In view of these remarks, and the pressure from the public, the British Government, not only declared it as a Monument of Protection but also made some provision for its repairs and maintenance.

The remarks of James Douglas about the neglect of the forts in general and Raigad in particular also created a stir in Maharashtra and both the press and the intellectuals resented the Government policy strongly. Raigad was made the symbol of patriotism, and people were reminded by the Press, as early as 1885, of their negligence of patriotism. Justice M.G. Ranade, the author of the famous classic `Rise of the Maratha Power' organised a public meeting at Hirabag in Pune in 1886 to promote interest in the issue of Shivaji Memorial. It was attended by many important people including the Maratha Sardars, Landlords and even the representative of the Kolhapur State.

Lokmanya and the Shivaji Memorial Movement Lokmanya Tilak being otherwise busy with several other issues including his own research in Vedic literature, perhaps, did not actively participate in the Shivaji Memorial issue. But an article in the Native opinion of V.N. Mandlik (1895) in which the author after personally visiting the Raigad fort concurred with James Douglas's views which were reproduced again in his book Bombay and Western India in 1893 about the deplorable condition of the shrine of Maharaja Shivaji at Raigad. This kindled the imagination of Tilak and in his article in the Kesari of April 23, 1895 he condemned himself and the sardars and jagirdars for letting the samadhi to fall into decay. He wrote sarcastically, but the sardars and the chiefs knew that they are not likely to be benefited by Shivaji as he is dead and gone. This exhortation had its desired effect in attracting people from all strata of society and raising the funds for repairs, maintenance, a chhatri on the tomb, and annual birthday celebration. He made this a issue of national interest and gave to it the shape of a movement which was later on known as the Shivaji Movement which spread in the other parts of the country like Bengal, United Provinces, Assam and some places in the South as a political movement and a part of the India's struggle for freedom.

Tilak organised a public meeting on 30th May 1895 at Hirabag, Pune on the same lines as Justice Ranade had done in 1886. A Smarak Committee of 50 members including Tilak was appointed in this meeting to raise substantial funds for the Shivaji Memorial to give a fitting reply to the Bombay Government which had sanctioned a ridiculous grant of Rs. five per annum for the repairs and maintenance of the tomb of the Maratha Chhatrapati. This appeal touched the public and donations started pouring into the Memorial Fund from two annas of a student to one thousand of Maharaj Sayajirao Gaikwad of Baroda, and within a period of six months an amount to the tune of Rs. Nine thousand was collected.

In view of this unexpected response from the public it was decided that henceforth the birthday of Shivaji be celebrated on the Raigad fort itself, instead of the earlier practice of organising it at Mahad. The Committee also framed provisional rules to regulate celebrations to be held at Raigad from 1896 on a large scale, and published them in the Kesari (3rd March 1896).

Tilak had also planned to direct the attention of the National leaders and make the birthday celebrations of Shivaji, a national festival. He organised a meeting on 29th December 1895 at the Reay Market (now known as Phule Market) which was addressed by national leaders like Surendra Nath Banerjee, President of the Indian National Congress, and Pandit Madan Mohan Malviya.

Tilak had decided to hold the Birthday celebrations at Raigad with a double purpose, firstly to take the people to the fort and let them see for themselves the dilapidated position of the Shivaji Memorial and make them contribute generously to the Fund; and secondly, to declare that what government could not do, the people of Maharashtra will do i.e. the repairs and maintenance by raising funds.

Several objections were raised by the Government while granting permission to hold the function at Raigad. The proposal was rejected first on the ground that Raigad was a reserved forest area, and secondly by objecting to the Marathi term Yatra used in the letter of the organizers which was translated into English by the Oriental Translator to the Government as Fair, which was considered equivalent in English to Market and as per the provisions of the Markets and Fairs Act of 1862 for want of sufficient notice, the request of the organisers was turned down. The organisers substituted the word `Yatra' by `Utsava' and approached the Government again.

Tilak was an elected member of the Legislative Council of the Bombay Government since 1893. He arranged a personal interview with the Governor of Bombay who was holidaying in Mahabaleshwar in April 1896 and obtained the necessary permission from the Governor by promising him that no untoward incidents would take place during the course of the festival. Thus, with the explicit permission of the Government, the celebrations were held on 15th April 1896, as declared, and the National Festival of Shivajayanti was inaugurated with great pomp and splendour. The Kesari of 21st April 1896 reported that over 6000 persons from various places of Maharashtra had gathered on the fort to witness the festival and pay their humble homage to their great national hero. The press in general reported it as `the most glorious and successful function that was ever held at the Raigad fort.' Probably since the coronation of Shivaji which was held over 250 years ago, there had been no function similar to the one held this year.

The Government, however, was not prepared to express any opinion in favour or otherwise on this movement officially called `the Shivaji boom'. To Mr. Nugent, a member of the Council of Governor, `the entire agitation is purely a Brahmin move. The Marathas have held aloof' (25-7-1897).

Direct Contribution to Research The initial success in celebrating the birthday of Shivaji, involved him in direct research in Maratha history, particularly regarding fixing the correct date and place of Shivaji's birth. As regards, the place of birth of Shivaji, all historians unanimously accepted the fort of Shivaneri as the place where Shivaji was born; but opinion was divided about the year and date of his birth -whether it was Vaishakha of Shaka 1549 (1627 AD) or Falgun of Shaka 1551 (1630 AD).

V. K. Rajwade, the doyen among the Maratha historians, in his introduction to the Marathyanchya Itihasachi Sadhane vol. IV published in 1900 discusses the issue of Shivaji's birthdate and on the basis of a chronological note submitted by one Kashinath Krishna Lele of Dhar (Dewas) in 1801 for publication in Kavyeitihas Samgraha periodical of K.N. Sane. This chronology of Dhar mentions that Shivaji was born on Monday, the Vaishakha Shudha Panchami of the Prabhav Samvatsar and the nakshatra (constellation) was Rohini. According to the English calender the birthday falls on 10th April 1627. Grant Duff denies it and says that Shivaji was born in the month May of the Year 1627 which is obviously not correct. He examined the bakhars (chronicles) saptaprakarnatmak Charitra of Shivaji by Malhar Ramrao Chitnis and Shivadigvijya (found in Baroda in 1818, written by an unknown author) suggesting Shaka 1549 Vaishakha Shudha Dwitiya, Thursday as the birthday of Shivaji, and rejected it on the ground that the Rohini nakshatra does not occur on Thursday. Rajwade doubts the motives of the chroniclers in advocating Vaishaka Dwitiya (7 April 1627) instead of Panchami. It was believed in those days that the king must be born on an auspicious day, and as Panchami did not fulfil that, they must have rejected it and conveniently fixed the birthdate on Dwitiya.

Tilak who was anxious to determine the exact birth date of Shivaji, was dragged into this birthday controversy by the above mentioned Introduction of Rajwade. He elaborately examined this issue in his article in the Kesari of 24th April 1900. He read Rajwade's 140 pages long introduction, it seems and appreciated his efforts of collecting all available information and examining it scientifically and carefully and arriving at some conclusions after examining the contradictory views of scholars. He also hoped that Rajwade would continue his research and examine the controversial or doubtful issues and enlighten his readers by supplying proper information.

Tilak was amazed to see that there was lack of consistency in the chronicles and historical documents about the birth date of a person who was born some 275 years ago, and that five to six versions about his birth date differing in the shaka (year) or, samvatsar (era) or tithi (date). On the basis of information that was available for him he could only surmise that most of the sources agree only on the month of birth, i.e. vaishakha but not with the date and other details, and therefore, he says, one can arrive at a proper decision only after critically examining all the issues involved in it.

Tilak critically examined nearly fourteen sources of information, contemporary and of little later period produced between 17th and early 19th century. They included poetic works like Shivaraj Bhushan or Shiva-Bhavani of a contemporary Hindi poet Bhushan of the North India, Shivakaya by Purushottam, bakhars like Sabhasadi, Citnisi, Chitragupta, Rairi, Shivadgvijaya, Shivapratap, Marathi Samrajyachi Choti Bakhar, 91 Qalimi bakhar, Panditrao bakhar, Pratinidhi bakhar, a chronological note from Dhar and horoscope published in Kavyeitihas Samgraha a periodical of K.N. Sane, and a chronology of the Chhatrpatis published in the Bharatvarsha periodical of D.B. Parasnis. This long list of sources alone is enough to show the deep interest taken by Tilak to establish a single point, namely the birth date of Shivaji.

He did not find a single correct date in all these sources which would fulfil all the tests of astronomical calculations. Out of the 14 sources, 9 give 11 different dates, and the remaining five are unanimous on one date but it does not pass the test of astronomy. He thus came to the conclusion that there are four major versions found in these sources and one has to decide the exact date of birth only after examining them. These probable four dates are :

1. Shaka 1549, Prabhav, Vaishakah Shudha 2, Saturday (7th April 1627)

2. Shaka 1549, Prabhav, Vaishakha Shudha 5, Tuesday (10th April 1627)

3. Shaka 1548, Kshaya, Samvatsar, Vaishakh 2, Monday (17th April 1626)

4. Shaka 1548, Kshaya, Vaishakha Shudha 5, Thursday (20th April 1626)

In these four versions, the month Vaishakha is common in all, but there is a difference in the tithi or day. As regards the difference in the year, Tilak rejects the year 1548 on the basis of the references to the date of his death which was shaka 1602, Chaitra Shudha 15, Sunday (4th April 1680) as all sources were unanimous on it, and after calculating the span of the career of Shivaji, he fixed the year 1549 as the year of birth.

He finally accepted a date which was nearer to the bakhar than that of Rajwade and it was Shaka 1549, Pravhav Samvatsar, Vaishakha Shudha Pratipada (nor 2nd or 5th Thursday, Ashwinin nakshatra (not Rohini) equivalent to 6th April 1627. However, he confessed that there was good deal of confusion regarding the date of birth of Shivaji, and appealed to the research scholars to express their views on this issue which he would gladly publish in his newspaper. He requested the organizers of the birthday celebrations to be held on Vaishakha Shudha pratipada from 1900 onwards.

The year and month, thus continued to be followed by the people for a fairly long time till new sources came forward. In the subsequent years two major sources namely the Jedhe Shakavali and the Sanskrit epic Shiva Bharat and epic composed by Kavindra Paramanand the poet laureate of Shivaji. However, when Tilak wrote the article in 1900 non of these sources of information were available to him. His search for getting an authentic source continued and he succeeded in laying his hands on the Jedhe Shakavali which he secured from Daji Saheb Jedhe Deshmukh of Kari (Bhor princely state ) by 1906-7 but could not find enough time to analyse it and so published it as he found it with a brief note, in the journal of the Bharat Itihas Samshodhak Mandal (BISM) in 1916. The other source i.e. Shivabharat came to light only in 1927, which confirmed the date given in the Jedhe Shakavali. A learned research scholar Dattopant Vinayak Apte of the BISM considered afresh in the light of these two new sources and rejected the findings of both Rajwade and Tilak, and declared Shaka 1551, Shukla Samvatsar, Falgun Vadya Tritiya, Friday, nakshtra, hasta, equivalent to 19th February 1630, as the correct date of Shivaji's birth. For a long time historians like G.S. Sardesai, Jadunath Sarkar and others, however did not accept the date advocated by the BISM, and the celebrations continued to be held at two different dates. After the information of Samyukta Maharashtra, the Government appointed a Committee of historians in 1960 to give a finality to this long pending controversy. But the majority decision of the committee submitted in 1966 was not implemented by the Government till February 2000, and now it is officially declared that Falgun Vadya Tritiya of Shaka 1551 (1630 AD) approved by the majority and advocated by the BISM as the authentic date for the celebration of Shiva Jayanti. Thus after nearly hundred years i.e. since Tilak wrote his article in April 1900, the controversy is now resolved. Tilak must get credit for this.

Tilak wrote a number of articles on Shivaji and other historical matters connected with Maharashtra since 1895 practically till the end of his life in 1920. During his long imprisonment at Mandalay (1908-1914) it is discovered from his note book, among other things, like history of Hinduism, Indian nationality, Hindu law, Geeta Rahasya, etc. he had even planned to write a biography of Shivaji. He also jotted down the purpose of his Shiva Charitra. According to him, Shivaji did not establish Maratha power for self but for the people of Maharashtra as a whole; his example was emulated by Peshwa Bajirao I, who by elevating Shinde, Holkar, Gaikwad, to the status of Maratha Sardars tried to show that this Maratha nation was for all. The lesson which Shivaji's life teaches, according to Tilak, was that leaders should not exploit caste, emphasis should be on talent and quality irrespective of the individual's social status.

Indirect Contribution to History Tilak believed that the historical research should be the first duty of any emerging nation. In his article in the Kesari of 9th May 1915, he applauded the selfless efforts of Sane, Khare, Rajwade and Parasnis in promoting historical research in Maharashtra. He appealed to the younger generation that they should emulate the example of these pioneers, who have sown the seeds of historical research in this land. He warned them in these words, "Your ancestry lost the kingdom; if you lose history, your progeny will lose its dharma i.e. duty; Maharashtra will not only be forgotten, but will be destroyed completely; you should try to avoid this calamity."

He gave opportunities to many scholars to publish their researches, or controversial issues, in the Kesari or the Mhratta and thus encouraged public debate. Rajwade, Khare, Parasnis, Bhanu, Paranjape, Jinsiwale and many others responded to this appeal of Lokmanya.

Tilak had to face many objections raised by his enemies against the Shivaji Movement which he had launched on a mass scale since 1895-96. It was considered by some as a movement not for renovation of Shivaji Memorial, but to establish Shivaji as an incarnation of God; an anonymous person called himself as Historicus, in an article in the Times of India 1899 said, "Shivaji's Raj was destroyed by the Brahmins and they are the leaders now to revive his Raj". To Tilak, according to some, Shivaji was not an academic issue but a political one causing Hindu-Muslim riots.

Lokmanya Tilak strongly refuted all these charges levelled against him. To him, Shivaji was not a god, but a superman, appears every now on this earth, as per sermons of Geeta Sambhavami Yuge Yuge, to surmount the difficulties of humanity. Shivaji is remembered for his nation building activities; biographies of great leaders like Shivaji, are the sources of inspiration to the younger generation.

To those who found fault with the brahmin leadership of the movement and doubted that it might be reduced to Ramnavami festival in the long run, Tilak gave fitting reply in his article Shivaji and Brahmin by citing many examples from history, and charged the critics that their main purpose in calling it a brahmin movement was to create a rift between the Brahmins and the non-Brahmans of Maharashtra.

To the charge that the two festivals namely the Ganesh (1893) and Shivaji (1896) caused Hindu-Muslim riots of 1893, 1894, 1896 in Maharashtra, Tilak gave a strong reply in his article in the Mhratta of June 24, 1906. Shivaji he declared, was not an enemy of the Muslims. Had there been a Muslim in his place under those circumstances, he too would have been honoured. Who was he? Where was he born? are minor issues. One who inspires is great. We are not against a festival being started in favour of Akbar or any other Hero from old Indian History....It is a sheer misrepresentation to suppose that the worship of Shivaji includes invocation to fight either with the Mohamedans or with the Government.

In support of the Shivaji festival, Tilak argued that man had become an animal, and Shivaji made him a human being with a desire to be free, and realize that swarajya was his fundamental right. He, therefore, believed that the purpose of Shivaji festival was promotion of patriotism and nationalism among the people of this country.

Once, a young historian, D.V. Apte, to whom a reference has been made earlier, asked Tilak, "My friends say that all research in History is useless and unnecessary; one would hardly get anything out of it, it is a sheer waste of time, and a great headache, so give it up and do something concrete."

Lokmanya replied, "Listen to your friends and do what you want to do with all might and determination. Research cannot be done by all, it is a privilege of the chosen few. It depends on one's liking and aptitude. Research should be done for the sake of research only. One cannot show the tangible results of historical research immediately. But research is such a thing which should not be avoided by one who is interested in it. Every activity should not be motivated by material gain. Man works both for his maintenance as well as for satisfying his urge for pure knowledge. It depends on the nature and character of man, to which he should give priority. One can hardly explain to a common man the ecstasy one gets through research resulting in the advancement of knowledge."

This summarizes Tilak's views on historical research. For want of time Lokmanya Tilak could not pay much attention to historical research but he knew the relevance of history, and how to reconcile historical research for political purposes, as well as for advancement of knowledge, and therefore, his contribution to historical research deserves attention of scholars and political leaders of modern times.


 * This is primarily about Tilak, and belongs in an article about him, or a specialised article about his contributions to historiography. -- Danny Yee 11:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The inforamtion is quite good .But better to place at appropriate place.

kasar59.184.183.151 13:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is good stuff. I will create an article called "Bal Gangadhar Tilak and Historiography". Two more titles come to my mind - "Bal Gangadhar Tilak's contribution to Historiography" and "Lokmanya Tilak and Historiography". Please tell me which title is the most suitable. I am creating the first one. If you want we can redirect the other topic headings to the article I created. Of course, your comments are welcome.


 * -- N R S(talk) 10:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Bhosale&Jadhav
Someone is adding wrong information that Jadhavas and Bhosales were adverseries.For their kind inforamtion the famous general Dhanaji Jadhav who defeated Mughals after Shivaji and whose father died in the battle of Pavankhind alongwith Bajiprabhu belongs to Jadhavas only.When Lakhuji was murdered in Nizamshahi court,Shahaji tried to take revenge but was subdued.Please do not quote wrong things. kasar59.184.183.151 13:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Coronation
Someone is bent upon adding a line' some Brahmins opposed coronation".What is the fun in this kind of later day projection?Shivaji's own danpatra speaks as he belonging to Kaushik gotras.For those who are unnecessary creating caste controversy ,I do not want to offend anyone;but then such people needs to be told the truth. ---Prior to Shivaji,Hindus were residing in the country ruled by 'Mlecchas' by their own account.For a number of years they were paying 'Jiziya'.Hence as per Ancient Dharmashastras you are not even porper Hindus ,forget upper or lower caste division! So please do not quote those sundry references manufactured by late historians.Please avoid this.--Kasar59.184.179.46 07:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Divide and rule!
Dear Friends, The vandalists who are writing wrong things about Shivaji Maharaj should be blocked.I also request all to forgive them as it is not the mistake of these vandalists but of their illiterate parents (who gave birth to them at the first place) who failed to give them lessons in culture and mannerisms.Answering their questions is like glorifying barking dogs.

And to add,those vandalists writing about 'so-called Bramhin opposition to Maharaj's coronation' is a farce.They just want to divide us.No sane Maharashtrian,let alone Bramhins, will write or speak such false things.The vandal seems to belong to 'online wing' of SIMI!Coronation of Shivaji Maharaj is that golden moment of our history when 'Hindvi Swaraj' and 'Maharashtradharma' was established.Dont fall prey to these fools who just want create a havoc here. If these vandals cross the limit,approach admins.I would,however, like to meet them in person to 'advice' them against writing or saying things against Shivaji Maharaj.

Jai Shivaji Jai Bhavani mahawiki 19:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Ramdas
Sambhaji Brigade fanatics, do NOT remove Ramdas Swami's mention from the article. I have observed again and again someone is removing Ramdas's name. Don't do it again.

-- N R Stalk 04:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Ramdas
Please understand that Ramdas was a great saint.Some fool persons are trying to project him as spy of Mughals!What is the fun in this?Is not an insult to Ramdas who spent his life for unity of Maratha(Maratha tituka melawa)?Please do not fall trap to such writings created by some selffish persons.Same is true regarding coronation.Avoid trap of these people.They do not know much about Shivaji neither they are bothered about prserving his heritage.They just want to cash for political reasons.kasar59.184.145.77 18:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Question to kasar about Ramdas
You Wrote:-“Please understand that Ramdas was a great saint.Some fool persons are trying to project him as spy of Mughals!What is the fun in this?Is not an insult to Ramdas who spent his life for unity of Maratha(Maratha tituka melawa)?Please do not fall trap to such writings created by some selffish persons.Same is true regarding coronation.Avoid trap of these people.They do not know much about Shivaji neither they are bothered about prserving his heritage.They just want to cash for political reasons.kasar59.184.145.77 18:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC”

Mr. Kasar its funny you dint mention who is that man who projected ramdas as a spy of moughal. He was MM Deshmukh from nagpur Dhanvate colloage He put this info in his book called ‘Madhyaugin Bharatacha Ittihaas’ published in 1968 Intresting thing is Maharastra government banned that book on 17th July 1969 but court make a decision in favor of book and writer on 9th September 1970. Hence there is no way you can say this information’s are baseless or spread by those who don’t know history. You may have different view as you said about James lain

''You wrote(priviouse discussion):- “James Laine is not a child ,he is oversmart, and more politician than a historian.Suppose people around him cracked a joke ,but then why he wrote ?Whether anyone has forced on him.He is first class nonsense fellow,knowing well what will happen, he has written.Why to blame on any community?Laines is an idiot,that does not make all Americans idiots?”

And I replied

Its strange you dint object people who cracked joke (Very Insulting and character assassinating joke about Rastramata jijau) about Jijamata even they are well known historians then also they crack such joke and you dint blame them nor you tried to find out their intention but your blaming lane WOW its shows mentality and only mentality  ''

So to you, may it’s easy to take extremely disrespectful jokes on Jijau but maratha who loved and adored Jijau and Shivaji its not bearable.

Don’t misguide people by saying only non-historians or people who have less knowledge about Shivaji project ramdas as spy.

Intresting thing is Purandare like people who always portrayed Ramdas as a guru of Shivaji openly admitted now days it’s false.

WAKE UP

Previously Acharya Atre debate with Prof. MM Deshmukh on the same issue but use references from novel Shriman Yogi hence he lost debate if you want to discuss or debate with MM Deshmukh make a phone call to him (0732) 238238 or his address is Prof. MM Deshmukh ‘Satkriti’ 69 A kotwaal nagar (pratap nagar) nagpur Maharastra

Lokmanya Tilak
I want to ask some questions to whom who knowledgeable about Lokmanya Tilak 1. Who rediscover Shivaji’s Samadhi on Raigad fort mahatma Jotirao Phule or lokmanya Tilak

2. Who started Shivjayaanti (birth anniversary of Shivaji) first lokmanya tilak or Mahatma Jotirao Phule

3. What was lokmanya’s view about Shahu Maharaj’s stand on famous Vedokt Prakaran 4. Is lokmanya Tilak ever said

“Teli tambodyana councilat jawun kai tel kadhac aahe ki shet nagaraycha aahe”

(Meaning:- Why teli’s and tambolis wanted to enter in council? Is they wanted to do farming or making oil there)

Ramdas
Thanks a lot for questions regarding Ramdas.I respect to everyone .But can any one forget Ramdas's famous quotes about Shivaji"Janata Raja,Shrimant Yogi etc."Please do not write false things about such yogi.One should not be biased .kasar59.184.168.125 17:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

To Kasar about Ramdas
Kasar wrote:- Thanks a lot for questions regarding Ramdas.I respect to everyone .But can any one forget Ramdas's famous quotes about Shivaji"Janata Raja,Shrimant Yogi etc."Please do not write false things about such yogi.One should not be biased .kasar

Kasar he wrote “Nischayacha mahameru Bahutjanancha aadharu Janta Raja” for Shivaji in a letter dated 03 / 04 / 1672 before his rajyabhishak but at that time Shivaji was already a famouse and like a king so its obivious that bhikshu or Gosavi like Ramdas make such words to him infact Shivaji was famouse for his good character, confidence and love /care for his people so Ramdas just make this info in a great form of shloka. BUT he was critisize by various people because he wrote something like this too '''|| Rajya nele malice kshetri || || gurutatv nele kupatri || || aapan arantri na tarantri kahich nahi || Das bodh 14-7-'''Meaning is, kingdom is captured by mugals or Kshatriya and low casts became Gurus we (Bramhins) dosnt have this or that '''|| deva bramhin satta kari|| || to yek murkh|| dasboth-2-1-68''' –meaning, whoever is punishing (by law) bramhin is biggest fool '''|| jari bramhin mudh mati tari to jag dvand || dasbodh 5'''-meaning is, even if Bramhin is biggest fool then also he is master or guru of world

and some people portrayed him as Shivaji’s guru. How could be he? He wrote bias things, he praise his own cast a lot, on the other hand Shivaji dint judge people by cast or religion but only by merits, isnt it shame to portrayed Ramdas like bias man as guru of Shivaji like Wise Janata Raja

You wrote- Please do not write false things about such yogi.One should not be biased

Kasar how could be a yogi made such bias shloks and lift his own cast? Or even a Yogi is also having biase mentality? As per false things are concern then why V K Rajwade, Purandare, Ninad Bedekar like people portrate Ramdas as Guru of Shivaji? Isnt this is false? Now a days Purandare and Bedekar refuse to deabate challenge about Shivaji and Ramdas meeting or any type of relationship then the question must be raised why they portrated such FALSE things. WHY in janata raja play ‘they’ still show Ramdas as guru of Shivaji and why they show Set of Shaniwar wada as Shivaji’s palace As per historical evedance are concern Ramdas himself never mention Shivaji as his disiple directly or indirectly nor Shivaji mentioned such thing even in slightist. Nor any bakhar which is written when Shivaji was alive mention any metting or any such relation of them, nor Bakhar and any book from 17 centurey like Sabhasad bakhar, 91 kalmi bakhar, Swanubhav Dinkar, Shivbharat, Jedhe Shakawali, etc ever mention any meeting or any such relation of Guru Shishya. Nor Shivaji ever use slogen ‘Jai Jai Raghuveer Samartha’ but his slogen was Har Har Mahadev (which is ‘shaiv’ slogen)

Even in a one refrence where Shivaji ordered

“Ramdas gosavi aani deva karita je bramhan thethe yeun rahatat tayancha paramarsh ghyavya” in a letter dated 09 /08 / 1676 to Dattoji pant and Ganesh Gojadau

Means he dint even put ‘Shri’ for Ramdas nor show any special respect but treated him as lokal bhikshu.

So false things are presented by so-called book writers and scholars

What I wrote dosnt mean I support the Ramdas as spy theory which is firstly raised by NR Fatak in 1929 But I am only saying if some one is portrating low mentality (Ramdas) as guru of Great persnality like Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj then its obvious that Ramdas would be critisized by many. Hope you understand

For Kasar
Kasar, where are you ? Please reply me on my talk page. How can I contact you ? Please reply me. It's urgent. Also tell me where should I reply you back.

-  Arya   Raj ya  महाराष्ट्र  14:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyone here who has a fair knowledge of 'Yadava' dynasty plz contact me.Its urgent!Mahawiki 14:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

WHY KASAR WHY?
You wrote:-Please do not make an issue of Saint Ramdas. Dbkasar

I wonder why you wont denied or condemned non-historical lie Ramdas as guru of Shivaji.WHY?

I can see this too that you make extra focuse on ‘Indrarajyabhishake’ but dint even tried to mention importance of second ‘shaiv’ rajyabhishake by Nischalpuri. WHY?

You blame Lain as politician and critisize him for why he wrote that joke if someone crack it in front of him but you never condemned those who cracked such joke in front of him. WHY?

WHY KASAR WHY?

Chatrapati= Chief,head, leader or King of Kshatriyas
Chatrapati= Chief of Kstriyas

I edited this cause holder of umbrella is just mispronunciation actually the word CH-ATRA is ceiling or umbrella but in the case of Chatrapati the actual word was Kshtra+Pati. Kshatra (land, country) from which Kshtriya (solders who protect land or country) arrived so in brief who protect land or kshetra or who is the master of Kshetra (land, country) called Kshatriya and the master or leader of Kshatriyas is Kshtra+Pati

Congratulations for this article
I would like to thank the contributors on this article on Shivaji. It is extremely balanced, and the section "Shivaji and religion" describes quite well the brave and generous personnality of Shivaji. I am a muslim, and I can feel a great admiration for Shivaji reading this article, which could lower the side effects on the recent recuperation of Shivaji through political matters in India. Just one thing: I think that Saint Ramdas was Shivaji's spiritual advisor no ? I read that one day in the introduction of Ramdas' Dasbodh. This should be easy to verify. Thanks again for this article. AlexOriens 11:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, obviously, Shivaji was great. Just because a few right-wing parties use his name for "communalism" doesn't lower the Great King's image. Sometimes, few of the rightwingers and the ignorant secularists wrongly attribute "Hindu Communalism" to our great King, which is nothing short of an insult. The word "Hindavi Swaraj" has been falsely made to look as if it means "Nation Only For Hindus", while in reality, Shivaji's aim to make "Hindavi Swaraj" was a "Nation Ruled By Indigenious People". Note the difference between "Hindu" and "Hindavi". Of course, it is not that well-known that Shivaji had great respect for past Mughal Emperor Akbar, whom he used to praise for his pluralism. Of course, Shivaji's three main spiritual teachers were "Ramdas Swami", "Sant Tukaram" and "Shaikh Yakub of Konkan" (ref. from Vishwas Patil's Sambhaji).


 * But I don't know why some people are hellbent on removing Ramdas Swami's mention, just because he was belonged to Brahmin caste. It just doesn't make any sense. The reference to Ramdas should be inserted in again.


 * -- N R S | T/M\B 14:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this. I visited Mumbai some years ago, and I took the time to buy the english translation of Saint Ramdas' Dasbodh. It is the translation made by Mr. W. G. Tambwekar, and the book is published by publishers: Sri Samarth Ramdas Swami Krupa Trust, Vile Parle (E), Mumbai. Year of publication: 1995. In the introduction, they give a profile of Shri Samarth Ramdas Swami and they say the following:
 * He placed before people, the ideal of Lord Shriram (...) During the same period, by the Grace of God, great king Shivaji was also running in Maharashtra. He had accepted guidance of Samarth Ramdas, or spiritual elevation as well as matters of state administration. This pair Guru and disciple had once again brought alive the memories of Lord Shri Krishna and Arjun for establishement of truth and right just order. (introduction page D).
 * I don't know if this can help...
 * All the best. AlexOriens 21:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations for this article
I would like to thank the contributors on this article on Shivaji. It is extremely balanced, and the section "Shivaji and religion" describes quite well the brave and generous personnality of Shivaji. I am a muslim, and I can feel a great admiration for Shivaji reading this article, which could lower the side effects on the recent recuperation of Shivaji through political matters in India. Just one thing: I think that Saint Ramdas was Shivaji's spiritual advisor no ? I read that one day in the introduction of Ramdas' Dasbodh. This should be easy to verify. Thanks again for this article. AlexOriens 11:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My friend I wolud like to say that Shivaji was not against any particular religion but he did respect all religions. Some people carefully make his image as anti muslim because he fought with muslim rulars but they ignored the fact that he also fought with maratha sardars like Chandrarao More he also fought with traditionalist Bramhins. Actually he appointed Muslims on the important post of swarajya. And he also had many muslim in his army (as you read in main article) Shivaji was a great man who respect and appreciate good people from every religons, religion is not much important to him but the the heart of man. As per Ramdasis concern it’s a false information some so called historians spread up, now a day all of them admitting that yes it’s a false info if you read some info about Ramdas and shivaji posted in the same page you will know.

Thanks for contrubuting its seems Shivaji is getting new fame in which he will be hero of every justic loveing person and not only by our Maratha comunity


 * Thank you for your message. I am not learned enough in Indian history to post anything related to Shivaji in the main article. But about Saint Ramdas, I put above a reference that could help. I think that it is important to acknowledge the truth in this domain. Bye and thanks. AlexOriens 10:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * -No probs mate. I am glad that being a Muslim too you appreciate Shivaji. As per Ramdas is concern it’s a great historical lie spread up which now a days no one is ready to accept.

Family information
Information about Shivaji's family seems convoluted and mostly irrelevant. I'm going to clean up the grammar, and if no one objects by tomorrow morning, going to delete all that business about his great-grandfather. MlleDiderot 02:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Mlle Diderot

ignorant about coronation
Some one has added 'that while some brahmins ahve opposed his coronation not being of noble berth or varna. --It is really pathetic to note such political statement about shivaji.Can this person tell the names of such brahmins on some sound proof.Secondly Shivaji belong to Kaushik gotra as per hos own danapatra and 96 roayl clans.--Thirdly as per Dharmasahstra if chaturvarna sytem can not exist under mleccha rule!So as such there was no varna system at all ,forget to oppose.--please react with proof or avoid this street type writing. dbkasar59.184.165.49 15:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Can this person tell the names of such brahmins
Kasar asked:-Can this person tell the names of such brahmins Answer:- Moropant Pingle

And if Bramhins are not against Shivaji Maharaj's coronation then what is the meaning of following

RAMDAS-Das bodh 14-7
 * Rajya nele malice kshetri || || gurutatv nele kupatri || || aapan arantri na tarantri kahich nahi ||

Its quite interesting Kasar that you defend every thing which went against Bramhins

1.	You are defending Dadoji Konddev as Shivaji’s Guru. 2.	You are defending Krishnaji Bhaskar Kulkarni by denying the fact that he was vakil or bodyguard of Afjalkhan and he attacked Shivaji hence Shivaji  killed him 3.	You defend Bhandarkar institute and Shrikant Bhaulkar who cracks insulting joke about Rajmata Jijau but you condemned Mr James Lain for why he wrote such joke if some one crack it in front of him(You never ever condemned those who crack such joke )

I think its people like you who degrade the image of Bramhins by portrating them as always good people and by denying every evil action of them, means you are not ready to accept that Bramhins can do anything wrong.

As per you want proofs then why didn’t you enter in a open debate about above issues

'''NEWS:- “debate by Maratha Vikas Parishad at Neharu Memorial Hall, Pune on 25th April 2006.

It is the historical event of recent time that delegate of those who portray RAMDAS and KONDEV as Shivaji's Guru,the pioneer of this issue Purandare, Bedekar initially agreed to debate on Dadu Kondadeo and Chatrapati Shivaji Raje's guide (Guru) issue,howeverlater refused to join the organised debate.

At this event Dr. Jaisinghrao Pawar, Dr. Vasantarao More and Hari Narke read their paper and erased every such claims of those who always portray KONDDEV and RAMDAS as Guru of 'Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj' with all available evidence, Baba Purandare and Ninad Bedekar were absent to put forth their defence. Justice B.G.Kolase-Patil concluded with their impression, as the Bhat and Co. don't accept democratic way to debate, their motive behind their claim is nothing but to maintain dominancy of Bhat Co. over Bahujan.”'''

If you are ready we can arrange same debate AGAIN for you Mr. Kasar,

ready for debate
Please note that I am not saying in totality that brahmins can not do anything wrong.But when someone talk wrong things out of prejudice ,we must defend.Ultimately Shivaji strove for unity of all sections of the society .What is the fun in exploiting his name for own agenda? Tell me Mr Purandare has spent his entire life in propagation of Shivaji's ideals.Now some persons are shouting against him for the reason he happens to be brahmin I do not understand this mentality.No one has got a 'patent' of Shivaji.Shivaji was a real king and was having a heart of king.He did not measure people as per their caste or religion.That is why all sorts of faith fought under his banner may be brahmins, muslims, marathas, Bhandaris and all kind of trbes.Is not a fact?--Some leaders who want to gain politically are exploiting his name ,rather than any love for shivaji.Please do not fall into the trap of these people.---I am not interested in any debate , but if you want ,YES,LET US DEBATE AT THE PLACE YOU DECIDE--DBKASAR203.153.40.49 09:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)