Talk:Shoegaze/Archive 1

Untitled
Why isn't Sonic Youth mentioned?! They were one of the biggest of this kind of atmospheric guitar stuff to break into the mainstream briefly. Much of their music is very close to MBV and a "harder" Lush.

- Strange, when I searched for "shoegazing" using Wikipedia search this article (or any results for that matter) didn't turn up. Jareha 16:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Must've been a temporary glitch as it's working fine now. So, nevermind me. Jareha 16:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Opinion
Er, I know some people who'd argue some Dinosaur Jr. songs were shoegazer. But then that's the problem with labels. They are often misapplied and often don't capture the essence of music. That said, this is an encyclopedia article so the best we can do is cite examples of bands that were tarred with this brush (that means find and link or cite the articles) and avoid subjectivity like this:

"The genre label was quite often misapplied. Key bands such as Ride, Chapterhouse and Slowdive emerged from the Thames Valley and as such Swervedriver found themselves labelled shoegazers on account of their own (coincidental) Thames Valley origins - despite their more pronounced Hüsker Dü-meets-Stooges stylings."

This is rock criticism or history and doesn't belong here. If someone called Dino Jr. shoegazers that should be cited and included. 202.82.171.186 (talk) 08:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems, at least to me, that the first paragraph under "Definitions" contradicts and undermines the rest of the article. It also sounds rather biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.102.237.247 (talk) 06:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

please, please everyone, My Bloody Valentine MUST be included!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.149.84 (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Dinosaur first two lps reference
I don't think that the first Dinosaur album is a good reference to early Boo Radleys. It's more of hardcore punk influenced indie-rock record than than what came after.

The two lps that followed that self titled debut - You're Living All Over Me and Bug - are better pointers.

Dinosaur Jr. is in no way related to shogazer. I see absolutely no connection. We might as well say Sonic Youth gave birth to shoegazer. -Some guy 12:59 PM

Agreed, Dinosaur Jr. is not related to shoegazing.

Dinossaur JR were a significant part in the development of the sound and the scene because of their tour with MBV, either you like it or not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.77.30 (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Shoegaze vs. shoegazing
I believe the proper genre term is "shoegaze", not "shoegazing".WesleyDodds 04:26, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * the google test seems to confirm otherwise --MilkMiruku 15:25, September 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * The "google test" is irrelevent here. It doesn't take into account context. A band or song could be described as "shoegazing" much in the same way I could call a rock song "rocking", but that doesn't change the name of the genre to "rocking and rolling". Your argument is short-sighted and silly. - Dustin.


 * fair enough, but tbh for a long time i thought it was refered to as 'shoegazer', and that gets almost as many hits as 'shoegaze', so no-one should move anything until we get multiple quotes to back up any change up :) --MilkMiruku 03:41, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Shoegaze should be the correct term. Tonearm 05:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)Tonearm

shoegaze is how everyone i know has always known it

I've always known the genre to be called shoegaze, and allmusic calls it that. Shoegazing is what the performers did, which inspired the name. As Dustin said, rocking -> rock, so shoegazing -> shoegaze. I think allmusic is a pretty reputable source? --Casiotone 20:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's one answer here - but for what it's worth - it's always been shoegazing for me - as someone who was a big fan at the time and in the UK. I'll dig through old cuttings to see what the UK music press used most - also if you search nme.com now you'll see more hits for 'shoegazing' than 'shoegaze' (by an order of magnitude). NickW 13:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * jumping in here with nothing to back me up but experience, I know it as "shoegazer" as well. Source-hunting commences now. Cantara 23:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think shoegaze and shoegazer are common than shoegazing, even if the NME uses it more. WesleyDodds 03:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * More common where? I'm starting to get the impression that 'shoegaze' is the US equivalent of the UK 'shoegazing'. NickW 08:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I'm surprised the NME's influence reached as far as the States. I thought Shoegazing was only really for people south of Oxford. In Manchester we we're still riding off the tailends of the indie-dance baggy scene. DJ HEAVEN 11:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I've also just looked on google again and it seems that shoegaze is actually twice as popular as shoegazing. --Casiotonetalk 12:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've found some old Slowdive and Chapterhouse cuttings - reviews of their early singles, gigs etc.. but no mention of shoegazing yet. As for Google etc.. shouldn't we be concerned to find what the original term was? NickW 12:46, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone figured this out yet? WesleyDodds 05:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Still working on it - I think we need to see the original music press coverage - for some reason the cuttings I've dug out at home so far pre-date the introduction of the shoegazing label. I'll carry on looking... NickW 09:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never heard it called shoegazing before. It should be changed to shoegaze. The current name makes Wikipedia look lame and behind the times. Maluka 07:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree. Your reasoning is incorrect. The genre was first described in the early nineties so how can it be anything other than behind the times? As for 'shoegazing' being lame - maybe you should try to address some of the above points before resorting to name calling. NickW 21:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Nick, Nick, Nick! Shoegazing IS LAME. I mentioned this on a music forum and people laughed hard at it being called Shoegazing. Get with the times, ok? Maluka 07:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Because it's highly possible most people refer to it as "shoegaze" these days. I know I always see "shoegaze" or "shoegazer" instead of "shoegazing".  WesleyDodds 04:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * On the NME website search, the number of results for shoegazing are tenfold that of shoegaze. The google searches on the site for shoegazing and shoegaze give the same thing (and half the results for 'shoegaze' are the boards). Although the general google searches give about a million for shoegaze and half that for shoegazing, so it would seem most people today use the term shoegaze, but NME are still using shoegazing. I personally don't mind either of the terms being used for the article, but from the results it should probably be shoegaze. Either way, I think we should definitely include information about the other term being used as well in the article. --Casiotonetalk 16:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There are a number of issues here - most importantly - what the original term was, and what the article should be called. The original term was shoegazing (like it or not e.g. see NME 8 June 1991 - ). Perhaps that has been supplanted by 'shoegaze'. I don't know - I can only comment as a fan of shoegazing at the time. I admit to not having followed any offshoots or derivatives of the original scene... My preference for the article title is shoegazing - because it is essentially the senior variant term / synonym etc.. Other people may prefer shoegaze if they feel it reflects more common useage at present. How you substantiate the latter I don't know - no-one has so far. P.S. Being 'Lame' has no bearing on article titles in an encyclopedia. NickW 17:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * At this point in time I think it's best we call the article "shoegaze". It's nice having a reference for what it was originally called, but the naming conventions of Wikipedia correspond to what people will most likely recognize in order to aid searching.  From my experience, everyone I know knows it as shoegaze and even Allmusic lists the genre under shoegaze.  If we do rename the article, the first sentence should probably read Shoegaze (originally called "shoegazing" and sometimes called "shoegazer") is . . . WesleyDodds 05:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree - the discussion above shows both terms are still in popular use. I'm sure we all have our own experience of what the genre is referred to as - all equally limited by our respective geographic locations (and age no doubt)... As for searching on Wikipedia - that's easily solved by adding a redirect for 'shoegaze'. NickW 08:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the discussion has shown everyone else either doesn't use the phrase or is unfamiliar with it. An earlier point was brought up that NME seems to be the only entity that largely refers to it as "shoegazing".  Maybe they have a trademark or something.  WesleyDodds 09:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Never heard of it called "shoegaze" music, however "Shoegazing" was (somehwta sarcasticly) referred in the NME quite a lot (i believe it's one of their genre labels like Urchin Rock etc) just to group those indie band that gave the impression on stage that they were looking at their feet DJ HEAVEN 11:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * "Shoegazing" gets my vote as it's the only thing I've ever heard it called. While the NME made the term popular it was apparently first coined in a review of a Moose gig (supporting Lush) to describe the nervous appearance of the newly formed support band.  I think this review appeared in 'Sounds'.--Mike2121212 15:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "Shoegaze" gets my vote. It makes sense to me to compare it to rock, in which rock/shoegaze is the name of the genre; a rocker/shoegazer is one who performs or listens to the music; and rocking/shoegazing is what one does while listening or performing. I would never ever say "I listen to shoegazing." --EndlessVince 03:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "Shoegazer" is the term I remember from back in the day in Ireland. I was, I'll admit, a relative late-comer to the scene (got into Swervedriver and Curve in '93 first and worked backwards to the 4AD scene). Donnacha 22:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "Shoegaze" is the term I have always known it as since 1991 when Loveless came out. The band I managed, All Natural Lemon & Lime Flavors, played in the local NY/Philly "shoegaze" scene, where all bands here referred to it as such from about 1992 through 1998.  I agree this could be a case of the States' term vs. the Brit term. limesparks 19:24, 03 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Last.fm says shoegaze too, look: http://www.last.fm/tag/Shoegazing // http://www.last.fm/tag/Shoegaze  (ErikHK 21:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC))


 * I read the NME weekly and Melody Maker occasionally through the late 80's & early 90's. 'Shoegazing' and 'Shoegazer(s)' I recall. I've don't think I've ever seen 'Shoegaze' until today. Of the two magazines I think Melody Maker writers were generally more positive towards the music, NME writers tended to be more dismissive, hence the fairly negative ('lame' even) name. --Breezecatcher 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Shoegaze = genre, Shoegazing = action. Shoegazer would even work, but Shoegazing is just plain crass. 74.129.108.127 03:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Shoegaze" is the only term I've ever heard to describe the genre (until now) as a fan of the music for the past fifteen years. As others have said I think this must be a US/Brit distinction.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.27.52 (talk) 07:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

To sum it up:

Shoegaze is the most used term to date according to the Google test, the general Google search, Allmusicand the NME website search.

Although the grammar has not been firmly established, Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English defines Shoegaze as a verb and Shoegazing as a noun. I do not know how this correlates with the naming of a genre but it does not seem to be conclusive [based on dictionary.com findings].

According to NickW the original term was Shoegazing. The source, however, mentions the style as "shoe gazing" among others ("murmuring" and "I post-rave comedown") and not Shoegazing as spelled with one word. The source is indirect and referrers to the band Slowdive's blog who presumably duplicated the NME article released the 8'th of June, 1991.

Since there only is references suggesting shoegazing as proposed by NickW I suggest we use the term Shoegazing until firm evidence shows otherwise. (Cookey11 16:27, 26 July 2008) More information regarding the naming of the genre can be found at Shoegazing vs Shoegaze I will however add "also popular known as Shoegaze" to the article. Hope that is okay :-)

Will someone rename this article Shoegaze because the ing is really pointless people don't say "Hey have you heard of this shoegazing band" they say "Hey have you heard of this shoegaze band" use er to describe the musicians not ing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.186.64.155 (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The most recent and complete source, Patrick Sisson's oral history in the December 2008 XLR8R, says "shoegaze" -- not "shoegazing." The article should definitely be moved. Aryder779 (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Sisson's article ain't all that.  There's some good quotes from those involved (Miki Berenyi of Lush uses "shoegazing" as the name of the genre in her quotes), but Sisson oversimplifies some basic things, like the difference between shoegazing and The Scene That Celebrates Itself -- Foetusized (talk) 23:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The NME Slowdive article can now be found here.
 * I have a scan from Melody Maker in October the same year: file:curve-melody-maker-1991-10-26.jpg
 * Dyaimz (talk) 00:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's Shoegaze not Shoegazing. Sources: Rate Your Music; Last FM; allmusic; shoegaze.co.uk -- J u P it E er  00:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Jupiter, for reminding us once again that Americans like shoegaze. (Don't be fooled by shoegaze.co.uk; it's registered to a Texan!) Cookey11 raised 2 points about NickW's source. 1) Shoe-gazing rather than shoegazing. 2)The source is indirect.
 * I have now remedied that. The usage in the Melody Maker article clearly refers to shoegazing as a genre rather than simply the actions of a shoegazer. Dyaimz (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I am from the UK and had never heard the genre referred to as Shoegazing before I saw it on wikipedia.
 * UK sources: British shoegaze compilation on Amazon; Review on ilikemusic.co.uk -- J u P it E er  16:10, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In which case you almost certainly were not going to see these bands, buying their records, and reading about them in the music press back in the early 1990s.--Michig (talk) 16:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My thoughts, exactly. (Probably before he was born!) Check out this 1992-09-12 Melody Maker cover Whatever Happened to Shoegazing? Dyaimz (talk) 22:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Never heard it called Shoegazing outside Wikipedia either, neither in conversation with brits nor in communication with americans or dutchmen. While I trust these sources that it was mainly known as Shoegazing in the early 90s in Britain, it seems to be called Shoegaze now globally and to at least a significant part of the Britons nowadays. This article isn't supposed to seem like it were written in Britain in the 90s, it's supposed to be up-to-date and internationally oriented. I think we should move the article to Shoegaze.Cayafas (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just in case anyone thinks I'm stuck in the past, here's an interview with Miki Berenyi from Under the Radar dated 2007-10-01, which only uses shoegazing. Dyaimz (talk) 16:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

My two pence: I feel "shoegaze" should be the title of the article. I think that is how more commonly the 'scene' is referred to than 'shoegazing'.Roland Sparkes (talk) 15:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC) The article should be called "shoegaze." I had never heard it called "shoegazing" before I read this article, and yes, that includes Europeans and other non-Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.34.216 (talk) 04:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 'shoegazing' in the early, latterly 'shoegaze'. Its a UK / US thing, similar to the difference in plural (UK) or singular (US) when describing groups of people who play together in bands. Its all covered above. Summary: There is no getting through to Yanks. Ceoil  22:12, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Results for shoegaze on Allmusic, NME, Pitchfork, SPIN, last.fm, The New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, Guardian VS results for shoegazing on Allmusic, NME, Pitchfork, SPIN, last.fm, The New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, Guardian. As you can see they ALL prefer shoegaze over shoegazing (except for BBC, 657 vs 787). Not to mention the general Google search for shoegaze VS the general Google search for shoegazing which we know can't be used as a source but ar least gives as a reference on which of the two in more common. Also as someone pointed out above the genre is called shoegaze both on last.fm and Allmusic. I understand that shoegazing was the original term used by NME, Melody Maker and companions around the nineties and it should be mentioned in the article but please face it, nowadays shoegazing is used considerably less and mostly by British speakers. We have to use the word which is the most used nowadays and worldwide. It seems to me that some of you are kind of reducing the whole thing to a silly US vs UK thing. Please note that I'm Italian and on Italian music press I always found shoegaze, as little as it can mean. --79.37.74.170 (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

mistake
the smiths album strangeways here we come was not released in 1979...


 * I noticed that and removed it. Folkor 06:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Angelhead
Does this band actually exist? I can find no references for them outside of Wikipedia, nor can I find any of their music either online or in record stores. I think we should remove them from the header, since their influence (and even their existence) seems debatable at this point.


 * Angelhead did exist and were well known within the goth / indie scene in the UK for a while. Not sure if I'd class them as a notable Shoegazing band though. NickW 08:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Shoegazing → Shoegaze … Rationale: more common name … Please share your opinion at Talk:Shoegazing. — Recury 23:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Support, Shoegaze is the more common name for the genre, IMO. Recury 23:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, "shoegazing" is the original form. --ajn (talk) 09:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, Shoegazing is the original term, it is still as widely - if not more - in use as any more recent derivatives NickW 11:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - in the UK at the time "shoegazing" was the style, "shoegazers" the bands (and fans) and "shoegaze" was what they did. Those who want the move need to find some verifiable source for that change. -- Beardo 15:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, Shoegaze is more common, simpler, and easier to understand for an outsider.--EndlessVince 01:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - per WP:NC(CN). A quick google test shows that shoegaze is more common than shogazing (1,090,000 vs. 350,000 hits).
 * Oppose - "shoegazing" is the original form, and is also the more common term in the UK, where the scene was mostly based (see WP:MOS). A quick google test of .co.uk websites shows shoegazing is more common than shoegaze (64,000 v 15,900 hits). --Surachit 11:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per Recury. WesleyDodds 15:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments


 * I'm guessing that a lot of which you prefer depends on which side of the Atlantic you're on, and if you were around when the scene started. NickW 11:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nugaze and current trends
How do people feel about a reference to ethereal wave in this section? It's heavily influenced by the original 4AD sound. Donnacha 02:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Under this "current trends" area, I'd like to recommend Versoma's debut EP for diehard fans of shoegazer. It could best be described as some brutal ass shoegazing.

Also like to suggest adding the Safranin Sound and Design label in current trends. Home to Ceremony (ex-Skywave), Offering, and Alcian Blue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cpinto001 (talk • contribs) 13:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Influences
The influences section currently states "punk-era bands such as The Cramps, Pere Ubu and The Birthday Party proved influential in some cases, especially with the forerunners of the genre". I can't see this other than in early My Bloody Valentine tracks, and they were virtually a different band by the shoegazing era. I can't think of any other bands in the genre showing these influences. Any objections to me removing this?--Michig 17:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In dealing with influnces and, more so, the direct roots of 'shoegaze', I feel that far more emphasis in the article should placed and cited on two bands: namely, the Jesus & Mary Chain and Spacemen 3. They were proto-shoegaze. Similarly, the bands Loop and the later work of My Bloody Valentine. And the sound of Loop and the later, more well known, sound of My Bloody Valentine were both hugely influenced by Spacemen 3. All four of these bands had that 'wall of sound' which was so key to the sound of 'shoegaze' bands/music. The Cocteau Twins were also arguably proto-shoegaze: they had that ethereal quality that you hear in, say, Slowive and Chapterhouse. And wasn't a key member of the Cocteau Twins the producer for Lush, who had that soupy chorus effect all over their earlier records. Roland Sparkes (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, it was the magazines at the time that defined the sound, NOT the bands (although it was reported that they used to attend one another's gigs). There will be articles in early 90s issues of NME, Melody Maker, Select and Lime Lizard that will list what they thought these influences were. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.139.135 (talk) 01:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

pyschocandy
why is darklands replacing pyschocandy on the timeline? pyschocandy is clearly more of a shoegazing album. just listen to its wall-of-sound technique. 69.244.101.216 22:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


 * : no, in fact i find the entire entry way too slanted and accredited to mbv. 74.129.98.104 04:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding the request for a citation for Psychocandy as an influence on Shoegaze, I've come across this: http://smallswordsmagazine.com/articles/sound/shoegaze.html, perhaps someone with more experience with Wikipedia could let me know whether or not this is an acceptable source? 85.134.130.234 12:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The Dead C, pre-Siltbreeze
While often pigeon-holed as a noise-rock band, The Dead C's earliest work, e.g. the Live Dead See and 43 Sketch for a Poster cassettes from 1987, and even their mid-period musical output like Trapdoor F***ing Exit are really not far from what is defined as shoegazer. Listen to the songs "Angel", "3 Years", and "Mighty" on the compilation Vain, Erudite, and Stupid to see what I mean. While perhaps not as poppy or overtly Velvet Underground and Chameleons-influenced as the movement itself, I think they qualify as at least its spiritual predecessors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.92.126.218 (talk) 05:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Improving this article
This article seems to be getting worse and worse. Shoegazing was a shortlived UK scene with half a dozen key bands, but this article includes lots and lots of only tenuously-related stuff. I would suggest that some changes need to be made: Any views?--Michig 18:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * My Bloody Valentine, Dinosuar Jr and Yo La Tengo tour - none were considered shoegazing bands at the time, and the scene was well underway by 1990, so this tour was an influence on what exactly?.
 * Many of the bands listed as 'loosely associated with the genre' were just around at the same time and don't belong in this article. (Noisy indie-rock isn't shoegazing)
 * Nu-gaze and current trends: The whole section belongs somewhere else, with just a mention here. The long list of mostly non-entity bands doesn't belong in Wikipedia at all.
 * The shoegazing timeline needs trimming to just the key bands and albums - it's a mess at the moment.


 * I generally agree. Shoegazing was my sound of choice at the time and I struggle with the perspective that's developed in this article - especially the endless debate re: 'Shoegazing' v. later Americanised labels. There's a kind of revisionist and 'looking through a keyhole' type-thing going on. At the very least the Nu-gaze stuff should be moved to a seperate article. NickW 08:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Use the general genre page outline used at Grunge music and Britpop. That'll give the article a sensible structure. I would help out more on the article, but sources on shoegaze as a movement (as opposed to individual bands or albums) are hard to come by. WesleyDodds 15:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree. There's a heavy American influence on Wikipedia that is claiming a lot of the credit for this 'invented' genre. Nu-gaze needs less presence for a start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.139.135 (talk) 01:47, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Nu-gaze
I have removed the following text from the section "Nu-gaze and current trends== as if it's going to stay at all it should be in a separate Nu-gaze article.

The genre has the same self-contained tendencies that lead to the shoegazing label "the scene that celebrates itself." Clubs such as Club AC30, Sonic Cathedral and Club Violaine, along with the support of such labels as The Gaia Project, Elephant Stone Records, Hungry Audio, Clairecords and Bella Union (run by an ex-Cocteau Twin member) are supporting new dream-pop and shoegaze bands. There are many holdouts of devoted players and listeners on both sides of the Atlantic, and even a strong following in South America. Bands exhibiting the influence, in different ways, include Ripple Wrinkle (Atlanta) Hartfield (Japan), Shade (Pittsburgh), A Place to Bury Strangers (NYC), The Offering (Virginia), Autumn Thieves (NYC), The Colorfield Theory (Philadelphia), Skydivers (DC), Sciflyer (San Fransisco), Mean Red Spiders (Toronto), Highspire (Philadelphia/Lancaster, PA), Malory (Germany), Skywave (Virginia), Scattered Planets (Philadelphia), Brasilia (NYC), Isobella (Florida), Graze (Philadelphia), Lockgroove (Boston), Alcian Blue (DC), The Defog (Philadelphia), Plastron (Philadelphia), Carson's Machine, Asobi Seksu (NYC), Mahogany (Detroit, MI), A Sunny Day in Glasgow (Philadelphia, PA), Charlene (Boston), Project Skyward (NYC), Autodrone (NYC), Dimazza (Philadelphia), R'Tronica (NYC), L'Envoi (Philadelphia), The Opposite Sex (DC), Grayland (Virginia), Soundpool (NYC), Lst Yrs Mdl (Brooklyn), Psiconautas (Puerto Rico), Ifwhen (ex-All Natural Lemon And Lime Flavors) (NJ/NYC), Panda Riot (Philadelphia), Mellonova (Toronto), Hollowphonic (Toronto), Resplandor (Perú), Aerial Love Feed (NYC), Bastion (NYC), The Phobes (Baltimore), helicopter helicopter (Boston), Kid Snyper (Toronto), For That Day (Toronto), Dreamend (Chicago), Morticia's Chair (Cleveland), My Education (Austin, Texas), Thinking Machines (Philadelphia, PA), White Star Line (Toronto), Whirlaway (Florida), Surface of Eceon (Landing and Yume Bitsu side project-CT), Starter Culture (Philadelphia), The Emerald Down (Columbus, OH), Alaisha (Australia) and many more. The U.S. has two annual festivals dedicated to the genre, one held in Philadelphia called the Popnoise Festival, and the other in Virginia called the Walls Of Soundfest.

--Michig 12:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Galaxie 500
I think it is worth mentioning the influence from the likes of Galaxie 500, if not a reference in the timeline. Those who have heard should know what I am talking about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.242.26.64 (talk • contribs).
 * You mean a band that formed in 1988, and who were not a shoegazing band, were an influence on a scene that started in about 1987? Don't think so.--Michig 10:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well if we are going to include Dinosaur Jr. and The Cure I say, why not? The shoegazing scene did not begin in '87 and end in '88. Galaxie 500 formed in 1986 and provided a unique atmosphere (not the first band too, I know), but before Loveless(1991!), everything else was just noise pop.  Let's not forget either, bands like Slowdive and Pale Saints citing Galaxie 500. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.242.26.64 (talk • contribs).
 * Let's not include Dinosaur Jr. - they were regarded as part of the wave of grunge (or pre-grunge) bands that became popular in Britain in the late 80's - really nothing to do with shoegazing. As for The Cure, I believe they were an influence, and just as importantly they were around before the Shoegazing bands emerged, not at the same time like Galaxie 500.  Maybe some of the shoegazing bands were influenced by Galaxie 500, and if that's the case it would be worth mentioning in the articles about those specific bands, but to qualify as an influence on the scene itself they would have had to been around earlier (according to their WP article, which has just been altered, they formed in 1987 - around the same time as Chapterhouse, Ride and Lush - and their first release was in 1988).  If you think everything before 'Loveless' was 'just noise pop', maybe you should check out the first couple of Kitchens of Distinction singles (from 1987 and 1988), or the early singles from Chapterhouse, Lush, Slowdive and Ride, all of which were pre-1991.--Michig 12:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree with all of that but I just can't see Disintegration doing anything for the scene. That came out when, '89?

Since when did shoegaze begin in 1987? That's completely arbitrary. You've basically picked a year at random. I mean Spacemen 3's Perfect Prescription came out that year, but that was no more shoegaze than Psychcandy or Head Over Heels, which were years earlier. Isn't Anything didn't come out until two years later. For this reason it doesn't really make any sense to discount a band like Galaxie 500 as being an important influence because they released their first album the year after 1987, even though this year was basically pulled out of your ass. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.134.221.255 (talk • contribs).
 * I'm reluctant to enter into a discussion with someone who can't behave in a civil manner, but the term 'shoegazing' was first used in 1990, and the bands that the term was first used to describe formed in 1987 (Chapterhouse), 1988 (Lush) and 1990 (Moose). Spacemen 3 were never described as a shoegazing band back then, nor were the Jesus and Mary Chain, The Cocteau Twins or Galaxie 500 (who released their first album in February 1989 in the US, September 1989 in the UK, according to my sources).  And Isn't Anything came out in 1988, just in case you find facts at all important.--Michig 15:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I suggest you get better sources! Those were the CD issuings of the first Galaxie 500 album, it was released on vinyl in the US in 1988. Though I will concede that Isn't Anything was released in November of 1988, so I was off by a whole two months. Bravo! With regard to your actual argument I am a little bit confused. Are you saying that shoegaze as a genre began in 1987 or 1990? Okay, there were bands that started in 1987 and afterwards that were refered to as shoegaze bands from about 1990. Sure that's fine. My Bloody Valentine started around 1984 (I'm not exactly sure, so don't bother finding the exact date, it's not important) and they were also most definitely being called a shoegaze band by the time 1990 rolled around. Similarly the Cocteau Twins started in 1982 and by the time they released Heaven Or Las Vegas the were being called shoegaze too. Which I should help to make clear why I'm of the opinion that 1987 is a pretty arbitrary year to say that shoegaze began. Even the shoegazing timeline in the article begins in 1984!


 * Oh, and I'm sorry if my inability to 'behave in a civil manner' (!!!) offends you. You can take comfort in that fact that I'll spend eternity in Geek Hades pushing a boulder up a hill. <3 Honest bob 19:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Calling me a 'fuckwit' doesn't exactly help your argument. I wouldn't want to put a start date on shoegazing as it didn't just suddenly appear one day, but usage of the term, and the bands that it was used for, did.  I still can't see a big Galaxie 500 influence on the early shoegazing bands.  Every genre starts somewhere and has influences (which by definition must have pre-dated the genre itself), but it doesn't make those influences part of the genre.  Unless punk rock started in the 50's of course.--Michig 08:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What? I never called you or anybody else a 'fuckwit'. Maybe you should read over what I wrote again. Anyhow, I can hear a definite Galaxie 500 influence on Slowdive, Pale Saints and early period Lush, and as I've said before I don't think the difference between 1987 and 1988 should really make any odds in this matter. There were bands that influenced the genre more, but lets face it music is constantly evolving and a band can have an influence on a genre even after that genre has come onto being (especially when it's so difficult to pinpoint when exactly it did come into being). This is the point I'm trying to make. Honest bob 19:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The idea that Galaxie 500 wasn't an influence because they didn't influence the ENTIRE scene just doesn't make sense to me. Some bands were influenced by the JAMC, some Cocteau Twins, others Galaxie 500, and the rest Spacemen 3 or Loop, etc. Galaxie 500 certainly deserve credit.

Definitions
I have added a reference to the phrase being coined in a review of a Moose gig. I have a source from 1992 which I have cited. In an interview with Steve Lamacq on BBC 6 Music in 2006, Russell Yates backed up this explanation. The idea that Andy Ross invented the term to describe members of his staff who went to see Shoegazing bands doesn't seem to hold much water - if they went to see Shoegazing bands, the term must have been in prior use, so I have removed this - it was based solely on a letter to a music magazine 15 years after the fact anyway, so is hardly reliable.--Michig 17:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Tidy up
I have tidied this article up a little, removing passages that have been tagged as needing refs for a while. A few other edits:
 * changed "overwhelmingly loud, distorted guitars, often with waves of feedback and buzz" to "extensive use of guitar effects" - didn't really fit bands like Lush, Chapterhouse, Moose, etc.
 * I think the fact that many of the original shoegazing artists have turned to acoustic music can be accepted without requiring references.--Michig 08:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Legacy?
The area of the article on Legacy is not exactly substantial, surely the influence of 'Gaze on more modern music such as Maps and Giant Drag is worth a mention?

The Jesus and Mary Chain
How can an article trying to describe Shoegaze and it's history even pretend to start without enormous mentions of The Jesus and Mary Chain? They arent even mentioned in the current version of this article. -- 74.129.108.127 21:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that they should be mentioned, definitely. They were around before shoegaze took off but heavily influenced the movement with Psychocandy and became influenced by shoegaze itself later on with Honey's Dead. This stuff is pretty much true, but needs reliable sources, like the All Music Guide...--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 10:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I refer to my above comment85.134.218.190 (talk) 14:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've found a couple of sources that mention JAMC and have added these to the article.--Michig (talk) 21:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I also feel that more content and emphasis in the article needs to be placed on the Jesus & Mary Chain.Roland Sparkes (talk) 15:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Creation Records
Same as before, no serious article on this subject can be written without mention of Creation Records Half the bands mentioned have appeared on this label, which was known for being a breeding ground and promoter of such acts. 74.129.108.127 21:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think mention should be mae in this article to Creation Records and othe key labels concerned with shogaze bands, also 4AD. It does help to define the scene. Roland Sparkes (talk) 15:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.139.135 (talk) 01:49, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Merge
As the article says, "the scene that celebrates itself", was a simply phrase used by journalists to refer to the shoegaze scene, so there's no reason why it should have its own article. It should be merged into this one. -- Hux 16:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

'Showgazers' was a term invented by the same journalists at the same time to describe most of the same bands. That's why it's relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.139.135 (talk) 01:51, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "The Scene That Celebrates Itself" was more about bands that hung around together in London and played in each others' bands - they weren't all Shoegazing bands. There's a big overlap in the bands but they're not totally the same thing.--Michig 16:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Michig. From what I remember, TSTCI was more a term used by Melody Maker to refer to a loose association of bands that basically went to each other's shows all the time. While many of those groups were lumped in with "shoegaze", there were many shoegaze bands that weren't in "The Scene" (such as, oh, Drop Nineteens and other such American bands) and (probably) many bands in "The Scene" that weren't shoegaze (though I can't remember anymore who precisely was involved). So, we certainly have two overlapping sets, with perhaps a large area of overlap, but the sets are different by definition. 207.34.120.71 15:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And pursuant to my comment above, maybe it's a good idea to edit the Shoegazerarticle to clarify that, while some shoegaze bands might have been in TSTCI, the musical movement itself by 1990-91 was already spreading far beyond the few clubs in London where TSTCI was hanging out. 207.34.120.71 16:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The Britpop article mentions 'the scene...' in relation to early Brit pop bands, which is a something to bear in mind. The scene wasn't limited to one genre of music.85.134.172.240 (talk) 10:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The merge proposal has been here for nearly 4 months now, and consensus seems to be for not merging. I'll remove the tag(s) unless anyone strongly objects.--Michig (talk) 22:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I actually was about to remove the tags yesterday, but was distracted by something else. So I agree with you. However, a few sections downwards HisSpaceResearch indicated that he is against it. Although he did not provide any arguments, I suggest that we give him some time to come up with them. And we will of course be open to his argumentation. -- Pepve (talk) 00:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been one more week. I feel it is save to conclude that consensus has been reached (this consensus includes Hux, who proposed the merger, but it may exclude HisSpaceResearch below). I removed the templates. -- Pepve (talk) 03:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

THey Might Be Giants
They Might Be Giants' Myspace says that they are shoe gaze. Probably a joke, but since I read the article and still don't understand it, I guess there is a possibility.
 * It must be a joke. They're not remotely shoegaze, whether musically or stylistically. It would be like saying Barenaked Ladies is shoegaze! ;) -- Hux 08:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Smashing Pumpkins
Should the The Smashing Pumpkins be mentioned in the article, as a main stream arstist that was influenced by shoegaze? If not please explain. Thanks --buzlink 05:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If you have references to reliable sources that back this up, then by all means add it.--Michig 07:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Their sound. -- Clinton  (talk)  03:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a nice suggestion. But not an answer to the question of reliable sources. Please see WP:OR if you're curious about Wikipedia's policy regarding these kinds of issues. -- Pepve (talk) 03:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * From Smashing Pumpkins
 * The Smashing Pumpkins' distinctive sound... involved layering numerous guitar tracks onto a song during the recording process...
 * From shoegazing
 * Common musical elements in shoegazing are distortion (aka "fuzzbox"), droning riffs and a "wall of sound" from noisy guitars. Typically, two distorted rhythm guitars are played together to give an amorphous quality to the sound.
 * Seems about the same. And then, there is this, coming straight from the Smashing Pumpkins article
 * ...Alan Moulder was originally hired to mix Siamese Dream because Corgan was a fan of his work producing shoegaze bands such as My Bloody Valentine, Ride, and Slowdive.
 * The editor does cite a source on that one too.
 * Clinton  (talk)  01:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Pitchfork article about the documentary 'Beautiful Noise' mentions Billy Corgan as one of the 'noisemakers who owe a debt to shoegaze'. The article is already used a source on this page, so perhaps you could use that.85.134.188.75 (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

All the sources mentioned are valid ones, and yet there seems to be a group of people who don't want to acknowledge that shoegazing had an impact on Smashing Pumpkins overall sound,which is particularly evident on parts of Gish and almost all of Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie and The Infinite Sadness. Even Machina has some shoegazing influence, as the band was intentionally playing to everyone's "image" of them. I see that any mention of Smashing Pumpkins has been removed since I put it up there a couple of months ago. Due to the listing of the above sources, I am putting them back on the list of bands on which shoegazing has had an influence. 75.65.2.45 (talk) 23:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference between being influenced by shoegazing (which the Pumpkins obviously were) and being a shoegazing band. The list that you keep adding them back onto (and that I keep deleting them off of) is a list of SHOEGAZING MUSICIANS. The Pumpkins do not belong there. They were as influenced by Ride and MBV as they were by Black Sabbath, yet I don't see them in the list of heavy metal artists. They are alternative rock. Sticking them on here is the equivalent of puting Radiohead on the list (actually, Radiohead would fit much better on here than the Smashing Pumpkins. But don't get any ideas). 64.230.104.7 (talk) 02:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC)toyboxmonster

The Smashing Pumpkins are about as shoegaze as Silversun Pickups or My Vitriol and yet both bands proudly occupy spots on this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.170.200.86 (talk) 02:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

the pumpkins' wide ranging sound has often included shoegaze songs. siamese dream would be an album that almost has an entirely shoegaze atmosphere to it. the new album oceania is also in the category of shoegaze atmosphere. i'd say they're both influenced by and are a shoegaze band. they certainly write and release shoegaze music and the influence of shoegaze on their music cannot be denied. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.91.38.2 (talk) 16:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Starflyer 59
Although not as well-known as others, Starflyer 59 definitely deserves a mention. See: Silver, Gold, and Americana. SenorPsychotique 23:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The Scene That Celebrates Itself
I strongly support a merge and redirect to this article, of any sourcable content from that article.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 10:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a few headings upwards there's a discussion on this subject (#Merge). Might I suggest that you provide some of your arguments there? Thanks. -- Pepve (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm leaning towards an oppose to the the merge. "The scene" wasn't synonymous with shoegaze; although it included a number of shoegaze bands, there were some (like Blur) that were not. A brief overview of "The scene" is provided in John Harris' book on Britpop. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like to take this opportunity to urge every contributor to keep the discussion centralised. It's not that hard, just press page-up or click here: Talk:Shoegazing. Thank you. -- Pepve (talk) 12:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Note: I concluded above that consensus is not to merge the articles. Please object there. -- Pepve (talk) 03:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've redirected The Secne That Celebrates Itself here. If someone restores it, I might consider an AfD.-h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 07:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the redirect in line with consensus reached here, and improved The Scene That Celebrates Itself with references. I feel the article is now much better than it was and explains quite clearly that it was not at the time synonymous with 'Shoegazing'. User:HisSpaceResearch has seen fit to nominate The Scene That Celebrates Itself for deletion despite this. Editors who contributed to the recent discussion (and anyone else for that matter) may wish to contribute to the discussion at Articles for deletion/The Scene That Celebrates Itself. --Michig (talk) 20:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Bauhaus and The Cure
I'm planning to remove Bauhaus and the Cure from the Influences section, unless someone can provide an adequate source (or sources) stating that these two bands influenced shoegaze. The article from The Muso definitely isn't appropriate. Whoever decided to cite that as a source must have not read the article: it only states that 'bands such as The Cure, Bauhaus and Cocteau Twins could well be seen as precursors'. This is a long way from stating that these bands were influences on shoegaze. Precursor and influence are not interchangeable terms; they do not mean the same thing! The author of this article isn't even confident enough to explicitly state that these acts are precursors, only that they could be seen as precursors. This is a long way from explicitly stating that The Cure and Bauhaus influenced the shoegaze scene, which is essentially what would be required from such a source. 85.134.154.53 (talk) 01:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Lists of artists — when describing influences, followers, etc. — are inherently problematic. And even more so on Wikipedia, because every fanboy wants his artist in the list. So I don't like to spend a lot of time on them, the effect/effort ratio is too low. That said, go ahead, as long as you do not completely delete the reference. -- Pepve (talk) 16:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I added that in because the article has suffered in the past from all sorts of pathetic claims that certain bands were influences on shoegazing, always without references. I think The Cure were an influence, but Bauhaus probably not, but didn't feel it was right to pick out only the bands that I agreed with from the article. I don't mind you removing these, but don't want to see the list go back to being an unreferenced mess of individual editors' POV.--Michig (talk) 17:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I realise that finding appropriate references for this article is a bit of a nightmare, but I do agree about The Cure deserving a mention. I'll do my best to find a better reference for them before I remove anything.85.134.185.199 (talk) 00:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A fair number of shoegaze bands started as goth or goth-oriented (MBV and Lush, to name two). I don't think either Bauhaus or The Cure could be considered major influences for the genre as a whole, though. The Mary Chain, Cocteau Twins, Husker Du, and Dinosaur Jr seem like the most common influences for shoegaze bands. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

With its wall of sound production, The Cure's Disintegration album (e.g. Plainsong) bears similarities to shoegaze music and in me and my friends' opinion they were an influence on 'shoegazers'. Or maybe shoegazers influenced them, or maybe it was just that this album sold a lot of records. Tough business, writing an encyclopedia article on a genre. this is why professional writers build articles out of quotes -- it avoids all this subjectivity. 202.82.171.186 (talk) 08:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Disintegration came out after Isn't Anything, so I doubt it had any influence on shoegaze. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added The Velvet Underground, Sonic Youth, Hüsker Dü and Spacemen 3 to the influences section. Now if I could only find a source that mentions the influence of the Byrds I'd be happy...62.77.181.13 (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice to have another source. This backs up The Cure also - Pornography seems an obvious influence to me, although others, I'm sure, would disagree.--Michig (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In some interviews Slowdive said they "stole" the basslines from The Cure. And in 1991, Halstead said that Siouxsie Sioux was an influence on Goswell. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.65.97 (talk) 21:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Blind Mr. Jones used the same basslines. That's a typical The Cure bassline. (Even the Stone Roses had a Post-Punk influence. No wonder, some of their songs have been produced by Martin Hannett.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.10.101 (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Renaming
Apparently there's been a vote on the name of this article - again - last time (see above) there was no consensus and the original 'shoegazing' term stayed. Surely this latest vote should have likewise been discussed here, so people with an interest and knowledge of this subject could participate? Not impressed. NickW (talk) 22:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

To add to above - the guidelines here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves suggest the renaming hasn't been carried out as it should have. Can anyone involved please add some info. here. NickW (talk) 13:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The most recent and complete source, Patrick Sisson's oral history in the December 2008 XLR8R, says "shoegaze" -- not "shoegazing." The article should definitely be moved. Aryder779 (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * XLR8R is an American magazine. 'Shoegaze' seems to be the most commonly used term in the US, so an article in this magazine using it isn't surprising. The original term and the one most commonly used in the UK (where it originated) is 'Shoegazing'.--Michig (talk) 19:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The article has already been renamed a few times already. Personally I prefer 'shoegaze' to 'shoegazing', but I don't think there's much sense in renaming the article again, as this dynamic could continue indefinitely. There will always be people who prefer one name over the other. As long as the alternative names are mentioned at the beginning of the article I think that should be enough. 62.77.181.13 (talk) 10:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Recent Resurgence of Shoegaze
This article seems to imply that the shoegaze died off in the 90s, when infact there have been a great number of shoegaze and shoegaze-inspired band in the time since. In particular, there has been a resurgence of the genre in the last year or so, not only in terms of releases but also in terms of it's popularity within music communities (particularly online). Recently: The Depreciation Guild, The Daysleepers, Asobi Seksu, Airiel, Moscow Olympics, Have a Nice Life, M83 and Jesu. With My Bloody Valentine touring and potentially releasing new material in the near future, it seems the genre is alive and kicking. The article should perhaps reflect as much? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.47.246.155 (talk) 05:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose it begs the question, does the article refer to a style of music or to a movement? Generally the perspective taken in the article is that shoegaz(e/er/ing)was a musical movement from the late '80s and early '90s in the UK. Asobi Seksu, etc. are thought of as being influenced by shoegaze rather than being a part of it. Opinions? 62.77.181.13 (talk) 13:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

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Quotes in "Style, roots, and influences" section
The quotes here need to be attributed in the text. It isn't clear enough from the indentation that these are direct quotes, and in some cases the opinion expressed are incorrect (e.g. the term 'Shoegazing' wasn't coined until 1990, so the idea that the term 'Shoegaze' originated in the late 80's is wrong) - it needs to be clear that these quotes are expressing one person's opinion.--Michig (talk) 09:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be averse to someone taking them out, or at least paraphrasing them. We don't need three huge block quotes. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:29, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't remove Gothic Rock, Post-punk, Ethereal etc.
They're definitely an origin. Many groups, such as The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Cocteau Twins, Joy Division, were a great influence on Slowdive, Astral, Alcian Blue etc. Read their interviews! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.76.102 (talk) 15:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What individual bands listened to before they were famous isn't really the issue here. This section is for listing those genres that directly influenced the ganre of Shoegazing as a whole. This means those that were an influence on the original Shoegazing bands. If you have reliable sources stating that specific genres or movements were an influence on several of the original shoegazing bands that would be helpful.--Michig (talk) 19:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Slowdive is an original Shogazing band. --94.134.5.64 (talk) 18:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. an early one at least. But where are the citations to demonstrate that these genres directly led to the music of the early 1990s Shoegazing bands as a whole?--Michig (talk) 21:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)


 * 1.) In the article (Bauhaus, The Cure).
 * 2.) In their interviews.
 * 3.) In myspace profiles.
 * 4.) The Cocteau Twins played Gothic rock on their first album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.13.49 (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Look at this, guys... A description of MBV's music, found in the Pockit Rockit Music Finder from 2004 (what a shitty name for a book). Is this useful? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.76.152 (talk) 17:15, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Timeline
I suggest we remove the 'Timeline'. Aside from a few precursors and influences it all spans just a few years, and doesn't really give the reader much useful information that couldn't be summarized in a few lines of prose. It's also enormous in proportion to the rest of the article. Thoughts?--Michig (talk) 10:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree it doesn't add much, if anything, and is disproportionate.-- SabreBD  (talk)  12:33, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * very true, i took it out

"emerged from the United Kingdom in the late 1980s."
Christ no. My Blood Valentine is from Dublin, which sure AS HELL is not part of the UK. Anglophile bastards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.86.59.57 (talk) 01:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The term was invented in the early 90s too and later applied to bands from the late 80s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.139.135 (talk) 01:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * MBV lived in the UK at the time, and "shoegaze" emerged following Isn't Anything. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

This keeps coming up again. Whoever keeps trying to add "Ireland" to the "emerged from" sentence, please stop and try to actually read what's being said there. It doesn't matter where the members of MBV were born or lived, the sentence is talking about where the music genre started and achieved notice. At the time it did that, MBV and all the other acts that formed the genre and inspired the name, were living and working in the UK. There was no shoegaze scene in Ireland at that time. Does that make it easier to grasp why your edit keeps being undone?Greg Fasolino (talk) 16:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)


 * We have another edit-warring IP with no sources insisting on adding Ireland to the 'origin' purely because My Bloody Valentine (a band that weren't even a shoegazing band) originally formed in Ireland, conveniently ignoring the fact that the version of MBV that possibly influenced the early shoegazing bands formed in London, keeping the name of the earlier band simply because they couldn't think of anything else (as detailed in the article on the band), had two English members and were based entirely in London. All of the early bands that received the 'shoegazing' label were from South-East England. I can't keep reverting, however ignorant these edits without violating WP:3RR, so if anyone else can help... --Michig (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I will step in again, too. This is absurd. The person who keeps re-editing obviously has no interest in logic as we have all tried repeatedly to explain. This article isn't about MBV or Dublin or where some of the members were born. It's about a genre from England, that began in England. Here's a pertinent example. Unless I am mistaken, the guy (Kool Herc?) who invented hip hop back in the mid-1970s in the Bronx, New York, was born in Jamaica (the island, not the NYC borough). This fact does not make hip hop a Jamaican genre! It was invented and formed in New York. Same thing here. It doesn't matter where half of MBV were born, it doesnt matter where an earlier, non-shoegaze version of the band formed. The version of MBV that sparked shoegaze was a band based in England. End of story.Greg Fasolino (talk) 17:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

OK so now we get another dumb edit war calling MBV an Irish band, despite the fact that the lineup of the band at that time were half English, based in London, bore little relation to the band that formed in Dublin, and even Kevin Shields' heritage is not that simple. This has no place in this article - the history of My Bloody Valentine is complex and is covered in the article on the band. --Michig (talk) 21:27, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Apteva (talk) 03:23, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Shoegazing → Shoegaze – "Shoegazing" may have been the original term, but "Shoegaze" is by far the more popular term, grabbing 3.3 million Google search results as opposed to 624 thousand for "shoegazing". See WP:COMMONNAME. Lachlan Foley (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per several previous discussions. This has been done to death. Let's move on. --Michig (talk) 15:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Use the preferred variation in British English, in an article about a genre that originated and was first named in England, per Article_titles -- Foetusized (talk) 15:43, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Blackgaze
With the raising popularity of bands like Alcest and Deafhaven, should this fusion of Shoegaze and Atmospheric Black Metal be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.192.36.134 (talk) 06:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Psychedelic rock/Neo-psychedelia
Is there any reason why this genre doesn't appear in the infobox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.74.127 (talk) 12:17, 15 May 2014 (UTC)


 * After a week without any answer i just added psychedelic rock. Like many other styles shoegazing was a part of neo-psychedelia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.66.192 (talk) 10:52, 22 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Because without supporting sources it's original research?--Michig (talk) 16:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The funny thing is: it's already a part of the article. No OR at all:


 * "The typically cited sonic blueprint for shoegaze’s ebb and squall is a holy trinity of ’80s U.K. bands: Cocteau Twins, The Jesus and Mary Chain, and My Bloody Valentine. But common musical threads between the different bands include garage rock, ’60s psych, and American indie bands like Sonic Youth and Dinosaur Jr."


 * http://www.xlr8r.com/features/2009/01/vapour-trails-revisiting-shoegaz