Talk:Shooting of Duncan Lemp/Archive 1

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Killing of Atatiana Jefferson which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

IP-hopping vandal
There appears to be an individual changing their IP but making substantively the same edits, all of which go against neutrality and contradict our sources. I'm really not sure what to do about it, other than revert. Maybe the article needs to be protected? FollowTheSources (talk) 00:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

This might come in handy.
From: https://www.mymilitia.com/forums/topic/15292-maryland-official-roll-call-lounge/
 * Hello all! My name is Duncan Lemp, I am an active III%'r and looking for local members & recruits. I'm in Potomac, Maryland but will to travel within the tri-state for community service, FTX's, etc.. Please reach out to me on any platform using my usernames (CaptainCuck42 / Pvt. YungQuant on Zello, yungquant most places, Duncan Socrates Lemp on facebook) to link up if you're interested. Looking forward to defending my oath to the constitution with you.

FollowTheSources (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That would be a WP:PRIMARY or it may be spoofed. Toddst1 (talk) 20:47, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See below. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, in case it's not clear that he's associated with this boogaloo stuff, here's his own post on that:
 * https://www.mymilitia.com/forums/topic/61441-boogaloo/?tab=comments#comment-83990

Not sure whether either of these goes into the article, but these are the primary sources that the already-cited secondary sources refer to. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Possible Additional Sources / References Don't use these
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Americanus (talk • contribs) 17:51, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.facebook.com/duncan.lemp
 * https://duncanlemp.com/
 * https://linkedin.com/in/duncan-lemp


 * See WP:PSTS and more importantly, WP:USERG for why we don't use stuff like that if it's not already obvious to you. Toddst1 (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * https://apnews.com/0840d3f354693625605290eecf307ac6


 * Thanks Todd, it's been a few years since my last edit. Seems like a great place for those links, on the talk page :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Americanus (talk • contribs) 18:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note that duncanlemp.com says his email is yungquant@duncanlemp.com. This is consistent with the use of "yungquant" and "YungQuant" by him in various social media sites, just like the unnamed friends interviewed for the news articles said.
 * So, not that we need primary sources to confirm the secondary sources, but I feel more confident seeing them for myself. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And I could register duncansocrateslemp.com this afternoon and post "I'm still alive!" Toddst1 (talk) 20:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You could, but unless you had a time machine, you couldn't go back to 9/11/2019 to register duncanlemp.com. And then you'd have to keep it concealed for the last six months of Lemp's life, so that he doesn't notice.
 * Like I said, we don't need to use these primary sources because we have secondary sources confirming his association with variations on "yungquant". I'm just personally glad to get primary sources confirming this fact, so nobody has to wonder whether the secondary sources got it right when they attributed it to unnamed friends of Lemp. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As long as those attributions are backed up by WP:RS. Toddst1 (talk) 20:51, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * They are, and those sources are cited. FollowTheSources (talk) 21:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Killing of Atatiana Jefferson which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:18, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Citations that were needed
I believe they've all been provided. Most were covered by either of the two ABC articles. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

WP:RSP
The "American Conservative" references have been removed since they were being used to document fact. WP:RSP shows consensus that The American Conservative is a usable source for attributed opinions. As TAC is published by the American Ideas Institute, an advocacy organization, TAC is considered biased or opinionated and is unsuitable as a reliable source in that context. Toddst1 (talk) 17:29, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

White supremacist term, "boogaloo".
There's been what appears to be a single, unregistered account with multiple IP's who keeps trying to change the article so that it doesn't identify "boogaloo" as a white-supremacist term. However, our sources do identify it as such.

I've added another high-quality source -- this time, NPR -- and adjusted the description to stick closer to our sources, directly paraphrasing one. If you have suggestions to improve them, I would prefer that we discuss them here first. However, if your goal is to suppress the key fact that "boogaloo" is primarily a white-supremacist term, that's not going to fly because our sources are very clear on this matter. FollowTheSources (talk) 14:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Mistake?
I brought this up on their talk page, but this edit appears to be a mistake. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:21, 13 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.

Summary: They asked how the citations supported the text, so I quoted a few sections, which I believe satisfies their request. My conclusion is that their revert was mistaken, but made in good faith. They just didn't read the sources carefully enough, which happens to all of us. Restoring now. FollowTheSources (talk) 21:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.

Activism
There've been a few, very blatant attempts to contradict our sources by hiding the fact that Lemp was a right-wing activist. This is not controversial. FollowTheSources (talk) 22:03, 13 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.
 * How was he active, how is that material to his shooting and which reliable sources demonstrate these answers?
 * I recently removed the statement that he was an activist, as it does not appear material to his shooting nor was it supported by any reliable source. Yes a few bloggers have siezed on his death and posthumously called him an activist, but that's hardly reliable or significant.  Toddst1 (talk) 02:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

"unconstituional"
Someone has opined in this article several times that the raid was "unconstituional" without providing any WP:RS to back up that WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. It appears that this article is being used as WP:ADVOCACY rather than an attempt to document the circumstances around the man's death. Toddst1 (talk) 17:47, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This is part of a pattern of vandalism that I've been reverting. They went so far as to change the title of an article we cite to remove "Far-Right". Clearly, they have an agenda to push. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:32, 15 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.

Birthday
I can find any number of articles confirming his age at death, but nothing with his birthday. I suppose I could search for a primary source, but I don't think that's the way we work here. Maybe just drop it from the infobox, as it doesn't particularly matter. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:50, 15 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.
 * Agreed. Toddst1 (talk) 21:08, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Boogaloo and white supremacy
From https://www.techtransparencyproject.org/articles/extremists-are-using-facebook-to-organize-for-civil-war-amid-coronavirus:
 * Organizations that study far right groups, including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and Institute for Strategic Dialogue, have found that the boogaloo has ties to white supremacist movements.

Do we need to include this citation, too? We have quite a few to confirm what sort of people are involved in this boogaloo thing. FollowTheSources (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.
 * I think we should stick to Lemp, the circumstances about his death and aftermath in this article. White supremacy would be a better place for the boogaloo stuff, I think. Toddst1 (talk) 22:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. I don't think we need more information about the boogaloo stuff in this article. I'm just wondering whether this could be another citation to make it clear that the reference to white supremacy in regard to the boogaloo stuff is straight from reliable sources, not any sort of editorializing on our part. FollowTheSources (talk) 00:29, 16 May 2020 (UTC) — Comment by blocked editor struck per WP:SOCKSTRIKE.

First line of "Background"
The cited ABC News article [1] does not mention anything about Mr. Lemp being involved in the creation of websites for "3 Percenters." It shows evidence that he self-identified as a member, but never claims that he created their website or any other similar sites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheSpoonKing (talk • contribs) 04:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right that the ABC article doesn't support that claim. I went back through the page history and found that, as I had suspected, a different source in the page was originally used to support it and at some point it just got removed from the end of that sentence. I've restored the claim, along with the inline cite that should have been there. GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2020
The III%er organization is described as a "far-right, paramilitary militia organization." This is not correct. I am the current leader of Zone 5 in Minnesota and the one thing that has been stressed recently amid the chaos is that we are NOT a militia. This is easy enough to fact check simply by reading the organization's bylaws which are available free to download from the website. Please correct the error by either removing mention of the organization or using an appropriate description as can be found in the bylaws mentioned above.

Thank you. 2601:448:4300:5C0:2C9B:A5D:FE88:A5F0 (talk) 04:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The organisation's self-published bylaws are not authoritative. If independent reliable sources say that the organisation is far-right and a paramilitary militia, then we'll trust the unbiased judgement of their writers. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

GoFundMe
It seems Wikipedia doesn't approve of links to GoFundMe pages. I was hoping to add this: "By June 8th, 2020, a GoFundMe page entitled "Justice for Duncan Lemp" had raised over $15,000 in support of his family". Should it be included, but without the link/reference? Or best to just leave this off altogether? Danski14(talk) 18:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It should only be added if secondary, reliable sources have mentioned it. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:36, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Duncan was a Libertarian, which is a Liberal organization.
In the article Duncan is referred to as having ties to far right groups. He was actually a Libertarian, so he was actually a Liberal. He talked about the Boogaloo, which is wrongly referred to in the article as a civil war against the government and liberals. Actually it is a meme referring to a revolution by liberal military groups such as Libertarian militias and the Black Panthers against Authoritarian groups such as Republicans and Democrats. Here is the article clarifying Libertarians beliefs:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/1061736194900116

I'm sure it was unintentional but it is pretty insulting for Libertarians to be called far right.

It should also be clarified that the no-knock raid was at 4:30am, which is one of the reasons, along with eyewitness testimony, that the inhabitants are said to have been asleep at the time of the assault. Bodycam footage has not been released as of this date.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawyer-man-asleep-police-fired-house-killing-69587748 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.100.228 (talk) 03:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Currently the article does not state that he was libertarian, so we'd need a source to add that. But any libertarian leanings do not negate the fact that he had ties to the 3%ers and others. As for the boogaloo movement, that is largely portrayed here in the same way as it is at boogaloo movement, and is based on the weight of reliable sourcing. As for the time of the raid, that is already mentioned in the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:58, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020
He wasnt a part of a far right group according to the guardian and had zero criminal records. That's fake news. 88.105.200.43 (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 16:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Sic semper tyrannis Edit
@GorillaWarfare

In the background section, Lemp's use of the phrase sic semper tyrannis is mentioned.

I would like to make an edit using this free thought project article that says " The idea is that a tyrant always meets a dire end, which is just and should be expected." with reference to the phrase as used by Lemp. Is this a reliable source? I've done very little editing so far so I'm not sure.

https://thefreethoughtproject.com/activist-killed-swat-seizing-guns/ Trtbasnbi (talk) 09:45, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That does not appear to me to be a very reliable source. At the very least, it is a heavily biased source, and would need to be attributed in-text. Can you specify the exact wording you were thinking of adding? GorillaWarfare (talk) 11:29, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The NYT source seems to me misleading to me as by linking him to Timothy McVeigh especially. Maybe we could add something like "The Free Thought Project suggests that the phrase is often used to express " The idea is that a tyrant always meets a dire end, which is just and should be expected."" What do you think? Trtbasnbi (talk) 19:32, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If there's an independent source saying as much I'd be open to it, but I don't think the Free Thought Project source can be used for such a claim given they presumably have a pretty strong interest in disassociating themselves from McVeigh. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:16, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. There's no evidence to show that Lemp wanted to murder over 100 innocent civilians or commit an act of terrorism and yet the NYT (rightly or wrongly) draws that parallel. Don't you think it would make sense to include the flip side of the argument/interpretation of the phrase? It seems better/fairer to include the McVeigh comment and the less violent interpretation and let the reader draw their own conclusion from that.Trtbasnbi (talk) 21:59, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No, because the New York Times is an independent reliable source and the Free Thought Project is not. The two are not equally-weighted viewpoints, and to treat them as such would be false balance. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:09, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah I guess you're right. How about this quote from a real published magazine The American Conservative "His Instagram page shows two photos with the motto “Sic Semper Tyrannis”—the Virginia “Thus Always to Tyrants” state motto, "? Seems like a reliable source. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/did-maryland-police-shoot-and-kill-a-sleeping-man/ Trtbasnbi (talk) 22:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That is also considered to be a biased source (WP:RSP), so my opinion is the same as with the Free Thought Project. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay so the consensus states that it's usable as an attributed opinion. There must be a way of including it without creating a false balance, right?Trtbasnbi (talk) 22:42, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, that's the same thing I said above about the FTP (At the very least, it is a heavily biased source, and would need to be attributed in-text.). However I think that since TAC isn't as closely linked to Lemp it could maybe be used with careful attribution. I can try to write something once I'm finished working for the day. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I look forward to seeing your work and learning something as well Trtbasnbi (talk) 22:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I ended up having too much trouble doing the in-text attribution in a way that didn't either a) imply there was some doubt as to whether sic semper tyrannis is the state motto of Virginia, or b) overstate TAC and NYT's beliefs that Lemp was referencing either the state motto or Wilkes Booth/McVeigh's statements. Given that there's no question as to whether it's the state motto, I decided omitting in-text attribution was okay, though I'd still rather figure out a way to include it. Open to suggestions from other talk page watchers, or input on whether folks think it's UNDUE. Diff for convenience. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)