Talk:Shopping mall/Archive 1

many small stores in one building
What are buildings with many small retailers called? This has been common in the US for many decades and is an increasingly popular form of shopping and leasing/owning for both consumers and small retailers. It often also includes collaboration and cooperation in marketing and other things. --Espoo 12:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder if "mini-mall" is the word you're looking for, or if "mini-mall" is too small for what you're thinking of. SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't think of the term now, but it definitely does not include "mall". The whole idea is sort of like an anti-mall, i.e. small, individually owned "real" stores in which the salespeople are often the store owners and are usually professionals in their field who know what they're talking about. They originally often existed in (renovated) abandoned downtown factories etc. but are sometimes found even in newer buildings. This is rare however because these specialist stores are on a tight budget due to the cut-throat competition of "real" malls selling junk and using armies of usually clueless slaves. --Espoo 08:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I know what you're talking about---certain renovated buildings in tourist-oriented areas that are full of small boutiques. I have seen those in Seattle and Monterey.  I think they're shopping centers.  Does anyone know?  --Coolcaesar 18:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
descended from French arcades, department stores
 * A claim is being made that the first use of the term strip mall was in 1984 in South Carolina. I think the term is older than that. Will take some research. Kingturtle 08:00 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Hmm, looking around the Internet, it appears that Southdale in Edina, MN came first, though that seems to conflict with the oral history in Minnesota... &mdash;Mulad 15:22 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * A "leasing information" PDF on Rosedale's website indicates the building opened in 1969&mdash;many years later than Southdale (1954). &mdash;Mulad 15:32 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Or was that 1956? &mdash;Mulad 15:37 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit confused about this article. My understanding is that in the US, the word "mall" is sometimes used to describe a large building containing many shops.  In Australia and the UK, such a building would be called a shopping centre, but definitely not a mall.

In contrast, a pedestrian-only street would be called a mall, while a covered mall -- an elegongated, mostly linear, hall with shops off it -- would be called an arcade.

This isn't at all what the article says, so perhaps someone can correct my perceptions? -- Pde


 * Hi, all of the terms used in the article are US terms. Perhaps you can clarify the UK/Australian terms in the article. Ed Sanville 12:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Seconding Pde's comments; the article presently reads as though 'mall' is the preferred term in the UK with 'shopping centre' and 'shopping arcade' playing second and third fiddle. Arguably the only people in the UK who would refer to shopping centres as malls are North Americans on holiday here! :-)

In Australia, the terms "Shopping Centre" and "Shopping Mall" (or just "Mall"), are used interchangeably to refer to medium or large-size complexes, both open or enclosed. They would normally contain at least two major grocery chain outlets, at least two liquor outlets, at least one mid-range department store (K-Mart, Big W, Target, etc), and a number of smaller specialty stores. These centres will also usually contain a "food court" where patrons can purchase and consume a meal. A smaller version would usually be referred to as simply a "Shopping Centre (single grocery outlet, single liquor store, and perhaps no department store or food court at all), while a larger example (sometimes referred to as a "Super Centre")is usually designated by a specific name. (eg: Charlestown Square, Roselands, Chatswood Chase) The larger examples often contain multiple Department stores and food courts, as well as Medical Centres and Cinema complexes.

Generally, Australians don't hold too much to convention when it comes to referring to these centres. The names with which they are designated (mall, shopping centre, square, etc), are usually designated by the developers, and nobody argues the point after that. MR

I should also note that this is from the outlook of a New South Welshman. People from other states may have different opinions on the matter. MR


 * I can't speak for what word Australians use, so perhaps it's worth splitting out Australian terminology from that of the UK. Matthew 18:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In my understanding, the phrase "shopping mall" normally implies an enclosed or semi-enclosed facility (at least here in the Frozen North), and "shopping center" is a somewhat more general term (that might include, for example, a complex of single-tenant buildings surrounding a central parking lot). "Strip mall" to me implies a very specific form, in which a long multi-tenant building runs parallel to a highway, and fronts a parking lot which is directly off that highway.

Somewhere in this article should be a mention of Kansas City's Country Club Plaza, which is supposed to be the first of its kind, but I don't have the energy to research it further. 18.24.0.120 03:20, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why do people keep erasing additions to the shopping mall list? Some of these are quite noteworthy, especially Water Tower Place in Chicago.


 * Dunno. Some people might be trying to self-promote by removing some of the competition.  At any rate, I've moved the list to list of shopping malls (where it originated) so it can grow more freely.  &mdash;Mulad 05:56, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)

Someone confused strip malls with shopping centers
It looks like someone confused the strip mall with the shopping center in the section on strip malls. I have only seen the term "strip mall" applied to a long rectangular building where all the tenants face a single small parking lot in between the building and the street. The important thing is that they face the street and they can be easily seen from the street. If the building is large enough that it "wraps around" the parking lot, especially to the extent where some tenants face away from the street, it is a shopping center and not a strip mall. If the building is fully enclosed and all or almost all the tenants face an enclosed interior walkway, then the building is a shopping mall. At least those are the usages I have seen in my travels throughout the western United States. Does anyone have any objections? If there are alternative definitions in use elsewhere, we need to note where and rewrite the article accordingly. --Coolcaesar 19:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Super-regional Malls

 * "Super-regional malls are usually shopping centers with over 1 million square feet of retail space and serves as the dominant shopping venue for the region that it serves."

I don't see how this could be true. I live near several very large malls and none of them dominate the shopping in their areas. A super-size mall attracts people from a large area but it doesn't dominate any part of that area, except maybe the few blocks around itself.


 * Well, when we say "dominate", I believe that it more refers to in that people don't come to the area for all the facilities that have popped up around the mall. For instance, Potomac Mills has a huge amount of shopping centers and facilities all around it, but I'd say that people from far and away don't go to Woodbridge with the main intention of going to these outlying shopping centers.  They travel to go to Potomac Mills itself.  That's the "dominate" in it, as I see it.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

strip malls
i always thought of strip malls as distinct from shopping malls. anyway, there's enough info here to warrant a seperate page. anyone agree? (thought- i just saw the Outlet mall page. is this considered seperate from a strip mall? they look the same to me.) Joeyramoney 04:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that strip malls are distinct and should have their own article. I believe that outlet malls are distinct from both strip malls and shopping malls because (1) many outlet centers are built as full-size shopping centers rather than just one long building or "strip" as in the conventional strip mall, and (2) outlet malls generally allow only factory outlets as tenants.  --Coolcaesar 16:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Add to that the fact that some outlet malls are built as fully-enclosed shopping malls, such as Potomac Mills. SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, these ought to be split. --Brandon Dilbeck 05:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Notability guideline being developed
Please see WP:MALL where there is an ongoing attempt to create a guideline for which malls are deserving of articles. Your thoughts are appreciated. Edison 06:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Shopping center", anyone?
In my interactions with the article Shopping mall, I have been dismayed to see that Shopping center redirects here. IMHO, and apparently in the opinion of many other English speakers who have commented, "shopping center" (or "centre") is the broadly applicable term and "shopping mall" is a relatively narrow term that means an indoor enclosed center. I see no evidence that there was discussion before Shopping center was made to be a redirect. Any interest in splitting the article to make Shopping center into a broad article, with Shopping mall being more focused? --orlady 19:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I felt the same way, but assumed that there had already been some form of discussion. If this is not the case, then I would definitely support the splitting of the article in two.  Shopping Centers can take on many different forms, while as shopping malls have a very limited definition and are generally a large type of shopping center.  If anything, Shopping Mall should redirect to Shopping Center, not the other way around as is the current situation.  Perhaps a formal vote could be conducted? -- RedPoptarts 21:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just purged unsourced original research
I just purged the following from the article:


 * However, most states defer to the property rights of mall owners to prevent expressions of political speech. For example, New York state law upheld the arrest of a 61-year-old man in a mall near Albany who refused either to take off his t-shirt, which said "Give Peace a Chance", or to leave. The United States Supreme Court has upheld the aforementioned California law to expand the right of free speech in malls and balance it with the rights of shopping mall owners to utilize their property as they see fit. See also Kaiser Aetna v. United States, 444 U.S. 164 (1979).

This text is unsourced and inappropriate. I have never heard of this alleged "Give Peace a Chance" arrest incident. The line re the USSC is unnecessary (and violates the "take a worldwide view" policy) as these issues are further explored in the Pruneyard Shopping Center article (which I drafted). Finally, the cite to Kaiser Aetna is shockingly inappropriate since that case deals with the extent of navigable waters, not free speech on other persons' private property. In California, a lawyer who cited such an inappropriate case to a court would be sanctioned by the court and then fired (but of course, such an incompetent person would not be able to pass our state's rigorous bar exam to begin with). --Coolcaesar 18:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If you haven't heard of it, you've never heard of google as its the 2nd and 3rd page that comes up using "mall censorship" as a key word. Maybe instead of ripping out a specific event in the article you should have actually spent the minute it takes to actually read about it. 71.86.194.211 05:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The source cited (the Smoking Gun Web site) only supports the assertion that the defendant was charged. That is vastly different from the assertion that "New York state law upheld the arrest."  The only bodies that could authoritatively make a final determination about the meaning of New York state law would be the Appellate Division of the New York Supreme Court or the New York Court of Appeals.  The arrest is so recent that there is no way that case could have been tried to a jury and appealed. And if it was appealed, the correct citation would be to the opinion of the appellate court as published in a reporter like the New York Supplement.
 * What the local authorities charged the defendant with is meaningless, since prosecutors are always overcharging defendants under all kinds of creative theories in hopes of obtaining a plea bargain.
 * Obviously whomever keeps reinserting that passage is not a lawyer! I am purging that improperly sourced and irrelevant nonsense again.  It violates Wikipedia official policies like What Wikipedia is not,  No original research, Neutral point of view, and Verifiability. Take a look at User:Ericsaindon2 to see what happened to the last editor I ran into who failed to conform his edits to those policies. --Coolcaesar 06:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Retail park
I suggest merging retail park with shopping mall. Retail park is completely redundant with shopping mall, so we might as well merge. Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it be better to merge retail park with strip mall? These seem more related, and are both mentioned in the same paragraph within the shopping mall article. Adavidb 17:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oooh, good point. I forgot that we'd split that one out...  SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I also support the idea that retail park is just another name for a strip mall. It would be a better merge that to merge retail park with shopping mall.

Afil 03:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur. Retail park appears to be much closer to strip mall than shopping mall. --Coolcaesar 13:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I moved the merge template tag to Strip mall and reset the tag at Retail park, for any further discussion before an actual merge. --Adavidb 18:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a merge would be a poor decision. The retail park described on here is a very British thing, and merging it into an article which is as American as strip mall (I'm an educated Brit who understands American wordings, but a not so informed Brit wouldn't have a clue what the strip mall page was talking about) would either make the article a bit of a mess (yo-yoing between American and British terms), or effectively remove 'Retail Park' from Wikipedia. NeilSenna 01:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As I noted below, "Shopping center" redirects here. This results in an effort to include all types of shopping centers in the "Shopping mall" article. If "shopping center(centre)" is a generic term common to most or all English speakers, the general article should have that name, not "Shopping mall."--orlady 02:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Classes of Malls
The figures in this entire section refer to only one source, International Council of Shopping Centers. Not only are these numbers typically american-centric, there is no way to tell if these are numbers that people would universally agree upon or if they are only those that a few people hold to. Mathmo Talk 21:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the ICSC is the only body for the shopping center industry of international scope. So its system of classification is better than nothing in my opinion. --Coolcaesar 23:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but that does mean the section needs to be reworded to make this very clear so that it doesn't mislead people. Mathmo Talk 02:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * (edited) The figures are given in square feet and in square meters, the latter unit being rarely used in the US. It is the "International" organization that set the standards, not a "U.S." organization. In the 1999 version (listed as a ref) the definitions and size ranges are not restricted to the US. In the latest version, published 2004 by the ICSC (and claimed to be still current) they are listed as US standards. But that leaves us with no standard for outside the US for terminology. Medium sized centers in another country have been reverted from "regional shopping center" (based on the definitions which are still in this article, and which are not stated in this article to be for only the US) to "major shopping center" ,  .  Is it to be up to the opinions of individual editors, or is there some other industry group which has defined "major shopping center" versus other types for various countries? One could quote directly from a reference which characterizes a center, I suppose, if such an article could be found were a reliable and independent source calls a center "the largest in the country" or "the dominate shopping venue of the region" and ignore any objective classifications.  Edison 03:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, if anyone has bothered to read the standards from ICSC, these only apply to classification of malls in the US, and there is a separate document for Pan-European malls. Outside of these areas, these standards are not designed to apply. Read WP:CSB Thewinchester (talk) 03:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So do you think it is ok to make up any superlative term to characterize a mall outside the US and Europe, or should it be restricted to terminology which can be sourced to a reliable and independent source? This does not seem to be a case of systematic bias unless the bias is calling something by more extravagant terms in one's own country than would apply in other countries. Edison 03:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you read the above comments? There's no opposition to the terms, just opposition to using a method of classification on articles to which are not subject of the classification mechanism you're seeking to implement. The classification system used in my neck of the woods is this document from the state government's planning authority, and all articles in my neck of the wood have been correctly classified. I'd suggest you step back and learn more about the subject matter before going any further. Thewinchester (talk) 06:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is insulting and nonproductive for you to keep implying that I had not read the references or your comments,when clearly I did. Do you have access to the book you cited, "Retail shopping policy 1982 / The Metropolitan Region Planning Authority. Published Perth [W.A.] : The Authority, 1982?" Does it actually provide terminology for shopping malls of different sizes or characteristics which call for one of a size which would be "regional" in the US by ICSC to be called "major" in Western Australia? If the book says things useful in classifying shopping centers, or has a table similar to those by ICSC for the US and for Europe, then please edit this article and add the classifications. Otherwise what is the point of your citing the 1982 book? It appears to be a book available for local checkout at your state library in Western Australia, not something that most of us could access. I will take on editing of this article to clarify that the regional and superregional classifications were amended by ICSC in 2004 to apply to the US, whereas the 1999 classifications which were in no such way limited. Edison 16:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Lake View Store
Seems the section on "Lake View Store" is sufficient to become Lake View Store. Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree; there appear to be plenty of sources to support the information as verifiable and notable. &mdash;Adavidb 03:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed; It also needs to be wikified. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 11:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I added some wikilinks to the section. &mdash;Adavidb 04:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

"Shopping Mall" in Australia
Where the article discusses Brittish usage, it mentions that "Mall is generally used in North America and Australasia to refer to a large shopping area...", I don't believe this is correct, at least in Australia. We use Shopping centre to refer to a collection of shops in and a Mall is generally a blocked off street, open air, full of shops. Notable examples off the top of my head are Bourke St Mall, Rundle Mall & Hargraves Mall; all of those are in fact named after the street they cut off. Although through American pop-culture referneces, some people do use Mall for a Shopping centre, but this is by no means common. MrMabs (talk) 21:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Cleaned up the pictures
I don't know how many noticed, but we had too many pictures in the article - it made the overall presentation look a bit crowded. Thus I've thinned out the crowding a bit. I cleared all the pictures, and re-added pictures from Commons. Some pictures were retained, but most are new to the article. This new placement cleans out the clutter, and puts a reasonable amount of space between photos. Let's see how long it can stay neat and tidy like this. SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukiennice how abt that one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.49.159.201 (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Ampa Mall image addition
I've added the image of ampa skywalk as it is one of the most vibrant and modern malls in India.India has always been an epicenter for shopping malls and commercial plazas and its disheartening to see not a single image is based on them.Thats why i had chosen the ampa mall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A.arvind.arasu (talk • contribs) 05:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This article used to have far too many images in it (see above thread), and the images were all cleaned up some time ago and new images were placed. In order to keep the article uncluttered, we need to keep the number of images down to a certain level.  Which image would you propose removing to make way for an Indian mall?  SchuminWeb (Talk) 17:12, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Who was First?
Regarding Southdale, I have to say I grew up in Washington, where I was always told that Seattle's Northgate Mall was the oldest mall in the country. See here where the date of 1950 is given. I wish we could get reliable data....as it is, I think we may need to change the sentence about Southdale to indicate that its status as "first" is disputed. Jwrosenzweig 00:02, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I believe the key is southdale was the first enclosed mall, northgate was enclosed later ... dml 01:57, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * In terms of suburban malls of the sort we now associate with the term shopping mall, the article asserts the suburban Seattle mall Northgate was first, opening in 1950. If that's the best you can come up with then the Park Forest Plaza in the southern suburbs of Chicago has it beat because it opened for business in 1949. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.244.48.194 (talk) 04:45, 19 November 2010‎ (UTC)

I came here because of my school homework, i was gonna find some facts about malls. And thank you, wiki, i found what i needed. Quia veni, et vidi, et obtinuit sex (latin)/ 私は6を持って、私が見た、来た (japanese). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.166.253.246 (talk) 20:04, 21 October 2014‎ (UTC)

Hi, just a thought - I came to wikipedia looking for a definition of strip mall as opposed to shopping mall... it's fairly obvious now I think about it, and the more modern UK phrase would be a "retail park".

On a related note, strip mall doesn't return a search on the wikipedia page - I'd look up how to implement a link but I've had a couple of beers and don't want to make too many changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.252.224.10 (talk) 21:07, 1 April 2004‎ (UTC)

I think it would be great if we could come to some sort of conclusion as to how the many shops under one roof are called (maybe differently in various parts of the world, but we could make a note of that, couldn't we?).

Meanwhile, the usual, rather boring signs of capitalism in this field&mdash;to build even bigger, better malls&mdash;has already led to various people and places claiming they've got the biggest shopping centre, mall, whatever. I've just come across one of them, the Shopping City Süd near Vienna, Austria (see my comments). For me it's a horrifying vision to go through the List of shopping malls and find, say, 13 different largest outlets. What can we do about that? Are there any official international statistics? What is counted? Space? Number of employees? Customers/Visitors?  21:55, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

---

There standards should and do (consult the NEH book on mall design, seriously it is great) the distinctions that are important are between introverted and extroverted malls, and if the mall includes an arcade. Northgate was extroverted, and introverted later. The Center is not an arcade. Valley Fair Center is none of the above. Espc in the context of Gruen's work on retail design, these simply are non-starters. Gruen was deeply offended by parking in front of his structures (consult his biography on this or the gladwell article on gruen) and the paragraph makes it seem like these would be great examples of his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.38.221 (talk) 04:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

---

I belive the Article "Shopping Mall" needs a "Controversy" sub-article added. I have found some related information in the "Urban Sprawl" Article ("Strip Malls" and "Shopping Malls" subarticles) from which there is a link leading to this "Shopping Mall" main Article. I suggest adding a link here as well, that will take to the "Urban Sprawl" main Article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.36.185 (talk) 19:20, 11 June 2012 (UTC) 78.131.36.185 (talk) 19:23, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Globalize
The section "Early examples" is almost entirely US-centric, completely ignoring the previous summary information about the early history from the 10th - 19th centuries.

I would suggest merging the info, or changing the title of that particular sub-section. The early examples of something between 10th and 21st century are not between 1890 and 2000 as that section title currently states. Perhaps "Early examples" (10th-18th century), "Later developments" (18th-1940), and "Modern" (1941-current).

I suggest this as per "The suburban shopping center concept evolved further in the United States after World War II."

Secondly I find it strange that the sub-section "Largest examples" is included under the "History" section - what has the largest got to do with the history of malls? Surely there should be a separate section for this kind of fact/trivia? Chaosdruid (talk) 22:22, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

History
What about Trajan's market in Rome? From Wikipedia: "Thought to be the world's oldest shopping mall ... the shops and apartments were built in a multi-level structure, and it is still possible to visit several of the levels. Highlights include delicate marble floors and the remains of a library ... Trajan's Market was probably built in 100-110 AD by Apollodorus of Damascus" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.153.120.90 (talk) 16:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Spelling
To comply with WP:ENGVAR (specifically WP:CONSISTENCY), I have converted the spelling of terms in this article to American English. While this article covers both American and British aspects, the important point of the guideline here is that words be spelled consistently within the same article, i.e. one has to be chosen over the other. Specific spellings related to locality should be retained only if they constitute proper names or quotations. I chose the American spelling because it was already somewhat more frequently used. If consensus determines that the article should follow British spelling, then that should be the case. But please remember that it should be applied consistently to the entire article. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

"Center" vs. "Centre"
Considering we've had a minor flap over spelling, it seems we have something to discuss. I don't care one way or the other which spelling - British or American - that ends up getting used. But right now, the spelling choice is thoroughly muddled, as "center" and "centre" are used about equally in the article. For consistency, we probably should go all one way or all the other, but we need to figure out which way to go. SchuminWeb (Talk) 21:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The general rule I use is: Use whichever spelling dominates in the English dialect spoken in the region in which the article subject originates, or, if there is no dialect, use British English. If it is in the US, words should be center, color, organize, program, etc. If it is located elsewhere, such as Canada, the UK, Australia, or Argentina, use the other spellings; centre, colour, organise, programme, etc.


 * The article for Abasto de Buenos Aires spells the word centre, which is why I reverted the change. Buenos Aires, being a Spanish-language city, has no native English dialect, so centre is used. If you check that article, you will see centre appears twice, and center does not appear at all. If that mall was located in the United States, I would have left the change alone. For this article, anything referring to something in the US should use an American spelling, while all other spellings should be International. However, considering it is such a minute thing that most people don't notice, it doesn't really matter. At the very least, links should conform to the articles to which they link, which is why that instance of the word should be -re, and not -er. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 21:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a minor detail, but still, inconsistency is also a bad thing. My main thrust here is that we need to pick a dialect and go with it.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I highly doubt either side is going to change. Americans are way too anal about it and the rest of us have it ingrained in our minds. We're always going to have both versions of those words, there isn't really anything we can do about it. Unless you put in some sort of program that changes all instances of one version to the other, you're going to have to deal with both. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 15:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * WAY beyond what I meant. I was just referring to on this one article.  I didn't mean people in general.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 16:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well you can do it if you want. Don't be surprised if someone else changes it back, though. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 16:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * While there may be argument about the inconsistencies, people who are editing have to remember when it is connected to a specific country, that country's language should be used. It is shopping centre if it is in Britain and shopping center if the mall is situated in the US, for example. 09:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Its interesting to note that in the “Regional differences” section we got both words used correctly, when you're talking about a shopping centers in the USA it would be incorrect using shopping centre, as it would have a totally different connotation but when talking about other parts of the world in many cases it would be appropriate, unless it really is a mall in the american fashion. It's intriguing to see that Galerías Pacífico in Buenos Aires, in the european tradition, is definitely a shopping centre, tought the name Galerías implies Arcade (Galerías→Arcade) but its current owner http://www.galeriaspacifico.com.ar/  have changed it to Shopping Mall, most likely reason; to atract American tourists, and we shouldnt fall for that, cheers Moebiusuibeom-en (talk) 13:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be -re in the article, as the term "shopping centre" rather than "shopping center", is much more prevalent in non-US countries to describe these types of spaces, whereas the US uses "shopping mall" generally as the usual term. Of course, as has been said above, the only time this shouldn't apply here is where a place actually is named using the US spelling variant, hence is a noun. So if you had a sentence in this article, you should use thus, "The largest shopping centre is thought to be in Reno, Nevada, and is called The Biggest Shopping Center Ever, which currently covers a gazillion square miles." – although the term "shopping centre" perhaps might be swapped for shopping mall if that's more consistent with the term being used in the general prose throughout the article for consistency. Jimthing (talk) 17:26, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

How can I pronounciate it?
Is it mool or moul? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.234.227.15 (talk) 16:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's "mahl." 76.99.186.217 (talk) 01:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Mahl" as in "maul". Naaman Brown (talk) 17:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In America it rhymes with "Paul" and everywhere else it rhymes with "pal". Spiderone  10:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this. Pall Mall, London in the UK is pronounced to rhyme with "Pal" because of a historical connection with Paille-maille; The Mall, London is, in spite of the article, pronounced to rhyme with "Pal" or "Paul" more or less equally; and Mall as in "Shopping Mall" (which is extremely uncommon) is generally pronounced to rhyme with "Paul," except by older generations. In my youth in Australia, "Mall" (which is, per the arguments above, also pretty rare) was pretty much universally pronounced to rhyme with "Paul." Davidtmoore (talk) 16:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah agree. In Britain, London's Pall Mall is referred to as pal mal, and uses a different pronunciation to other usages – e.g. when a Brit/Aussie/Kiwi would refer to a Shopping Mall (when referring to a shopping centre this would be very rare, but might be used, say, when talking about the subject in relation to a US-situation, '...I was in New York, and visited the Downtown Mall in Manhattan...'), likely sound would be same as US speaker, maul (as in paul) although an accent difference would still be noticeable of course.
 * Reminds me of the Brit-EN usage of letter E's in some sounds, and its dependance on being a noun or not, making its pronunciation usage different. The noun "Berkeley" (as in Berkeley, California) is pronounced by US and non-US people as BERK-eley, whereas Berkeley Square, London, should be pronounced by US/non-US alike as BARK-eley. However, the non-noun term "clerk" is gonna be clerk for US-speakers, but non-US speakers more prevalent as clark. Confusing for speakers of English as a foreign language, ain't it! But then this is common across many language forms. ...don't get me started on US pronunciation of Sheikh (sheek) vs. non-US inc. Arabic speakers (shayk), lol! ;-) Jimthing (talk) 18:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Mall
It seems strange that this article insists on suggesting that a shopping mall is anything other than recent history, indeed the etymology seems to develop shopping mall in very recent times, more recent than I suspect most would assume.

For example I cannot find anything that refers to "mall" prior to the 1960s as meaning anything other than a tree lined walk, with the exception of pall-mall which is taken supposedly from the game. OED online Most reliable info I can see gives the latest shopping "mall" definition as being from the 1960s. Indeed the article itself says "One of the earliest examples includes the Valley Fair Shopping Center in Appleton WI which opened in March 1955", which shows that the phrase "shopping center" was still in general use at that point.

Merriam Webster even go as far as to state that the phrase was first used in 1959: MW single word def. and MW phrase def.

The Online Etymology Dictionary gives it as a 1960s phrase: "Modern sense of 'enclosed shopping gallery' is from 1963" Chaosdruid (talk) 22:45, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, as this modern photo from Scotland illustrates, the term "arcade" was preferred in past centuries for similar structures serving the same purposes. Ought the article detail the changes of terminology? Jim.henderson (talk) 02:44, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, the more recent shopping "mall" is quite different from the "arcade". Contemporary "malls" are architecturally undistinguished, for example, whereas many famous arcades are architecturally significant. The distinction needs to be upheld and the words disaggregated. For encyclopedic value - historically, linguistically and architecturally, there ought to be a separate article on shopping arcades. Whiteghost.ink (talk) 02:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

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Abolish the word 'mall'
People using senseless words should not be followed. It is a shopping or commercial centre, not 'mall'. The entry should re-direct to shopping centre and not shopping centre re-direct to 'mall' MB 206.28.42.242 (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Your stand might have more strength if you had some reliable sources to back it up. Wikipedia isn't to take sides, but I do think "mall" is more commonly used overall, whether it's 'right' or not. —ADavidB 12:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Concur with Adavidb. Also, you need to travel and get out a lot more. Once you've visited six continents (as I have) then you will realize that mall is far more common. Wikipedia policy on naming articles is to follow the more common usage. --Coolcaesar (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "Mall" seems to be only a relatively recent American term for a place where undertaking a very long-standing and necessary activity - marketing for essential food items - which is not the same as modern shopping for uneccessary items. Such shopping as is done in malls is also also relatively recent activity. General shopping began in association with marketing in marketplaces. The Americans seem to have invented the new term "mall" when the purpose-built, permanent, protective structures for shopping (such as halls, centres and arcades etc) that were built in Europe, spread to the U.S. and began to be constructed there on an ever-increasing scale. Hence "mall" is only a narrow and recent term for one type of place where this ancient activity happens. Since the article needs to reflect that context, I agree with MB.  Whiteghost.ink (talk) 22:28, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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an arcade is or is not a mall
I'm not sure what this sentence means: ". A shopping arcade is a specific type of shopping precinct which is usually distinguished in English for mall shopping by the fact that connecting walkways are not owned by a single proprietor and are in open air." What is 'distinguished...for'? Should it be 'from' instead of 'for'? Or is 'distinguished' the confusing word? it is unclear if arcade is a type of mall or a different kind of shopping precinct.Kdammers (talk) 02:18, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Online shopping
The influence of online shopping is discussed in the section on new trends, but it is missing from the section on dead and dying malls, where one might expect it, given media comments on online shopping's influence (The Shopping Malls Really Are Being Killed By Online Shopping at https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/01/04/the-shopping-malls-really-are-being-killed-by-online-shopping/#567075686fbb; http://www.businessinsider.com/dying-shopping-malls-are-wreaking-havoc-on-suburban-america-2017-2). Kdammers (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Dating issue
"In the mid-20th century, with the rise of the suburb and automobile culture in the United States, a new style of shopping center was created away from downtown.[12] Early shopping centers designed for the automobile include Market Square, Lake Forest, Illinois (1916), and Country Club Plaza, Kansas City, Missouri (1924)." The years 1916 and 1924 are in no way within the mid-0th century. We should either change the first sentence to give the idea that mall building accelerated (not started) then, or we should remove the mid ref." Kdammers (talk) 02:34, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Sears Canada
Removed the random reference to Sears Canada closing from the "Dead Mall" section. It's only one of many mall-based retailers to close, and its relevance to the "Dead Mall" section is dubious because many malls that had Sears stores are in the process of redeveloping the now-empty space or plan to. A section on mall-based retailers closing might be where this can be included along with Target Canada, Woodwards, and the many US companies. 136.159.160.8 (talk) 19:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 25 June 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Complicated. The move got muddied by a bunch of people, in flagrant disregard of WP:RETAIN, suggesting a British respelling. Ignoring those comments, it seems that there is no consensus that "shopping center" is an adequate title for an article on shopping malls. A split seems like the best option. Red  Slash  18:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Shopping mall → Shopping center – Shopping center is a more generic word for different kinds such as a lifestyle center, power center, neighborhood center, or a mall. A mall is specifically a center - usually indoor but in any case with access to stores off pedestrian halls or walkways - anchored by traditional department stores, one that is increasingly disappearing in favor of other configurations. It is also specifically North American, whereas "shopping center" (other than the center/centre spelling difference), covers the usage in the UK, Australia, and other English-speaking countries. This page should be titled shopping center, covering all the variants, and quite possibly someone (I'd be happy to) could start a new shopping mall page to cover the specific shopping center type called a "mall". Keizers (talk) 22:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support moved to Shopping centre "Centre" is preferred spelling in all other English spelling outside the United States, having named as Shopping center is problematic, US-centric spelling bias, so it need to change title to "Shopping centre", while it same as Shopping center, it contains more neutral English spelling. 36.77.95.231 (talk) 06:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC) — 36.77.95.231 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Oppose - I don't think there is support for the idea that these are the same thing. Shopping malls are largely inward-facing (the main entrances to the shops within are on the indoors), "shopping centers" have stores that open to the outdoors. Neighborhood shopping center might be better named simply shopping center, but that should be a separate RM. -- Netoholic @ 06:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that shopping center covers a lot of different meanings, including open air and indoor centers, as well as variants such as lifestyle centers, neighborhood centers anchored only by a supermarket, etc. This article is about all those different types of centers. I want to rename THIS article to shopping center and create a new article specifically about "shopping malls" - a North American term, anchored by traditional department stores (like Macy's or Penney's) and usually indoor. If you agree with me, perhaps you could revise your vote/comment.Keizers (talk) 14:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This article has always been written in American English, and that should be WP:RETAINed, but the current title "shopping mall" is a WP:COMMONALITY which resolves the center/centre spelling problem. -- Netoholic @ 12:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support move to Shopping centre I can't comment on factual differences (or not) between a mall and a centre, as detailed by OP, but I agree that 'mall' is a mostly North American term, whereas 'centre' (and preferably spelled like that, but either way covering both spellings with a redirect) is a more universal one. I don't know if a new article is needed for 'shopping mall', or whether that could be covered with a section in the article, plus a redirect from 'shopping mall', obvs. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sir/madam I don't mean to be contentious, I am American and an Anglophile, but it seems that there are about 234 out of 336 million native speakers live in the U.S. - are there general Wikipedia principles applied to the spelling of entries that are global in nature?Keizers (talk) 14:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi :) — Regarding the centre/center choice, I don't know what if any policies there are that determine that. But FWIW, Wiktionary says that centre is the standard spelling in British, Canadian, Irish, South African, Australian and New Zealand English, and also (I'm guessing here; I don't know this for a fact) in much of the ex-British colonies and spheres of influence. Personally, I'm not fussed either way, as long as the usual redirects are in place to get the visitor to where they want to go, regardless of how they spell the word. The main point, per your OP, is whether to move the article from 'mall' to 'cent**', and that I do support. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:23, 26 June 2020 (UTC) (he/him)


 * Support moved to Shopping centre because I agree that "mall" is a mostly North American term regarding this thing. I support for moving to Shopping center but with spelling as centre, which more preferred as universal term. But for me, both Center and Centre are corrected term to described that depending on geographical area (US vs UK) 114.125.245.37 (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC) — 114.125.245.37 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Sir/madam I don't mean to be contentious, I am American and an Anglophile, but it seems that there are about 235 out of 336 million native speakers live in the U.S. - are there general Wikipedia principles applied to the spelling of entries that are global in nature?Keizers (talk) 14:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:TITLEVAR, which plainly states "American English spelling should not be respelled to British English spelling, and vice versa."  Calidum   14:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sir/madam, the debate is whether the article should be renamed "shopping center", whether with a British or American spelling is another discussion. If you support the move FROM the title shopping mall,, your vote would be Support. If so, please consider editing or deleting your comment.Keizers (talk) 14:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * My position is clear. The current title uses an American English term and you have explicitly said we should use a different term because it is used outside of America. Thus, WP:TITLEVAR is applicable. And please stop WP:BADGERING.  Calidum   17:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I don't argue that Americans don't use the term "shopping center". We do, very much so, and now more than ever, since malls are closing and malls are places many of us rarely go anymore. "Shopping center" is a generic term that could cover an open-air center, or an enclosed one (so, in that case a synonym for a mall); it can also be a neighborhood shopping center anchored by a supermarket or drugstore; a strip mall, a lifestyle center, even a power center anchored by big box stores is still a kind of shopping center. I believe the bones of this article allow it to be precisely that overarching generic article, entitled Shopping center or Shopping centre, whichever is the better spelling for an entity which is global in usage, including the United States. Some of the more detailed information about malls (enclosed centers) can be removed and a new article created about the shopping mall. That's my opinion and what I meant to propose. Sorry if this appears to be more badgering, my idea is to clarify my intent.Keizers (talk) 04:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's ok. Like I said below, I'm open to having two separate articles. But this mostly relates to malls, so I think the new article should focus on shopping centers.  Calidum   05:52, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator suggested. But with "Shopping Centre" preferred instead "shopping center" because is universal. 182.1.58.176 (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC) — 182.1.58.176 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * I am American and an Anglophile, but it seems that there are about 235 out of 336 million native speakers live in the U.S. - are there general Wikipedia principles applied to the spelling of entries that are global in nature, to favor the Commonwealth spelling?Keizers (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment The enclosed shopping mall should have it's own "Shopping mall" article - it's a fairly unique (and probably dying, in the US anyway) type of establishment. Maybe move the stuff relevant to this variety of establishment to it's own article, then include a subsection in a broader "Shopping center/centre" article, linking to the main article (as is done for other varieties in the existing article). -- Versa geek  18:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I likewise think there should be a separate article on what we Americans call shopping centers. This article, however, primarily covers what we call malls so the other content should go to a new article.  Calidum   19:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree but as per my previous comment I would suggest that it be the other way around, that this article form the base of shopping center and we create a new one for shopping mall with the peculiarities of the enclosed mall - in the US a dying format but now beloved across Asia and Latin America...Keizers (talk) 04:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support exactly as proposed by User:Keizers. Move to "shopping center" as the broader term, then create a separate article specifically focused on the predominantly enclosed North American shopping mall. I have been frustrated for many years over how the shopping mall article is a mess, but haven't been able to set aside the time, energy, or interest to clean it up.  I am delighted to see that User:Keizers shares my concerns.  Shopping malls and shopping centers are such important places in terms of the amount of time that people spend at them and the amount of money that changes hands in them that Wikipedia ought to explain them properly. --Coolcaesar (talk) 22:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Move to Shopping centre for others suggested as it is cover shopping centers around the world, not just in North America. 114.125.248.157 (talk) 23:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC) — 114.125.248.157 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * As a universal generic term, there is no particular reason to use British spelling, as the term "shopping center" is in common use in the U.S. (a mall is a TYPE of shopping center, to Americans). The article is already U.S. spelling throughout and WP:TITLEVAR would have the title match the spelling (US vs UK/other) used in the article. UK/commonwealth spelling is used by far more countries, but US spelling is used by twice as many native speakers.Keizers (talk) 04:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose The article is mostly about the enclosed space for shopping known as a "mall". A new article for the much more generalized term "shopping center" might be needed to be created. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support move to Shopping centre --Melsj (talk) 00:38, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as proposed. The article currently uses American spelling, so per Wikipedia policy the article should not be changed over to a different English spelling. As for the votes for moving it to the "centre" spelling, I will just say that it looks suspicious how so many of those votes are from IP addresses. Rreagan007 (talk) 14:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support and retain original spelling title. The article currently uses American spelling, so the new title is "Shooping center". Majority of users and IP address also supported move, but they instead as "Shopping centre" with different English spelling (British, Canadian, Australian, etc). This title also needs to retain the original American spelling per MOS:RETAIN and not need to respelled it to Commonwealth spelling "centre". 180.242.5.183 (talk) 23:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Split into Shopping center and Shopping mall
As per the discussions in the two sections above, I have made Shopping center the article about shopping centers of all kinds and Shopping mall retains only the content relevant to malls in particular. (A mall is a type of shopping center, which can also be a strip mall, retail park, power center, lifestyle center, arcade, precinct etc.)Keizers (talk) 14:41, 3 July 2020 (UTC)