Talk:Show jumping horse killings

I have created the article ont he horse murders all help wil be appreciated

 * I personall feel that the horse articl needs to be created quickly. Remember, it doesnt have to be prefect the moment it is created; this is a claborative effort an we will all pull together to get it from its original status to being a FA in less than three months, if we put the hrad work and effort into it. Smith Jones (talk) 01:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Horse murders article speedily redirected in a completely inept and meaningless way
About an hour ago i started placing requests on the talk pages of various prolific horse, and particularly show jumping editors asking for help in creating a horse murders page, per the discussion here betwen AdamKesher and myself.

I then came here to see that Smith Jones had already created a rudimentary horse murders page. It contained no sources, and was limited to discussion only of the James Druck portion of the horse killing scandal.

I feared that the Smith Jones horse murders page would be put on speedy deletion, because, frankly, it was pretty rudimentary and unsourced, so i heaved a big sigh and decided to forego my evening's plans (watching an old movie and relaxing) and devote the next four to six hours to wriiting a proper article on the subject -- but by the time i got back to this page, i found that the horse murders article now redircts to the Rielle Hunter article -- which is totaly bogus. Please, can someone set this right?

I will write a properly sourced horse murders framework story tonight -- IF THERE IS SOMEPLACE TO WRITE IT.

I don't have a lot of time for this kind of silliness with redirects and creations and deletions. Please, someone sraighten this out. I am going to go make myself a cup of tea, calm down, and log on again. I sure hope there'll be a page there to write for, because, frankly. i don't know beans about wiki procedures for creation, deletion, or redirects, and it is WRONG to make willing, professional, eager-to-please volunteers jump hurdles like this.

We have five GREAT sources for the horse murders article now (Sports Illustrated, Hot Blood, ESPN, and two NYT articles from the 1990s. Please, help this happen and don't impede it.

catherine (getting kinda ticked off here) yronwode Catherineyronwode (talk) 03:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, it's up again. I will move over there and try to make sense of it. Sheesh. cat Catherineyronwode (talk) 04:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * COULD YOU GUYS PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MINDS?? I creat ethe horse article, then it gets tagged and i get acused of being a troll and a vandal (not on my OWN talkpage, mind you, but sneakily on someone elses talk page). Then I get told that despite the fact that i have a refernece link including FIVE reliable sources, somehow this means that my article is unsourced, and I get told that this event was not notable enough to belong on its own article, so I redirect it to Rielle Hunter assuming that i was only following a reocmendation by an editor offered in a good faith, and the MINUTE I do that all of a sudden people are parading up and down on talk pages and user pages prclaiming that I am a troll that my edits are all in bad faith and that my archives need to be "investigated".
 * Well, GO AHEAD. I've reverted my redirect and I would like to PLEASE ask that you people TRY to behave with even a slight bit of good faith. I understand that sometimes its stresful working with people who dont understand what your doing, but that is no reason to AUTOMATICALLY assume trolling and evil intentions over a simple mistake. No wonder people sometimes mischaracterize WIkipedia editors as being overly pedantic and quick to call out vandalism and trolling; on a few occasions, that does happen!!! I'm sorry if I sound as if im lsoing my patience, but I really am tired of having every single edit that I make treated as if it was some horrible trolling spamming campaign Smith Jones (talk) 04:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I contritely apologize for assuming bad faith. I think you probably did mean well, but you should have waited until we had some basic text together before slam-creating the page. You have left me with a load of work to do in order to keep the page from speedy deletion, and i am now on my THIRD cup of tea and the end is still not in sight, although it is past midnight. Grumpily, but still apologetic for my outburst of temper, which was entirely unacceptable, cat yronwode 64.142.90.33 (talk) 08:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Four more friggin hours later, the horse murders page is finally online in a hopefully useful form that will not result in a speedy deletion or an AfD. I am physically wiped out from having to do this, and i hope that Smith Jones realizes how painful this has been for me. If he had simply waited a bit, creating a multi-authored sandbox page, and placing it online after we had all vetted it, this could have been avoided. As it is, it is still an article in need of editing -- but i am done. I have to crash now -- and get up in four hours to go to work. My rooster is crowing and i'm seeing spots before my eyes, i'm so tired. Good night. catherine yronwode a.k.a. "64" [[Special:Contributions/64.142.90.


 * Thanks for te aplogy. What would have ben nice is if any of this has been mentioend to me or anywhere before I had create the page. Its kind of hard for me to know what other users are planning unless they tel me since unfortunately i lack the power to see inoto peoples minds. I apologize is this has caused you any distress but i really think that you shouldnt let WIkipedia affect your health Smith Jones (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Notability/Reliability
I've tagged this article for two major content problems. First, notability (WP:NOTE):


 * If notability is established strictly by virtue of its connection with the celebrity status of Rielle Hunter, then any content that is appropriate under WP:DUE should be merged into that article.


 * The content is not encyclopedic. Except for the Hunter connection, it would be a simple case of alleged insurance fraud from two

Second, neutral point of view WP:NPOV.


 * The only sources are only quoting allegations that have never been substantiated.


 * The article as written has a strongly negative tone about Druck, despite the use of weasel words (WP:WEASEL).


 * The title is too vague and non-descriptive of the content. (Perhaps "Horse Murders (James Druck)"?)

I haven't listed this as an AfD yet, because the article has just been created and I want the editors to have the opportunity to defend their decision. If Druck himself were still alive, we'd almost certainly have to put this up for deletion immediately as a BLP violation. As of right now, my feeling is that while these allegations are notable in the context of Rielle Hunter's biography, they are not sufficiently notable to justify having their own page.

Wellspring (talk) 03:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Notability issues seem to have been resolved. Article seems much more neutral in tone now. Wellspring (talk) 00:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Working on improving the article

 * Thank you for not speedy deleting this article. It was created prematurely by a well-intentioned but not terribly skilled editor who had a less than optimal understanding of the breadth of the story. I have now spent a number of hours on it and i feel that, while not yet finished, it is in good enough shape for me to remove the NPOV tag and the NOTE tag. As you can see now, it has links to more than insurance fraud, as it involved the murder of Helen Brach and -- as i will demonstrate later, after i get some sleep -- it resulted in a severe shake-up in the era's top jumping horse association, and the permanent black-listing of many famous equestrians. Getting all of that information lined up is going to be difficult for me to do tonight, as i am not a horse person (although i once owned a great old Percheron logging horse named Omie Wise, who was a wonderful companion back in the 1970s). I am trying to get editors from the show jumper and equestrian sports areas of Wikipedia to come here and improve the page. Let's see if that happens, okay? Give me a few days, please. I'd appreciate it greatly. cat yronwode 64.142.90.33 (talk) 09:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, now i really am done for the night. It's almost daylight. Please be kind when making edits. Portions that need enhancement are those that deal with the Brach murder and with the horse-killing activities of Richard Bailey. catherine yronwode a.k.a. "64" 64.142.90.33 (talk) 12:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm back again this morning, with several hours work under my belt, and the only comment so far is GRBerry's negative review on Cla68's talk page that this article is "unbalanced due to incompleteness and hasty creation" [which can be found here] That's a pretty discouraging asessement of my 12 hours of dedicated effort. Perhaps GRBerry would like to help improve the article; he is certainly free to do so, because this is Wikipedia TM, the fun-for-all game where every writer can be demoted to the title of mere "editor" and every article can be slammed by a smug administrator with no time to help, but plenty of time to find fault. catherine yronwode a.k.a. "64" 64.142.90.33 (talk) 21:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, that was an echo in my own words of your assessment of the article that you posted over at Talk:Rielle Hunter. GRBerry 00:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

name change???

 * the scope of this article sems to extend slight beyond the scope of simpl the horse urders. I think that maybe it might be a good ide ato change the aritlces name to Horse murders scandal so that hte title cna more accurately convey the fact that the artilce itself covers not only the horse murders but the mruder of Helen Brach, the insurance fraud aspect, as wejll as the investigation and fall out within the horse training "world" so to speak. Smith Jones (talk) 21:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Edits
Per the repeated requests to wikiproject equine members to weigh in, I took a quick look and did a little wordsmithing and wikilinking. I didn't deal with any content issues because there are those of you actively editing who are discussing these issues and I want to stay out of all that. There is some material that was repeated in several different places and I tossed the most obvious bits, but rest assured that I didn't actually remove content -- just the third or fourth time the same thing was repeated. Overall, I didn't do a real deep edit, just rounded off a few rough edges, hope it helped. Good luck with future improvements to the article. By the way, read WP:CITE and note that when you have the same article, you don't have to do the whole footnote over and over again; there is a way to abbreviate it after the first use. Also, don't overdo the hyphens. break it up with more commas, periods, semicolons, etc. Also remember that punctuation goes BEFORE, not after, footnotes. Montanabw (talk) 07:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed a lot of those issues-- 1/4 of the kilobytes of the article were just repeating citations over and over when the ref format is fine.--Gloriamarie (talk) 19:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Please be specific about the underage situation.
Under "Drucks' Henry the Hawk", I find:

Henry the Hawk was a show horse owned and ridden by 17-year-old Lisa Druck, now known as Rielle Hunter. Because she was underage (born June 6), ...

All I see is "born June 6" w/r to being underage. Please be more specific. Also, in Rielle Hunter's Wikipedia entry, I am seeing March 20 for birthday.

Remove from category "Equestrian Sports"
I feel that this article is very important and is somewhat related to the horse industry, but not the horse sport itself, therefore I suggest that this article should not be listed in the category of Equestrian Sports. It might be good to have a category named Horse Industry or Equine/Equestrian Industry. Amrbc (talk) 08:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Horse "murders"?
Since when is the killing --- unlawful or not --- of a horse considered to be "murder"? Murder is a legally-defined criminal act, and never applies to the killing of an animal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:155:100:E468:A566:B126:3D10:1549 (talk) 03:42, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Title
Hi All, it seems that several people are of the opinion that the article name should be called something other than Horse murders. I think their points are valid and maybe the name should be changed to 'Show jumping horse killings'. If anyone agrees or disagrees please comment before I move the page. Pyeongchang (talk) 10:12, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't see this post before the name was changed. There are two types of show horses: jumpers and hunters. There is no reason to think that the killings were limited to show jumpers. It would have been better to simply call them show horses. Bootboy41 (talk) 10:39, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Bootboy41, the majority of article text and references refer to Show Jumping but if evidence of 'hunters' is added then I am sure a further name change would be considered by editors. Thanks Pyeongchang (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Why do people kill horses 144.48.16.52 (talk) 01:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)