Talk:Shriketit

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 04:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Crested Shrike-tit → Crested Shriketit – Move to the IOC name. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC) Snowman (talk) 11:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, Crested Shrike - tit is the common name used (especially in its native range), IOC has no authority to dictate/force the naming it wants. Bidgee (talk) 12:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no evidence to add, but I would like to echo this sentiment that perhaps the IOC is being taken a bit too seriously. While it makes sense to give some extra weight to specialist academic literature, I think in the case of a few of these guides we tend to go too far. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 19:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * As a country-specific (=only pages from Australia) google search reveals, there are literally thousands of Australian pages that use Crested Shrike-tit and literally thousands of Australian pages that use Crested Shriketit. On that basis you can't make a strong argument for either version. IOC isn't non-Australian either, as it has one of the foremost Australian bird authorities as advisor, Dick Schodde. My primary hesitation for the IOC name is that Systematics and Taxonomy of Australian Birds (Christidis and Boles, 2008), arguably THE most important recent publication on nomenclature of Australian birds, uses Crested Shrike-tit. Except when there are recent changes to taxonomy, Australian bird literature at all levels (from pro ornithologists to novice birders) largely follow this book; exactly as was the case for its predecessor from 1994. Additionally, the species in this article is an Australian endemic and the only species with the name shriketit/shrike-tit = whatever is used it won't result in pages of related species with conflicting versions of the name. Otherwise, I would have been in strong opposition to shrike-tit. 62.107.195.2 (talk) 09:35, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "and literally thousands of Australian pages that use Crested Shriketit", not the case. Searching "Crested Shriketit" I get a heap of overseas sites, not one is Australian and "Crested Shrike-tit" you get a mix of Australian and overseas sites (I've listed the reliable one in my above comment). Bidgee (talk) 14:35, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I clearly said "country-specific" search, and yes, thousands of Australian results. Evidently you are just making a normal google search (=all results worldwide) and then manually check links. I doubt you went through all the hundreds of pages to check. You have to use "Advanced Search" in google and choose Australia as the region. In this way you only get results that originate from Australia (=sites that are registered in Australia = almost entirely results by Australians since non-Australians generally do not register their site in Australia). At present, "Crested Shriketit" on Australian sites = 4420 google results (worldwide sites = 11700), but since google always estimates this can wary somewhat when we're in these high numbers. Regardless, thousands. Checking the first three result pages, there are several pages by AU birders (example), AU birding organisations (example) and AU Government organisations (example). Same categories as in your previous list of links. However, as I also noted in my previous comment, you get thousands of Australian results for "Crested Shrike-tit" too. As such, one may argue that the google results cancel each other out. 62.107.239.158 (talk) 22:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one who used Google's search results, nor should it be relied on. The same book on the Territory Stories book search has both spellings, Rob Drummond isn't a bird expert but Graeme Chapman is an expert. FYI, I did use the "Advanced Search" on Google.com.au. Bidgee (talk) 04:06, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:GNUM is an essay–not a policy–that has progressed little since 2010. It certainly raises some very valid points, though most of it is irrelevant to the specific searches I mentioned. WP:GOOGLE isn't a policy either, but it also has some valid points. It is entirely correct that you did not suggest google as a final solution to its name, but neither did I. However, I did show, via google, that Crested Shriketit also is used frequently within its native range, contradiction your first post in this discussion. Furthermore, I never said Rob Drummond was an expert ornithologist. I clearly listed him as an example of AU birders, which matches some of your links, notably Tom Tarrant who runs ABID (your link #10), the blog post by John Gordon (link #13) and the mail by Muriel Brookfield (link #15). All good birders but no more expert ornithologist than Drummond. Brookfield is an authority on agriculture, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. In my very first post I provided an example of a top AU ornithologist (for people that don't know, Dick Schodde = formally Richard Schodde). The nt.gov.au example does indeed exist in both versions, proving my point that both versions are in use in its native range. This double use is something you can see in several articles/books that involve AU Gov. agencies. The most notable probably Australia: State of the Environment 1996, which provided a guideline for much of the later conservation work in the country. There are also major publications involving AU Gov. agencies that only use Shriketit, e.g. the monumental Box-ironbark forests & woodlands investigation 2001 by the Environment Conservation Council, Vic. This was not my primary point. My primary point was to show that both versions are in use at all levels in AU, from birders to pro ornithologists and Gov. agencies. Regardless, I'm still leaning slightly towards Shrike-tit instead of Shriketit. As described in my first post; Christidis & Boles, 2008 + it being an AU endemic w/o similarly named species elsewhere. 62.107.239.158 (talk) 07:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 17:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Crested Shrike-tit → Crested Shriketit – WP Birds have been using IOC names for 2 or 3 years following a consensus decision. Work has continued to enhance the consistency between IOC and Wiki species names for birds. See also WP:CCC. Snowman (talk) 11:12, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Futile complaint: It should be Crested shrike-tit or Crested shriketit, per WP:NCCAPS. --BDD (talk) 17:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I presume that your opinion is because of your preference of lower case letters in bird names; however, the Wiki and many authorities use upper case in bird names. see NCCAPS. Snowman (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should stop doing that, though, since normal written English doesn't capitalize common names of species. And, many authorities, of course, don't either, even for birds.  I would support a move to Crested shriketit. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 20:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Any suggestions move this article to "Crested shriketit" look hypothetical to me especially considering the consensus to use capitalisation by WP Birds and the Wiki guidelines at NCCAPS. Snowman (talk)
 * WP Birds is WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: wikiprojects don't own articles and are not policies/guidelines. The real guideline you link to has a note about it being under dispute: I don't think the consensus you imply about this matter is really there to the extent you indicate.  It's more "no consensus"/"uneasy truce" than it is consensus.  Discussion about it is not hypothetical. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 20:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Support move as proposed.   - WPGA2345 -     ☛   03:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The hyphen appears to be wildly more common in scholarly literature, books, etc (just doing a quick scholar.google.com search, ngrams, etc). I might be doing the searches wrong, but before discussing that, Snowman, is the plan here to just follow IOC no matter what, or does it matter what RS say?  I'm sympathetic to the argument that we should pick a consistent style regardless of styles used by sources, so this isn't necessarily an oppose vote; but I would like to address this issue that was brought up last time you tried to make this move. ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 20:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * See On Hyphens and Phylogeny (2009) by F B GILL, M T Wright, S B Coynne, and R Kirk. The Wilson Journal of Ornithology. pages 649–652. This is quoted on the IOC website and Wiki Project Birds main page. Snowman (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Linking to an article with no summary or explanation is often hard to interpret, but I think I can deduce that your point is essentially that the IOC has a good reason for doing what it does. I don't think anyone ever doubted that; the question is how do we decide to go against usage in reliable sources?  I mean, Wikipedia would never decide to go against RS because a particular convention causes confusion; it's fine for the IOC to do that, but WP wouldn't do that; that should be clear, right?  So, your link can't be a reason for this move.  So we're back to the question, how do we decide between IOC vs. overwhelming majority of RS? ErikHaugen (talk &#124; contribs) 20:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Google search results: "Crested Shrike-tit" = 16,700. "Crested Shriketit" = 9,090. Based on these numbers, to me, it does not seem particularly extraordinary to name this article "Crested Shriketit". Some Wiki articles have kept a non-IOC name by consensus where another name is far more popular that the IOC name; for example "African Grey Parrot" vs "Grey Parrot" and "Blue-fronted Amazon" vs "Turquoise-fronted Amazon". The Wiki can not keep everyone's favourite bird names, because the resulting names will not form in a usable system for the majority of readers from all over the world. Snowman (talk) 21:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Support move to Crested Shriketit per IOC naming convention...Pvmoutside (talk) 00:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Support move as proposed. What's the point of having a naming convention if it is not applied? Maias (talk) 05:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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