Talk:Shudō

Woah there, "Today, Japanese homosexuality closely parallels western practices."?! I'm not sure what Japan and what West this article is talking about, but it doesn't seem to be modern-day Japan and the west of Europe and the Americas... comments, suggestions? Wouldn't this article be fine without this line completely? I don't think it would be appropriate in this article to get into the current dynamics of homosexual relationships in Japan as opposed to the West, but it doesn't have to be compressed to a single (inaccurate) sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orinthe (talk • contribs) 22:26, December 26, 2004


 * Agreed. I have removed the sentence. I would suggest a new article about homosexuality in japan or something along those lines. The sentence is both inaccurate, and unwanted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.234.202.131 (talk)  14:50, January 6, 2005

There are a bunch of things wrong with this article.
1) It was not christian influence that caused the end of nanshoku. Nanshoku ended before the Restoration and came back for a period around 1880-1910. It's odd that this article cites Iwata but goes against his saying that it was not christianity that ended nanshoku. 2) Shudo shouldnt be considered the same as 'homosexuality' due to the connotations of the english word. 3) There's no proof that the term shudo didnt appear earlier and was simply not written down or that documents with it have been destroyed. 4) The entire origins seems to be an uncited copy from speculation of a Japanese scholar from the 1930's called Iwata. There is no real evidence Kukai brought nanshoku over from China. 5) It should be noted that many top schoars in nanshoku study don't agree with Watanabe.

I'll try fixing this page when I have the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.188.68 (talk) 17:56, March 1, 2007

"Tryst between man and youth" japanese picture
In this picture the "youth" is very clearly wearing female-only garb (flowery, pink, inside edge of sleeves open, very long sleeve, female haircut, female obi). I see no evidence that this is in fact supposed to be a male rather than a female. I suggest that it be swapped with an actual depiction of M/b sex in Japanese culture. Sai Emrys  ¿?   ✍  18:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's wearing a ladies' kimono because it's an onnagata. The page on the artist, Miyagawa Isshō has more information. LauraOrganaSolo 00:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, you can see a trace of the shaved portion behind the boy's forelock, indicating that he's a wakashū - JRBrown (talk) 22:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Age?
What was the age structure here I'm wondering? Is it a matter of boys and older men or young men and old men? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 07:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "Shudo, in its pedagogic, martial, and aristocratic aspects, is closely analogous to the ancient Greek tradition of pederasty." BillyTFried (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Generally the boys had to be adolescents, with some exceptions in both directions. Haiduc (talk) 13:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Shudo and homosexuality
On Feb 6 User:Tonalone deleted the references to homosexuality in the lead paragraph. I reverted this change, and then User:Bali_ultimate reverted my revert (all on the same day). [Diff 1], [Diff 2].

Shudo is described in terms of homosexuality in the following academic works (among others):
 * Love of the Samurai: a thousand years of Japanese homosexuality, Tsuneo Watanabe and Junʼichi Iwata, Gay Men's Press, 1989: Discussing the change of indexical homosexual relationships from that of clerics and acolytes to that of samurai and wakashu: "There appeared a homosexuality of a military type comparable to that of the Spartans. This kind of pederasty was called shudō." (page 47)
 * The Great Mirror of Male Love, Ihara Saikaku and Paul Gordon Schalow, Stanford University Press, 1990: In the introduction: "Recreational sex with both female and young male prostitutes was a townsman's perogative if he could afford their fees, and he chose between them without stigma. A cult of sexual connisseurship grew up around each: nyodō, "the way of loving women"; and wakashudō (abbreviated to shudō or jakudō), "the way of loving boys"." (page 1) The work consists mainly of excerpts from medieval Japanese sources on the subject of male homosexual relationships, and the term shudō is used within these sources.
 * Male Colors: The Construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan, Gary P. Leupp, University of California Press, 1997: The introduction gives a list of "euphemisms for male-male sex", including "the "way of youths" (wakashudo or shudo); the "way of men" (nando); "the beautiful way" (bido); and the "secret way" (hido)." (page 1) The term shudo is used throughout this work to decribe male-male sexual relationships and homoerotic art, and the work includes quotes from medieval Japanese sources using it in this sense.
 * Cartographies of desire: male-male sexuality in Japanese discourse, 1600-1950, Gregory M. Pflugfelder, University of California Press, 1999: In a discussion of traditional Japanese vocabulary for homosexual practices: "Another term for male-male eroticism that frequently appears in popular discourse of the era is shudō, which entered into use around the beginning of the Edo period. Nanshoku and shudō shared certain lexical characteristics, and were used in practice almost interchangeably, yet differences of nuance existed as well." (page 26) The term shudo is used throughout this work as well, and it likewise includes quotes from medieval Japanese sources.
 * Queer Japan from the Pacific war to the internet age, Mark J. McLelland, Rowman & Littlefield, 2005: "Same-sex relationships were governed by a code of ethics described as nanshoku (male eroticism) or shudō (the way of youths), in the context of which elite men were able to pursue boys and young men who had not yet undergone their coming-of-age ceremonies, as well as transgender males of all ages from the lower classes who worked as actors and prostitutes" (page 16, citing Pflugfelder and Leupp)

If anyone has evidence that the term shudō was primarily used to describe non-sexual relationships, by all means present it. Hoever the evidence to date is that the term refers primarily or exclusively to male homosexual practices. - JRBrown (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC)