Talk:Siamese Mauser style rifle

Siamese Mauser Type 45/66 Rifle

Move Page Proposal - Rename to Siamese Mauser or Type 46 Siamese Mauser
Based on research, I am proposing the page be retitled "Siamese Mauser" or "Type 46 Siamese Mauser."

The rifles are marked ร,ศ,๑๒๑ (R.S. 121, for 121st year of Chakri Dynasty) which equates to Bhuddist year 2446 (1903). Later, when Siam changed official documentation to use the Bhuddist year for dates, the rifles were referred to as 'type' or 'model' 46 in official records. "Type 45" refers to the 8x50 rimmed cartridge adopted by Siam in the Bhuddist year 2445 (1902). Many incorrectly refer to the rifle as "Type 45" when, in fact, it is a Type 46 rifle using the Type 45 cartridge.

The current page refers to the specific model as originally issued. However, when the Siamese military decided to adopt a spitzer bullet in 1923, they adopted a modified cartridge (8x52 rimmed) identified as the Type 66 cartridge. The sights were milled down slightly for the new trajectory, but the rifle designation on the receiver bridge was not changed. The Type 46/66 rifles should not be confused with the Type 66 rifles which were the Japanese Type 38 rifle chambered for the 8x52 rimmed Siamese Type 66 cartridge ordered by Siam in 1923.

Given the limited sources and detailed information available, I propose the page be re-titled "Siamese Mauser" with separate sections for the Type 46, Type 46/66, and Type 66 rifles. This is consistent with similar pages like the Japanese Type 38 rifle, which includes sections on the Type 44 carbine and Type 97 sniper rifle, and the M1903 Springfield page, which includes information on the M1903 Mark I, M1903-A3, and M1903-A4.

I will also post a note in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Firearms referring to this talk for discussion before the changing the title. TXGRunner (talk) 00:11, 15 April 2018 (UTC)TXGrunner


 * Don't know anything about the rifle, but I wanted to point out that the year R.S. 121 corresponds to B.E. 2445 and 1902 CE (more specifically, April 1902 to March 1903). --Paul_012 (talk) 06:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information. I looked it up on other Wikipedia articles, on various calendar calculators/converters, and I am still showing the conversion as being 2446 and 1903. On the Thai solar calendar page it states "The epoch (reference date) for Year 1 was 6 April 1782 with the accession of Rama I...". Adding 121 yields 1903, although I grant there is overlap because the Thai New Year is in April. Further in the text, 1888 is equated with R.S. 106 (adding 15 to both yields 1903 and R.S. 121 respectively). Finally, in the picture provided of the 2004 calendar, the Thai Buddhist year is 2547 (subtracting 101 yields 1903 and 2446 respectively). When I look at Thai Buddhist calendar coverters DateConverter.net or Calendar-Converter.com 2446 is converted to 1903. I did find one calculator that explained for Thai dates, one year should be subtracted. I think the Buddhist and Christian Era years are definitely 2446 and 1903 respectively as explained in the various sources listed. Given the overlap, as R.S. 121 covers part of both 1902 and 1903, the descrepancy could date back to 1903 or 1913 when the calendars were changed. According to the three sources I have, Thai documents identify the rifle as the Type or Model 46.
 * This issue can be worked out in the main article as additional sources validating R.S. 121 as 2445/1902 or 2446/1903 are presented. I still think we should move the page to reflect all Saimese Mausers.TXGRunner (talk) 18:58, 15 April 2018 (UTC)TXGRunner
 * You have to add 1781 to the R.S. year to get CE, not 1782, since there was no year zero. This is a mistake made by many. Part of the text also seems to have this wrong, which is part of why I'm bringing it up. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, and while I still haven't been able to find clear info on the various types, your proposal indeed seems reasonable. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:16, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I made the changes to the article content described above. I think I successfully navigated the issue relating to the dating between R.S., BE, and CE so nothing is inaccurate, but the text reflects the sources. I added sections for each rifle variant, added a section for ammunition, and added several sources. I'd appreciate anybody opening a discussion on any points before reverting or deleting sections, or enforcing major style/format changes. I welcome any grammar/spelling corrections.


 * I will wait to move/rename the page until a week or so goes by to allow for adequate comment on proposal.TXGRunner (talk) 00:23, 17 April 2018 (UTC)TXGRunner

_________________________

Hello TXGRunner, if you like to read it, let me explain some thoughts about it:


 * renaming it should be done in within some systematic logic - thus for single models or for groups of models aka "xxxxxx style rifle"


 * many east asian military stuff has a designation beginning with "Type XX" which has parallel parallel equivalents with western military stuff f.e. "Model 1909" or "M 1909" or "Model 09" or "Mark 09" or "VZ. 09" etc. Compare f.e. in Category:Mauser_rifles. The calculation of "XX" depends on chinese, japanese, siamese etc. timesystems. "Type XX" is a transcription of signs which are normally not common to us - but it has it's roots in the original description of the material. Normally we have for most of the firearms the name (or an abbreviation) of the manufacturer at the beginning, as we can see it with Colt-AR 15, Bushmaster XM-15, Smith & Wesson M&P15  etc. for military variants we know M16A1,  M16A2, M16A4, M16A4 etc.

In literature you can find designations like:
 * Type XX Mauser versus Mauser Type XX f.e. Type 45 Siamese Mauser
 * Type XX Arisaka versus Arisaka Type XX f.e. Type 38 rifle

What is the difference? f.e.:
 * Type 45 Siamese Mauser is a copy based on the Mauser system - the manufacturer is perhaps unknown (or in this case Manufacturer is "Koishikawa arsenal"). It is a "Mauser-Style-rifle" not made by Mauser as Manufacturer. In this case "Mauser" is the name of the person who was the developer. "Siamese" stands for the military forces who introduced and used this material.

Let us compare a wider known model, because Type 66 Siamese Mauser rifle was copy of the Arisaka type 38 (... what even makes it a bit more curious)
 * Type 38 rifle aka
 * Type 38 carbine
 * Type 38 Cavalry Rifle
 * Type 38 cavalry rifle
 * Type 38 Rifle


 * and more if you look at wikidata:
 * ar تايب 38 (بندقية)
 * bg Тип 38 Арисака
 * cs Arisaka typ 38
 * de Arisaka Typ 38
 * en Type 38 rifle
 * es Fusil Tipo 38
 * et Arisaka M1905
 * fr Fusil Arisaka Type 38
 * hu Arisaka 38
 * it Type 38 (fucile)
 * ja 三八式歩兵銃
 * ko 38식 보병총
 * nl Type 38-geweer
 * no Type 38 rifle
 * pl Karabin wz. 38 Arisaka
 * ru Type 38 (винтовка)
 * sr Тип 38 Арисака
 * sv Arisaka 38
 * tr Type 38
 * uk Arisaka Type 38
 * vi Shiki 38 (súng trường)
 * zh 三八式步枪

In the article of this talk page there is more than one variant included. Lets list them:
 * Type 45 Siamese Mauser
 * Type 46 Siamese Mauser rifle (copy of the Swedish Mauser and Gewehr 98)
 * Type 47 Siamese Mauser carbine (copy of the Swedish Mauser and Gewehr 98)
 * Type 66 Siamese Mauser rifle (copy of the Arisaka type 38)
 * Type 46/66 Siamese Mauser rifle (rechambered Type 46)
 * Type 47/66 Siamese Mauser carbine (rechambered Type 47)


 * Pointing to this article I only found one redirect, namely: Siamese Mauser.

OK now lets come to an conclusion: I suppose to move this article to Siamese Mauser (or comparing to AR-15 style rifle) perhaps better to Siamese Mauser style rifle if you like the second. In each case I strongly recommend to establish redirects for the known sub models. In my opinion using this as a schematic can be useful also for other similar articles. I hope this little research and my thoughts are helpful. Best --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 18:28, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

_________________________ Tom, thanks much for your input and explanation. I will go with Siamese Mauser style rifle. If somebody objects, we can tweak it later. Except for the Type 66, they all use the same receiver, but there are four designations. Only the chambering changed.

I saw the one redirect. I don't know how that works. I will try to figure it out once I change the title.

Thanks again, TXGRunner (talk) 18:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)TXGRunner

_________________________

Discussion after page move
I moved the page and found about 15 redirects (after you move the page, the system gives you a list). Most were minor, like talk pages for anonymous IP based edits. I fixed the tables and references (e.g. Thai Army page, World War II equipment page, etc.), along with the Type 35 rifle reference. TXGRunner (talk) 19:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)TXGRunner


 * Siamese Mauser-style rifle would have been more grammatically correct, though I'm questioning whether this is really preferable to Siamese Mauser. Siamese Mauser is the term used by published sources; inventing our own would be WP:Original research. Also, I'm still not convinced that all references to a Type 45 are erroneous. Thai sources are all over the place on the issue, but some do say that the 45 and 46 designation are both used, depending on the year of entry into service. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


 * @both: 1st: this worked well. 2nd: there might always be an aspect which has not been foreseen in literature. The special collection presented in the article needs a name. So ... as it is proved by this side it was not done without thinking. If something is wrong with the sample "AR-15 style rifle" there should have been many wikipedians who could have seen this. Sry when this is not my specialized field. I think we can leave it as it is. Best --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Ｔｏｍ Thanks for creating a second section. I agree perfection is an aspirational goal and these pages will always be a work in progress.


 * Paul_012 I was fortunate enough to exchange some emails with a recognized authority on the subject, Mr. Francis Allen. He found a forgotten copy of his out of print book (ISBN number and listed on Amazon) and he agreed to sell it to me. Once I get the book, I will update the page with the new sourced data. However, in his email he explained there were two rifle contracts for 20,000 rifles each, arriving at different times in 1903, but still in R.S. 121. When they switched to the Buddhist calendar in 1913, the first contract rifles were designated Type 45, the second contract as Type 46. There were minor differences in the contracts. Later, before rechambering for Type 66 ammunition, all the Type 45 rifles were updated to the Type 46 configuration. So, in Siamese military records they were referred to as Type 46 after that point. A very few were even stamped "Type 46." Later, they all became Type 46/66 when they were rechambered for the spitzer bullet. I suppose some might have escaped the first and/or second arsenal servicing, but they would be extremely rare and difficult to identify.


 * The delivery time of the carbines had no such complication and R.S. 123 became Type 47.


 * Once I receive the book, I can source it and I will update the page accordingly. Further, I will be in Bangkok in late July. I will go to the two museums I know of with rifles and try to find written, authoritative information in Thai. I can read enough Thai, I can tell R.S 121 from Type 45 or Type 46, plus I have a translator. I'll also take some photos I can add to the page. For now, it is more accurate than it was, and once I have the sources in hand, I will make it more accurate still. TXGRunner (talk) 00:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)TXGRunner

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