Talk:Sicilian Mafia

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. The supporters of the move are arguing that "mafia" is ambiguous because it can also refer to various other criminal organizations than the original, Sicilian Mafia. Editors should decide whether mafia should be a dab page, a redirect to Sicilian Mafia, or something else. Ucucha 17:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Additional note. I was leaning the same way in reviewing this. So we have the move by an administrator undone by an involved party.  I'll step in an move this the way I see the discussion which was very similar to Ucucha and leave his words stand. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Mafia → — "Mafia" is now being used to refer to organized crime syndicates all over the world. Even in Italy, "mafia" is used for the Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, etc as well as Cosa Nostra in Sicily. Even the Direzione Investigativa Antimafia calls all Italian gangsters "mafiosi". Once upon a time, when you said "mafia" everyone knew you meant Sicily, but now you must be more specific. We should make the "Mafia" article a disambiguation page that links to all Italian OCGs, and rename this article "Sicilian Mafia".Kurzon (talk) 09:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * There are several problems with the move that have to be solved before the move is made, if it is decided that it will be made. I am not convinced that this should be done. Contrary to what you say, in Italy, Mafia is rarely used for 'Ndrangheta and Camorra, and members of those organisations are properly called 'Ndranghetisti and Camorristi. The 'Ndrangheta and Camorra are Mafia-type organisations, according to the DIA, but they are not the Mafia. The plural Mafie, however, is often used to indicate all structured organized criminal associations. Mafioso and mafiosi are also often used as an adjective, but not as a noun, when other Italian criminal organisations are discussed by the DIA.
 * There are other issues that need to be solved as well. For instance, the "official" name of what you want to call the Sicilian Mafia is Cosa Nostra. Consequently, there is a case to made that the article should be moved to Cosa Nostra and not Sicilian Mafia. Second, where would the etymology go? That is very much linked to the Sicilian situation, so it should stay in the article about the Sicilian phenomenon. - DonCalo (talk) 18:13, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The etymology can go on both the disambig page and the Sicilian Mafia page. As for "Cosa Nostra", the American Mafia also uses that name.  "Sicilian Mafia" is more specific.Kurzon (talk) 07:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment with all that popular culture stuff, I would think that the American Mafia would be primary for "mafia"... 70.29.208.247 (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: In W Europe, American and Sicilian Mafia as well as Camorra and (in more recent times) 'Ndrangheta, and all sorts of "ethnic" Eurasian groups may be called "mafia". Only the latter usually have a qualifier (Russian, Serbian, Albanian, Chinese, ...). Indeed, the only groups that was/is not generally called "mafia" may be the Cosa Nostra (and later on, the Yakuza). Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 17:44, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: Maybe in Italy they "know" what the "Mafia" is, but this article is for the whole world, particularly the ENGLISH speaking world.BaronBifford (talk) 12:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Even in Italy itself, I think "Mafia" can be a bit ambiguous. In America, if you say "Mafia", people will think Al Capone and New York, not Toto Riina and Sicily.  Add a "Sicilian" descriptor and you remove ALL confusion.Kurzon (talk) 19:01, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course the English speaking world is not concerned what the rest of the world thinks if it does not fit in their narrow-minded Anglo-Saxon perception of reality. The idea that they can learn something from other parts of the world is completely alien to them. Let's keep the discussion serious. Kurzon certainly has a point. The question is if we should resolve this in the Mafia article or in a separate article about other uses about the concept Mafia. - DonCalo (talk) 22:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Giving this article a "Sicilian" descriptor is about clarification, not about imposing a cultural view. "Mafia" is not a formally defined term, and I think neither the Italian public nor the men of honor in Sicily will be offended if we do this. Heck, even the Italian wikipedia article uses a disambig approach.Kurzon (talk) 06:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Call it "Sicilian Mafia" or "Sicilian Cosa Nostra" so that you don't confuse it with America. BaronBifford (talk) 16:41, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose as per DonCalo. This is, and would be developed as, the Mafia general article about that globally famous criminal association phenomenon generated two centuries ago in Sicily and then spread in North America trough Italian immigration into US. If you want to create an article about Mafia in Sicily you have to call it Cosa Nostra. Sicilian Mafia is very confusing. --Theirrulez (talk) 13:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Even the American Mafia calls itself "cosa nostra".  That's where the world first heard of the term, in fact (read the article).  Since both Mafias call themselves "Cosa Nostra", "Sicilian Mafia" is less confusing.Kurzon (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, sir. This is the main mistake people make categorizing mafia articles and probably is what it's leading us here. I read on the related article that Cosa Nostra is also a name for American Mafia. This is very confusing, even if very often used, and doesn't correspond to a correct name attribution. The mainly mistake is not to understand what American Mafia is: just a US branch of Cosa Nostra. What I mean is that the American Mafia since its first economic and power raise in the late '30 has never completely (until today) cut its link with the mother criminal organization properly called Cosa Nostra. It's a bad habitude, openly but uncorrectly adopted in the Mafia template, to categorize other countries most popular criminal associations as Mafias. The main and more distinguishing mark of the Mafia, also said Cosa Nostra (that you want to call Sicilian Mafia), is its close interaction with the territory where it operates, its "respectful role" among civil population, and its strict member gerarchy, which made it very similar to a feudal structure. Your thesis about if "in America, if you say "Mafia", people will think Al Capone and New York, not Toto Riina and Sicily" shows partially what I'm trying to explain: 1 - Mafia is the most common name in American language customs to refer to this criminal associations instead of Cosa Nostra. 2 - An encyclopedia shouldn't go along with popular language assumptions, on the contrary an encyclopedia must clearify the right references and contents in a specific field.
 * Let me finally underline that there isn't a complete article on the Mafia itself, and there should be one, a bit more cleaned and sourced, in which we can develop a section calling it Sicilian Mafia or Mafia in Sicily (1955-2000) or whatelse. --Theirrulez (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * About this so diffuse mistake, I suggeest you the book Cosa Nostra Giovanni Falcone, Marcelle Padovani, 1992 (there's also a newer edition, c. 2007) ISBN 8291117020, 9788291117027, which can be considered the bible of the Mafia history. --Theirrulez (talk) 16:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I find your argument rather difficult to understand - I see you have difficulties with the English language. cosa nostra is how mobsters in both Sicily and America often refer to their criminal organization when they talk to each other in their private conversations. They have never gone public to the world to establish "official" names by which they want to be called.  Being criminals, they are secretive and would rather the world did not know they exist.  Mafia is just a term the public made up, and it too has no formal legal definition.  There is no "correct" way to describe them.  So I am proposing a clear way to describe them.Kurzon (talk) 19:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but the term Mafia is official language since at least 1865. It is used to indicate Cosa nostra in Italy and has a formal legal definition in Italy (artcle 416b of the criminal code). - DonCalo (talk) 19:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But 416 bis, AFAIK, does not define "Mafia" as being specifically Sicilian. It defines "Mafia-type associations" that follow a certain pattern.  True to this definition, the reports of the DIA include all Italian mafias, not just cosa nostra.  In Italy, the Cammora and the 'Ndrangheta are also considered mafia by law.
 * "The association is of a Mafia-type nature when those belonging to the association exploit the potential for intimidation which their membership gives them, and the compliance and omerta which membership entails and which lead to the committing of crimes, the direct or indirect assumption of management or control of financial activities, concessions, permissions, enterprises and public services for the purpose of deriving profit or wrongful advantages for themselves or others." -416 bis
 * Kurzon (talk) 20:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the Camorra and the 'Ndrangheta are Mafia-type organisations, they are not the Mafia. That is the difference and that is why an article about the Mafia should be about the Mafia and not all kind of Mafia-type organisations. - DonCalo (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "they are not the Mafia" - in the absence of formal, legal definitions, this is YOUR personal definition. You are pretty much just deciding that Mafia = Sicily, and everyone is just an imitator.  How about I trawl Wikipedia for someone who thinks Mafia = New York, and thinks of Sicily only as "the old country"? What would make him wrong and you right? My proposal is about CLARITY.  It's not about making anything official.Kurzon (talk) 21:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If someone thinks Mafia = New York, he/she is completely mistaken. It is Wikipedia's plight to correct these misconceptions. The Mafia is Sicilian, it originated in Sicily and the term derived from the Sicilian dialect. Even in the US, people associate the Mafia with Sicily. Just because the powerful "example" is now used to describe organised criminal organisations everywhere does not mean that those are the Mafia: they are Mafia-type organisations. - DonCalo (talk) 21:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. I refute your earlier argument by citing the actual legal text of 416bis, and you use my rebuttal to go on another path.
 * The definition is about Mafia-type organisations, taking the Mafia as the essential “example”. Because the law has to be as wide as possible to also cover similar criminal organizations, Mafia-type was introduced; a good solution we should follow. - DonCalo (talk) 23:20, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as Italian law is concerned, Mafia does not mean cosa nostra. There is no official source that I know of that insists Mafia must be Sicily.  It could mean the Mafia in America just as much as the Mafia in Sicily.  Or is it just "dumb Americans"?Kurzon (talk) 22:02, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Giovanni Falcone: "While there was a time when people were reluctant to pronounce the word 'Mafia,' … nowadays people have gone so far in the opposite direction that it has become an overused term … I am no longer willing to accept the habit of speaking of the Mafia in descriptive and all-inclusive terms that make it possible to stack up phenomena that are indeed related to the field of organized crime but that have little or nothing in common with the Mafia." Falcone’s polemic was directed against those who freely and indiscriminately blend a criminal superelite originating in western Sicily, which today is widely known as Cosa Nostra, along with its equally renowned counterpart in the United States, with organized crime in general and even, in some cases, with ordinary crime. According to the most commonly accepted definition, Mafia corresponds to the regional criminality of Sicily, and Camorra corresponds to the regional criminality of Campania. (Salvatore Lupo, The History of the Mafia, New York: Columbia University Press, 2009 ISBN 978-0-231-13134-6, pp. 1-2). - DonCalo (talk) 22:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess it is just "dumb Americans." - DonCalo (talk) 22:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: I think the best solution is to adapt the sentence at the top: This article is about the Sicilian criminal society. For the Italian-American counterpart, see American Mafia; for the more general use of Mafia to indicate criminal organisations, see Mafia-type organisations. For other uses, see Mafia (disambiguation). Or something along these lines. - DonCalo (talk) 18:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We've already pretty much done this. Your proposal doesn't improve anything.Kurzon (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Done this? Where? I am afraid you proposal to move the article is not really an improvement. The Mafia is first and foremost the criminal association in Sicily, the rest are offshoots or misconstrued variations by the public. Maybe you could be a little bit more open minded to find a solution. You certainly have a point, but I don't agree with your proposal. - DonCalo (talk) 19:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We can start developing the article, before any move proposal. --Theirrulez (talk) 19:34, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Maybe Kurzon can develop a draft on Mafia-type organisations in his User space. - DonCalo (talk) 19:36, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Seems sensible. I can't see why such heavy weather is being made over this. Please remember this is about usage in the English language, not Italian. Johnbod (talk) 12:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because it is about usage in the English language does not mean we should nurture any misconceptions. - DonCalo (talk) 15:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Would you rather we retitle this "The One True Mafia"?Kurzon (talk) 08:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, better "What Kurzon thinks about the Mafia". DonCalo (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I think we're both getting too snarky here. Let's both back off.Kurzon (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. English is an unregulated living language - rules and meaning are strongly influenced by usage, especially for loanwords.  Modern usage has co-opted "mafia" as a common noun to describe criminal enterprises such as these.  As far as self-identification goes, the organization in question has historically insisted on not giving itself one.  81.111.114.131 (talk) 10:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You seem to confuse an encyclopedia with a dictionary. A dictionary is about the usage of language, an encyclopedia is about explaining a phenomenon. - DonCalo (talk) 07:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME Mafia is the most well known name for this type of organized crime. Wikipedia must have an overview article, not a disambiguation page for 'Mafia'. Do not change the name and keep the redirect as is. Outback the koala (talk) 02:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, but "Mafia" is the "common name" for the American Mafia when you're in America, any Italian organized crime group when you're in Europe. When multiple subjects share a common name, a descriptor is added to distinguish them.  We could retitle this article "Mafia (Sicily)", but I think "Sicilian Mafia" is best.Kurzon (talk) 08:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We already have a descriptor for the American Mafia, so we don't need one for the Sicilian one, which is the original one. I think the best solution is to change the top sentence in : This article is about the Sicilian criminal society. For the Italian-American counterpart, see American Mafia; for the more general use of Mafia to indicate criminal organisations, see Mafia-type organisations. For other uses, see Mafia (disambiguation). - DonCalo (talk) 15:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Imagine if we renamed the Catholicism article to Christianity, since Catholicism is the "original" religion!Kurzon (talk) 15:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That is a silly comparison, we are discussing the use of the term Mafia here, not Catholicism or Christianity. - DonCalo (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's an analogy that fits the situation well.Kurzon (talk) 09:12, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The Anti-Mafia Investigations Directorate (DIA) use the term Mafia-type organisations to indicate all criminal organisations: Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra etc. We better stick with their definition and use of the terms. A search with Google had about 28,900 results with Mafia-type organizations and about 16,500 results Mafia-type organisations. Scholars use the term regularly to distinguish between the Mafia and other organised criminal organisation that are structured like the Mafia, such as the Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, etc. - DonCalo (talk) 15:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The DIA reports refer to the Sicilian Mafia as cosa nostra - are you suggesting we rename this article to that instead? Pointless, since the American mafia also uses that name.
 * The DIA reports and 416bis do not define the Sicilian Mafia as "the one true Mafia", so stop pretending it does.Kurzon (talk) 21:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop your disinformation. The DIA uses Mafia-type organisations to refer to the Camorra, the 'Ndrangheta etc. to clearly distinguish it from the Mafia, see here: Anti-Mafia Investigations Directorate. - DonCalo (talk) 17:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I support this move per common and even formal usage but the lack of consensus on what "Mafia" means if it's not only the Sicilian Mafia is troubling. (I don't have an answer either. Having Mafia as a disambiguation page works but it seems a little unsatisfying in this case.)  However, the existence of the prominent (American) Mafia in an English-speaking country warrants a move per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. —  AjaxSmack   16:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no consensus on the move, so I reverted it. - DonCalo (talk) 17:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A wrong and sad decision. Yet another example of the increasing incompetence in Wikipedia. Admins now pretend to know it better than the scientific community. The line of reasoning by the one who requested the move was refuted. There was no clear consensus: five in favour and three strongly opposed. Even if unanimity is not required, this is not an example of clear consensus. Following the above misconstrued logic are we now going to rename the 'Ndrangheta into the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta and the Camorra into the Neapolitan Camorra? - DonCalo (talk) 08:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course not, because nobody uses the term "Neapolitan Camorra". But people do use the term "Mafia" for all sorts of organizations outside Sicily.  Language mutates. I understand this phenomenon is upsetting to older scholars but we must be flexible.  The word Mafia was an informal term invented by outsiders, and it has mutated into something of a catch-all term for criminal syndicates everywhere.  Mafiosi themselves don't really care for the term and have not tried to file lawsuits against publications or foreign gangs who abuse the term.  They call themselves "Cosa Nostra", and individual clans often have their own ways of branding themselves to the public.Kurzon (talk) 22:11, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I just quote Giovanni Falcone, the anti-Mafia judge murdered by the Mafia in 1992, who objected to the inflation of the use of "Mafia" to organized crime in general: "While there was a time when people were reluctant to pronounce the word 'Mafia' ... nowadays people have gone so far in the opposite direction that it has become an overused term ... I am no longer willing to accept the habit of speaking of the Mafia in descriptive and all-inclusive terms that make it possible to stack up phenomena that are indeed related to the field of organized crime but that have little or nothing in common with the Mafia." But you seem to know better ... - DonCalo (talk) 21:30, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The honorable Mr Falcone made that statement more than 20 years ago. Nobody listened to him.Kurzon (talk) 09:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The quote is from a book from 2009 by a Sicilian scholar that devotes a substantial section on the issue. He certainly listened to Falcone. The problem is that all kinds of ignorant self-appointed specialists think they know better. - DonCalo (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I would like to see more information on things like the 'DOM' or 'DON'. The heirarchy is not mentioned very much, nor the pattern of affiliation to a 'DON' or 'DOM' figurehead. --Mnoon (talk) 16:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Location of Mafia page
Since the location of the Mafia page was not settled above, please discuss it at Talk:Mafia (disambiguation) if you care. —  AjaxSmack   02:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You have also posted a message there saying discuss it here! Make yr mind up please. Johnbod (talk) 02:52, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I was referring users to the previous move discussion above.  The idea was to have the fate of Mafia discussed at Talk:Mafia (disambiguation).  —   AjaxSmack   03:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

www.maffia.jordykroeze.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.72.29.128 (talk • contribs) 01:05, 11 December 2011

"Appointments must absolutely be respected."
"Appointments must absolutely be respected" is one of Lo Piccolo's ten commandments. Does "appointment" here mean rank or a rendez-vous? It could be either, as the Mafia demands both punctuality and obedience. I think it means rank, as punctuality is already covered by "always being available for Cosa Nostra".Kurzon (talk) 00:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Merge To of
Mustache Pete is a pseudonym, MOS:BIO, of Sicilian Mafia so I'm not sure why it has a separate article. We should be able to have a section in this article if the content supports it. I don't think every slang term for a subject needs to have it's own article. --Hutcher (talk) 18:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The term has to do with America more that Italy, hence the American spelling. If anything, it should redirect to the American Mafia. The term is significant because of the rift caused between the group and the "Young Turks" which led to the Castellammarese War.

Interwiki project
Please: in it:wiki Mafia is an article for the world mafia. In en:wiki Sicilian Mafia is the only sicilian phenomenon. For the Sicilian Mafia in it:wiki there is Cosa Nostra. Please, do not change the link to it:wiki an other time. Thank you.--79.53.109.245 (talk) 07:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Etymology
The etymology section is totally incorrect and contains arbitrary speculation. The well known explanation which comes directly from a Sicilian viewpoint is that the entire mythology or origin of the Mafia in some form dates back to ancient times. It is a borrowed term that was commonly used to specifically refer to theft throughout the Hellenic world, most notably in Asia.

Rather than give credit to the Greek history of the words that translated to Mafia, which is clearly derived from the slang term maf'  which is a shortened and archaic form of the Greek word for black or 'to blacken' (mav-ros {phonetic}); the Wikipedia editors would rather come up with some fantasy about the word originating from Arabic. It's total nonsense. This shows that Wikipedia at times is clueless and in fact belligerent, in a fight against the cultures that provided the historical foundation of successful civilization.

There is no mention of a historical link between the description of something being "black" or culturally dark and the same characterization used to describe criminal acts (or dark acts). (i.e. dark horse, black sheep, black magic, black death etc.)

Instead of including any factual reference, the article alludes to something that makes no sense. "Mafia means that criminals originally lived in caves and bragged about their crimes"? Thanks Wikipedia, I needed to hear a good joke.

There is an entire documented history going back to ancient times to describe and explain where the whole origin of the Mafia comes from and the article contains almost none of the facts


 * We did not make up this stuff. This stuff comes from books by respected academics.  In any case, nobody knows for certain where the word comes from.  It's all speculation, not facts.  You sound like a troll.Kurzon (talk) 10:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

NPOV template
The identification of Sicilia region as the territory of pertinence of Mafia is highly disputable, since the judicial chronicles in Italy clearly show its presence and ramifications in other Central and Northern Italian regions, like Lombardia, Piemonte, etc. Therefore the map is giving a false and distorted information and should have to be updated accordingly.--Ferdinando Scala (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * How does that have anything to do with NPOV? If its a mistake, please provide reliable sources that correct the information already available. I'm removing the template since it was misused. ComputerJA (talk)
 * Which map are you talking to? The Cutrera map in the history section is just a scan of an historical map.  I don't know if it's perfectly accurate, but it is a primary source made by a Sicilian cop.Kurzon (talk) 21:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?
I...uh...looked up this page and found a bunch of crap in the beginning, so I edited it a little with my completely amateur editing skills. Unfortunately, the disambiguation link doesn't work anymore. Could someone with more expertise than me take care of that?24.1.80.167 (talk) 00:24, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Calderone's view of Fascist suppression
The article contains a quote from Antonino Calderone that the Fascists had almost destroyed the Mafia. A recent book by John Dickie insists that Mafia survived Mori's suppression by simply laying low. They would pretend that they had been destroyed so that the authorities would pay less attention to them. Calderone was born in 1935, which meant he was only 10 years old when the war ended. How could a little boy have known the truth? The Mafia doesn't like to disclose its activities, and it doesn't like to record its history either, so Calderone would probably not have learned the truth when he became a mafiosi himself. Calderone was probably deceived just like Mussolini and the wider Italian public.Kurzon (talk) 07:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Antonino Calderone was born in a traditional Mafia family so he lived the poverty of the Mafia in those days. He subsequently became a pentito and, according to Falcone who interogated him, he was honest in his testimony. The fact that the Mafia was not destroyed does not say anything about their economic survival. - DonCalo (talk) 12:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's never really clear. I'm just pointing out that mafiosi can also have distorted view of their organization's history.  Giovanni Brusca believed in the myth of the Spanish knights, for instance.  Calderone did not live through the 1930s as a mafioso so he is a secondary source.  I wish we could get a primary source, ie a mafioso who survived and evaded the Mori operation.Kurzon (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Legend of the three Spanish (gli tre Spagnolo)
I've watched several documentaries about how the Cosa Nostra arised. (atleast one was made by the BBC). And documentaries that go further back in time, usually get to the legend of three Spanish sailors that arrived to the island, and asked the people "Why do You not do anything about Your problems Yourselves ?" This is known as "Gli Tre Spagnolo"-legend. And this legend (if true) goes back to the 15th or 16th century. Far, far earlier than the Napoleon wars. At least it's true that the legend exists. If the legend is true, I don't know, and no documentary I've watched has stated that the legend is true. Only that it exists. No one else heard or read about this ? Boeing720 (talk) 19:00, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Never heard about this legend. In Italian language "Gli Tre Spagnolo" isn't correct. It should be "I tre Spagnoli" or "Le tre Spagnole". However, many historians argue that the origins of the Mafia date back to the Spanish domination of Sicily. The same hypothesis (the Spanish domination) also for the Camorra in Naples and the 'Ndrangheta in Calabria.  --Prodebugger (talk) 00:18, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move Mafia (disambiguation) to Mafia, in preparation for DABCONCEPT article. --  tariq abjotu  13:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Sicilian Mafia → Mafia – The closer in the 2010 RM said "Editors should decide whether mafia should be a dab page, a redirect to Sicilian Mafia, or something else." A followup RM on the issue gained no consensus, so that decision was never made. But if the subject of this article is called Mafia, referred to as Sicilian Mafia to distinguish it from other organizations, it should be located at Mafia if it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and Mafia should be a disambiguation page if it isn't. Either solution would suit me, though for what it's worth, just moving this page would involve the least effort. BDD (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support making a football-esque WP:DABCONCEPT. It would be a shame to have a list of things named Mafia instead of one centralized article, with plenty of prominent links to the original iteration of the Mafia and other versions, describing Mafias around the world. Yet clearly the proposed move flunks WP:PRECISION, much as I'd support the move otherwise. Red Slash 00:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose the proposed move.  The existence of other mafias including the prominent (American) Mafia in an English-speaking country means the Sicilian Mafia is not the primary topic.  Support the idea of a "football-esque WP:DABCONCEPT" article but is there a way to limit it to actual Mafias and not have it become a massive article trying to cover all analogous entities?  —  AjaxSmack   01:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose "Mafia" is not restricted to Sicilians or Sicilian-derived crime syndicates in English. The 'Ndrangheta is also commonly called the Mafia, and Calabrian Mafia, indeed many Italian criminal syndicates are called Mafia. And the American Mafia is just "Mafia" as well, and more prominently so than the Sicilian originals. Though Red Slash's proposal looks good. Either replace the current redirect with the disambiguation page, or create an overview article per Red Slash. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This will be left to the closer to decide, of course, but at this point it looks like everyone would be comfortable with a DABCONCEPT article. Personally, I recommend moving Mafia (disambiguation) to Mafia and tagging it with dabconcept. --BDD (talk) 22:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, of course, I have no idea who would actually write that dabconcept article. Red Slash 23:07, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * At least the tag would put it on the collective to-do list. --BDD (talk) 23:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

English translation of "Cosa Nostra"
Wouldn't it be better if Cosa Nostra was translated as "Our Cause" instead of "Our Concern"? The latter sounds very amateurish as far as language goes. It just feels weird. Our Cause is more accurate, and you can see the shared origin of Cause and Cosa.62.245.69.24 (talk) 22:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)


 * No, the proper translation is "our thing". It is never nowhere translated as "our cause" or "our concern". - DonCalo (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Sections paraphrase rather than summarize
Fascist suppression and Fascist suppression merely paraphrase Sicilian mafia during the Mussolini regime in about as many words as the forked article. Is this proper, or should these sections be made shorter and more like a summary of the forked article? Denny1213 (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

A seemingly obvious error in a play attribution of authorship
From the article:

"The public's association of the word with the criminal secret society was perhaps inspired by the 1863 play "I mafiusi di la Vicaria" ("The Mafiosi of the Vicaria") by Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca. The words mafia and mafiusi are never mentioned in the play; they were probably put in the title to add a local flair."

Gaetano Mosca’s linked article on Wikipedia doesn’t mention anything about him ever having written any play (though he did, apparently, write at least one book about the Mafia) and, more importantly regarding this article, that he was born in 1858. If he did co-author this play in 1863, he must have been most precocious! Can someone with more knowledge of this subject than me look into fixing this obvious error? Thank you.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 22:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Okay, I found the answer myself. Wrong man! Can someone with more tech ability than me please fix it using this source?  Thanks much.  Here's the story behind the play and how the term Mafia became popularized by it:


 * http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_264.htmlHistoryBuff14 (talk) 23:14, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for raising this inaccuracy; done. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 23:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, sir, thank you so much for your prompt assistance. It is most appreciated.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 23:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Definitions
Regarding the additions/removal of info in the definitions section, can this be hashed out her without edit warring. Both User:Kurzon and have not provided adequate explanation of its removal/inclusion. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello, as I said before, I just restore the old version... I think readers should have real information here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.204.17 (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That is not an explanation for the restoration. Why do you think this version should be the version that is displayed? Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 17:47, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I think my version is effectively just as informative. I trimmed the wishy-washy text. Kurzon (talk) 18:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)


 * What is your reason for removing particularly the first paragraph It is difficult to exactly define the single function or goal of the phenomenon of the Mafia. Until the early 1980s, mafia was generally considered a unique Sicilian cultural attitude and form of power, excluding any corporate or organisational dimension. Some even used it as a defensive attempt to render the Mafia benign and romantic — not a criminal association, but the sum of Sicilian values that outsiders will never understand.  <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:06, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

It's vague. It's not clear what you're talking about. It's just saying "the mafia is hard to define". Well, so what? It's a vague position without explanation. It's not a definition, and it doesn't have any consequence for the actual definitions that we've written in this section. Kurzon (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Also, I resent the notion that I'm some little kid who doesn't know what he's talking about. I bought and read several books on the Mafia specifically as research for this article. Maybe I'm not on par with professors like Gambetta, but I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass. Kurzon (talk) 18:40, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was a personal attack by the IP, which was obviously wrong and immature of him to say. Anyway, that is in reference to the only the first sentence. If we get rid of that, what's the reason for removing the sourced content? <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 18:42, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

I just wanted to trim the cruft and organize the information better. I've done that now. Kurzon (talk) 11:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Listen, it was you or someone else that also deleted the name of the organisation and put the "Etymology" section at the end of the page and deleted some part of the Definition section, and it's does not look good! Yes, the Mafia is a unique Sicilian and there is only one Mafia... and when you put "the albanian mafia" that don't really exist or the Belgian mafia or whatever as "allies" of the Mafia you are going out of reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.204.17 (talk) 11:12, 4 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I believe you to be a sock of the IP above, but if you are cable this time, please discuss the changes here per WP:BRD before any further revisions. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 17:59, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right... if "Kurzon" says that its not clear.. so his version is more clear? He had even go as far and deleted the name of the organisation from article! Under Italian law there have been always one Mafia and that is what I'm trying to say. And the article was also written like this. It's about the organisation in Sicily, not abroad.
 * Most of what is written are anecdotes and are not in line with WP:NPOV. Referencing Italian law will require a source, a source that I do not used. Please provide it here with exactly what should be added. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 20:03, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * what do you mean? It had been written like this for almost 10 years... you can even see here that "kurzon" had same "discussion in 2010. I don't understand what he is trying to do now. And as for the sources you can see what the historian Salvatore Lupo from Columbia university is saying and also to "open your eyes" as you told me before and check and see it here https://www.csmonitor.com/From-the-news-wires/2010/0713/Ndrangheta-mafia-structure-revealed-as-Italian-police-nab-300-alleged-mobsters — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymous3126 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That source is not included in the article, so there would be no way for me to read your mind. I also found the better, and have added it to the 'Ndrangheta page, as that is the page that such info should be stated. This statement "The term Mafia-type organisations is used to clearly distinguish the uniquely Sicilian Mafia from other criminal organisations – such as the Camorra, the 'Ndrangheta, the Sacra Corona Unita – that are structured like the Mafia but are not the Mafia. According to historian Salvatore Lupo, "if everything is Mafia, nothing is Mafia." is also false proved by the sources you and I pointed out, the Camorra and 'Ndrangheta are considered Mafia-type organizations with similar structure under Italian law. And for the record, by your statement, it is known you were the IP. Coming back to the edits removed here, can you tell me why something like "The purpose of this is to minimize inter-clan feuding, particularly territorial disputes, and promote cooperation for problems that extend beyond one clan's borders. For instance, if a burglar robs someone in one clan's territory and flees to another part of Sicily, that clan will need the help of other clans to track down the burglar and recover the loot." That statement is completely unnecessary, and perhaps just an anecdote - from what I can see in Gambetta's book, that isn't in there. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 21:48, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * that is the point :) they are Mafia-tybe, and not the Mafia :) and as for the second statement, it's from Franchetti book and maybe it's not really necessary in the article but it's gives more information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymous3126 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * and also, you can look on the books of Salvatore Lupo on the Mafia.
 * also, it's unknown if there is any one "all powerfull" Boss right now. although Messina Denaro is the last one who could be as such, but it's believed that Toto Riina was still the real Boss untill his final days.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymous3126 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * here are more sources for what Lupo was talking about https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12503753.history-of-the-mafia-by-salvatore-lupo/ https://books.google.it/books?id=slnQcUnl8D0C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=history+of+the+mafia+lupo+if+everything+is+mafia&source=bl&ots=BIHJVOztwc&sig=ACfU3U0eNsJH2Omn_IFDvsVX6-eM8f5ZLg&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5w5mA7KblAhUwSBUIHaM-BYQQ6AEwEnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=history


 * Those sources are good. Could you then formulate something you would like to add to the article based on these sources, and place it here to discuss it, because the way the paragraphs were written were not up to par. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 16:08, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * thank you for fixing Lupo sources, it was a dead link. Can I now add back what was removed from the article including the first part: It is difficult to exactly define the single function or goal of the phenomenon of the Mafia. Until the early 1980s, mafia was generally considered a unique Sicilian cultural attitude and form of power, excluding any corporate or organisational dimension.[1] Some even used it as a defensive attempt to render the Mafia benign and romantic — not a criminal association, but the sum of Sicilian values that outsiders will never understand? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymous3126 (talk • contribs) 10:58, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's necessary because it does not have an encyclopedic tone, and the history is already given in etymology. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 14:59, 20
 * it's absolutely necessary because it's give more clear image of the organisation, the Mafia is Sicilian. I think what should really be removed from article is the statement about the "old mafia had return" it did not and I think will ever really return.. the Mafia today is weakest than ever and it's really unknown if there is any "Boss of bosses" at the moment. There is no really such position in the Sicilian Mafia and only few Bosses in the past were managed "to take over" on the whole organisation

Mafia Capitale
Mafia Capitale was liquidated in 2014, so it is idiocy to write that Cosa Nostra is working with a gang that was liquidated and its members will be sentenced to long prison terms.

Territories
I changed the territories listed in the infobox. The Mafia is not a single organization but a loose confederation of gangs, and the expatriate gangs in America, South America etc. are loosely connected to the Sicilian gangs. Furthermore, I want to only list territories where the Mafia runs traditional protection rackets, not where it might have any sort of financial stake.

This is an excerpt I got from Letizia Paoli's book:

"The first and most prominent is the Sicilian Cosa Nostra (“our thing”), a confederation of about 150 groups, mostly located in the western part of Sicily, more specifically the provinces of Palermo (the region’s capital), Trapani, and Agrigento (Ministero dell’Interno 2012b, pp. 28–70)."

I emailed Prof Paoli and she tells me that this is still the case. Furthermore, she says that the Sicilian Mafia's territory has been shrinking, not expanding, in the last two decades. The Mafia's golden days are behind them.

Kurzon (talk) 07:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree 100% with you, Kurzon! I think the way in which the mafia territories were described here was completely out of control, every time someone related to the mafia was arrested in a certain country, the people here at wikipedia already wanted to add it as mafia territory... and as you said yourself: "The Mafia's golden days are behind them."

Countries such as Venezuela where the Cuntrera-Caruana Mafia clan had a strong presence are not Mafia territories anymore, even this mafia family is long gone. So, there's no reason to say that countries such as Venezuela still a mafia territory.

Kanirieu (talk) 14:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I removed categories for countries other than Italy because the Mafia doesn't really have a strong presence in other countries other than America, and most scholars treat the American Mafia as a separate entity. Kurzon (talk) 20:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

List of notable mafiosi
Hello, well, i deleted the old mafia bosses that already died because, first of all the list was totally incomplete, and if we add here all the considered "notable" mafiosi the list will be as longer as List of Sicilian Mafia members (so, it would have no reason to have a page with the list of the Mafia members if the article of the Mafia already has the name of all the Mafia members), since all the mafiosi that has a wikipedia article, we can consider them to be "notable" (what would be the other way to say if a mobster was notable or not like the ones already listed?). The other reason to delete the names of the mobsters who have died is that the page should show the current situation of the mafia, as the Mafia still exists and for many it is still very powerful (not as much as it once was but it still has a remarkable power) its the same line of reasoning as was done here months ago by deleting the territories where the mafia was once present and is no longer (example: Venezuela) and also deleting the old allies of the Mafia. Alanzeritade (talk) 14:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Cosa Nostra
The page name should be “Cosa Nostra” and not “Sicilian Mafia”.

This is for 2 reasons:

1. Sicilian Mafia is the Cosa Nostra’s simplified name, it’s like calling the Ndrangheta the “Calabrian Mafia” or the Camorra the “Neapolitan Mafia”.

2. There are 2 Sicilian Mafias: the Cosa Nostra (the main one, which this Wikipedia page talks about) and La Stidda (the second, smaller Sicilian Mafia limited to the South Coast of Sicily). 2A02:C7F:21A:300:4DD8:B032:254D:5CFA (talk) 22:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I had a lot of arguments with Vasilineeee over this. Initially, this article was called "Mafia", but I changed it to "Sicilian Mafia" so as to distinguish it from the American Mafia and other Italian crime syndicates. Vasilinee didn't like it. I don't recommend opening this old can of worms. Kurzon (talk) 18:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Cultural perspectives
I don't like this section because this tell us anything. It says that scholars often ignore the cultural aspects that characterize the Mafia, but it doesn't explain what these aspects are. It's really waffling. Have you actually read the section and thought hard about, about how educational it is to a reader who knows nothing about the Mafia? I see no value in that section. I'm also skeptical of the very idea that the Mafia is uniquely Sicilian because there are organized crime syndicates all over the world that engage in protection rackets. There's no reason to discuss the cultural quirks of the Sicilian Mafia if those quirks aren't inextricably linked to what mafiosi do. Kurzon (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Quite frankly, I totally disagree. This article is about the Sicilian Mafia, so it is about a Sicilian phenomenon and not about other foreign Mafia-type organisations, so it is relevant here. It is relevant, because many scholars on the Mafia do look into the socio-cultural aspects of the Mafia that go beyond the Mafia as an organisation, and consider these socio-cultural aspects important to explain why the Mafia is rooted so deeply in Sicily. DonCalo (talk) 22:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, maybe that's worth covering... but what are they? What are the cultural aspects of the Mafia? The section as it is tells us nothing. Unless somebody actually does the work and researches the cultural aspects of the Mafia, this section as it is, is useless and should be deleted. (I suppose you expect ME to do the work, right?) Kurzon (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

"Cosa nostra" translated as "our business"?
Is there a reliable source translating "cosa nostra" as "our business", as it is being translated in the lead? My understanding was that it meant "our thing". ComeAndHear (talk) 09:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It does - changed. Johnbod (talk) 13:37, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for confirming. I've added a RS stating as much. ComeAndHear (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested change
It says the 18th century when it should say 19th century because the papers mentioned talk about the 18xx years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.216.52.180 (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The only mention of the 18th century is this: demand for oranges and lemons following the late 18th-century discovery that citrus fruits cured scurvy. The discover was indeed made in the 18th C (see scruvy for details), so this seems to be accurate. If it's a different mention of it somewhere that's I've missed, let us know. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  13:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Where does Cosa Nostra operate
Malta,Spain,France,Germany,Switzerland,Belgium (cooperation with Camorra and Ndragheta)
 * cocaine and heroin smuggling, gasoline smuggling, gambling, corruption in public procurement, illegal export of industrial waste

Tunisia, Marocco
 * cocaine,gasoline smuggling (cooperation with Camorra and Ndrangheta)

Colombia,Brazil,Uruguay (cooperation with Ndrangheta,Autodefensas Gaitanistas de Colombia,Rondas Campesinas Populares, La Oficina)
 * cocaine and weapons smuggling

Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon
 * heroin smuggling (with Corsican, Greek, Turkish, Pakistani, Lebanese smugglers)

Canada and USA
 * money laundering, extortion (cooperation with Ndrangheta and local Cosa Nostra families)

Australia
 * cocaine smuggling (cooperation with Ndrangheta and La Oficina Colombian smugglers) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

--86.111.119.54 (talk) 09:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

cooperation
 * Camorra
 * 'Ndrangheta
 * Sacra Corona Unita
 * Società foggiana
 * Italian American Cosa Nostra
 * Gaitanist Self-Defense Forces of Colombia
 * Rondas Campesinas Populares
 * La Oficina
 * Bratva
 * Black Axe

DonCalo
We had this conversation years ago. That bit is just drivel to the layman. Maybe to a scholar of Sicily, this conclusion makes sense, but it teaches nothing to a new student. Kurzon (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I did not agree with you then, and I don't agree with you now. It is an essential part for understanding that the Mafia is not just a criminal organisation and is discussed widely, from the Italian Mafia Commission to many scholars. But I am open to rephrase it of course. - DonCalo (talk) 06:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

That's a fine idea to communicate, but there wasn't anything concrete in there. Besides, organized crime isn't unique to Sicily. Does Sicilian culture somehow make the Mafia functionally different from other mafia-like groups like the yakuza or the American Mafia? Kurzon (talk) 16:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Pretentious gobbledygook
I view this article as a big mistake. The main point of view, which in my opinion, should be the point of view of the general public, or possibly the viewpoint of law enforcement. Instead, the article takes an ethically neutral sociological point of view, which is hardly mainstream. I would be ok with a sociological point of view as a fringe viewpoint, but the way it's written now is awful, and belongs in a different article, perhaps entitled "Organized Crime Viewed Abstractly." But this isn't an article on organized crime in general, but on Cosa Nostra in particular, anyway. Rich (talk) 04:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by this but I do not want this article to read like History Channel documentary. Kurzon (talk) 11:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * What are History Channel documentaries like? Sensationalist? If that's what they are like, we can agree on something.Rich (talk) 02:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)