Talk:Sicilian nationalism

There isn't Sicilian Nationalism
The considered political parties are not based on nationalism but on the autonomy of Sicilian Region inside Italy. I propose this article for deletion. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 16:52, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

It's ironic that a user who did not believe the article "List of Sicilians" was appropriate would NPOV this article as well.
The article already states that there are some "Sicilianist" parties that are for greater autonomy and others that are for outright independence, such as FNS and MIS. Take a look at the Sardinian nationalism article, one that includes numerous autonomist parties alongside secessionist ones, and then take the time to read the definition of nationalism and you will hopefully see that you are incorrect in your view. If that isn't the case, then the older Sicilian, Italian, and Spanish-language pages on this subject would probably have to be deleted as well. Instead of deleting the article, why not be bold and improve it? Sadistik (talk) 21:25, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of the deletion proposal and possible common solution
Probably you don't know the politics of Sicily. The political parties you talk about (MIS and FNS) are totally out of the politics of Sicily. The Party of Sicilians is autonomist and it's different to be nationalist or separatist. Moreover I think this article is redundant because the article about MIS is enough to talk about a very little movement and its ideology in Sicily. You can't use the same point of view of Catalan separatism to describe the Italian regionalism because they are different things, in different contexts and with very different influences. If you don't want to delete this page we can redirect to the article of the MIS. Do you agree with this potential solution? --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

No.
I didn't even mention Catalans. I said Sardinian nationalism. Look at that article, and then this one. They are very analogous. You are not someone with a NPOV yourself, and your agenda appears to be to delete any article that implies that Sicilians are a distinct people. Again, there are already similar articles on this subject matter on other language Wikipedias that have not encountered any hostility. Meridionalismo is simple regionalism. Sicilianism is about increased autonomism under the and/or independence. Autonomia speciale makes Sicily different from other regions. From the MpA wiki: "Il 30 luglio 2006 l'MpA sigla un patto federativo con il neonato movimento Nazionalisti Siciliani, il 21 novembre dello stesso anno raggiunge un'intesa politico-programmatica con Alleanza Siciliana di Nello Musumeci." - MpA, at the time a Sicilian rather than Southern party, were Sicilian nationalists. Sadistik (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Misunderstandings
Nello Musumeci is autonomist, He is not nationalist. The Sardinian nationalism is very different. You are writing a lot of lies about Sicily. Clearly you don't know the argument you are talking about. Please stop reverting changes, because you need consensus. And please don't offend me or I will ask a user block for you. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 22:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would read what I write.
You accuse me of offending you, when you were the one who initially questioned my POV. Nello Musumeci was the leader of Alleanza Siciliana, not Nazionalisti Siciliani, but news article from 2006 - they are all sicilianist parties. Would you deny that Lega Nord are a nationalist party? MpA were allied with them in the past as well, because they had shared goals of weakening the Italian state. Sadistik (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

We are in 2013
We are in 2013 and today Nello Musumeci is member of the Italian party People of Freedom, that it is not autonomist neither sicilian nationalist. The Lega Nord results of the last election were of 4%, the influence of the autonomist/nationalist parties you are talking about is very little not comparable to the Spanish situation. Sardinian nationalism is out from Italian Parliament and it has an irrelevant influence on the Regional Council of Sardinia. I would recomend you to update your informations. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 22:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

How is that even at all relevant?
I did not even mention the Musumeci List in this article. I listed Micciché's List, who are sicilianisti, as cited in the references. In 2012, the Sicilianist list received over 15% of the vote, and Musumeci was not part of that coalition. I said nothing of Spain, but rather Sardinia, and the Sardinian nationalism page has been around for at least a year, and their situation essentially the same as this. There is no other article about Sicilianism, which is a relevant faction in Sicily. Sadistik (talk) 22:54, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Autonomism VS Nationalism
Maybe there is a problem of meanings. Micciché is "Autonomist" and he is not "Nationalist". In Italy "Autonomism" is a lot different from "Nationalism". In Sicily the nationalist parties are FNS and MIS but they didn't take part to the last elections and they are completely out from Italian Politics (and the Sicilian one). What you are talking about is the "Autonomism" that in Italy is very similar to the American concept of "Federalism". Hence this article is not about "Nationalism". This article is about "Sicilian Autonomism". Do you agree? --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 23:06, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Lega Nord is also a federalist, autonomist party
And yet the article Padanian nationalism is largely about them. In the English-language, what we are describing is considered to be nationalism, and this article is in English. Sicily is already an autonomous region, guaranteed by the Italian constitution, while Padania is not, so for parties to want increased autonomy for an already autonomous region, that would fall under nationalism. If you look at the Nationalism article, it shows that autonomist movements are treated as nationalist in the English wiki, AND that autonomist movements and secessionist movements are grouped together in articles regularly. This article is not an exception. Sadistik (talk) 23:22, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

POV
What you said is a POV. Wikipedia puts together "Autonomist", "Nationalist" and "Separatist" movements but they are different things. I disagree with your POV. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 23:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Your POV and my POV
You are entitled to disagree with my POV, but it is still the standard on Wikipedia to put them together as I did. Like I said, if something on the page is inaccurate, please be bold and improve it by correcting or clarifying, but it's not right to delete the page, as it falls in line with the other examples I have shown, and the sicilianist movement is significant enough (Lombardo was President, Micciché won 15 seats) that it warrants an article. Sadistik (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Lombardo WAS president
8 (and not 15) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assemblea_Regionale_Siciliana#Composizione seats are irrelevant in the Regional Council Moreover in the last national election the percentage of the party of Sicilians was less than 10% of the vote in Sicily. We already have an article that talks about independentism and Sicilian nationalism (MIS). --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

He was President less than A YEAR AGO.
That falls under relevant in modern times. The MIS article is about one party, this article is about all sicilianism. And [http://www.repubblica.it/static/speciale/2012/elezioni/regionali/sicilia.html micciché's list won 15 seats out of 90 on election night. that is 1/6th of parliament.] - also, not including Grande Sud in your counting is very disingenuous, as that is Micciché's own party. Sadistik (talk) 00:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The results of Republica
The results you take in consideration must be updated, because the composition on December 11 2012 is different http://www.palermotoday.it/politica/gruppi-parlamentari-ars-.html, because the situation inside the Regional Council has changed. You want to show an irrelevant ideology as the dominant one. You are making political propaganda. But separatism in Sicily ended 50 years ago. You must be updated. Maybe you are too distant from Italy and you can't understand our country. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 00:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Now who is talking POV?
You are attempting to decide what I think and what this article was about. I never said that it was the dominant ideology of Sicily, but it is far from irrelevant. I know it changed, but I said that based on the votes, they elected 15. That was to determine popularity, which you imply isn't there. Either way, the sicilianist list received 15.4% of the vote on that platform and caused a split in the centre-right vote that led to a LGBT communist being elected President in a traditionalist region that had never elected a leftist before. If it wasn't for the Micciché bloc, Musumeci would be President... so they are obviously relevant. This argument between you and I is what is irrelevant. These parties are in parliament, and their ideology is sicilianism. Sadistik (talk) 03:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Grande Sud and personal opinions
Maybe I wasn't clear. Grande Sud is not a Sicilianist party, it is for regionalism in Italy and in particular in the South. Why do you continue to consider it as Sicilianist? The only Sicilianist Party is the Party of Sicilians that received 10% of the votes. Actually in Sicily we don’t use the term Sicilianist, we use the terms Autonomist or Regionalist. This is the reason why the article “Sicilian Nationalism” is a great mistake because in Sicily we don’t use this word.

I suppose you are from USA and maybe you have Italian origins and probably you know something about Sicily for what your parents or grandparents told you. But Sicily is light years far from the memories of the migrants. Get informed about Sicily by reading regional newspapers or the regional versions of the national newspapers. Or better come to Sicily and see the difference with your own eyes.

Honestly I think that you are trying to interpret a political context by using your personal point of view, maybe influenced by the stories of your family. It seems clear that you are trying to manipulate this article with your political ideas for the way you mentioned the governor of Sicily, Rosario Crocetta. In one of the last discussions, you mentioned Italian Nationalism and maybe you don’t know that this disappeared with the Fascism. It’s clear you have a vision of the past about Italy. You accused me "to delete any article that implies that Sicilians are a distinct people" but you wrong. I'm from Sicily and this is enough to prove that you wrong. The fact is that I respect the Neutral Point of View and this means that I don't support the "popular and folkloristic radicalisms" in wikipedia that are very common for people who talk about their own motherland.

However I won't oppose the creation of this article because you are moral responsible about an article that doesn't tell the truth or worse that is an anachronistic political propaganda if it will not be changed. Regards --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Trivialties
Musumeci is a sicilianist who seeks greater autonomy for Sicily. He has called himself such. («Sono io il garante del progetto sicilianista») Micceché has, as well («L’apertura al Pdl snatura il nostro progetto autonomista. E nessuno mi imporrà, qualcosa che non mi convince, ma non sono io a decidere. Il Pdl si adegui alla filosofia sicilianista dell’iniziativa, anche cambiando nome in Popolo della Sicilia.») - you can find hundreds of references, mostly in the past few years, to the sicilianist ideology, which is the term they are now using for autonomism. Grande Sud, in national terms, is for autonomy for all of the South, but he ran on a platform of more Sicilian autonomy in 2012. I'm aware that the most used terms are autonomist and regionalist, and do not mean to argue over minor details. I've lived in both Sicily and the mainland myself, although yes, I am a native of the U.S.

As we have discussed previously, in English, autonomist parties are thrown in with independence movements as nationalists. I know that the terminology is not identical in the Italian language, but we use the correct English-language terms for articles, and sometimes they don't translate directly. Lega Nord are autonomist and regionalist but their movement is called nationalist on the English wiki. The Sardinian autonomist parties are also listed in a "nationalist" article here, together with separatists. If you would like to modify the article to put an emphasis on the fact that autonomism is more common today than separatism, I would welcome that contribution, as it is the truth, fact, rather than opinion. I did not intend to imply on this page that MpA, PdS, etc. are identical to MIS and FNS - there is an obvious difference between wanting to make Palermo stronger and Rome weaker on one hand, and separating Palermo and Rome entirely. However, both ideologies belong in the same article. I had modeled the page on the Sardinian nationalism one, which has both separatists and autonomist parties included. However, that does not mean that it must look the same as that page.Sadistik (talk) 17:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay
Okay you're right, in English Wikipedia, Nationalism and Autonomism are put together. But I completely disagree with the ethnicity issue as I told you in your talk page. --Walter J. Rotelmayer (talk) 17:17, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Other Groups
Sicilia Nazione, this is interesting. I'll let you guys parse it though for relevance.Paolorausch (talk) 03:19, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

This is interesting, i've never heard of this group before: Siculan Independence Movement. They claim also that there is/was an active armed element of MIS operating in the 80s. It's actually a bit scary of an article, but here is is: http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1982/eirv09n15-19820420/eirv09n15-19820420_022-eyewitness_report_how_the_sicili.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paolorausch (talk • contribs) 20:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Found another one in my research, they seem to be really interested in identifying with other nationalist movements as well. Palestinian, Corsicans, etc. Here it is: Sicilian National Liberation Movement or MSLN. They are also issuing novelty drivers' licenses as a gimmick. I've been notifying a common theme around these groups that they all seem very resentful of Crocetta and PD. FNS/PSS seem to have way less momentum or activity than the more right wing groups.Paolorausch (talk) 21:55, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Found this: https://books.google.com/books?id=pGClDAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA523&dq=sicilian%20autonomism&pg=PA524#v=onepage&q=sicilian%20autonomism&f=falsePaolorausch (talk) 10:23, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Protests in Sicily
Hello. I am writing from Sicily. There are lots of people in Sicily protesting right now, they have Sicilian flags and call for independence, now, right now. Sicily is totally locked: streets and important communication ways are occupied. Independence is just a matter of minutes. The president of Sicily has already proclaimed the independence !! Yes someone can confirm? are we independent?

It was a joke ahaahhaahha


 * Hey Anonymous user. If you read above you'll see that this has kind of been discussed already. Because of the somewhat strange nature of Italian unification, Italy has a wide variety of words to discuss levels of relative independence from the unitary state. Regionalism, Autonomism, Federalism, Separatism. In the English speaking world an 'autonomous region', would generally be called a separate 'Nation' see Wales, Scotland etc,. However, it seems like there is a disconnect within the Italophone world where Nationalism seems to be associated solely with separatism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paolorausch (talk • contribs) 21:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Errors I noticed
As the title above says. First of all I noticed quite a big number of grammar errors. Now I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I tried to correct some of the ones I noticed. Then I noticed quite a big number of wrong linked pages to this page. For example I noticed how, instead of linking to Hyeronimus, the previous version of the page linked to the German Gero. Or how there were linked the wrong dynasties for example regarding the revolts of the Sicilian against the House of Anjou that in the previous version wasn't linked to the correct house but to the English one. As I said I tried to correct some of these issues but I wanted to ask if someone more competent can look over this page and try to solve all this. Thank you for the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.182.127 (talk) 10:05, 23 December 2021 (UTC)