Talk:Sicily/Archive 2

sulfur
shouldnt the sulfur mines be mentioned, sicily is 'famous for its sulfur mines' if i may believe the entry on sulfur.

129.125.103.83 (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ancient peoples of Italy?
"The original inhabitants of Sicily were three defined groups of the Ancient peoples of Italy...the Sicani...from the Iberian Peninsula, the Elymians...from the Aegean... the Sicels from Liguria..."

The phrase Ancient peoples of Italy sounds very Fascist and Rome-centric to me, as Sicily has only been part of Italy since 1860. Neither the Sicani or Elimi were Italian or from the Italian peninsula. The only Ancient people of Italy would be the Siculi; although their Italic origins are questionable, possibly being from Anatolia.

Since it's a link to another page, I suggest we keep the link, but alter it's name from the Sicily page. Is that a fair solution? --Zulux1 (talk) 04:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What does "Fascism" have to do with anything? Sicily today is officially part of the nation Italy, it has long been connected to the Italian peninsula through the Roman Republic also the Kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples are heavily linked. Non of the tribes from places now known as part of "Italy" actually originated from there since they didn't just grow out of the ground, they all moved there from somewhere else... many on the southern Italian peninsula came from Greece, etc...


 * but in the study of the Ancient peoples of the place now known as Italy, both Sicily, Sardinia and all the former independent territories on the peninsula fall within that scope. Until any of those former places, gain independence or fall within the control of an other country (ie - like Corsica) then the study of those people, are all compiled together in publications for whatever reason. - Gennarous (talk) 03:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sicilian is a dialect("dialetto")not a language
And it is not exactly correct to state that most young people speak Sicilian as a second "language".Actually, the opposite is true.The schools teach standard Italian,but most people of all ages,especially in the smaller towns and villages,speak the Sicilian dialect and only use Italian when speaking to strangers,foreigners or people in authority such as teachers,the police,civil servants,etc.The Sicilians are fiercely proud of their dialect and often use Italian very reluctantly.In addition to this,the dialect is spoken differently in each of the province,the result being that people from Catania cannot readily understand those from Palermo and vice-versa.jeanne (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Whether it's a dialect or a language depends on your definition of each. Some linguists clasify it as a language, some as a dialect of Italy; even the wikipedia article on Sicilian calls it a language. Kman543210 (talk) 01:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This argument about whether Sicilian is a dialect or a language is now old had, done to death, and doesn't really merit a response (just read Sicilian language, and look up the dozen or so references if you are really that interested). Italian sholars will certainly refer to most of the minor languages as "dialects", more as a matter of convenience that with any serious intent (modern day Italians not wishing to detract from the one, true national language).   Given that a Sicilian literature predates an Italian literature, that people can keep coming up with this old, tired (almost racist) argument that Sicilian is an Italian dialect is beyond belief.   The notion that people from Catania and Palermo cannot understand each other is exaggerated in the extreme.  Indeed, most of the great Sicilian writers came from one or the other province, and their writings are all readily understood by anyone knowledgeable in Sicilian (admittedly, there are very few people in the World interested in Sicilian literature, but that in itself is not a basis for an argument).  πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  03:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Excuse me,I have been living in Sicily for years and in fact, I am married to a Sicilian and the Sicilian people themselves use the word " dialetto" for Sicilian not "lingua" .I happen to have a close friend who is an Italian language "professoressa". She is Sicilian (from the province of Messina) and will correct me any time I use a word in "dialetto". So you see, Sicilians themselves call it a dialect. Do you live in Sicily,by the way? Also go easy on the (OLD HAT) word "racist". I am a Caucasian person, Sicilians are a Caucasian people, so where, pray does "racism" come into this discussion? Do you not know that in the province where I live the dialect changes from town to town? Oh yes and I'm not talking about the accent either. Are you going to say that the "Napolitano" dialect is also a language or the "Veneziano"? Even Sicilian dialect uses Italian grammar incorrectly. For example the word "disse".That is a remote past tense but dialect speakers use it instead of the correct form "detto". Or "che fu " instead of "che successo". Or "da" instead of "la", "frate" and "sorro" instead of "fratello" and "sorella".I could go on.How can you call such grammatical errors a "language".Does Sicilian have grammatical rules, yes or no? It is a dialect.jeanne (talk) 08:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC) I'll get my children (who are half Sicilian) to back me up.Just had a look on your userpage.You are in fact, Australian. I, by the way have a good friend who is a Catholic priest from Fiumefreddo. It's in the province of Catania. Catanese is one of the most "stretto" dialects in Sicily. But regarding Australia. I have a friend who spends her winters in Melbourne. She tells me the Sicilians who immigrated there use an ancient dialect that is no longer used here in Sicily. She could barely understand them. She is from a place not far from Fiumefreddo actually. Mr.d'Angelo,if you think that a person from Palermo would be able to readily understand someone from Paterno, you are sadly mistaken. Actually, I applaud your admirable work in maintaining sites in dialect. Sicilian should be preserved by all means but it is a dialect. And Verga is one of the greatest writers in Italian literature,especially the "Malavoglia"jeanne (talk) 08:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

jeanne (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's true, most Sicilians call it dialect, and are happy to believe the line that they have been fed for generations that Sicilian is an uncouth form of Italian. But for anyone truly knowledgeable of Sicilian (and I am not talking about Regional Italian, a mistake many make), and who are also knowledgeable of Sicilian history, and the history of the Sicilian language, will be aware:  the history of the Sicilian language is quite different to the history of the Italian language; and, Sicilian literature has an older provenance than Italian (Tuscan) literature - as all the great early Tuscan writers knew.  So from whichever way you look at it, it's impossible to make an argument that Sicilian is a dialect of Italian.  However, that Sicilian has its own dialects is true enough.  Also, there is a great mythology that Sicilians from different parts of the island can't understand each other, that they somehow speak wildly divergent dialects.  But, once again, anyone who is truly knowledgeable in the Sicilian language will be able to pick up Meli, Martoglio, Pirandello, Pitrè or any number of published authors who wrote in Sicilian, and will have little trouble reading it, and that in many instances the difference in these varieties of Sicilian are no more divergent that the difference between British and American English.  Lastly, you appear to argue that someone who might speak in Sicilian is using incorrect Italian, but the grammars of both languages are quite different - because they are separate langauges!  Sicilian most certainly does favour the remote past tense over the perfect tense, but so what?  This is common of some other romance languages.  There are dozens upon dozens of grammatical difference we could go through - what else would you expect from separate languages?  Incidentally, at the risk of coming across as an educationalist myself, the forms of Sicilian you use are incorrect.  The correct spelling would be:  dissi; chi; ddà; frati; soru.  And I don't understand how these could be viewed as incorrect forms of Italian - they are correct forms of a different language!  Lastly, you ask:  does Sicilian have a grammar?  That you could ask such question does tell me a lot.  Once again, please seek out some of the references included in this article, and don't provide any commentary unless you've researched thoroughly what you are about to write.  Incidentally, there are neapolitan and venetian forms of wikipedia, and yes, the wikipedia foundation does accept these as languages, as does Ethnologue.  --πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  13:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you read the article: Sicilian language, someone has added this bit near the intro:  "Sicilian is not used as an official language anywhere, even within Sicily. There is currently no central body, in Sicily or elsewhere, that regulates the language in any way. However, the Center for Sicilian Philological and Linguistic Studies in Palermo has been researching and publishing information on the Sicilian language since its inception in 1951. The autonomous regional parliament of Sicily has legislated to encourage the teaching of Sicilian at all schools, but inroads into the education system have been slow (Cipolla2004). The language is officially recognized in the municipal statutes of Sicilian towns, such as Caltagirone and Grammichele, in which the inalienable historical and cultural value of the Sicilian language is proclaimed. Further, the Sicilian language is to be protected and promoted under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML). However, the Italian Parliament has yet to ratify this draft law."  --πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  13:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If Sicilian was a language and not a dialect why does it borrow and corrupt so many Italian words? A separate language wouldn't do that.Being currently a resident of Sicily, and knowing Sicilians who confirm that it's dialect how can you insist otherwise? My son is beside me now and he states firmly: SICILIANO E UN DIALETTO NO LINGUA. That was my 17 year old son who attends Scuola Professionale. It's just that in Sicily most people who speak solely Siciliano are considered zaurdo. Not my words THEIRS.Sorry to offend you.jeanne (talk) 15:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Your 17 year old son says it's true - it must be true! I repeat that people commonly confuse Regional Italian (the form of Italian that might be spoken in a particular region, in this case, Sicily), with the Sicilian language.  With Regional Italian, people will take Sicilian forms and currupt Italian words - but we are not talking about the Sicilian language then, we are talking about something different!  But like any language, Sicilian borrows words from Italian (and in the past Italian has borrowed words from Sicilian).  Furthermore, like any closely related language, there are 100s, maybe 1000s of "false friends", where similar words, both derived from Latin, have taken their own separate ways over the centuries.  Have you looked through the Sicilian wikipedia?  Have you read the references attached to Sicilian language?  You have you read any of the great Sicilian writers (who wrote in Sicilian)?  If not, what on Earth are you on about??  Finally, that elements of a Sicilian society will look down anyone who uses Sicilian, does not actually mean that Sicilian is not a language!  In looking down upon those who they perceive to be ignorant for speaking a corrupt form of Italian, they in fact show their own ignorance.  πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  03:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The Sicilian people to whom I refer are teachers,priests,doctors not casalingas.I'm sure they know far more about Sicily than the son of Sicilian immigrants who lives on the other side of the world where the Sicilians typically live amongst themselves, and by their refusal to assimilate into the Anglo-Saxon dominated Australian culture, retain a form of Sicilian dialect that has not been used here in Sicily for YEARS. My Sicilian friend who has a daughter in Melbourne told me this. As for my 17 year old son being too young to cite as a reliable authority, well mate I can bl...y well assure you that when I was 17, I was far more knowledgeable than many university students are today. And Signor Pippo, if Sicilian is a language and not a dialect, to which group of languages does it belong ? Romance? By the way, how old is Sicilian? I am not being hostile to you or your efforts to preserve Sicilian.jeanne (talk) 08:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is getting really long, so I'll say just a couple of words. Sicilian (obviously a Romance language, as Sardinian is) is distinct enough from Italian to be defined a "language" in its own. If we define Catalan and Galician to be languages, and not dialect, then so Sicilian is. And there are really a load of references stating Sicilian is a language. I was born in Sicily, and I fluently speak Sicilian: and Tuscans here fail to understand a single word of my Sicilian (I mean real Sicilian, and not Italian with a Sicilian accent) when I speak. --Angelo (talk) 08:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sig.Angelo, I agree. You are Sicilian, I am not; therefore I must heed your words and accept what you say. OK as you say there is a Sicilian language (obviously the ancient Siculi were speaking a language when the Greeks arrived); but then shouldn't the article state that the Sicilian LANGUAGE is not to be confused with the Italian regional dialect which in Sicily would be naturally Sicilian and primarily spoken by the elderly and the uneducated? That way there is no confusion. The article should explain this fact:there is a Sicilian language and there is also a regional dialect. In fact at my church I once heard Christmas carols being sung by a group of young men-in Sicilian complete with instruments! It was wonderful. I also think the article should mention Sicilian customs such as the puppet shows, painted carts, presepe vivente (which my children participate in every Christmas), the lavish weddings and the great respect that is shown to the dead (when people come to view the deceased laying in his/her casket in new clothes and all the family and close friends are seated about the coffin in the parlour.)Too often, Sig.Angelo, people think of Sicily as just being associated with organised crime thanks to the media, so I think the article needs to highlight the positive aspects of Sicilian life and culture.jeanne (talk) 13:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a fact there is a (self-declared?) intellectual part of Sicily that claims that Sicilian is merely a working-class idiom, spoken only by the elderly, the poor and the uneducated. But I can ensure you Sicilian is alive and well and widely spoken, even in younger generations. As you can figure out from the corresponding article, Sicilian language is much more contemporary than you can think: it's not the language of the Siculi, the Sicani or the Elimi, but is influenced by the rich island's history and rulers, such as the Aragonese, the Angevins, the Arabs and the Normans (just to mention a few ones). Then, obviously, it's a well-known fact Sicilians easily tend to mix up Italian and Sicilian in spoken conversations (written Sicilian is a really different thing, as it's not even standardized), and this actually makes Sicilian appear closer to Italian that it really is. Just open up a Sicilian dictionary and look at the words there, you'll see lots of them definitely do not belong to Italian, including several common-use ones. I suggest you to read Dialect in order to understand more clearly the nature of the issue, which is more political than linguistical. --Angelo (talk) 13:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Sig.Angelo, politics are the guiding force in everything.Thank you for your information.It's a pity few Sicilians like to read (Mario Puzo, the author mentioned this lamentable fact in "The Godfather") because some of the greatest Italian writers were in fact Sicilian, such as Pirandello,Verga,di Lampedusa, just to name a few. I noticed when I visited Palermo,that the mentality is more open and intellectual, but on the Eastern side, the people are somewhat closed.I like Palermo a lot.The people are far more pleasant than Catania. My son commented on it as well.jeanne (talk) 14:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Demographics
I updated this section with a source from ISTAT, somebody previously claimed that Nigerians were a major immigrant community, despite there only been 267 of them, even Germans with 1707 and French with 945 have larger communities in Sicily. - Gennarous (talk) 08:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The major immigrant communities in Sicily are Albanians, Moroccans, Romanians and Ukranians. There is also a growing number of Chinese. jeanne (talk) 08:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Nigerians aren't a sizeble part of the population.
 * You forgot Tunisians, they're a major presence in Sicily (especially in the Western side, that is where I'm from). --Angelo (talk) 08:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sicilian Culture
The article fails to discuss the customs and habits of Sicilians. "La mentalità" in other words. Their love of religious ceremonies and processions, their lavish weddings and other "festas", the woman's traditional role as housewife "casalinga"jeanne (talk) 08:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC), "il bar", the "motorino" culture.
 * Those customs and habits are not that Sicilian: motorino and bar are widely diffuse in the whole Italy (not just Sicily), and the other ones you cited belong to a culture that was typical several years go, but it's now disappearing (especially the housewife figure, very uncommon in younger generations). --Angelo (talk) 08:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I live in the province of Catania in a small village. Palermo is far more modern than Eastern Sicliy. Here in my village, few women work outside the home, many children leave school at 14 years of age. Most women I know here have never read a single book in their lives and both men and women remain at home with their families until they marry.There is also the tradition of the prolonged engagement, and the "mammone" mentality of many (not ALL ) Sicilian men cannot be denied. The family can also be very oppressive as they tend to live close together even after marriage.
 * The fact some of these customs are still alive in a handful of small towns does not mean all Sicilians still have such a mentality. --Angelo (talk) 13:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course they all don't but you cannot deny that so many marriages between Sicilian men and foreign women fail on account of the "mammone" mentality. The man's mother feels her son's shirts aren't being ironed properly, the wife might prefer reading a book once in a while instead of endless housecleaning, she doesn't show respect by naming the eldest daughter after her,I could go on. No,not all men here think like that but the majority sadly do.jeanne (talk) 15:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * All these things about "foreign" women (btw, do you consider Italian women from the mainland to be "foreign" too?) is unverifiable and probably even wrong. And Sicilian naming convention for newborn babies are widely diffuse in the whole South of Italy and even (with less extent) in the rest of the country. In any case, according to all Wikipedia conventions and Manual of Styles, only sourceable and verifiable content can be featured in the article, and I doubt what you might find any reliable, non-partisan source stating and confirming what you're saying. --Angelo (talk) 17:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * By foreign I mean the Germans,Swedes,English and other pretty, blonde touristas who marry Sicilian men and discover they have to be a badante for some of the more traditional kinds of Sicilian.Just watch "Posta Per Te" and see how many foreign women leave their husbands because of the interfering "suocera".Again I'm not saying ALL but quite a few.
 * If they're "quite a few" then it's just not worthy of being mentioned in the article. That's all. In addition, Sicily has one of the lowest density of immigrants in the whole country and the average of marriages between Sicilian men and foreign women is far lower than in the rest of Italy (just the 6% of marriages in Sicily involve a foreign woman, against a nationwide 11% average of marriages between an Italian man and a foreign woman). --Angelo (talk) 18:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "quite a few" in English means "un bel po" .It's a common expression. And if you don't believe Sicilian men are seeking foreign wives read the Best of Sicily" magazine on-line.That backs up my comments.jeanne (talk) 05:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right that not mentioning the Òpira dî pupi in this article is a bit of a travesty. There is an article in the Sicilian wikipedia  and the Italian.  I once included a small mention in the article on marionettes.  Also, the fact that it is a Unesco heritage listed cultural artifice means that the English wikipedia most definitely should have a separate article on it.  Also, see here:  Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity.  The sociological phenomenon you mention, the conflict between wife and mother-in-law, has been documented before in sociological studies of the island.  If these can be tracked down (and I've come across one once before), then as Angelo suggests, it can be mentioned with reference to them.  πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  23:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Sicilians abroad
Shouldn't there be a section on the influence of Sicilian immigrants on other countries? Not to reopen old wounds, but, in the United States, the adjective "Sicilian" means one very specific thing, and it has nothing to do with Archimedes. There might be some justice in mentioning that more prominently. - Agur bar Jacé (talk) 18:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, you're talking about guys like Nick LaRocca, Frank Sinatra and Frank Zappa? Well I think their prominent cultural achievements would probably be more fitted to the country which their parents emmigrated to, or perhaps on the Sicilian American article. - Gennarous (talk)

Norwegian conquest
Shouldnt the Norwegian conquest of Sicily in the year first millenium be mentioned in this article?Nastykermit (talk) 14:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Norwegian conquest? I'm not sure what you are referring to - a Viking invasion?  The Normans?  Can you be a bit clearer? What do you mean by "in the year first millenium"?  1000AD or something earlier?  I have to admit, I've never come across a Norwegian conquest anywhere, but then again, the Byzantine period (~550-850) is sometimes a bit lean in the history books that I own.  But I'm very happy to be pointed in the right direction if you have some references.  πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  22:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Pizza
Didn't pizza originate in Naples? Most Neopolitans claim that pizza is their creation. I don't know, this article while rich in historical details is more of a PR piece than encyclopedian article. Also the section on culture is still empty.05:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk)
 * I too had doubts when I saw that - I reckon it should come out - you know you can do it yourself? Please highlight the bits that appear to you as you describe them, and we'll sort it out (I've contributed very little to this particluar article, by the way).   πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  08:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually Ian Spackman has already taken it out. πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  08:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Mafia..
I know, stereotype. But there is no doubt regarding the origins of Casa Nostra and the mafias influence in sicily even today, despite being well brushed under the carpet. Shouldn't it be mentioned in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.5.35.222 (talk) 17:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as the history of Sicily is concerned, the mafia is a bit like the modern state of Italy, it's a drop in the ocean. Furthermore, viewed in world terms, there is actually nothing particularly special about Sicily's "contribution" to the "field" of organised crime (if anyone thinks that the concept of causing violence to derive a benefit was introduced to the World by Sicilians, they know nothing about human history).  Even in Italy itelf, other crime syndicates long took over the primacy that the Cosa Nostra once had.  Nevertheless, there absolutely should be a mention, especially in understanding contemporary Sicily, and the corruption of political institutions in both Sicily, but more importantly, in the whole of Italy (afterall, each have often relied on their existence on the the other).  πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  23:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I was very suprised to see no mention of the mafia at all in these article. Even if exaggerated in popular culture, this should be mentioned. Jalwikip (talk) 09:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Quotes
I want to clarify my reasons for reverting the quotes. I'm not against quotes in an encyclopedia; however, I do think that they shouldn't be random quotes randomly placed throughout the article. Just like the pictures, they have to tie in somehow. For example, what is the significance of the quote, who said it and why, and can a lead sentence tie the quote into a certain aspect of Sicily? We shouldn't just put in quotes to put them, but they should relate to a specific point in the article. I hope that makes sense. Kman543210 (talk) 03:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Kman - it sort of make sense (I think!) - I accept that en.wiki appears to use quotes far less than it.wiki, which has a penchant for opening most articles with a quote. I see the quotes as adding a bit of colour and interest to an article - no different to lots of other devices used through wikipedia.  I put in two quotes.  The first one is a very well known quote from Goethe, that he included in his book on his travels through Italy (sorry, I don't have it in front of me at the moment).  You would not say that it is completely irrelevant (afterall, its about his general impression on Sicily), but I can accept  that the question arises:  why this quote, and not one from Bill Bryson telling us that it is an arsehole of a place.  Of course, this is a question that arises in virtually every instance this sort of quote is used.  On the Giuseppe di Lampedusa quote, its from one of Sicily's best known writers, whose book, The Leopard, and the film, is quite well known in the English speaking world.  It's a quasi-negative comment about Sicilians generally, from a Sicilian, and it seemed to fit reasonably well where I put it.  You will note in the talk page that someone makes the comment that this article reads a bit too much like a travel brochure - and there is some truth in that (although, in my view, most wikipedia articles on places read pretty much the same way).  The fact that the mafia is not mentioned is also a small gap, one that I hope I can fix in the near future (without overstating its importance in Sicilian history, which is, in my view, miniscule).  In the meantime, I thought the di Lampedusa quote went some way to addressing this percieved imbalance tending towards positivity.  --πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  03:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, I just noticed this Goethe quote is used in the article on him - one would have thought it has as much, if not more, relevance here than in there! πιππίνυ δ -  (dica)  03:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Eurasian or African?
Hi, I'm a little confused as the exact position of Italy on the Eruasian plate. In my oceanography textbook Sicily is shown as being on the African plate with the plate boundary running through the straight of Messina. I did a little searching and I found other maps that show the boundary running horizontally through Sicily dividing it in half and others that show the boundary running south of the island of entirely. Is the exact boundary not clearly defined or something?

Also, I'd really appreciate it if someone could explain to me exactly what the Adriatic plate is and what its boundaries are because I haven't been able to find any clear pictures of it. Si all of Italy on it or just the eastern half of the peninsula? Thanks so much for your help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.170.150.224 (talk) 02:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)