Talk:Sick man of Europe

the UK
As the article says, this was once said of the UK, usually by the Conservatives, but are their any citations from outside the UK to add to this section of the article?

Philip Cross 20:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I've never heard this term applied to anyone but the UK... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.132.242.1 (talk) 12:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I also wondered this: Wikipedia in other languages has no citations for this use at all except one in the French version which cites a biography of Margaret Thatcher in stub article very obviously with a bias towards the political right. The similarities in language over the various translations make it look rather as if they have simply copied an outline from the English version. Paul S (talk) 10:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I've heard this term often applied to Scotland...
...particularly, with regard to the physical health of the people of Scotland, which has been very poor statistically in comparison with other European nations.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 17:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Italy was also a sick man of Europe, it seems that most countries have held the title. Gomez2002 13:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I am more interested in the origins of the expression. It does not appear that Seymour's letters are easily available, though if anyone else has found them, please let me know. I have tracked the comments to a very reliable source: Harold Temperley’s England and the Near East (London: Longmans, Greens and Co., 1936), p. 272. Temperley did see the actual letters and asserts that Nicholas's words were actually cleaned up. "What he really said was omitted in the Blue Book from a mistaken sense of decorum. He said not the ‘sick man’ but the ‘bear dies…the bear is dying… you may give him musk but even musk will not long keep him alive.’” [272, and T cites: F.O. 65/424. “From Seymour, No. 87 of February 21, 1853. This and other despatches fill up the gaps in the conversations as published.”] In fact, Temperley then argues that Nicholas was almost obsessed with the Ottoman's empire's sickliness and used the phrase quite often. So, even though he did not use the phrase "of Europe," he seems to have originated most of the metaphor. I plan to add to the page, but want to confirm a few things first.Mrbaker1917 (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I have now added considerably to the "Origin" section, quoting a reliable historian and even the original published source: Parliamentary Papers. Accounts and Papers: Thirty-Six Volumes: Eastern Papers, V. Session 31 January-12 August 1854, Vol. LXXI (London: Harrison and Son, 1854), doc. 1, p. 2.--140.247.40.211 (talk) 21:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologize. I was not logged in, when I made the above comment, so the four tildes did not work.--Mrbaker1917 (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the earliest (so far in my research) mention of the complete phrase "sick man of Europe" in a journalistic publication in the New York Times, 12 May 1860. It is a fascinating article and suggests the way the phrase will be used throughout its history. So, I decided to include a longer quotation from the article in the Origin section of the page. I would love to know if anyone has found an earlier reference to the complete phrase.--Mrbaker1917 (talk) 15:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Modern Use
Is it really worth listing the phrase if only one source uses a relatively common term at the country? I would not be suprised if every significant European nation has been called that at least once a year by at least one source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.150.88 (talk) 02:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

so who isnt
seems like every country in europe is sick. better question would be who isnt the sick man of europe rather than who is —Preceding unsigned comment added by POOPOOJERRY (talk • contribs) 09:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Turkey
The term was and is only used for Turkey. what a shitty wikipedia article! You cannot make an entry, only because some clown uses "the sick men of europe" as a reference to a country. Taditionally it is a nickname for turkey, nothing else —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.49.94 (talk) 20:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * In America, it only refers to the 19th-20th century Ottoman Empire. Period. Other uses, even in Europe, I suspect, were transitory and forgotten. Student7 (talk) 02:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Poor article; a lot of information on the phrase's subsequent use has been removed
It is a ridiculous decision to remove the other countries, such as Italy, Greece, Germany and the United Kingdom, from this article.

Far better would have been to expand the article in order to deal with countries that have been regarded as sick men in the twentieth and twenty-first century.

For example: Germany in the early part of this century, Italy and Greece in the last few years.

Better still would have been to comment on the expansion of this term metaphorically, e.g. in the case of Italy which could be seen as suffering from a long-term disease, compared with countries which have suffered short and sharp illnesses.

I would include this personally, but have attempted to do so in the past only to have the information removed by those who assume they are better.

Yours faithfully,

Disgusted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.128.230 (talk) 16:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

New image
I'm not keen into replacing images from an article, especially as I really like the cartoon already on the article, but I have just upload the image attached, which is from 1898, relates to Turkey and actually uses "The Sick Man of Europe" in the cartoon. I will leave it to other interested parties if they would like to replace the present image, find someway of maybe using both or just ignoring it. FruitMonkey (talk) 14:37, 25 February 2014 (UTC)