Talk:Sidney Crosby/Archive 2

Good source
Here's a good source on his personal life.-Wafulz (talk) 03:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent Sidney Crosby website
Sidney Crosby. An excellent website filled with stats, biography, pictures, videos, and more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sidneycrosbyfansite (talk • contribs) 02:32, March 5, 2008


 * It doesn't really have any information this article doesn't have.-Wafulz (talk) 03:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not exist as a promotional vehicle for people and their websites. Resolute 05:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not a registered user to edit a protected page BUT...the page incorrectly states that Crosby was the youngest captain in the NHL...this is incorrect...As correctly written in wiki on Brian Bellows Page: "During his tenure with the North Stars, he served as interim captain from January 1984 until May 1984, becoming (at 19 years and 4 months) the youngest captain ever in the NHL (a distinction often incorrectly attributed to Sidney Crosby, who was 19 years and 9 months old when named captain of the Pittsburgh Penguins, and over 20 years old before playing his first game as captain)." Crosby's page should be edited to reflect that while he was the youngest permanent captain--he was not the youngest player to be honored with the Captain's C. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.112.43 (talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

New record
Some add Crosby's new record:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_562413.html

"It snapped a 1-1 tie and sent a jolt of electricity through the Penguins' bench (it also was the fastest goal at the start of a period in Penguins playoff history)."129.97.122.23 (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Somebody update his NHL +/-
I am unable to edit the main page. Crosby's NHL cumulative +/- is incorrect (should be +36 at my glance). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.182.136 (talk) 05:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Also, the career penalty minutes need a similar update. 99.236.5.210 (talk) 02:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms
This page makes no mention of the widespread criticism of Sydney Crosby's repeated diving, late hits, and unsportsmanlike conduct. Any objective account should at least mention the controversies that have followed him through every game of his professional career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelti (talk • contribs) 15:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's because only sore losers and whiners say it.  Grsz  talk  15:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure every game of Crosby's career has focused on his leadership/playmaking/etc, and not on contrived controversies. On a more formal note, this is a biography of a living person, so it has to adhere to very strict standards. All superstars get accused of diving. All superstars do dive at one point or another. To treat these accusations as "widespread criticism" is an exaggeration at best, and libelous at worst.-Wafulz (talk) 15:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any living player more widely criticised for diving than Sydney Crosby. Sean Avery's wiki page describes him as a pest, and the most hated player in the league. It describes his actions in round 1 as inappropriate. It refers to controversial and unverifiable on-ice events, such as Georges Laraques accusations of racist comments by Avery. Seems like a double-standard to me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelti (talk • contribs) 15:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a double-standard, anything can be added or removed if it is/isn't sourced. The "Sean Avery Rule" received widespread coverage, and is sourced to a reliable source: ESPN. As for Crosby, the only people who make a fuss are you, fans like you, and players like Avery, who get pissed when they get beat.  Grsz  talk  15:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You are not aware of ANY living player that has been criticized as much for diving? Your memory is perhaps short, or maybe mine is suspect, but I have heard these things for years about many players, Bill Barber comes to mind as does a guy that wore 99... Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget this guy.... Anyway, Sean Avery is the most notorious pest in the league, and one of the most controversial. It's not hard to find good sources. Like I said before, the controversy about him diving is contrived, and seems to rear its head when he's playing well, or against a team with a significant media following.-Wafulz (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Above all, it's hard to say that Crosby is hated by all the other players when he won the Lester B. Pearson Award - the one that's awarded by the players.  Grsz  talk  16:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It'd be a clear WP:BLP violation, anywho. --SmashvilleBONK! 16:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Crosby diving has been discussed in the press. Such as Here, Here, Here, and Here. The wikipedia article does not present this criticism in an objective light by omitting it. And while retired players may have faced diving accusations, perhaps I should have said that Crosby is the most notorious ACTIVE player for diving. --Pelti (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, this page falls under POV when it doesn't include certain things to make him look good. He has been widley critisized for getting a C he didn't earn, and his consistant diving and bitching to the refs when it's not called. Yet theirs no mention of it. Real objective. Killswitch Engage (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you have reliable non-opinion sources which adhere to WP:BLP that state that he is a diver? --SmashvilleBONK! 20:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * All the sources posted by that other dude. Don Cherry is a famed analyst, and has been critical of his diving. Killswitch Engage (talk) 21:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Every athlete is going to be criticized by their opposition or fans of their opposition. And Don Cherry's opinions are just that - his opinions. Putting a "criticism" section in is completely non-NPOV. To claim that not having it violates WP:NPOV means that you haven't read WP:NPOV. --SmashvilleBONK! 16:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Killswitch, there are a few things wrong with your reasoning.
 * Widely criticized for captaincy: You need to provide some evidence for this. Don Cherry is the only notable example I can think of, and that was for Crosby being named assistant captain. The onus is on you to provide evidence that the criticism is widespread, particularly when it's very easy to find widespread praise for his leadership. Also note that Crosby denied the captaincy once because he felt he was too young.
 * Consistent diving: Other teams will always accuse the opposing star of diving. I don't recall Cherry ever harping on Crosby for diving. More importantly, how many diving penalties has he actually been assessed? A notorious diver ought to have at least a handful to his name.
 * "Whining and bitching:" That's already in the article, so I don't know why you're complaining.-Wafulz (talk) 19:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Alas, there is one issue, and that is that the refs will not catch every dive, nor, in our friends case, will they call it. I am currently trying to find some sources, so please, stop the fucking harping. Killswitch Engage (talk) 20:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And throwing in someone's opinions into an article will violate NPOV and be removed thusly. Unless you can find facts or an official statement from the NHL, your argument at this point is moot. --SmashvilleBONK! 21:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Without sources and wording it as the opinion of those sources it would violate WP:BLP anyways. -Djsasso (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What about Brian Bellows?
I thought Bellows was the youngest captain in NHL history. I know Bellows wore the North Stars C during half of the 1983-84 season, due to injured captain Craig Hartsburg's absence from the line-up? But we have him (and all other fill-in captains) listed as 'captains'. GoodDay (talk) 18:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The NHL lists Crosby as the official record holder. I think the key is Bellows was an interim captain.-Wafulz (talk) 18:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Problem is, the North Stars article lists Bellows as having been captain. The NHL team articles have adopted the style (which IMHO is incorrect), of not allowing the interim tags. Also, Bellows was (in the past) mentioned as the yougest NHL captain. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that means the North Stars' article is technically incorrect. Either way, it's not something that should affect Crosby's article.-Wafulz (talk) 18:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact of the matter is, Crosby is not technically the youngest person to ever wear the C in any capacity, whether it be full time or part time. The NHL conveniently forgot about Bellows and gave Crosby the record, which I disagree with. It should be noted as well that the NHL's residant diver being given the C was criticized.Killswitch Engage (talk) 18:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems yes the Bellows was the captain of the Stars, though, in an interim capacity. I find it hard to believe that the NHL would get such a thing wrong.  That said the North Stars article lists him as having been a captain.  The part about Crosby being the "NHL's residant (sic) diver" is irrelevant.  People criticize often when a player is named captain.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Interim Captain is still the Captain in the same way that Interim Head Coach is still the Head Coach. If you get the C and show up in the box score as the captain, you are the captain. So - if this article is a GA nominee and has a blatantly false claim in it...then it's probably not going to pass. --SmashvilleBONK! 19:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The NHL and other reliable sources have the final say on the record. What we think is irrelevant.-Wafulz (talk) 19:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well then, I don't see this passing GA.Killswitch Engage (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen a source from the NHL. When it's clearly not true, reliable sources don't mean a thing. That's why newspapers print corrections. Furthermore, it's not what we "think". There are reliable sources that clearly show that Brian Bellows was captain of the North Stars at a younger age than Sidney Crosby. If you leave in false info, this article will not pass a GA review. --SmashvilleBONK! 19:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the easy solution is to note that Crosby was the youngest player to be named his team's permanent captain. That said, when the captain is injured, and another player wears the C in his absence, that is considerably different than a player being named the captain.  This is Bellows circumstnaces.  I don't know of a single team that lists who wore the C during injury replacements.  The media guides I have certainly make no mention of such instances.  They only list the full-time captains.  In this case, the NHL is not incorrect in what it is saying. Resolute 19:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is a source hosted by the NHL saying that yes, Crosby is the youngest. Here is a source from Yahoo Sports that says Bellows is not the youngest precisely because he was interim.-Wafulz (talk) 19:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's also worth noting that Vincent Lecavalier also held the record, despite beind older than Bellows.-Wafulz (talk) 19:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

As much as I'd like to remove the interims from the current & defunct NHL team articles? I know I'd be reverted, due to the fact that some NHL team sites list their interims among the captains (example: Blackhawks listing Bob Murray & Kings listing Luc Robitaille). -- GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo Sports is hardly a reliable source. The man who said so about Bellows is a columnist. He shared his opinion. The NHL site is reliable, but as stated, it means nothing when the facts are technically false. This is going very fast into WP: LAME.Killswitch Engage (talk) 22:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you going to do anything other than threaten me with a failed GA and WP:LAME? The burden of proof is on you. Either present some good sources or go do something more productive.-Wafulz (talk) 22:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What do you want sources of? That he served as captain in 1984? Regardless of what the NHL or any source says, 18 years and 4 months is less than 18 years and 9 months. It's also not a threat - it's a fact...an article will not pass GA if it has false information in it. --SmashvilleBONK! 23:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well regardless of what you say, the NHL recognizes a difference between an interim captain and a full captain. Even if it somehow is recognized and the NHL has made this mistake for 20+ years, the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth.-Wafulz (talk) 00:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's taking that policy to the extreme, isn't it? I mean, clearly one number is bigger than the other number. --SmashvilleBONK! 01:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The NHL regards interim captains differently from full-time selected captions. I can't really explain it to you any other way.-Wafulz (talk) 02:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I posted this and it did not get posted, dunno how.... anyway, consider Gretzky, he was in his first year, but he was not considered a rookie. The league made a determination that WHA players were not rookies (while they considered Soviet Elite League players rookies).  Perhaps this is similar.  Now, I have no cites or anything....Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It really is quite simple, the NHL does not recognize being an interim captain as being a full on captain. As such it is correct that Crosby is the youngest captain. Whether /you/ think an interim captain is a full captain is POV. It's not taking the policy to the extreme at all. What the NHL says goes as far as records go. And the NHL says an interim captain is not an official captain. -Djsasso (talk) 14:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to be POV. I want this article to reach GA status. Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way...we need a source that explains it that way. But not a mailbag. --SmashvilleBONK! 16:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * When did I threaten you, sir? I merley pointed out that with blatantly false information, and the source reporting that false information, this page will not pass GA until we figure something out. I say, because there is such a debate about, that it should be removed from the page until we can come to an agreemant.Killswitch Engage (talk) 18:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There isn't actually much debate, you seem to be the only one totally arguing against it. It is no different than the example mentioned above where Wayne Gretzky even though it was his first year was not considered a Rookie by the NHL. It is not blatantly false information. Sidney Crosby is the youngest Captain ever in the NHL. Brian Bellows was the youngest Interim Captain ever in the NHL. -Djsasso (talk) 18:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Smashville and I agree with each other. I've put the GA on hold for the time being, until we come to something, or can find an undisputable, non-blatantly false source. Killswitch Engage (talk) 18:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So the fact the NHL says he holds the record is not a good enough source? To me that is undisputable and makes it blatantly true. To be honest what you need is a source that undisputably makes Bellows the youngest, not the other way around. So this is a problem on the Brian Bellows page not the Sidney Crosby page. -Djsasso (talk) 18:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, whatever, I'mk not arguing with walls, but don't bitch at me when this fails GA. Killswitch Engage (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But seriously what better reference could there be than the actual people who decide who holds a record? -Djsasso (talk) 19:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's actually a good point. It's kind of like the whole Roger Maris asterisk deal and Secretariat's Preakness time. Maris held the record, but MLB wouldn't recognize Maris on a technicality and Pimlico still doesn't recognize Secretariat despite video evidence. If the NHL says it's the record, then it's the official record. I'm on the "leave it in" side...but perhaps we should make mention of Bellows? --SmashvilleBONK! 19:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no problem mentioning Bellows. -Djsasso (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't realize I'd hit a nerve, when I mentioned the Bellows case. GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: The NHL franchises (current & defunct) seem to have their own definitions of their respective captaincies. However, I guess the NHL front office, would have the final word. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised your even allowing Bellows to be mentioned. It seems Wikipedia favours Crosby as much as the NHL turns a blind eye to his diving. I'm done this argument, but I'm still looking for something, ANYTHING, that shows Bellows is the true record holder. Killswitch Engage (talk) 16:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good luck, let us know if you find anything. We'll all be hanging out at WP:CROSBYCABAL.-Wafulz (talk) 16:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

GA
I'd love to help get this article to GA status. Any specific tasks that I could help out with?  Enigma  message 23:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)