Talk:Siege of Antwerp (1914)

Move
Moved page as the commons category Siege of Antwerp was already occupied.Keith-264 (talk) 10:16, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, I also support this move. If anything, the siege of Antwerp in WWI is actually much less notable than several previous ones, inc. Siege of Antwerp (1584-1585). For the record too, since this has now been moved, I have made "Siege of Antwerp" into the disamig page previously found at Siege of Antwerp (disambiguation). I fear that this might create quite a few links that need fixing, but it seems the only rational solution. Brigade Piron (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much, I couldn't think of another way to put material into the commons page; I'm far from sure about the process though so if I've missed something, please let me know.Keith-264 (talk) 13:09, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Fortifications
The OH has them outmoded and unable to withstand 6" shells rather than modernised.Keith-264 (talk) 15:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Will continue the siege narrative tomorrow.Keith-264 (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * PS apologies for the obsolete 1920s place names.;O)Keith-264 (talk) 00:30, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have reservations about regrading the article, because the material I have added is Anglocentric and needs balancing with material about the Belgians and Germans (who are almost anonymous), the article needs more context about the effect of the Race to the Sea and the operations on the coast, which affected the siege and were influenced by it. I have neglected the international aspects of the siege to concentrate on getting military events finished; the civilians in the city and the Dutch across the border are all but invisible. It'll be a while before I can look in Sheldon 1914 so the German view and facts and figures (casualties etc) pertaining to the besiegers will have to wait unless someone else joins in (which is why I added a casualties section). I hope to add a paragraph to subsequent operations to link the page to the Yser, Race and 1st Ypres later tonight. OK?Keith-264 (talk) 18:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll try and add material on the Belgians when I get access to my copy of again. It's the official Belgian account of the war, and I anticipate it will have a sizeable section on the battle but certainly won't solve the Dutch/German problem, any thoughts? P.S. Have you got any material about the Zeppelin bombing of the city? Dutch wiki mentions 140 bombs dropped on the city by them, and I'd imagine their involvement is pretty significant considering the date. Brigade Piron (talk) 19:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll have a neb in the RAF OH. I'm waiting for Sheldon 1914 which should help with the German side. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 20:17, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Deficiences
Background: Needs short description of invention of Belgium, neutrality and link to 1939 treaty. Military preparations - plans, fortesses, Nat Red', anti-Fr as well as anti-Ger. Description of Antwerp defences in particular. Description of operations from beginning August with links to Frontiers, Haelen, Liege etc Withdrawal from Gette to NR.

Prelude: What the Gers were up to, vacuum created by Great Retreat

Siege: The Boche

Aftermath: paragraph on retreats to Yser and Ypres. Casualties:more detail195.195.236.131 (talk) 11:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Milhist assessment
G'day, I have assessed this article as C-class in the Milhist assessment scale. It is very close to B class, IMO, though - it just needs a few more citations. I have marked where I think these are required. If these can be added, I will gladly update the assessment, or if you would like someone else to assess the article, please list it at WP:MHA. Good work with improving the article and good luck for taking it further. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks mate, it's on the assessment board.Keith-264 (talk) 15:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to get the translation of GOH 1914 through the library, which I hope to mine for missing data about the German army for the infobox etc.Keith-264 (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * So it's a B then; I suggest that it's deficient in the course and consequences of British involvement and events elsewhere in Belgium and France, the Germans are too anonymous (GOH 1914 should help with facts and figures) and a nod to airpower and the Dutch would be nice. I'll keep an eye out for sources. I uploaded a few maps gleaned from ex-copyright sources to Commons to the Belgian pages.Keith-264 (talk) 09:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The Times Encyclopaedia has commentary on German atrocities against the civilian population and infiltrators in the city, are there any post-war references to this?Keith-264 (talk) 14:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

New campaignbox? Suggestion
Greetings all, at the moment the pages are spread among the Western Front, Battle of the Frontiers and Race to the Sea boxes. I think a new campaignbox, "Military Operations: Flanders 1914" or some such might be a good idea. Anyone interested? RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 08:42, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds like an idea, though "Flanders" doesn't really have the right scope (no Liège or Namur which are in Wallonia). I suggest a "German invasion of Belgium" or "Battle of Belgium (1914)" one, like the French have on Modèle:Palette Bataille de Belgique (1914) Brigade Piron (talk) 08:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I like Flanders because it's the OH usage and covers France as well as Belgium but clearly you're right that southern Belgium doesn't count. I thought that Maubeuge and the Sambre/Charleroi would fit as bookends to the invasion in and advance out of Belgium. Feel free to modify the draft box. How about "German invasion of Belgium 1914"? RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 09:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Military Operations: Belgium and northern France 1914?Keith-264 (talk) 09:27, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Went ahead.Keith-264 (talk) 13:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

German OH
Added some gleanings from GOH 1914 I (part II will have more detail) and then tried altering the headers to split the siege and battle sections. Keith-264 (talk) 10:21, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

("RFC")
They aren't scare quotes. Keith-264 (talk) 18:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Austro-Hungarians present?
I notice the Infobox mentions the Austro-Hungarian empire as a belligerent in the battle but I see no mention of any of their personnel being present. Ought their flag to be taken out?Cloptonson (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * They provided the 305 mm guns (and crews I think)Keith-264 (talk) 20:50, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Frankly, even if the personnel were not present I think the importance of Austro-Hungarian heavy artillery to the outcome of the battle means their flag is not out of place in the infobox.—Brigade Piron (talk) 07:43, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Archaic names of towns
A modern reader using a modern map to find his or her way around the field of action would have trouble using the town names used in the article. Most of these are the largely archaic Francophone versions of these names. Nowadays the Dutch version of the name is used. While many still remember Ypres as the French name for Ieper, who now knows that Nieuwpoort was called Nieuport in French or Dixmuide was called Dixmude? I see that a start was made using the modern names, followed by the French name in parentheses, but would it not be more logical to use the modern names, followed by the historical name in parentheses upon their first occurrence? Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 23:42, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The article uses English names because the article is in English in English Wiki. Using the names the English used at the time with modern versions in brackets is OK. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

In popular culture
W.G. Sebald's novel Austerlitz contains a lengthy description and critique of the failings of the ring of fortifications around Antwerp. Perhaps worth a mention here. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I doubt that a novel can count as a Reliable Sourc3e. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)