Talk:Siege of Ganja (1804)

POV
In case another pov-pusher hops in and tells us that they were "independant" or anything alike it. Its called Russo-Persian/Russo-Iranian War for a reason, and not Russo-Khanate wars or Russian-Azerbaijani wars. It has always been documented as a cession by the Iranian/Persian ruler to Russia of its territories, and nothing else. Them having various forms of autonomy, being vassals, etc is a totally different thing, which is not implied with such edits.

"The Treaty of Gulistan, which was signed on 12 October 1813, provided for the incorporation into the Russian Empire of vast tracts of Iranian territory, including the khanates of Karabakh, Ganja, Sheki, Shirvan, Derbent, Kuba, Baku and Talysh." - Swietochowski, Tadeusz. Russia and Azerbaijan. (New York: Columbia Press, 1995) p 5

"The term Khanate referred here to an area that was governed by the hereditary or appointed ruler with the title of khan or beglerbegi (equivalent to Pasha in the Ottoman Empire) who performed a military and/or administrative function for the central government. By the nineteenth century there were nine khanates in Transcaucasia under (nominal) Persian control: the Khanates of Karabakh (Qarabagh) with its center at Shusha (Shushi), Ganja (Ganje) with Ganja as its centre, Erivan, Baku, Shaki (...). - Bournoutian, George, Eastern Armenia in the last decades of Persian rule, 1807-1828: a political and socioeconomic study of the khanate of Erevan on the eve of the Russian conquest Undena Publications, 1982 p 3

"In Tsitsianov's attack on Ganja the Iranians saw a direct invasion of their country's territory. (...)" - William Bayne Fisher et al. The Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 7 p 332

"Ganja was ruthlessly sacked, with some 3,000 people killed and thousands more expelled to Iran. Russian attacks on the khanates, which Iran considered vassals, served as the casus belli for Fath Ali Shah". - Timothy C. Dowling. Russia at War: From the Mongol Conquest to Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Beyond ABC-CLIO, 2 dec. 2014 p 728

According to Prof. Svante Cornell:

In 1812 Russia ended a war with Turkey and went on the offensive against Iran. This led to the treaty of Gulistan in 1813, which gave Russia control over large territories that hitherto had been at least nominally Iranian, and moreover a say in Iranian succession politics. The whole of Daghestan and Georgia, including Mingrelia and Abkhazia, were formally ceded to Russia, as well as eight Azeri Khanates (Karabakh, Ganja, Sheki, Kuba, Shirvan, Talysh, Baku, and Derbent). However as we have seen, the Persians soon challenged Russia’s rule in the area, resulting in a military disaster. Iran lost control over the whole of Azerbaijan, and with the Turkemenchai settlement of 1828 Russia threatened to establish its control over Azerbaijan unless Iran paid a war indemnity. The British helped the Iranians with the matter, but the fact remained that Russian troops had marched as far as south of Tabriz. Although certain areas (including Tabriz) were returned to Iran, Russia was in fact at the peak of its territorial expansion.

Oh and what about the actual Gulistan treaty of 1813 itself? It specifically mentions the transfer/cession of the territories of/by Persia to the Russians, as the war was between these two and they were the only ones having any say in the whole game. Not a single mention of any "Khan", not a single mention of any so-called "de facto" independent ruler, only the Persian Shah and the Russian Tsar.Terms of the Gulistan treaty - (Russian-language document). - LouisAragon (talk) 03:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * These territories were formerly under control of Persia. Yes, the khans depend on Persian shah, but they also had semi-independent policy. According to Tadeusz Swietochowski (Russian Azerbaijan, 1905-1920, 2004, p. 2):"In 1747 Nadir Shah, the strong ruler who had established his hold over Persia eleven years earlier, was assassinated in a palace coup, and his empire fell into chaos and anarchy. These circumstances effectively terminated the suzerainty of Persia over Azerbaijan, where local centers of power emerged in the form of indigenous principalities, independent or virtually so, inasmuch as some maintained tenuous links to Persia’s weak Zand dynasty. Thus began a half-century-long period of Azerbaijani independence, albeit in a condition of deep political fragmentation and internal warfare. Most of the principalities were organized as khanates, small replicas of the Persian monarchy, including Karabagh, Sheki, Ganja, Baku, Derbent, Kuba, Nakhichevan, Talysh, and Erivan in northern Azerbaijan and Tabriz, Urmi, Ardabil, Khoi, Maku, Maragin, and Karadagh in its southern part."

See also John Baddeley. The Conquest of the Caucasus. P 68-69:"In 1804 Tsitsianoff, with about 10,000 men and 20 guns, marched on Erivan, another nominally independent khanate at that time actually threatened by a Persian army, but, for once, failed." Russia in the Nineteenth Century. Volume II of The History of Russia, 1953. P. 52:"The khanates of Eastern Transcaucasia were in part semi-independent state structures and in part vassals of Iran, for instance the Khanate of Erevan, which had grown up on the territory of Armenia, or of Georgia, such as the Khanate of Ganja In Azerbaijan." As you can see the khanates were not administrative unit of Iran, they were only vassals of Iran. --Interfase (talk) 03:34, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Only problem here is that Azerbaijani nationalist bigots are trying to ignore historical facts and spread their myths of "eternal freedom". --MehrdadFR (talk) 11:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Only problem here is that some users trying to ignore the fact that the khanates were only the vassals of Iran, but not the part of it. And you MehrdadFR before write something here first read Civility and try to adhere to this rule. --Interfase (talk) 17:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


 * @Interfase, this debate is an old one . As the original writer of the article I can tell there has been no clear cut distinction between suzerainty and territorial unity in that time . The main determinant of relations between central government and peripheral khanates was the power of Shah in center in times of weakness , any khanate was independent and in the time of power there were biglerbegi's or vali's . Despite all that , because of Javad Khan's was from Qajar clan , he was the closest among all Khans of that region to the Qajar dynasty and in last attack of Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar to Georgia and sack of Tbilisi , Javad Khan was right hand of Qajar shah and tend to call him uncle . So I think that is reasonable if we consider him as a lord in Qajar dynasty . The text that he wrote also shows that . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

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On Azerbaijan
hey, good day! The article mention 3,000–7,000 inhabitants of Ganja getting executed. So it is not only a battle, but mass execution of thousands of civilians. And if you want to claim that Ganja was not a majority-Azerbaijani city, provide sources. Also, would be better if you avoided edit warring. Cheers! --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  15:23, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, massacres are quite normal in war, it does not necessarily indicate anti-sentiment against a certain ethnicity. It could be to consolidate power, spread fear, exact vengeance etc etc. If you have a source that supports that it was 'anti-Azerbaijanism', then I'm sure you can add it? And likewise. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)


 * , huh. So, technically, the "2014 Latakia offensive part" of this template is wrong? --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  15:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I dunno and I don't really care tbh, I'm talking about this article, bringing other irrelevant stuff up is just gonna convolute this discussion. I really don't want to investigate everything rn, I just happen to have this article on my watchlist. There's nothing that indicates this massacre was due to hatred against Azeris, unless you have a (reliable) source that states so, that is. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , got it, thanks for the feedback. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  19:21, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Tsitsianov's massacre of the citizens of Ganja was a retaliatory act against Iran's rulers, Ganja's governor/khan, and Ganja's citizens for not surrendering the city. Not a case of "anti-Azerbaijanism". For the record:
 * "After the Russian takeover of Georgia, Russia became even more keen on conquering the rest of Iran's possessions in the Caucasus. General Pavel Dimitriovich Tsitsianov (1754-1806), the new commander of the Russian in the Caucasus, headed for Ganjeh. Contrary to Christian Georgia and Sunni Daghestan, Ganjeh was predominantly Shi'i. Tsitsianov first demanded from Javad Khan Ziyadlu, the governor of Ganjeh, payment to Russia of taxes collected, but the governor and the people opposed this. Next, in December 1803, Tsitsianov ordered an attack on Ganjeh. Ganjeh managed to hold out against the Russian attack but, due to betrayal by a number of locals, it finally fell in January 1804, leading to a bloodbath of the local population and much looting." -- Shahvar, Soli.; Abramoff, Emil. (2018). "The Khan, the Shah and the Tsar: The Khanate of Talesh between Iran and Russia." In Matthee, Rudi.; Andreeva, Elena. Russians in Iran: Diplomacy and Power in the Qajar Era and Beyond. I.B.Tauris. p. 34
 * "Tsitsianov was not even content with the Aras-Kur line as the proposed Russo-Persian border. (...) Tsitsianov's attack on Ganja was a challenge to Abbās Mīrzā, heir to the Persian throne and governor of Āzarbāījān. The capture of the city was accompanied by a massacre in which the Russians killed between 1,500 and 3,000 people. Among the victims were 500 Muslims who had taken refuge in a mosque but were slaughtered as an act of revenge, said Platon Zubov. The town was sacked, its main mosque converted into a church, and its very name obliterated by being changed to Elizavetpol. Thousands of local inhabitants fled to Iran, spreading the news and arousing fear among the Persians. In Tsitsianov's attack on Ganja the Iranians saw a direct invasion of their country's territory. The issue was no longer one of imposing tribute on distant Lezghians or even reasserting Persian suzerainty over Christian Georgia. The integrity of Shī'ī Iran had been violated." -- Kazemzadeh, Firuz (1991). "Iranian telations with Russia and the Soviet Union, to 1921". In Avery, Peter. Hambly, Gavin. Melville, Charles. The Cambridge History of Iran: From Nadir Shah to the Islamic Republic (vol. 7). Cambridge University Press. p. 332


 * Category:Violence against Shia Muslims can be added, per WP:VER and WP:RS. If there are WP:RS sources that verify "anti-Azerbaijanism", by all means, please provide them. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Whilst there are eyes on this article. John F. Baddeley(journalist(not historian), Potto Vasily Alekseevich, both of these should be treated as primary sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Remove this prosperous sentence
However, as Swietochowski notes, the name "Elisabethpol" never found acceptance amongst the Azerbaijanis, who continued to call the town Ganja.[22]

This battle took place in 1803. A group of people calling themselves "Azerbaijanis" took place in the late 1930s.

Who called themselves an Azerbaijani in 1803? Any documents? Poets? Inscriptions? Please? Just one? No? There you go.

Any source from Swietochowski should be banned because most of his nonsense is fictional jibber-jabber.

Sickofthisbs (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The entire article needs to be rewritten from scratch. I'll probably do it myself at some point in the future. The title needs to be renamed as well (as it was a siege, rather than a battle). - LouisAragon (talk) 20:32, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

"Ganja wasn't part of Iran"
WP:RS says otherwise;


 * "After the Russian takeover of Georgia, Russia became even more keen on conquering the rest of Iran's possessions in the Caucasus. General Pavel Dimitriovich Tsitsianov (1754-1806), the new commander of the Russian in the Caucasus, headed for Ganjeh. Contrary to Christian Georgia and Sunni Daghestan, Ganjeh was predominantly Shi'i. Tsitsianov first demanded from Javad Khan Ziyadlu, the governor of Ganjeh, payment to Russia of taxes collected, but the governor and the people opposed this. Next, in December 1803, Tsitsianov ordered an attack on Ganjeh. -- Shahvar, Soli.; Abramoff, Emil. (2018). "The Khan, the Shah and the Tsar: The Khanate of Talesh between Iran and Russia." In Matthee, Rudi.; Andreeva, Elena. Russians in Iran: Diplomacy and Power in the Qajar Era and Beyond''. I.B.Tauris. p. 34


 * "The Treaty of Golestan, concluded with British mediation in October 1813, granted Russia nearly all of the eastern Caucasus north of the river Aras, and Russia annexed the whole of Georgia and southern Caucasian provinces of Baku, Shirvan, Qarabagh, Darband (Derbent), and Ganja. Only Iravan and Nakhijevan remained in Iranian hands." -- Abbas Amanat (2017), Iran: A Modern History, Yale University Press, p. 195.


 * "Realizing the strategic value of the region after the loss of Karabagh, Ganjeh, and Georgia, Fath-'Ali Shah, 'Abbas Mirza (the commander of the Iranian forces), and Hosein Qoli Khan Qajar (the new governor of Yerevan) decided to work (...)" -- The Armenians of Iran: The Paradoxical Role of a Minority in a Dominant Culture ; Articles and Documents, Cosroe Chaquèri, Center for Middle Eastern Studies of Harvard University (1998), page 68.


 * "Even when rulers on the plateau lacked the means to effect suzerainty beyond the Aras, the neighboring Khanates were still regarded as Iranian dependencies. (...) Agha Muhammad Khan, as proof of his suzerainty over them, had minted gold and silver coins in Erivan, and silver ones in Ganja, Nukha (the capital of Shakki), and Shamikha (the capital of Shirvan), just as he had done in Yazd, Isfahan or Tabriz. There was nothing peculiar in this: he regarded them all, as the Safavids and Nadir Shah had done, as Iranian cities. Fath Ali Shah did the same. Before the outbreak of war with Russia in 1804, he struck gold and silver coins at the Erivan and Ganja mints, and silver ones at Nukha." -- p. 146, Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 7


 * "Serious historians and geographers agree that after the fall of the Safavids, and especially from the mid-eighteenth century, the territory of the South Caucasus was composed of the khanates of Ganja, Kuba, Shirvan, Baku, Talesh, Sheki, Karabagh, Nakhichivan and Yerevan, all of which were under Iranian suzerainty." -- Bournoutian, George A. (2016). The 1820 Russian Survey of the Khanate of Shirvan: A Primary Source on the Demography and Economy of an Iranian Province prior to its Annexation by Russia. Gibb Memorial Trust. p. xvii.


 * "The Persian shah was obliged to recognize the sovereignty of the tsar over Georgia, Mingrelia, Abkhazia, Ganja, Qarābāḡ, Qobba, Darband, Baku, Dāḡestān, Šakki, and other territories (Article 3). This not only reflected the Persian loss of sovereignty in the Caucasus, but also undercut Ottoman claims to some of these territories" -- Elton L. Daniel (2001), Iranica


 * "In January 1804 Russian forces under General Paul Tsitsianov (Sisianoff) invade Persia and storm the citadel of Ganjeh, beginning the Russo-Persian War (1804–1813)." -- Tucker, Spencer C., ed. (2010). A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East


 * "It is important to note, however, that despite the unfounded claims of some Azeri historians, there was no united anti-Iranian movement, nor any regional, ethnic, or national identity, or plans for an independent state. The short-lived efforts of King Erekle II, Ebrahim Khan of Qarabagh, and Fath ʿAli Khan of Qobbeh to establish total hegemony over the South Caucasus all ended in failure. Such assertions have become more common among Azeri historians after 1989; for example, see, Dzh. M. Mustafaev, Severnye khanstva Azerbaidzhana i Rossiia (Baku, 1989) and E. Babaev, Iz istorii giandzhinskogo khanstva (Baku, 2003). In fact, after Stalin’s failure to annex Iranian Azarbayjan in 1946, Soviet historians not only proclaimed that the khanates were never part of Iran and were independent entities, but began (and have continued to do so after 1991) to refer to Iranian Azarbayjan as south Azerbaijan, which had been separated from north Azerbaijan, see V. Leviatov, Ocherki iz istorii Azerbaidzhana v XVIII veke (Baku, 1948). Such absurd notions are completely negated by Article III of the Golestan Treaty and Article I of the treaties between Russia and the khans of Qarabagh, Shakki and Shirvan; see Appendix 4." -- Bournoutian, George (2021). "Georgia and the Khanates of South Caucasus in the Second Half of the Eighteenth Century" in From the Kur to the Aras: A Military History of Russia’s Move into the South Caucasus and the First Russo-Iranian War, 1801-1813. Brill. p. 249 (note 4)

--HistoryofIran (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

No any of these sources say that the khanate was a part of Persian state. It was the vassal state. And we have WP:RS saying that:
 * Russia in the Nineteenth Century. Volume II of The History of Russia. Edited by M. V. Nechkina. 1953. P. 52: The khanates of Eastern Transcaucasia were in part semi-independent state structures and in part vassals of Iran, for instance the Khanate of Erevan, which had grown up on the territory of Armenia, or of Georgia, such as the Khanate of Ganja in Azerbaijan.


 * Bournoutian, George A. (2016). The 1820 Russian Survey of the Khanate of Shirvan: A Primary Source on the Demography and Economy of an Iranian Province prior to its Annexation by Russia. Gibb Memorial Trust. p. xvii. ISBN 978-1909724808. Serious historians and geographers agree that after the fall of the Safavids, and especially from the mid-eighteenth century, the territory of the South Caucasus was composed of the khanates of Ganja, Kuba, Shirvan, Baku, Talesh, Sheki, Karabagh, Nakhichivan and Yerevan, all of which were under Iranian suzerainty.

The battle of Ganja was not a battle between Russia and Persia. It was the battle between Russia and Ganja khatate, vassal state of Persia. --Interfase (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Per above, WP:RS unanimously refers to Ganja as part of Iran, no different than Zanjan or other places. Denying that is more or less WP:JDL. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Per above, WP:RS refers to Ganja as vassal sate of Iran, not a part of Iran. Denying that is more or less WP:JDL. --Interfase (talk) 15:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that there is literal cited information that contradicts you and yet you keep repeating the same thing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Please carefully read the cited information above provided by me on 15:23, 10 May 2022. Interfase (talk) 15:43, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, what about it? Perhaps you should actually consider paying attention to the numerous sources up above instead of ignoring it? (WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, WP:JDLI). There's no denying WP:RS. I think we're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Numerous sources up above do not say that the Ganja was a part of Iran. But several sources above clearly say that it was vassal of Iran. For you information "vassal of" and "part of" are different things. Why you still ignore it? (WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, WP:JDLI) Interfase (talk) 15:54, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Banner of Ganja khanate
This banner was a banner of Ganja khanate captured by Russians in 1804. It is loacated in Museum of Hustory of Azerbaijan. There is an article of historian Dr. Parvin Gezalov «Знамёна Гянджинского ханства в геральдических параллеляхсо знаменами Османской империи» in Russian saying that (page 21). Why this banner is deleted and why this information appears as "revionism" to you? --Interfase (talk) 15:29, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Because stuff such as this exists . We need proof from a reliable source. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)